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Thread: Differentiating Te vs Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    I could see why Ni+Te could be termed ‘advanced’. But, going by the workings of Ni en Beta, ants should have Ni. Si thrives when stability is reached, and nature is not kind. IEs are not that linear with humans and they paint 'epochs' in terms of what is advanced.
    Irrational functions simply perceive what's happening, either on the inside or on the outside. Rational functions are founded on reason. It's a more developed kind of mental activity. I don't have the exact source now, but it might have been "Psychological types".

    Like Si for example, it simply perceives the impressions that the psyche produces. That's all.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I completely agree, but lots of people experience great difficulty reading Jung. I remember some of the Germans saying there was much lost in translation and it was even difficult for them to read in the original German. It has to be understood intuitively which is also difficult for many people. Especially those who claim to have no intuition.
    I find him to be mostly very clear and concrete but the information is extremely compressed and some things in in Psychological types is extremely introverted, but not necessarily intuitive. Jung has to be read in the old fashioned way: You need the book, then a pen and then you read slowly and underline stuff and make notes in the margin. The you read it again. It's very easy to accidentally jump over a sentence or side clause that clarifies things.

    Often he puts psychic material right in front of you, and then it is important to actually look at it and not use intuition and think of something else.

    I type Jung LII and I think a lot has to do with how well a person can understand that type and his reasoning. It's also a matter of how able the reader is to relate to introverted phenomena.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Irrational functions simply perceive what's happening, either on the inside or on the outside. Rational functions are founded on reason. It's a more developed kind of mental activity. I don't have the exact source now, but it might have been "Psychological types".
    We all know about rational and irrational in socionics. But you become focused on definitions instead of asking why people are not being born all rationals, why nature keeps juggling rationals and irrationals. If you go down that rabbit hole I see you insinuate sometimes, you’ll end up lionizing 1400s citadels as the prime example of rationality and intuition. That is primitive for me.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Why is Fe more associated with bullying than Se? I thought Se was associated with impulsion and Fe associated with putting yourself in people's shoes. Do you see a lot more EIE bullies in comparison to SLE bullies IRL?
    Fe is judgment function and is in concerned with controlling of the emotional atmosphere, and that is where “image” falls in. Bullying is actually an Fe thing, it’s controlling how the room feels based on how you manipulated the people in the room to feel. It’s Fi that is putting yourself in other people’s shoes and it’s due to empathy that creates bonds. Se is perception, reactions to the physical environment, not judgment.

    Irl, yeah there would be more EIE than SLE bullies (Se leads are not common) because they’re weak with Se (but value it) but super strong with Fe so they will manipulate the emotional atmosphere and conjure up an act to push people into feeling a certain way and that “makes” people do what the EIE wants them to do. Everyday example would be Karens. They flip out over simple facts that they can’t accept like why Starbucks don’t serve candycane lattes served during May or why they’re charged extra for their many modifications on food orders. Se bases know right away the reality and respond accordingly (as in no reaction). Keep in mind, when people huff and puff playing up their “toughness” that’s peacocking and trying to scare others. That’s what Fe is, idle threats. This is indicative of weak Se because they don’t have ability to scale how much pressure is enough so they either go overboard and look clownish or not at all.

    To get a better understanding, I suggest you read about EIE H i t l e r, because he used Fe theatrics to make even his generals fear him. Watch the documentary on The Real Antony and Cleopatra https://tubitv.com/video/472215 EIE Cleopatra was perhaps one of the greatest showman in history. Cleopatra heavily relied upon her “powerful” image projection but couldn’t be bothered to kill off her enemies and had SEE Caesar and SLE Antony do it. Fe base is constantly concerned with their image and will fight to keep it. Se base is perceiving factual reality and responding to it accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    If a person were to look through your post history to determine your type, what things would determine Se > Te?

