SLIs-ISTps and suggestive Ne

[Hope]

Your thoughts or experience on how Ne suggestive is manifested in SLIs (besides liking Ne people which is too obvious).

[Rebelondeck]

SLIs are not noted for considering consequence or the big picture and they often leap before they look, metaphorically speaking because they're usually very safety conscious. Because they're rather good at winging it, they tend to look more broadly only when under stress or things have gone bad - but even then, they don't seem to look long enough because latching onto the quickest solution is typical for them. When they happen upon broad insight, they do seem to innately value it though it may not have any practical use for them. I use the words "happen upon" because normally they don't seem that interested in looking beyond a narrow range of interests or their immediate field of view; but they can easily be led outside.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Exodus]

I've described it as "the need for novelty and worldliness (problem: being in a constant "slump" or rut)"

Also, SLIs are often unambitious when it comes to learning and self-improvement. They are content with being "normal people".

[consentingadult]

Another aspect of SLIs Suggestive Ne, is that they know a lot of things (Si+Te), but they do not have a Grand Narrative where everything comes together, like IEEs and ILEs do.

[Cosmic Teapot]

I've described it as "the need for novelty and worldliness (problem: being in a constant "slump" or rut)"

Also, SLIs are often unambitious when it comes to learning and self-improvement. They are content with being "normal people".

I've read and seen conflicting examples of how SLIs relate to self-improvement.
On the one hand the EIE-SLI-Strat. description is a tale of "mediocre and lazy SLIs are a nightmare for EIEs" and on the other hand the IEE-SLI-Strat. description puts emphasis on how both types like to distinguish themselves through indivuality, improvement and talents.

ime
a female SLI friend of mine didn't finish high school and doesn't do anything improve her situation
another friend has a IEE gf only took his studies seriously when she told him to get his shit together. Only then did he do his best. (She, IEE, is extremely success oriented. Masters Degree, half a year abroad, working on her Phd ...)

How does that relate to your own experiences?

[Hope]

I've read and seen conflicting examples of how SLIs realte to self-improvement.
On the one hand the EIE-SLI-Strat. description is a tale of "mediocre and lazy SLIs are a nightmare for EIEs" and on the other hand the IEE-SLI-Strat. description puts emphasis on how both types like to destinguish themselves through indivuality, improvement and talents.

ime
a female SLI friend of mine didn't finish high school and doesn't do anything improve her situation
another friend has a IEE gf only took his studies seriously when she told him to get his shit together. Only then did he do his best. (She, IEE, is extremely success oriented. Masters Degree, half a year abroad, working on her Phd ...)

How does that relate to your own experiences?

Honestly I wonder where are you seeing too much mediocrity/improvement related issues in Strat SLI-whoever descriptions. Seems a misconception.

I've never met an IEE who's keen to school or any too Ti environment btw. Its seems hard for them to fit in for too long and have the wish and long for persist in too limited and structured environments (Te>Ti). SLIs are not very different, that's what Strat is describing in EIE-SLI, where EIE wait for persistent hard working (Se>Si) LSI but instead, gets SLI who's low spirited, inscrutable but at the same time too critical, unable to express and appreciate emotions and not very interested in get a rational style of living to be a supportive partner in the way EIE needs (j). In the case of IEE/SLI, the description centers entirely in courtship and seduction games, infantile/caregiver aristocratic dichotomy.

The SLI not being interested in self improvement seems a wrong understanding of what SLI does. That's also against Quadra Values.

The confluence of predominating aspects assigns the following properties to the Delta Quadra:
- boundless perfection of one's skills, pursuit of the highest (beyond the bounds, even other-wordly), professionalism (+Te↑);
- unlimited expansion of allowable opportunities, pursuit of transcendent possibilities (-Ne↑);
- constant renewal and updates to sphere of interests; renovation and expansion of one's habitat ("resettlement programs"); aspirations for out-of-bounds spaces (-Si↑);
- perfection in the area of ethical interactions; the pursuit of the highest spirituality to the otherworldly dream of "peace and cloudless happiness for all mankind" (+Fi↑).

