Carl Gustav Jung - INTP - Balzac
Carl Gustav Jung - INTP - Balzac
Ah, khcs is back.
I love it.
ILE ENTP-Ne
THE VISIONARY FUTURIST per my archetypes list.
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Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
Why ILI? I don't really see any explicit signs of Te creative.
Why that guy gets so perplexed around Ni if he is supposed to be ILI or IEI?
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idiosyncratic type
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For typing purposes I recommend reading "The undiscovered Self". It's pretty normal language and non-technical stuff. Fairly easy to read if you can stand the concentrated Ti. I think it shows his LII:ness pretty well.
People associate analysis of the unconscious with Ni. That's where the Ni typing comes from. It's like typing the "theme" of his work, instead of the man himself. Imo that's a mistake
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
How does Jung get perplexed around Ni? What do you think he is?Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
I think he self-typed as Ti user but people type him INFJ? (MBTI)
Personally, I think INFJ makes sense. He is very heavy on the symbolism, also could be Te-PoLR possibly on socionics, making him IEI. He has that...I don't know how to describe it...the 'fantastical' imagination i associate with Te PoLR. Absolutely anything is possible sort of feeling. I am very imaginative too, since the Ni is strong, but I am still more drawn towards something 'rational' than he was. He seems to just ignore Te...to me at least.
LII because of Ni short circuiting his thoughts as other irrational elements might do it. I think it is quite universal reaction from them. When I hear that kind of stuff I think: LII. Therefore your are in my LII category pile.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
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LII.
IEIs are more ethereal, less Ti, someone like Hermann Hesse.
@Troll Nr 007
You think i am LII as well?
Yep. I don't really see how would you react positively on Se but I can be quite wrong.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Didn't Jung report himself as LII? It is a pretty big stretch to believe he could invent this system of typology that reveals something fundamental about the human psyche, and yet mistake his own type. I would love to know how people assessing him as ILI or IEI can reconcile this
IEI
in a lot of his works he draws many conclusions from history and the past. very interested in mysterious phenomens and artistically gifted = Ni base
he was very critical of the empirical and factual approach of psychology, even openly criticising this in his book "psychological types", which indicates to me that he didn't have Te as creative, but as vulnerable function. I also think that he was a harmonising subtype
Jung was into depth. Very static analysis. Show me IEI who does it years on end completely removed from actual relationship dynamics and focusing on partner (dreamer, reconciler, admirer are the adjectives IEI's have). This specific quality is considered to be IEI's weakness.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I think he was one of the highly gifted harmonising types that Gulenko talked about. I do not relate to his writing style in any way. LII are not as immersed in the past as he was, and I think (at least from my perspective), that he sometimes has difficulties distinguishing the primary from the secondary, getting to the point of things etc, which makes me think that he doesn't have Ti as base function.
I can send you his "red book" if you want to. it's a diary of his visions and dreams and gives a lot of insights into his type. makes it imo very clear that he was a Ni dom
Last edited by on a peaceful hiatus; 08-14-2019 at 06:50 AM.
his texts is intuitive chaotic mess. he can't be base T
We often don't see ourselves very well, and Jung was no exception to this rule.
I agree withbase. Not sure which one.
Basically, he was too focused on the past (as others have pointed out), symbolism, dreams etc to have been an LII.
Carl Gustav Jung - INTP - Balzac
why ILI(Te as creative function)? like I mentioned, he was highly critical of the empirical and statistical approach to psychology. he openly criticised this in his books. he doesn't have an objective approach to describing things. his insights came from deep observations of his patients and their problems. imo it makes much more sense for him to be an ethical type with strong Fe + Fi.
He types solely based on VI. (photos)
The results are based on psychology, function descriptions and database examples.
Here is Carl Gustav Jung look-a-like in real life.
IEI
I remember talking about his type so pls excuse me if I'm contradicting something I said months or years ago elsewhere. I'm comfortable ruling out creative Te because Ti is the most blatant thing to me as I read his compiled short works. I remember reading his autobiography awhile ago and coming away with "INxx," which, in conjunction with the use of Ti, narrows it down to a couple types. I'd just go with LII, but lack internal cogency wrt how id place his intuition. I guess he did type himself as such, if you care and see his psychological types as equivalent to socionics and stuff.