    We can get cute with the fancy definitions but if we can't come to agreement (in real life situations) which is which and what is more dominant over the other - it's all useless
    What I said is pretty plain. It sounds to me like you’re trying to get me to reveal how I’m Se base and that’s not my job nor concern. I already adequately responded to you and if you can’t understand then that’s your problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    Fe is judgment function and is in concerned with controlling of the emotional atmosphere, and that is where “image” falls in. Bullying is actually an Fe thing, it’s controlling how the room feels based on how you manipulated the people in the room to feel. It’s Fi that is putting yourself in other people’s shoes and it’s due to empathy that creates bonds. Se is perception, reactions to the physical environment, not judgment.
    I don't get that impression when I picture the jock bully giving the nerd a dirty sanchez or making quick witted comments about the nerd's broken duct tape glasses.

    Bullying can be divorced of Fe

    Irl, yeah there would be more EIE than SLE bullies (Se leads are not common) because they’re weak with Se (but value it) but super strong with Fe so they will manipulate the emotional atmosphere and conjure up an act to push people into feeling a certain way and that “makes” people do what the EIE wants them to do
    .

    Wtf? Lol. Sounds more like brainwashing/mind-control than direct bullying.

    SLE has Se with low Fi. EIE humanitarians aren't going to be bullies in general. Lets be realistic here

    Everyday example would be Karens. They flip out over simple facts that they can’t accept like why Starbucks don’t serve candycane lattes served during May or why they’re charged extra for their many modifications on food orders. Se bases know right away the reality and respond accordingly (as in no reaction). Keep in mind, when people huff and puff playing up their “toughness” that’s peacocking and trying to scare others.
    Flipping out and crying is emotional manipulation, not bullying. Much like a baby crying because they didn't get to eat their ice-cream.

    Bullying involves direct confrontation.

    SLE/SEE- Jersey Shore Cast.

    Watch Snooky start a confrontation:


    "Get your Fuc*in ugly ass out of my face"
    "WHO ARE YOU? IT'S NOT FOR YOU, GO AWAY!!"

    I don't even need to explain...

    That’s what Fe is, idle threats. This is indicative of weak Se because they don’t have ability to scale how much pressure is enough so they either go overboard and look clownish or not at all.
    Fe is idle threats, (aka not actual bullying) whereas Se is sizing up reality and applying direct pressure, often impulsively = bullying.

    To get a better understanding, I suggest you read about EIE H i t l e r, because he used Fe theatrics to make even his generals fear him. Watch the documentary on The Real Antony and Cleopatra https://tubitv.com/video/472215 EIE Cleopatra was perhaps one of the greatest showman in history. Cleopatra heavily relied upon her “powerful” image projection but couldn’t be bothered to kill off her enemies and had SEE Caesar and SLE Antony do it. Fe base is constantly concerned with their image and will fight to keep it. Se base is perceiving factual reality and responding to it accordingly.
    Hmm. We probably have different views on what bullying is/entails. Cult leaders use Fe to swing the emotional economy in their favor - not really bullying
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 12-24-2020 at 04:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
    What I said is pretty plain. It sounds to me like you’re trying to get me to reveal how I’m Se base and that’s not my job nor concern. I already adequately responded to you and if you can’t understand then that’s your problem.
    It's okay if you don't know
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 12-24-2020 at 12:50 AM.

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    These descriptions are crap. And badly translated. And prepetuating a bucket of stereotypes.

    Some EIEs are really horrible. Some SxE are nice. It just depends on the actual person.

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    Honestly? Some of the most annoying, manipulative people who seek attention are genuinely EIE and not SEE, like some people seem to think. And no, SEE aren't the most serious Gammas. Those are the ones with a stick up their arse. Some SEE are genuinely pretty chill people. You just have had bad experiences in the past. Or are severly deficient in Se, aka Se PoLR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAD View Post
    ........manipulative people who seek attention are genuinely EIE and not SEE........
    EIEs do seem to actively seek attention while SEEs just love being in the thick of things. The need for attention may appear the same to third parties but the motivation is often quite different. SEEs may be manipulative for interest sake or a thrill while EIEs do it for control and to get what they want in more of a deliberate, tactical sense. SEEs can be somewhat strategic but seem to like the excitement of random outcomes so simply stirring the pot to see what happens is their usual approach, where EIEs like getting their way - they'll win with guile if nothing else.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Okay, while we are on the subject, something that I have been thinking for a long time now is that the Se descriptions are broken. Jung, as was already posted on this thread, clearly makes Se out to be the MBIT Se, sensations. The Se that socionics presents is basically bullying. Obviously, if anybody dealt with some type of bully, they will just assume that was an Se ego type.