I also suggest to look up for your type in Gamma or Alpha.

What's improvement for one quadra is mediocrity for another. That seems to be missing in some of this thread comments.

[Exodus]

I've read and seen conflicting examples of how SLIs relate to self-improvement.
On the one hand the EIE-SLI-Strat. description is a tale of "mediocre and lazy SLIs are a nightmare for EIEs" and on the other hand the IEE-SLI-Strat. description puts emphasis on how both types like to distinguish themselves through indivuality, improvement and talents.

ime
a female SLI friend of mine didn't finish high school and doesn't do anything improve her situation
another friend has a IEE gf only took his studies seriously when she told him to get his shit together. Only then did he do his best. (She, IEE, is extremely success oriented. Masters Degree, half a year abroad, working on her Phd ...)

How does that relate to your own experiences?

We can succeed at the suggestive function, although the overall tendency is to neglect it.

I know an SLI who was essentially a lazy stoner and neglected his education, but later managed to turn his life around and succeed academically. As far as I know this was self-motivated.

[consentingadult]

...On the one hand the EIE-SLI-Strat. description is a tale of "mediocre and lazy SLIs are a nightmare for EIEs"...

That funny, because I personally think LSIs (my conflictors) are lazy. If there is a type whom I have heard saying "that is not my task" as a way of avoiding work when they are already certain of their paycheck, it's LSIs.

Well, I guess it aint what you do, it's the way that you do it, and all the quadras are different in that respect.

[Rebelondeck]

That funny, because I personally think LSIs (my conflictors) are lazy. If there is a type whom I have heard saying "that is not my task" as a way of avoiding work when they are already certain of their paycheck, it's LSIs.....

All types can be lazy in their own ways. LSIs certainly aren't lazy when one obtains true buy-in from them; however it can be a challenge to get buy-in from Ips in general. SLIs do seem to want to do it their way, usually in the most direct route possible and to their standards - not someone else's, which can be a real source of conflict. They do seem to resent being muddied by the incompetence or screw-ups of others so they will often spout versions of your quote. Some can be superb leaders but their management skills tend to leave a lot to be desired.

a.k.a. I/O

[consentingadult]

All types can be lazy in their own ways. LSIs certainly aren't lazy when one obtains true buy-in from them; however it can be a challenge to get buy-in from Ips in general. SLIs do seem to want to do it their way, usually in the most direct route possible and to their standards - not someone else's, which can be a real source of conflict. They do seem to resent being muddied by the incompetence or screw-ups of others so they will often spout versions of your quote. Some can be superb leaders but their management skills tend to leave a lot to be desired.

a.k.a. I/O

That basically what I said to in my line:

Well, I guess it aint what you do, it's the way that you do it, and all the quadras are different in that respect.

That being said, and to generalize what you said: the major difference here is the result orientation of Te/Fi types and the effort orientation (or Process-orientation as Reinin calls it) of Ti/Fe types. In matters of work ethics, this can be a great source of conflict between Alpha/Beta quadras on the one hand, and Gamma/Delta quadras on the other hand.

Just yesterday evening I was waiting in line for my turn at Burger King. Two young ladies, one LSI and the other IEI, where serving customers completely at their own pace, with this air of 'I'm certainly going to do things at my own discretion and pace' hanging around them, meanwhile taking all the time to chit-chat with each other and the other employees, the queues getting longer and longer in the meantime. If I had been manager of that BK, I would have fired them on the spot.

Typically company cultures, if given the time, develop along the line of the quadra type's of people employed, i.e. after a period of time employee selection favors the managent's quadra types. I have seen Delta teams fall apart after e.g. an LSE manager had been replaced by an SLE manager. Not that the SLE was a bad person, but had different ideas about how to manage (LSE managers typically work alongside their employees, whereas SLE managers often take a more hierarchical approach to division of labor). I can imagine Beta teams falling apart just as well when an LSE is put in charge of them.