11:30 - 14 min
He talks about his capacity for violence
Jung: I hated that fellow and that was the only man I could have killed, you know, if I had met him once on a dark corner, I would have shown him something, what I could do.Did you often have violent thoughts about people when you were young?
Jung: No, only when I got mad, well then, I beat them up.You were very strong and big I imagine
Jung: Yes, I was pretty strong, and you know ...[Unintelligible]... it was a rough kind of life and I would have been capable of violence, I know. And I was a bit afraid of it, so I tried to avoid critical situations, because I didn’t trust myself.
Once I was attacked by about 7 boys, and I got mad and I took one and just swung him around with his legs, and beat down 4 of them, and they left satisfied.
Last edited by inaLim; 12-31-2020 at 06:41 PM.
...According to Peter Gay: "Jung left the most contradictory impressions on those who knew him; he was sociable but difficult, amusing at times and taciturn at others, outwardly self-confident yet vulnerable to criticism... He was also beset by tormenting religious crises. Whatever his private conflicts, from his youth, Jung exuded a sense of power, with his large frame, sturdy build, strongly carved Teutonic face, and torrential eloquence." (3)
At university he became interested in spiritualism and mesmerism. This included attended a number of spiritualist séances. Just before his final examination, Jung happened to read the introduction of a book on psychiatry by Richard von Krafft-Ebing and "suddenly understood the connection between psychology or philosophy and medical science." At this point he decided to specialize in psychiatry. (5)
In 1900, he began working in a psychiatric hospital in Zurich, with Eugen Bleuler. His dissertation, published in 1903, was titled On the Psychology and Pathology of So-Called Occult Phenomena. Bleuler was a follower of Sigmund Freud and he gave Jung a copy of his book, The Interpretation of Dreams (1900). The book left its mark on Jung and incorporated Freud's ideas into his own work. (6)
Jung did not meet Freud until 27th February, 1907. Jung and Ludwig Binswanger, his colleague, were invited to a family meal. Martin Freud later recalled: "He (Jung) never made the slightest attempt to make polite conversation with mother or us children but pursued the debate which had been interrupted by the call to dinner. Jung on these occasions did all the talking and father with unconcealed delight did all the listening." According to Martin his father and Jung talked for about thirteen hours without stopping. (13)
Jung also attended a meeting of the "Wednesday Psychological Society" on 7th March. Members of the group included Alfred Adler, Otto Rank, Max Eitingon, Wilhelm Stekel, Karl Abraham, Hanns Sachs and Sandor Ferenczi. That evening Ernest Jones, a friend from England, was at the meeting and later claimed that Jung had "a breezy personality" endowed with "a restlessly active and quick brain" he "was forceful or even domineering in temperament". Jones commented that Freud was attracted to "Jung's vitality". (15)
People found Carl Jung a very attractive man that had the ability to hold people's attention. One of Freud's son's described him as having a commanding presence: "He was very tall and broad-shouldered, holding himself more like a soldier than a man of science and medicine. His head was purely Teutonic with a strong chin, a small mustache, blue eyes and thin close-cropped hair." (16)
In 1908, Freud appointed Jung as editor of the newly founded Yearbook for Psychoanalytical and Psychopathological Research. It has been claimed: "Freud needed Jung's huge energy, intellect and gift for publicity to push forward the expansion of what was rapidly becoming a psychoanalytical movement. It was also no hindrance that Jung was a non-Jew and a non-Austrian. Psychoanalysis could no longer be dismissed, in anti-Semitic terms, as a strange, probably decadent mishmash of psychology and sexuality dreamt up by a coterie of Viennese Jews." (18)
Ernest Jones suggested that Freud's followers should hold an international conference. The meeting took place in Salzburg on 27th April, 1908. Jung named it the "First Congress for Freudian Psychology". The following year the group formed the International Psychoanalytical Congress at Nuremberg in March 1910. Its first President was Carl Jung. "To begin with, Jung with his commanding presence and soldierly bearing looked the part of the leader. With his psychiatric training and position, his excellent intellect and his evident devotion to the work, he seemed far better qualified for the post than anyone else." (19)