    I personally think it was because Aušra Augustinavičiūtė and many of the other developers of socionics were Se devaluing and thus understood Se wrong. On the other hand, Jung is almost always thought to be a ILI or IEI, so he viewed Se in others, more or less, positively.

    In my personal experience, with ex GF, friends and my father, Se lead people are much more like the Jung MBIT description, than the socionics bullies. Bullying comes from some other function or motivation than wanting to take in experiences. An SLE may bully, but similar to the other idea being discussed, it probably comes from him being insecure about how others view him and unsure about how to fix that to his liking ( weak and valued Fe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chillaxe View Post
    ....... that the Se descriptions are broken. Jung, as was already posted on this thread, clearly makes Se out to be the MBIT Se, sensations. The Se that socionics presents is basically bullying.....
    Both Socionics and MBTI make the same mistake by assigning specific outcomes to a single aspect of an information processing system. There's really no difference between Se and Si except for configuration. The difference between S and N is essentially a data filter (a data reduction mechanism) that is applied after acquisition because identical information is input to the sensors (eyes, ears, etc.). I have no idea how an output process, Te, could be in any way confused with an input process, Se, especially when the configurations in which they're employed are so different; treating IEs like 8 bins of different stuff is probably where such confusion may originate.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Socionics said Napoleon is ESxP, but reading stories about the man, I feel like he is more of a ENTJ. Despite growing up in religion, he always believes in science and has great respect for the scientists, an only see religion as an important tool - Te Ni all the way.

    His Si polr is obvious, Hitl** also made the same mistakes because of weak and devalued Si. By lacking the ability to focus on detail, they both overestimate their resources.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 12-26-2020 at 11:24 AM.

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    More thoughts;

    Se Examples:

    --Give off a Nickelodean-energy or anime vibe
    --Intense awareness of how/when to respond to motion
    --Can seize opportunities other may miss
    --Respond rapidly to crisis situations that would otherwise paralyze others
    --Perform amazing feats like thinking off the cuff, making the most out of a situation
    --Rely more on gut instincts than reason, imagination, or values
    --More likely to take physical/intellectual/social risks
    --Attentive, quick to act
    --Able to gauge the motives of others
    --Makes immediate clear impact, often with grace, with minimal effort

    Te Examples

    -Rely on measurable data to plug into their formulas to make decisions
    -Uses references to support claims
    -Focuses on *correct* word content, percentages, units etc
    -Finds that "facts speak for themselves" or "facts don't care about your feelings" (lol)
    -Easily convinced by quantities, figures, extrapolations preferably using things like charts, diagrams, grids
    -May quickly rise to managerial roles
    -Frankness may hurt others / May treat people like objects
    -Can usually provide convincing decisive explanations
    -Excellent talkers/articulators/writers that characteristically come off frank and to the point.
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 12-27-2020 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Ironically a lot of SLEs believe in magic and else due Ni influence.
    Panpsychism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Ironically a lot of SLEs believe in magic and else due Ni influence.
    I'm always feel that Beta way more spiritual than Gamma. When Gamma (mostly NT) can be interest in fiction, fantasy or scifi, or interest in religions, supernatural (ILI), they usually separate those hobbies from their real life approach. Ti + Ni can be blindly believe in their own version of "the Truth".
    Last edited by Tarnished; 12-28-2020 at 03:15 AM.

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    Believing in supernatural shit has more to do with lack of intelligence and education than type.