[Adam Strange]

That basically what I said to in my line:



That being said, and to generalize what you said: the major difference here is the result orientation of Te/Fi types and the effort orientation (or Process-orientation as Reinin calls it) of Ti/Fe types. In matters of work ethics, this can be a great source of conflict between Alpha/Beta quadras on the one hand, and Gamma/Delta quadras on the other hand.

Just yesterday evening I was waiting in line for my turn at Burger King. Two young ladies, one LSI and the other IEI, where serving customers completely at their own pace, with this air of 'I'm certainly going to do things at my own discretion and pace' hanging around them, meanwhile taking all the time to chit-chat with each other and the other employees, the queues getting longer and longer in the meantime. If I had been manager of that BK, I would have fired them on the spot.

Typically company cultures, if given the time, develop along the line of the quadra type's of people employed, i.e. after a period of time employee selection favors the managent's quadra types. I have seen Delta teams fall apart after e.g. an LSE manager had been replaced by an SLE manager. Not that the SLE was a bad person, but had different ideas about how to manage (LSE managers typically work alongside their employees, whereas SLE managers often take a more hierarchical approach to division of labor). I can imagine Beta teams falling apart just as well when an LSE is put in charge of them.

The bolded part above is absolutely true. This is the primary reason why mergers and acquisitions between two companies with different Quadral cultures fail.

In my opinion, it is also the reason a manager can be a golden-haired genius at one company and a disastrous failure at another. He now has to work through a different team, and that team isn't his team.

I've had a lot of experience working in and for dozens of companies, and a lot of them were start-ups. The key thing in a start-up is to choose the right people. In my opinion, that means choosing people in your quadra so you have similar values, along with some key personnel from other quadras who can bring in talent and skills that your quadra lacks. But, the important thing is to first establish a coherently working group before bringing in people with other values, because if they are brought in too soon and given too much influence, they can derail the original vision.

It is often the case that the original vision is not worth keeping, but then you have a different company, which probably needs different people to run it.

*EDIT*
Just to return this thread to its original track, I should add that I (LIE) and my SLI ex-wife formed a terrific business team. She was steady, hard-working, sensible and reliable, and I made (usually) careful and profitable gambles. She seemed perfectly content to stick to her steady job and contribute a low but reliable stream of income to the family, while I went out and worked hard at a lot of different things and invested a lot of money and effort in ventures that sometimes failed but sometimes succeeded very well.

I basically took very high-paying consulting jobs which did not have enough hours to support the family at first, but eventually grew larger and larger. The money from these jobs was invested in starting companies. Two failed because I didn't have a clue about what I was doing (and had out-of-quadra partners), and one succeeded to the point where it brings in multiples of our old combined salaries.

Quite frankly, I could not have done this without her help and support, because my parents were Delta lifer employees and taught me nothing about entrepreneurship, while her father owned a large, successful company and so she was willing to let me run around doing crazy things, because she knew about frugality and eventual payoffs.

[Hope]

Wow, someone saying something genuine and true instead of sharing another old prejudiced stereotype. Thanks for your contribution @consentingadult, I'd like to ask about your opinion/experience with quadras in family dynamics? Do you think it works similarily as in work teams?
Do you think certain level of unhealthiness/immaturity can arise from being raised at a home with different quadra values or how do you think it affects the individual?

About what you was saying, I totally agree, I actually think thats how beta quadra manifest their complex of subservience, its like saying "yes, I'm working here still things are going to be done according my own will, not according the needs/comfort of clients/other ppl (Si) etc because I'm not an slave". I don't see them as necessarily lazy, I see them purposefuly resisting to fall into a low category (acting caring Si is fall in low category that category according Se, since in a beta quadra taking care in Si way results in slavery/you'll be converted in cinderella ).

