EIIs-INFjs and falling into relations with the wrong people

[Zero]

I hope I don't offend anyone by my question, it's merely out of curiosity for how this can be explained in terms of Socioincs. I wonder why if a combination of Fi and Ne is supposed to give someone the ability to assess what others are made of, EIIs usually fall into relations with toxic and unhealthy people, and take no advice on this either. When they want to help a troubled person because they see potential in this person getting better and finding the right direction in life, if you point out the unhealthy traits of this new person and judge him/her, the EII will become defensive and mad at you, not realizing that you mean good and want to save them. Funny part is they often change their minds about that person after a while, and at each point have a very strong and sure opinion about others, not accepting others to change their opinion even by providing facts.

LSEs are supposed to be able to grab EIIs out of such relations, however seems the LIE looks judgmental and selfish in the EIIs eyes when doing the same.
EII is also one of the types most likely to be drawn to their conflictor SLE, admiring their strength and protective behavior (Stratiyevskaya), why can't they see what the SLE is made of in the beginning?

How is the LSE able to grab them out of these relations? They also seem to listen to tips related to health coming from LSE but not the LIE. For example if I remind them to drink water because they're going to be dehydrated or to take their vitamins, take a coat cause it's cold out, they'll just shrug their shoulders, but the LSE has more influence on them in this area.

[Bertrand]

I think the answer to this question is in your conception of Fi Ne. its not Godlike insight into the true nature of people, rather its a rational ethical judgement made with creative capacity to perceive by way of the unconscious outer situations. It can have all sorts of results not all of which are objectively the best. Rogozhin and Prince Myshkin are considered an example of EII SLE and its not confict in the traditional sense, but particularly EII SLE conflict. Every type has their own personal experience of "conflict" both in terms of ITR and what it means to conflict in a more colloquial sense (experience of conflict viewed from the first or third person). EII SLE conflict is "weird" to other types, or unusual you might say, because its not like they outwardly fight in some kind of Se force on force sense

[Kernel]

I'm not sure if I'm EII or IEE, but I relate to this so much, I have this tendency as well. I fell into a relation with someone who was abusive with me and blamed for all their abusive actions even accused me of being the abusive one. Theyy apologize to me, I forgive then they act very cruel with me again with no feeling of remose later. I stayed because I had pity for them and I could see them becoming a better person, I have seen some good traits in them and wanted to focus on that. But all my attemps each time failed and they ended up ruining my life and completely misunderstanding my motives which was destructive for me. My friend who knows about it told me countless times to never talk to them again, but I couldn't because I kept seeing how the situation will be if they actually felt remose and decided to improve themselves. I always had this perfect reaction I wanted to see from them, but sadly it didn't happen. When I felt like all my attempts were in vain, I got very sad and called them out on all their shitty, unethical traits but inside I was still hoping they would feel remose, but no they didn't...

When I had enough of the abuse, I called my ESE friend and told her all what happened with details and cried my eyes out, she called them and made them learn a lesson and told them to never approach me again (which was a relief), she even threatned them that if they approach me again she would do what they don't expect. She advised me to start enjoying life and not waste my time on people who don't deserve/appreciate what you do for them...

[falsehope]

Fi and Ne doesn't give you idea of what people are made of in first place. Another thing, it's not only EII fault but also SLE fault.
Why they stick together? Well it depends on the story, for example, the SLE guy is studying in another city, visiting EII only on weekends, only to make love and babies. Then he moves with EII to new flat and the truth comes out, but it's too late - there are kids. Both feel they would continue it and some fights once a day occur, SLE lives in another room, EII serves sex once a while, and they live "happily" ever after. True story. And the kids were ILE and ESI, also conflict. So it was fun all along, and there was happy end for everyone. Just kidding, happy ends are for holywood movies ;-)

[Lord Pixel]

I hope I don't offend anyone by my question, it's merely out of curiosity for how this can be explained in terms of Socioincs. I wonder why if a combination of Fi and Ne is supposed to give someone the ability to assess what others are made of, EIIs usually fall into relations with toxic and unhealthy people, and take no advice on this either. When they want to help a troubled person because they see potential in this person getting better and finding the right direction in life, if you point out the unhealthy traits of this new person and judge him/her, the EII will become defensive and mad at you, not realizing that you mean good and want to save them. Funny part is they often change their minds about that person after a while, and at each point have a very strong and sure opinion about others, not accepting others to change their opinion even by providing facts.