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    The origin from where belief stems from should be the concern. As such people may trust themselves on a very little data or their perceptions are heavily distorted. It is hard to tell anything about the quality vs quantity aspect. A brain may fire up completely random connections all the time. There are super intelligent psychotic people as well as there are super dum. A concensus driven supernatural stuff, well, lol. Again there is also something inherently good about that as well. It keeps society running in right proportions .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moharu View Post
    I'm always feel that Beta way more spiritual than Gamma. When Gamma (mostly NT) can be interest in fiction, fantasy or scifi, or interest in religions, supernatural (ILI), they usually separate those hobbies from their real life approach. Ti + Ni can be blindly believe in their own version of "the Truth".
    Yea I think every quadra expresses itself in their own way, betas are definitely outwardly passionate in a spiritual sense.

    I'm not sure if I'd characterize Ti / Ni as blind... Maybe more independent lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Yea I think every quadra expresses itself in their own way, betas are definitely outwardly passionate in a spiritual sense.

    I'm not sure if I'd characterize Ti / Ni as blind... Maybe more independent lol
    Yeah it depend on the person. But introvert Beta types like ISTj and INFp could be more easy fall for that. ISTjs with Ne polr can refuse other possibilities and only believe in their own way (Ti-Ni). INFp with Te polr can refuse to check real life facts and only believe in their own visions and logic (Ni-Ti)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moharu View Post
    Yeah it depend on the person. But introvert Beta types like ISTj and INFp could be more easy fall for that. ISTjs with Ne polr can refuse other possibilities and only believe in their own way (Ti-Ni). INFp with Te polr can refuse to check real life facts and only believe in their own visions and logic (Ni-Ti)
    Yeah I guess for me growing up, I actually found *more* reasons to believe as time went on. Usually kids that graduate from high school leave the church and proclaim "they found science" or whatever, but this wasn't the case for me lol. It definitely wasn't a pleasant process, especially when you're constantly bombarded with people/media/culture: "religion is stupid" "believing in God means you don't believe in science" etc etc. Bumper sticker statements weren't enough to deter me because I thought that was just stupid and opposite of rational reasoning, I had to independently come to my conclusions, but yes, Ne-PoLR surely influenced *how* I arrived at my conclusion.

    And I think every type can be stubborn in their own way as well
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 12-28-2020 at 01:39 PM.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chillaxe View Post
    Okay, while we are on the subject, something that I have been thinking for a long time now is that the Se descriptions are broken. Jung, as was already posted on this thread, clearly makes Se out to be the MBIT Se, sensations. The Se that socionics presents is basically bullying. Obviously, if anybody dealt with some type of bully, they will just assume that was an Se ego type.
    They are of course talking about the same thing. But all descriptions of functions in Socionics are simplified. I've always read the description as hints rather than as definitions. It's not that hard to understand that someone might associate Se with bullying (or force) looking at some examples of people with strong Se.

    I personally think it was because Aušra Augustinavičiūtė and many of the other developers of socionics were Se devaluing and thus understood Se wrong. On the other hand, Jung is almost always thought to be a ILI or IEI, so he viewed Se in others, more or less, positively.
    To me Jung is an obvious LII-C but all of his descriptions of functions are much more advanced than socionics, not just the Se. Socionics has problems with other functions also, like Fe (in my opinion). The powerful thing with Socionics though is that because there is so much redundancy (because of the relationships etc) it is probably the easiest and best way to learn Jung's typology and get connected with the real phenomenon that the types are.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Yea I think the theory makes sense and I have a general understanding. I'm more trying to isolate/quantify it in a practical way to be useable IRL. Like what's the diamond core that can be extrapolated
    Ah yes, a "living socionics". I've been trying that all along. Not that anyone has ever noticed or given me credit. Even though someone keeps updating the wiki with words straight out of my mouth. Socionics is very much alive and dynamic and breathing and contains gradients everywhere.

    Se and Te types are often in the same spheres of reality but the information is so, so different. Oh god its different when happening. Good Se looks like Te because good Te takes into consideration good Se. I know you know what I'm saying. Like I said, Se is so much more intuitive in a conventional use of that word. But if a Se person needs to accomplish something, lets say a great feat of construction, then they are going to NEED some Te foundation. In this same topic, it makes me bemused when people here on this site mistake tough LSE people for SLE people, when if you think about it in what way would a Te-polr person be served by a person hyper-focused on the right way of doing stuff? You think a SLE cares all the time about the right way to do it? Instead of just "a-way" ?