[myresearch]

I think SLIs are into self-improvement. They view self-improvement as a thing that could be observed and established from external point of view. For example, they could get lots of certificates or they can suggest that to others. They believe that people can improve themselves but they don't believe they can change in a massive way. They enjoy listening different points of view and ideas, they also like to generate their unique perspective and idea about something. However, they don't take those ideas and perspectives seriously if it hasn't proven to work before.

I am curious of ESI's point of view regarding SLI's Ne both in short term and long term.

[myresearch]

@BOT This isn't related to the thread but here I go. My IEE friend was our highschool valedictorian. She graduated from the best medical university in our country. She always took school seriously. I think school isn't a Ti environment.

[consentingadult]

Wow, someone saying something genuine and true instead of sharing another old prejudiced stereotype. Thanks for your contribution @consentingadult, I'd like to ask about your opinion/experience with quadras in family dynamics? Do you think it works similarily as in work teams?
Do you think certain level of unhealthiness/immaturity can arise from being raised at a home with different quadra values or how do you think it affects the individual?

About what you was saying, I totally agree, I actually think thats how beta quadra manifest their complex of subservience, its like saying "yes, I'm working here still things are going to be done according my own will, not according the needs/comfort of clients/other ppl (Si) etc because I'm not an slave". I don't see them as necessarily lazy, I see them purposefuly resisting to fall into a low category (acting caring Si is fall in low category that category according Se, since in a beta quadra taking care in Si way results in slavery/you'll be converted in cinderella ).

It doesn't necessarily work the same in families, because other aspects are at work as well, since as, as you mention, immaturity issues, but sometimes more importantly, differences in intelligence or talents. Being in the same quadra usually suffices to work together, but being emotionally and intellectual intimacy also requires factors beyond Socionics to work well.

And yes, I do think being brought up in a family of incompatible quadra values can bring about immaturity issues, for growing up in such a situation does not only require you to survive using talents you do not have, you will also be inclined to repeat such maladapted behavior when being an adult, constantly putting your focus on incompatible people. I wrote a poem about that, in Ducth, but translated it goes like this:

Shame

it was me
blind, biased
moralistic

always a different
perspective, always
knowing better
poisonous and bitter

and not noticing those
in whose hands
I should have rested my soul
and there were many
of those

I'm sorry

My GF had a talk with a female LSE friend of hers (my SEI GF seems to have a lot of Delta friends, which in itself means something significant), who said there has been no-one in her life that put her on the top of her list. To which I replied "perhaps whe is not giving anyone a chance to put her on the top of their list". This is what growing up in a wrong quadra can do to a person: it makes you blind to the people that can truly be good to you.

[consentingadult]

@consentingadult,

Process types are: ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII
and Result types are: ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE, SLI

Well, first of all, I think Reinin is a load of BS, but I was not really talking about Reinin dichotomies (only using the terminology), but about the contractual business principles of "obligation to effort" and "obligation to result", and how these principles can be translated to psychological attitudes, very much like locus of control attitudes.

That being said, types such as LSEs are more inclined towards micromanagement than SLIs. But an LSE who micromanages their employees are usually not very much in control. ESIs are know to be control freaks as well, but in my experience when they completely trust your business skills, they very much let you go and do your thing.

[Hope]

@BOT This isn't related to the thread but here I go. My IEE friend was our highschool valedictorian. She graduated from the best medical university in our country. She always took school seriously. I think school isn't a Ti environment.

You are actually right. Just that there is not much pragmatism (Te) in school system actually. The way school system is constructed is basically going in to sit down and read or hear someone explaining things to you for several years, and often is based in repetition and theoretical memorization, instead of being based in for example field practice and learning hands on in the real world and factual simplification of information.

So, its true that school is not necessarily a Ti environment, but I think its a closed system that is based in rules and theory (Ti) over pragmatism (Te).