LSEs are supposed to be able to grab EIIs out of such relations, however seems the LIE looks judgmental and selfish in the EIIs eyes when doing the same.
EII is also one of the types most likely to be drawn to their conflictor SLE, admiring their strength and protective behavior (Stratiyevskaya), why can't they see what the SLE is made of in the beginning?

How is the LSE able to grab them out of these relations? They also seem to listen to tips related to health coming from LSE but not the LIE. For example if I remind them to drink water because they're going to be dehydrated or to take their vitamins, take a coat cause it's cold out, they'll just shrug their shoulders, but the LSE has more influence on them in this area.

It's the LIE's Ni. It feels like too strong and narrow an assessment of a person. It seems to jump to a conclusion about a person too quickly and the EII's Ne is like "Nooo look at all these other possibilties of why this person can be this or that, you don't know for sure why they are the way they are." EII might defend the person and say "He's just going through a hard time and dealing with past traumas." LIE would jump to the conclusion and say "He's a psychopath." I guess it simply just feels unfair and judgmental to make a call on what a person IS based off one or two traits or incidences when you barely know them. Ni egos tend to make that leap about people very quickly when they first meet them, Ne egos do not like that.
But yea over time with the EII themselves see more and more evidence they will come to their own conclusion, perhaps the LIE just gets there faster while the EII holds out, innocent till proven guilty I guess.

I also recognize my own draw to SLEs, even knowing what they are made of. The feeling tends to override the logic there, and you want to hope it will be better than what you think I guess. But EIIs who don't know socionics might feel like "Oh my god I never felt this way about anyone." and get with an SLE despite knowing they are wrong for them, I think it's a matter of just yielding to that strong feeling.

Not exactly sure why EIIs might shrug off that advice you said, but I do know that some LIE advice tends to encourage one to do hard inconvenient work for long amounts of time lol, probably advice based in Te, Ni and Se, and that can feel inconvenient to an EII. LSE advice tends to sound more convenient like "All you have to do is take this pill once a week.", there advice usually sounds super easy to implement. Also the advice you said sounds like you are super sure the person will get dehydrated, and an EII might think " I did this before and I haven't gotten dehydrated, you don't know fore sure that i will." Like that super sureness (even if you are right and EII learns later on) seems restricting to EII, and they prefer to have a benefit of the doubt, in this case the benefit would be not having to remember to drink water, it's not a big deal but it's simply just easier(but I am also speaking as an EII with e9 in my tritype). LSE might word this more in a way to be prepared, like, drink water so you don't get dehydrated, making dehydration seem more like a possibility and not a promised outcome, like "Do this just in case." That appeals to Ne, to be prepared for a possible outcome, than to worry about the inevitable outcome which seems more Ni based and isn't valued by EII, hence the shrugging the shoulders. Minor difference in wording when saying do this because else X will happen (implying X is what happens 100% of the time, Ne usually resists being 100% sure about most things) vs do this so X doesn't happen( implying X might happen but isn't sure to happen, very Ne based and well received when presented as a possibility) . Ni usually makes me scream 'YOU DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE!" Even if the person is inevitably right, I just naturally react that way until I see it for myself. I imagine LSE's just incase approach might not work on an ESI who wants to know what's the mostly likely outcome and less concerned about unlikely possibilities.

[Zero]

I think the answer to this question is in your conception of Fi Ne. its not Godlike insight into the true nature of people, rather its a rational ethical judgement made with creative capacity to perceive by way of the unconscious outer situations. It can have all sorts of results not all of which are objectively the best. Rogozhin and Prince Myshkin are considered an example of EII SLE and its not confict in the traditional sense, but particularly EII SLE conflict. Every type has their own personal experience of "conflict" both in terms of ITR and what it means to conflict in a more colloquial sense (experience of conflict viewed from the first or third person). EII SLE conflict is "weird" to other types, or unusual you might say, because its not like they outwardly fight in some kind of Se force on force sense

I see your point but even if we don't idealize Fi Ne in terms of assessing what others are made of, we can theoretically expect it to be better at it related to most other types. However I now think my answer is that the first thing the EII notices in a person, isn't the amount of benefit they can have from a relationship with them, so they don't particularly mind getting a bit hurt or wasting their time trying helping to people for the greater good. I remember in MBTI type INFP was called " the Martyr". However they are sometimes too optimistic about their healing abilities and fall in trap of relations with borderline, bipolar, suicidal individuals, or people with serious personality disorder, thinking they can help these people find their place in life. This is where they really need to be grabbed away from the situation.