    Hmm they sound like the Terminator lol
    Sure it sounds bland and machine like, but Te people still have personalities. Socionics covers information metabolism and then personality is influenced by that, as I am sure you are aware. Most of every industry is now FIRMLY rooted in Te understanding of process and therefore reality. For who and why would someone venture on something that is a waste of time and money and energy? Why not do it the best? With the most returns? ----But notice the Se here as well?

    The best way to differentiate is a certain amount of real time decisiveness. Se types can do things on the fly and by things I mean ANYTHING. Its about finesse.
    Last edited by timber; 12-29-2020 at 03:11 AM. Reason: spelling. no interest changing the poor grammar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Ah yes, a "living socionics". I've beed trying that all along. Not that anyone has ever noticed or given me credit. Even though someone keeps updating the wiki with words straight out of my mouth. Socionics is very much alive and dynamic and breathing and contains gradients everywhere.

    Se and Te types are often in the same spheres of reality but the information is so, so different. Oh god its different when happening. Good Se looks like Te because good Te takes into consideration good Se. I know you know what I'm saying. Like I said, Se is so much more intuitive in a conventional use of that word. But if a Se person needs to accomplish something, lets say a great feat of construction, then they are going to NEED some Te foundation. In this same topic, it makes me bemused when people here on this site mistake tough LSE people for SLE people, when if you think about it in what way would a Te-polr person be served by a person hyper-focused on the right way of doing stuff? You think a SLE cares all the time about the right way to do it? Instead of just "a-way" ?




    Sure it sounds bland and machine like, but Te people still have personalities. Socionics covers information metabolism and then personality is influenced by that, as I am sure you are aware. Most of every industry is now FIRMLY rooted in Te understanding of process and therefore reality. For who and why would someone venture on something that is a waste of time and money and energy? Why not do it the best? With the most returns? ----But notice the Se here as well?

    The best way to differentiate is a certain amount of real time decisiveness. Se types can do things on the fly and by things I mean ANYTHING. Its about finesse.
    Your post Se > Te

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    They are of course talking about the same thing. But all descriptions of functions in Socionics are simplified. I've always read the description as hints rather than as definitions. It's not that hard to understand that someone might associate Se with bullying (or force) looking at some examples of people with strong Se.



    To me Jung is an obvious LII-C but all of his descriptions of functions are much more advanced than socionics, not just the Se. Socionics has problems with other functions also, like Fe (in my opinion). The powerful thing with Socionics though is that because there is so much redundancy (because of the relationships etc) it is probably the easiest and best way to learn Jung's typology and get connected with the real phenomenon that the types are.
    Yeah over all I agree with "socionics is probably the best way to learn Jungs stuff". However, what I was getting at, was that some of the function descriptions are just very poor. Se as "force" is terrible. Se is not a reason to bully, socionics dwells on this and connects Se and bullying almost directly. As I stated, an Se ego type will bully for some other reason, like not knowing how to solve a problem with mobilizing Fe, not because they want it take in new experiences. This is one of the few places that MBIT gets closer to Jung and edges out socionics. I would say normally the reverse is true.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chillaxe View Post
    Yeah over all I agree with "socionics is probably the best way to learn Jungs stuff". However, what I was getting at, was that some of the function descriptions are just very poor. Se as "force" is terrible. Se is not a reason to bully, socionics dwells on this and connects Se and bullying almost directly. As I stated, an Se ego type will bully for some other reason, like not knowing how to solve a problem with mobilizing Fe, not because they want it take in new experiences. This is one of the few places that MBIT gets closer to Jung and edges out socionics. I would say normally the reverse is true.
    I'm curious, do Socionics Se descriptions actually mention "bullying"? Or is it just a stereotype that has developed in this forum? I haven't read descriptions for a long time.