In the early stages of their relationship Sigmund Freud played the role of mentor and Carl Jung as his pupil. In response to this, Freud "to the irritation of others in the psychoanalytic movement, was quick to award Jung the role of heir apparent". It was not long before differences in their respective approaches to sexuality became clear. "Jung refused to accept Freud's all-pervasive account, seeking to understand the main force in human life as a more generalized energy. He was also open to a more mystical and religious approach to life: attitudes that Freud would dismiss as mere illusion." (23)
During the boat trip to the United States the two men spent a lot of time discussing Freud's theories. Ernest Jonesreported the two men began to argue about the importance of the Oedipus complex. Freud and Jung were also involved in the study of religion: "The revival of his interest in religion was to a considerable extent connected with Jung's extensive excursion into mythology and mysticism. They brought back opposite conclusions from their studies." (24)
Lou Andreas-Salomé took the side of Sigmund Freud over Carl Jung: "A single look at these two will reveal which of them is the most dogmatic, the more power-loving. Where with Jung a kind of robust gaiety, abundant vitality, spoke through his booming laughter two years ago, his seriousness now holds pure aggressiveness, ambition, mental brutality." (39)
However, as Hans Eysenck has pointed out: "Contrary to common belief, he (Jung) did not originate the terms extraversion and introversion, but took them over from common European usage, where they had been widely employed for over two hundred years. Neither was he the first to describe these temperamental types, as is often believed; as pointed out before, they go back at least as far as Galen and probably even further, and all that can be said of Jung's own contribution to this typology is that what is new in it is not true, and what is true is not new." (43)
Jung’s presence described as commanding, soldierly, forceful or domineering temperament, huge energy and vitality, with a gift for publicity.
Jung’s interests - mysticism, occult, spiritualism, mesmerism (still somewhat mainstream in the 1900s, but not acceptable in the medical professions)
Last edited by inaLim; 12-31-2020 at 04:31 AM.
Jung describing Beta NF H:tler
Jung told the journalist, Hubert R. Knickerbocker, in January 1939: "There is no question but that ****** belongs in the category of the truly mystic medicine man. As somebody commented about him at the last Nuremburg party congress, since the time of Mohammed nothing like it has been seen in this world. His body does not suggest strength. The outstanding characteristic of his physiognomy is its dreamy look. I was especially struck by that when I saw pictures taken of him in the Czechoslovakian crisis; there was in his eyes the look of a seer. This markedly mystic characteristic of ******'s is what makes him do things which seem to us illogical, inexplicable, and unreasonable. ... So you see, ****** is a medicine man, a spiritual vessel, a demi-deity or, even better, a myth." (61)
https://www.newdawnmagazine.com/arti...of-carl-g-jung
Jung’s family upbringing in the occult
https://virtueonline.org/carl-jung-a...nder-oppositesJung’s involvement with the occult was with him from the start – literally, it was in his DNA. His maternal grandfather, Rev. Samuel Preiswerk, who learned Hebrew because he believed it was spoken in heaven, accepted the reality of spirits, and kept a chair in his study for the ghost of his deceased first wife, who often came to visit him. Jung’s mother Emilie was employed by Samuel to shoo away the dead who distracted him while he was working on his sermons. She herself developed mediumistic powers in her late teens. At the age of 20, she fell into a coma for 36 hours; when her forehead was touched with a red-hot poker she awoke, speaking in tongues and prophesying. Emilie continued to enter trance states throughout her life, in which she would communicate with the dead. She also seems to have been a ‘split personality’. Jung occasionally heard her speaking to herself in a voice he soon recognised was not her own, making profound remarks expressed with an uncharacteristic authority. This ‘other’ voice had inklings of a world far stranger than the one the young Carl knew.