Truth is, that I've met for example, ILEs that have problems in finishing school, and LIEs that are keen to it and come back to school a lot during their life to get more masters and degrees. Maybe its more a thing of rationality(p) vs rationality (j).

[vesstheastralsilky]

Your thoughts or experience on how Ne suggestive is manifested in SLIs (besides liking Ne people which is too obvious).

I'm going to speculate here and suggest that perhaps they are constantly changing relationships over the years according to who is likely to help them reach their goals and get ahead. But if not people it might simply be valuesets or "causes".

I concoct this theory analytically wrt my own Ne alleged suggestive function based on the fact that as Ne working under Ti not Fi, I have had wayyyyyyyyyyy too many job titles and work task responsibilities for someone my age. (I've also already diligently worked hard enough to retire compared to how much most people expend in efforts yet am financially bearing the status of almost a child). I look at this as jobs offering new goals to be achieved all the time in New methods and I'm too selfless to say no .... So for SLI instead of goals and skills/tactical messes, it is more like goals and people/subjective values messes that may manifest as scattered when viewing ones history over decades of time.

[myresearch]

I guess it depends where you look at it. I agree that school environments are generally not based on pragmatism, it doesn't teach you things that you can directly use in real life. I also think it is a closed system, however, I think I wouldn't say that it isn't based on factual information. Some subjects rely more on theoretical memorization and some subjects rely more on factual information. I wouldn't choose Ti over Te or vice versa for a school environment. However, I think Te would be more interested in getting good grades than Ti because it is an external goal and it is more pragmatic.

Back to the topic, I was and still am curious about ESI's point of view about SLI's Ne because I think there is a chance that beneficiary can notice the use of his/her benefactor's suggestive function much more clearly than other types.

[lkdhf qkb]

Their suggestive is Ne+ while I have Ne- as dominant function, so they are more oriented towards quantity than quality. To me, some can become stuck on binging on cheap/low quality Ne entertainment VS really opening their horizons: reality shows, video games, bad puns/memes and such VS literature, science, self-study, intellectual exploration. I have a SLI-N friend and he can spend his whole weekend playing over and over again the same video game. I would become crazy...


The good side of their suggestive is that once something has caught their interest, they'll search, search, search until they know everything. My interests are more shallow in comparison. I'd like the opinion of a Ne+ dom on the question tho... @Heretic 007? (damn how do you tag someone?)

[The Reality Denialist]

@lkdhf qkb
^Sounds like SLI wants to gain full understanding of logical qualities.

What I see on myself is that plunge into something and I can be there years on end finding new shiny things. My mind is very synthetic.

[Lord Pixel]

Finds every pun funny, lol. No but seriously.

[Fuzzy]

I've described it as "the need for novelty and worldliness (problem: being in a constant "slump" or rut)"

Also, SLIs are often unambitious when it comes to learning and self-improvement. They are content with being "normal people".

facts

[Hope]

Their suggestive is Ne+ while I have Ne- as dominant function, so they are more oriented towards quantity than quality. To me, some can become stuck on binging on cheap/low quality Ne entertainment VS really opening their horizons: reality shows, video games, bad puns/memes and such VS literature, science, self-study, intellectual exploration. I have a SLI-N friend and he can spend his whole weekend playing over and over again the same video game. I would become crazy...


The good side of their suggestive is that once something has caught their interest, they'll search, search, search until they know everything. My interests are more shallow in comparison. I'd like the opinion of a Ne+ dom on the question tho... @Heretic 007? (damn how do you tag someone?)

Interesting, I know IEE N who seem to enjoy as bad quality Ne entertainment as intellectual good quality Ne. I bet that SLI playing over and over is due N.

Yeah, I do the same resaearch thing often.