    Se gives the person a direct mental link to objects so of course this can be used in positive or negative ways. Even if Se is not force in itself, it gives the individual in some respect an advantage when dealing with the physical environment. All functions give an advantage to the individual, it is just more easy to observe for some functions.

    You said that Se egos will bully for some reason, and I think that's definitely true also, but it also looks to me like it's so natural for them to engage directly with the world so it almost happens automatically. They might not even have any bad intentions. It might not always be correct to call it "bullying" though.

    But yes, I agree that the Socionics descriptions are poor.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    I've seen bullies of just about all types; it has more to do with how one has been raised or influenced. Se-types tend to gravitate toward the actual/factual aspects of things and a few can be physically ruthless especially if they're cornered, but Te-types tend to be the ones who are the most interactive and many will get into someone's face to get what they want but this isn't necessarily intentional bullying although sometimes it may seem like it.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I've seen bullies of just about all types; it has more to do with how one has been raised or influenced. Se-types tend to gravitate toward the actual/factual aspects of things and a few can be physically ruthless especially if they're cornered, but Te-types tend to be the ones who are the most interactive and many will get into someone's face to get what they want but this isn't necessarily intentional bullying although sometimes it may seem like it.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Usually I see "bully" could be display in three way: Se (physically), Te or Fe. Se polr will hate Se - bully the most, and so Te polr and Fe polr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moharu View Post
    Usually I see "bully" could be display in three way: Se (physically), Te or Fe. Se polr will hate Se - bully the most, and so Te polr and Fe polr.
    Bullying is related to personal baggage and not IEs. Most males seemed to have a physical (macho) aspect to their bulling style while more female bullies seemed to use subversion and veiled threats. I would think that bullies with higher testosterone levels would be more physical.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I think Te is focused on a goal or aim. I'd say it's concerned with effectiveness in getting the outcome it seeks, while preserving and enforcing values. Values are kind of like limitations on what will be considered, enforced, or protected. Values are like axioms for Te. It's much more logical and explanatory in its action and also less compromising.

    Se has no goal or aim per se, other than to live well in the moment. For example, say you are in the forest and happen across a Grizzly bear; you will size the bear up and determine how much of a threat you think it is to you; you'll look at different features and make intuitive estimations (Ni) about its nature and what you think you need to do. Then you will act based on those intuitive impressions. These things aren't logical like Te, where you decide there has to be a certain outcome; it is more instinctive where you decide you must do 'x' action because of 'y' intuitive reason. And your actions will be completely unique based on what stimuli you take in through your senses and your interpretation of them. To Se, life is something to master, rather than to control, like Te.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Just rename this place Beta Central lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    The only problem socionics has given me is a propensity to analyze every relationship from the lens of socionics and I also see that it is worse in my boyfriend. Nothing makes any sense that way and it does not really solve any problems.





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    Te = the TV is right

    Se = Do what I tell ya
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    @peteronfireee

    Hmm well personally speaking something about Amy Schumer kinda has rubbed me the wrong way that I couldn't quite put my finger on.

    Maybe it's cuz she seems like the type that would greatly exaggerate any small offense to improve her own career, whereas I've always liked Madonna - even when Madge is being kind of crazy, psycho and victimy. Even though technically I guess they both are just spoiled bitches who use the Illuminati/system to get what they want lol - I personally prefer Madonna's methods much better. I've always seen Madonna as SLE really, my dual.

  33. #73
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
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    So there is this popularized article about magnetically induced "Se" and other larp. And yes, I think psychopathy is not "real" and stuff that are linked to it are not well understood (if they just look for one plausible precursor or something).
    https://www.chronicle.com/article/ps...s-double-edge/
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Believing in supernatural shit has more to do with lack of intelligence and education than type.
    I agree. I used to be a militant religious zealot before I became more educated. I channel that zeal into politics, now, but, as my politics is based on my own ideas and perceptions, I'm far less rigid in a lot of my ideas than I once was with religion.

    I'm thinking I'm the EII-D subtype under the DHCN system, and EII-Ne under the other system.