About SLE EII conflict being weird I sure have my wonders about this as well but if as you said it is because "its not like they outwardly fight in some kind of Se force on force sense", then why don't I encounter the same situation in SEE LII conflict?

[Minde]

You got me thinking! I started writing my thoughts and it ended up kind of long and rambling, lol.


1. Falling in with the "wrong" people:

My tendency is to want to connect gently, calmly, and genuinely with another person, growing in depth over time and as is comfortable for both parties. I love the simple moments of emotional "oneness" with others - from a sympathetic glance with a stranger to open vulnerability with a close loved one. (Fi)

I also tend to follow best-case-scenario paths in my head when it comes to people. Or at least the more positive ones, because those are what I want. Although sometimes I see a negative potential and prematurely shut down, too. But in general I like to think of people as being full of good potential and then I act as if that's the case. (Ne + positivism)

Furthermore, once I attach to someone, I tend to stick with them even if they go through rough patches (introverted + static). And I do tend to think of bad behavior as stemming from unhealth that can be cured, or just moments of weakness. Part of that is changing anything in my life takes effort and I can be lazy in that regard. Part of that is also that I can get attached to an ideal of this person, and not want to let that go, both for my sake and for theirs (could be a form of Si seeking, in the sense that I desire holistic health for myself and others).

I'm definitely not all-seeing in terms of people's intentions and thoughts, though. I can see some things that others don't, but also miss huge things. And I've had a few times where I've stuck with people longer than I should have. For example, my first year of college I made friends with a girl who had a back injury. I hung out with her, drove her places, helped her out a lot, gave emotional support. After awhile, several different people (friends, parents) encouraged me to back away from that relationship as they perceived she was essentially just using me. I wasn't sure about it, but I did back off slowly. As I did, I noticed how she got clingier and it became more apparent that the people warning me were probably right. Once I completely cut her off, I noticed how my life got much better. It was weird because I didn't notice the nature of the relationship until after it ended. But I did learn from it (somewhat, heh).

I resisted breaking off that relationship. The only reason I did back away is because I had a lot of trust built with the people warning me and they suggested ways of backing away slowly, which helped me see some things for myself.

It takes me awhile to see someone differently, but once I do the change is more permanent and harder to alter. It could be the IXFj, or even just the Ij part of me. Introverted + static.


2. LIE input vs. LSE input:

In my experience, LIEs tend to offer objectively very helpful suggestions, but they have an attitude of, "This is the best idea; make it happen now." When I'm feeling weak and vulnerable, which is usually when the suggestions come, it makes it a lot easier to do the suggested thing if the suggester participates in making it happen. Sometimes it's just a subtle difference, but it feels like a difference between "Buck up and be strong" and "Let me help you be strong." Both can come from a place of genuine care (and both can be manipulative, depending on the character and intent of the advice-giver). But the latter fits better with how I'm built.

As Daisy indicated, ESEs can have similar "let me help you be strong" approach, which can be very effective for us Se-PoLRs. Si egos are hands-on in their help. It's a lot easier to take advice from someone who is willing to get their hands dirty along with me and who will help cover my weak areas. Like Daisy's ESE friend who 1) listened empathetically, 2) did something practical herself to protect Daisy, and then 3) gave advice.

LIEs are also more comfortable with push-pull interactions. LSEs can be very bossy, don't get me wrong. But healthy ones aren't usually in it for the sake of feeling powerful and dominating. If you tell them, "Hey, I'm feeling pushed around here," they'll more likely than not go, "Oh, sorry," and look confused and then try to adapt so you feel better. Provided, of course, that your feelings are valuable to them, lol. But if an LSE is giving customized advice, chances are they care about your feelings.

LIEs are a teensy bit more likely to be intuitively responsive to how people feel, particularly if the other person is Fi (aka is giving them what they like). But they do enjoy that certain element of power exchanges. Again, it can be subtle, but in raw moments it's felt more strongly by me. I don't enjoy being pushed around or pushing others around and can get very touchy about it.