Jung's family had occult linkage on both sides, from his paternal grandfather's Freemasonry[29] involvement as Grandmaster of the Swiss Lodge[30], and his maternal family's long-term involvement with séances and ghosts. Jung was heavily involved for many years with his mother and two female cousins in hypnotically induced séances.[31] They 'used a primitive, homemade Ouija board and a glass that moved over the letters to spell out answers to questions."[32] Jung eventually wrote up the séances as his 1902 medical dissertation entitled "On the Psychology and Pathology of So-called Occult Phenomena".[33] His Preiswerk relatives were outraged that they were 'shamefully' included, and blamed Carl Jung for the inability of several of his cousins to find husbands.[34]
James A Herrick notes that Jung's mother 'introduced him as a child to Hindu gods, for which he maintained a life-long fascination.'[35] After the death of three babies in a row before Carl Jung's birth, his mother "Emilie withdrew, taking refuge in the private interior visions of the spirits."[36] Emilie often had to be hospitalized, leaving Carl Jung with the feeling of the feminine as 'natural unreliability, one can never rely on it' and the term 'father' as 'reliability and powerlessness.'[37]
Religious upbringingJung's maternal Grandfather Samuel Preiswerk, a Basel pastor, had weekly séances attempting to contact his deceased first wife in the presence of his second wife, (Jung's grandmother) and his daughter (Jung's mother)
Jung's "family was steeped in religion - he had eight uncles in the clergy as well as his maternal grandfather and his earliest playgrounds were churches and graveyards."[44] The famous Ulysses author James Joyce disparagingly referred to Carl Jung as the Reverend Dr. Jung[45], hinting that Jungianism was really a religion. Carl Jung's pastor-father loved theological school reflections, but deeply disliked rural congregational life and was losing his faith.[46] The famous Liberal German theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher had converted and baptized Carl Jung's grandfather. Carl Jung was deeply aware of and damaged by his father's spiritual emptiness, saying "What he said sounded stale and hollow, like a tale told by someone who knows it only by hearsay and cannot quite believe it himself."[47]
Carl Jung's first and only time of taking Holy Communion was a devastating experience for him: "Slowly I came to understand that this communion had been a fatal experience for me. It had proved hollow; more than that, it had proved to be a total loss. I knew that I would never again be able to participate in this ceremony. 'Why, that is not religion at all,' I thought. 'It is the absence of God; the church is a place I should not go to. It is not life which is there, but death.'"[48]Jung believed that the "dark side" of human nature needed to be "integrated" into a single, overarching "wholeness" in order to form a less strict and difficult definition of goodness.[59] Jung significantly said: "I would rather be whole than good."[60] Wholeness for Jung is really the gnostic reconciliation of opposites. "If Christ means anything to me," said Jung, "it is only as a symbol...I do not find the historical Jesus edifying at all, merely interesting because controversial."[61]
Jung believed that "the Christ-symbol lacks wholeness in the modern psychological sense, since it does not include the dark side of things..."[62] For Jung, it was regrettable that Christ in his goodness lacked a shadow side, and God the Father, who is the Light, lacked darkness.[63] Jung sought a solution to this dilemma in the Holy Spirit who allegedly united the split in the moral opposites symbolized by Christ and Satan.[64] "Looked at from a quaternary standpoint", writes Jung, "the Holy Ghost is a reconciliation of opposites and hence the answer to the suffering in the Godhead which Christ personifies."[65]
Jung believed that Satan and Jesus, as spiritual opposites, were gnostically reconciled through the Holy Spirit. "It is possible", said Jung, "for a man to attain totality, to become whole, only with the co-operation of the spirit of darkness..."[66]
After experiencing Goethe's Faust, Jung came to believe in the 'universal power' of evil and "its mysterious role it played in delivering man from darkness and suffering."[67] "Most of all", said Jung, "(Faust) awakened in me the problem of opposites, of good and evil, of mind and matter, of light and darkness."[68]
In post-modern culture, the Judeo-Christian worldview is often dismissed as too narrow-minded and dogmatic. Jung saw the reconciliation of opposites as a sign of great cultural sophistication: "(Chinese philosophy) never failed to acknowledge the polarity and paradoxity (sic) of all life. The opposites always balanced one another - a sign of high culture. One-sidedness, though it lends momentum, is a sign of barbarism."[69] It would not be too far off to describe Jung as a gnostic Taoist. "The book on types (PT)", says Jung, "yielded the view that every judgment made by an individual is conditioned by his personality type and that every point of view is necessarily relative. This raised the question of the unity which must compensate this diversity, and it led me directly to the Chinese concept of Tao."[70] Being influenced by the Yin-Yang of Taoism, Jung believed that "Everything requires for its existence its opposite, or it fades into nothingness."[71]
Last edited by inaLim; 12-31-2020 at 09:11 AM.