    Reading this thread, though, I wonder if I may be Ni ego, after all...
    ...as it stands, I mainly consider possibilities along the lines of "If I bike instead of drive today, could that help me get my weight back under control?" or "Does this political program show promise for ending homelessness and privation in the area?"

    I tend to not think about how life would be different if gravity didn't exist or if the rocks around my house have an inner experience, ect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Internationale View Post
    I agree. I used to be a militant religious zealot before I became more educated. I channel that zeal into politics, now, but, as my politics is based on my own ideas and perceptions, I'm far less rigid in a lot of my ideas than I once was with religion.

    I'm thinking I'm the EII-D subtype under the DHCN system, and EII-Ne under the other system.

    Reading this thread, though, I wonder if I may be Ni ego, after all...
    ...as it stands, I mainly consider possibilities along the lines of "If I bike instead of drive today, could that help me get my weight back under control?" or "Does this political program show promise for ending homelessness and privation in the area?"

    I tend to not think about how life would be different if gravity didn't exist or if the rocks around my house have an inner experience, ect.
    These are delta NF thoughts (especially the bike example), the gravity example would be more like an ILE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    These are delta NF thoughts (especially the bike example), the gravity example would be more like an ILE.
    I will say this, though, if I saw a youtube video with those ILE questions on them, I may click on them to hear whoever out, and this will likely be at the expense of whatever important work I need to do.

    Before the internet, I had decent concentration abilities, now I start a dozen tasks every day while finishing none of them.

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    Te = external dynamics of objects. It's like understanding where external objective facts are headed in a fly-by moment independent of all feeling. And how they all work together and how they don't, how they are coordinated with each other. Te is pretty much like the exact opposite of Fe. It's a bunch of weird external knowledge and data that isn't confined and static like Ti is. It's easily related to knowing a lot of business crap because businesses operate in narcissistic and "soulless" ways with exploitative systems that are always in-flux and stereotypically tend to fuck over the shy, gentle and big-hearted nondualistic people the most (IEI & SEI). By nondualistic I mean spiritual nonduality 'we are all one' which is how SEIs and IEIs fulfill their social roles as the ultimate diplomats and AoE Healers.

    Te isn't like that, it's naturally more exploitative and snake-like but does make Te PoLRs much tougher the more they understand it's their weakness and correct it. However Te is inherently linked with Fi so the rules of ethics Te uses is knowable only to itself and it's personal relation to Fi stuff. This tends to be very private and narcissistic. A lot deeper than somebody being nice or mean.

    And Te is always changing in a sense- it's not really like settling on one factoid of data. It's always kinda condescendingly smirking at Ti like that. Te is also simply moving objects - although in more limited ways this can be Se too.

    Se, as crude as it sounds, Se is like 'I enjoyed the smell of Chad's butthole & the unique physical sensation when he spat on my face.' That stuff is Si-ish too in much milder ways, but Se is just the inverse of Si. It is a base perceiving functions that measures up the amount of personal will power and force in a situation. Se tends to apply the right pressure to people and makes them feel safe physically or scares them off if they are like an LII and easily bullied by Se. Se is making somebody physically feel good, but if too out of control it's also tied into rape and creepy Jeffrey Dahmer shit- which is why it's scapegoated often by Delta authority figures who don't value it or fully understand it. (they only perceive the negative effects of it as they don't value it.) However it is very possible a Se-polr could act that way too if they were incredibly mentally unhealthy and were greatly compensating and had lots of mental health issues on top of SE polr.

    Se also encourages people to just show up and be around it, as it's good at playing chess in a sense. However the 'area of power' around it is smaller than Te is because it's a more perceiving function rather than a mental judgement function. It's not so much like controlling everything with anchors and levers and complicated system from this narcissistically high vantage point in the sky that Te is. It's more 'worldly' and grounded than that. Although the area of power is smaller, it tends to be much more forceful and direct in the moment.