3. EII + SLE:

Being weak in Se, it's comforting to have someone around who manages the external environment for me and runs interference with the harsher parts of life. Someone who is competent in that plus who shows signs of caring about me enough to do that for me is appealing. Kind-hearted SLEs (despite some common stereotypes, they do exist, and more often than Deltas might think!) can start off acting like that - protective. And often they continue to try to do so. But they expect different behavior from me in return than I'm built to comfortably do. They want me to relish trying out being strong in those ways. Which sometimes it's fun to play around with. But that's not how I want to live. I also like more steadiness than they tend to be comfortable with

If I didn't have awareness of myself, of SLEs, and of the types of people that fit better with me then it might be easier to try to stick around SLEs more. They have the same basic skill-set of LSEs but way different values. So I could see how an EII who doesn't have a vocabulary for what they want could get confused and attach themselves to a SLE.

I'm also lucky in that my family background did a lot to establish me in my own personhood. I have a relatively strong sense of self (even with my E9ness). So EIIs who are less sure of who they are and what they need could find it harder to know if a SLE isn't the best fit. Over the years I've gotten increasingly better at sizing people up and knowing if they'd fit well with my interaction styles or not. (If they don't, they're not bad people! And I'm still friendly with them. I just don't expect them to meet certain needs of mine.)




Disclaimer: I'm a happily feminine EII and enneagram 9, so your mileage may vary. Generally and when I'm healthy, I don't mind being "soft" and seen as such.

[Zero]

It's the LIE's Ni. It feels like too strong and narrow an assessment of a person. It seems to jump to a conclusion about a person too quickly and the EII's Ne is like "Nooo look at all these other possibilties of why this person can be this or that, you don't know for sure why they are the way they are." EII might defend the person and say "He's just going through a hard time and dealing with past traumas." LIE would jump to the conclusion and say "He's a psychopath." I guess it simply just feels unfair and judgmental to make a call on what a person IS based off one or two traits or incidences when you barely know them. Ni egos tend to make that leap about people very quickly when they first meet them, Ne egos do not like that.
But yea over time with the EII themselves see more and more evidence they will come to their own conclusion, perhaps the LIE just gets there faster while the EII holds out, innocent till proven guilty I guess.

I also recognize my own draw to SLEs, even knowing what they are made of. The feeling tends to override the logic there, and you want to hope it will be better than what you think I guess. But EIIs who don't know socionics might feel like "Oh my god I never felt this way about anyone." and get with an SLE despite knowing they are wrong for them, I think it's a matter of just yielding to that strong feeling.

Not exactly sure why EIIs might shrug off that advice you said, but I do know that some LIE advice tends to encourage one to do hard inconvenient work for long amounts of time lol, probably advice based in Te, Ni and Se, and that can feel inconvenient to an EII. LSE advice tends to sound more convenient like "All you have to do is take this pill once a week.", there advice usually sounds super easy to implement. Also the advice you said sounds like you are super sure the person will get dehydrated, and an EII might think " I did this before and I haven't gotten dehydrated, you don't know fore sure that i will." Like that super sureness (even if you are right and EII learns later on) seems restricting to EII, and they prefer to have a benefit of the doubt, in this case the benefit would be not having to remember to drink water, it's not a big deal but it's simply just easier(but I am also speaking as an EII with e9 in my tritype). LSE might word this more in a way to be prepared, like, drink water so you don't get dehydrated, making dehydration seem more like a possibility and not a promised outcome, like "Do this just in case." That appeals to Ne, to be prepared for a possible outcome, than to worry about the inevitable outcome which seems more Ni based and isn't valued by EII, hence the shrugging the shoulders. Minor difference in wording when saying do this because else X will happen (implying X is what happens 100% of the time, Ne usually resists being 100% sure about most things) vs do this so X doesn't happen( implying X might happen but isn't sure to happen, very Ne based and well received when presented as a possibility) . Ni usually makes me scream 'YOU DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE!" Even if the person is inevitably right, I just naturally react that way until I see it for myself. I imagine LSE's just incase approach might not work on an ESI who wants to know what's the mostly likely outcome and less concerned about unlikely possibilities.

Great and very helpful answer thank you. Why isn't there a like button on your post?