[myresearch]

Their suggestive is Ne+ while I have Ne- as dominant function, so they are more oriented towards quantity than quality. To me, some can become stuck on binging on cheap/low quality Ne entertainment VS really opening their horizons: reality shows, video games, bad puns/memes and such VS literature, science, self-study, intellectual exploration. I have a SLI-N friend and he can spend his whole weekend playing over and over again the same video game. I would become crazy...


The good side of their suggestive is that once something has caught their interest, they'll search, search, search until they know everything. My interests are more shallow in comparison. I'd like the opinion of a Ne+ dom on the question tho... @Heretic 007? (damn how do you tag someone?)

SLI's suggestive has the same sign with IEE's base function, maybe you are referring to another model.

[Hope]

Supposedly this is model A. But I saw Gulenko changing the signs a lot.

[lkdhf qkb]

There are different definitions of signs, I go by the one of Eglit and Gulenko:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...unctions-Eglit

the associated signs are on this post by Hitta:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...with-the-signs

[lkdhf qkb]

Thanks Tommy!

Ne+ makes sense for them anyway from what I observed. I have this SLI friend who was searching for a job until recently, and each time he had a good feeling about an interview, he was telling people that he got the job. He even wanted to drive there to show me the place where "he would be working". It's like he couldn't see it not happening(Ne-). I always had to tell him to not overinvest himself mentally and to hedge his bets by looking for alternatives.

[Metaphor]

Hmmmm, to-the-point of Ne suggestive function.

They need an advice of "what's going on" because without specific details and orders, they'd easily get lost, yep, that's it.
They can be motivated by others, but it needs time, they need to do a self-mentoring if they wanted to reach the best version of themselves.

[14Raptor19]

I want to forge a skyline mountaintop as sharp as My butcher with a cobweb hacked and glistening with torrents of wise turtle ancient teachings.


I thoughts that ISTPs like to hasten the run of crazy bazooka blasting and nerd wars of the threads to pin missile weaponry. ISTPs like tools of destruction, like Darth Maul was probably SLI.

[aixelsyd]

I like having a positive worldview that transcends the details of everyday living. In other words, I seek out such philosophies which sort of reconcile spirituality and science and carries the narrative that everyone is working on their own spiritual growth and unlocking of potential via one's own unique path.
My wife has similar views but sees more of the negative possibilities out there. For instance, she notices more the friction occurring between common ideas such as related to vaccines, masks, diet, and so on and so forth.

So I guess I try to look for more +Ne whereas she sees more of the -Ne. I wonder when positivist types receive information from negativist duals that they transmute the negative IMs into positive IMs and vice-versa with the negativist dual transmuting positives IMs from positivist duals. I imagine this would help to establish a balance and help each other have a better or more objective grasp on reality.

For instance, I notice she focuses more on negative sensations whereas I try to highlight the positive aspects of an environment. Like, she focuses on diet in terms of how eating processed foods and the like make people dumber and sicker whereas I am more likely to mention how eating greens and healthier foods makes me feel lighter and more energetic. She looks more at preventing sickness whereas I am thinking more in terms of promoting well-being. We are more or less working towards the same goal and talking about the same thing but from different places of emphasis but it works out.

[persimmonism]

They just get very excited when you open an avenue for them to experience something they're not used to at all. They're actually quite openminded if you insist excitedly and just make them try it.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

They go for the manic pixie dream girl.

[nifl]

Interest in new, exotic, obscure, strange things - will try many different things, curiosity is a main driver and the spice of their lives - they like to gather surface-level information about many different things which interest them, as they are Te types (gathering information, data is a primary operation) and Ne-valuing types (driven by interest, curiosity, intellectual stimulation in these veins). LSE, EII are more stable, less often change their focus. They are similar to IEE in this regard, but have comparatively less eye for possibilities, the fantastic, new and strange, but comparatively more nose for what is correct, factual and what is incorrect, understanding data and factual reality, scientific research
Have sort of a naive, childlike fascination with immaterial properties, such as the meanings of words, the essences of people and ideas etc.