    In SEE they tend to be really ethical even kinda moralistic with their Se because they have Fi as their creative function so they are always like making their Se work for them in creative ways without looking like too much of an asshole. In SLE it's a bit more problematic because they have Ti as their creative function not a faggy ethical function but a logical str8 man function- but this doesn't necessarily mean every SLE male is in prison or anything. ((but where you can understand where the stereotype comes from.))

    Se also makes very objectively true factual statements about people that are true like "That person is fat" etc. It 'sizes people up well' because it's naturally linked with Ni. Ni also helps Se gives meaning and "pause." To make the carnality and assessments feel more meaningful. ((as there is something else about it that Se might be missing that Ni needs to reveal to it.)) This also greatly ethicalizes the process and helps De-Dahmerize Se.

    Se brings things to life and makes ppl stop being overly intellectual nerds that live only in their heads. Things like dancing, hot sex, aggression, "I won because I'm more powerful. Deal with it.", simply 'being aware' and stop introverting, smelling Chad's butthole, feeling the full force-ness of a party w/o being some wallflowered loser, are all Se-ish things of course. Se conquers through sheer force of will it is the color Red and like the Warrior class in RPGs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    Fe is judgment function and is in concerned with controlling of the emotional atmosphere, and that is where “image” falls in. Bullying is actually an Fe thing, it’s controlling how the room feels based on how you manipulated the people in the room to feel. It’s Fi that is putting yourself in other people’s shoes and it’s due to empathy that creates bonds. Se is perception, reactions to the physical environment, not judgment.

    Irl, yeah there would be more EIE than SLE bullies (Se leads are not common) because they’re weak with Se (but value it) but super strong with Fe so they will manipulate the emotional atmosphere and conjure up an act to push people into feeling a certain way and that “makes” people do what the EIE wants them to do. Everyday example would be Karens. They flip out over simple facts that they can’t accept like why Starbucks don’t serve candycane lattes served during May or why they’re charged extra for their many modifications on food orders. Se bases know right away the reality and respond accordingly (as in no reaction). Keep in mind, when people huff and puff playing up their “toughness” that’s peacocking and trying to scare others. That’s what Fe is, idle threats. This is indicative of weak Se because they don’t have ability to scale how much pressure is enough so they either go overboard and look clownish or not at all.

    To get a better understanding, I suggest you read about EIE H i t l e r, because he used Fe theatrics to make even his generals fear him. Watch the documentary on The Real Antony and Cleopatra https://tubitv.com/video/472215 EIE Cleopatra was perhaps one of the greatest showman in history. Cleopatra heavily relied upon her “powerful” image projection but couldn’t be bothered to kill off her enemies and had SEE Caesar and SLE Antony do it. Fe base is constantly concerned with their image and will fight to keep it. Se base is perceiving factual reality and responding to it accordingly.
    Actually Fe puts yourself in the others shoes cuz its extroverted. Fi, being focused inward, is about how the subject relates to things.

  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chillaxe View Post
    Okay, while we are on the subject, something that I have been thinking for a long time now is that the Se descriptions are broken. Jung, as was already posted on this thread, clearly makes Se out to be the MBIT Se, sensations. The Se that socionics presents is basically bullying. Obviously, if anybody dealt with some type of bully, they will just assume that was an Se ego type.

    I personally think it was because Aušra Augustinavičiūtė and many of the other developers of socionics were Se devaluing and thus understood Se wrong. On the other hand, Jung is almost always thought to be a ILI or IEI, so he viewed Se in others, more or less, positively.

    In my personal experience, with ex GF, friends and my father, Se lead people are much more like the Jung MBIT description, than the socionics bullies. Bullying comes from some other function or motivation than wanting to take in experiences. An SLE may bully, but similar to the other idea being discussed, it probably comes from him being insecure about how others view him and unsure about how to fix that to his liking ( weak and valued Fe)
    I relate to both Se descriptions and see other Se leads fall into both stuff. They dont necessarily contradict eachother, just more or less highlight different aspects of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akira View Post
    Ironically a lot of SLEs believe in magic and else due Ni influence.
    I heard SLIs dont like to wipe their ass as often

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