N-IEI-Ni
my 2 cents,
I'm not sure if those interviews really do justice to typing. He's showing you a much older, mature, and wiser person, who is going to be more extroverted and less in his head in terms of ego/spiritual growth. I'm also not sure why symbolism, dreams, or any of the occult stuff can't apply to LII or ILI or any intuitive type. I think it belongs nicely to intuition in general. I think there's a stereotype of LII as rigid and categorical and intellectually snobby or something, but I don't think that's a good representation.
And he says his problem in life was with feeling and being grounded in reality (sensing more or less), which seems apt, considering his life. So I'm skeptical of Fe ego (and thus IEI), but maybe. I get more of an impression of an LII that has softened his edges to Fe; maybe Gulenko would say he is LII-D. Don't know.
I think I had a conversation with gulenko's team some months ago about Jung's type, and they told me he thinks Jung was an IEI. likely N or H subtype
my ideas about socionics:
https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/
the section will be updated ever other month or so.
this is a VI thread with IEI examples
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)
and this is a thread with EIE examples
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples
LSI
Well, if those are greater truths, then I guess the irony of Jung being essentially wrong about his own type diagnosis in his own theory is not lost on me. Nor the irony of its fuzzy nature being taken as something concrete.
Unless I'm mistaken Jung self-typed as Ti. I wouldn't assume he just got confused about his HA - he defined Ni and Ti but chose Ti. I always thought his writing seemed Ti lead.
Late PS: both LII and LSI access Ni; through demo and HA. Also typology has an amazing dumbass ability to underestimate sensors intellectually, and it has nothing to do with reality/truth and everything to do with BS social pecking orders.
Last edited by marooned; 01-03-2021 at 03:35 AM.
@inumbra I think you are right. Someone has what he said about his type on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIM0aajRKsw.
He says
-Have you concluded what psychological type you are, yourself?
Jung: Naturally I have devoted a great deal of attention to that painful question, you know.
-And reached a conclusion?
Jung: Well, you see... the type is nothing static. It changes, in the course of life.
[I think Jung originally considered himself TiSe in the early stages of his life (and maybe he was then), but I could be wrong. But he seems to have changed his mind to intuitive later on and maybe that's partly why he says this.]
But I most certainly was characterized by Thinking. I always thought, from early childhood on.
[So a strong relation to thinking]
And...I had a great deal of intuition too. And I had definite difficulty with feeling. Uh, and my relation to reality was not particularly brilliant. I was often at variance with the reality of things. Now, that gives you all the necessary data for a good diagnosis.
[So Jung felt he had a lot of intuition as well and struggled with feeling. I think when he says his relation to reality wasn't particularly brilliant or that he was often at variance with the reality of things I think he basically means "introverted and intuitive" because by his own definitions introversion is subjectively removed from objective reality and intuition is abstractly removed from the concrete world, but maybe there are other interpretations.]
I kinda like that he thinks it can change... Neuroplasticity and all that...
I realize that is detrimental for defining one's identity as superior to everyone else, but I say this as someone who identifies with the image triad and the need to be "unique and special" and aristocratically "better." Call it projection, but I'm not alone, and I see right through it.
It's just part of being human (and an ethical type) and feeds into the social pecking order BS. If we care about "truth" it must be acknowledged. Image/ego overwhelms typology forums.
His mystification of Ni troubles me. I fail to see much strangeness in it. Well, it could be said that because intuitive base is always keen on mental imaginary thinking it kind of renders it as that for me especially being static and I clearly note that when I push down brakes. All it is about generating various associations and occurrences from the experience and putting it down as a timeline.
On the other hand I'm a "Te"ch whore in a way, so...
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Ni is about the imagination directed to inner world. So it's lesser directed on objective reality and lesser linked with it. It's more than Ne associated with fantastic realities and beings - with metaphors, esoterical models and mythological perceptions.
IEI. His writing is heavily symbolic and Te PoLR. He can’t just get straight to the point by explaining anything clearly. He describes everything in metaphors, adds a mystical veil to everything. He said in an interview during the 1920s that he’s not good with reality despite liking the sensory world (Se suggestive). Apparently he self identifies as either Ti Se or Ti Ne but I don’t think that’s a reasonable assessment. Ti is heavily concerned with logical consistency and definition, which he’s really fuzzy on.
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