Well the problem is most of the time I see Ne can be a waste of time. the thought process is: well if we already have evidence that X is the most likely outcome of the current situation, then why should we waste our time choosing other options? But if everyone thought like this world would be chaotic, so types have to balance eachother in a way right?

I will use your advice on rephrasing my sentences and let you know if it worked better with the EIIs (:

[Zero]

I'm not sure if I'm EII or IEE, but I relate to this so much, I have this tendency as well. I fell into a relation with someone who was abusive with me and blamed for all their abusive actions even accused me of being the abusive one. Theyy apologize to me, I forgive then they act very cruel with me again with no feeling of remose later. I stayed because I had pity for them and I could see them becoming a better person, I have seen some good traits in them and wanted to focus on that. But all my attemps each time failed and they ended up ruining my life and completely misunderstanding my motives which was destructive for me. My friend who knows about it told me countless times to never talk to them again, but I couldn't because I kept seeing how the situation will be if they actually felt remose and decided to improve themselves. I always had this perfect reaction I wanted to see from them, but sadly it didn't happen. When I felt like all my attempts were in vain, I got very sad and called them out on all their shitty, unethical traits but inside I was still hoping they would feel remose, but no they didn't...

When I had enough of the abuse, I called my ESE friend and told her all what happened with details and cried my eyes out, she called them and made them learn a lesson and told them to never approach me again (which was a relief), she even threatned them that if they approach me again she would do what they don't expect. She advised me to start enjoying life and not waste my time on people who don't deserve/appreciate what you do for them...

Actually you made me think now. I do this as well when I really like someone. And believe me the LIE, when they really like someone, they have such great hopes and plans with them that they really can forgive alot, being sure they are strong enough to get away at any time, or have enough power to get revenge, underestimating feelings... But it is in a very different way than a EII. However yes ESIs also have the trait of saving LIE from "false friends"

You surely sound like an IEE by the way. I knew an IEE friend which the exact same thing happened to and she even made a court case for that person and dealt with a lot of hassle only for believing too much in humanity

[Zero]

Fi and Ne doesn't give you idea of what people are made of in first place. Another thing, it's not only EII fault but also SLE fault.
Why they stick together? Well it depends on the story, for example, the SLE guy is studying in another city, visiting EII only on weekends, only to make love and babies. Then he moves with EII to new flat and the truth comes out, but it's too late - there are kids. Both feel they would continue it and some fights once a day occur, SLE lives in another room, EII serves sex once a while, and they live "happily" ever after. True story. And the kids were ILE and ESI, also conflict. So it was fun all along, and there was happy end for everyone. Just kidding, happy ends are for holywood movies ;-)

Not sure what you meant there... The EII had kids from another relationship? Or the SLE had? That's like a nightmare, didn't they even talk?

[Kernel]

However yes ESIs also have the trait of saving LIE from "false friends"

I wasn't close with an LIE before, so that's news for me. Maybe it's about intuition? because sensors will try to remove anything that causes hurt immediatly as they focus more on the present moment not the future or past. An example is my ESE friend, there was someone who did something that hurted her, she gave them another chance, they didn't apologize and repeated it then she just emotionally distanced from them and didn't let herself be affected by them again. For me, it was different, I kept imagining very bright scenarios and what I want to happen and forgot about the pain (for periods) for the sake of those hopes and that perfect relation. But her ways are much healthier.

[silke]

I hope I don't offend anyone by my question, it's merely out of curiosity for how this can be explained in terms of Socioincs. I wonder why if a combination of Fi and Ne is supposed to give someone the ability to assess what others are made of, EIIs usually fall into relations with toxic and unhealthy people, and take no advice on this either. When they want to help a troubled person because they see potential in this person getting better and finding the right direction in life, if you point out the unhealthy traits of this new person and judge him/her, the EII will become defensive and mad at you, not realizing that you mean good and want to save them. Funny part is they often change their minds about that person after a while, and at each point have a very strong and sure opinion about others, not accepting others to change their opinion even by providing facts.

Other personal factors aside and fishing out of socionics theory, that EIIs ignore the negative parts of their relations is not really a combination of Fi and Ne but a consequence of their being Process/Evolutionary type. This means that the EII focuses on future potential development of any relationships (+Fi/+Si) and ignores the past mistreatment. For Result types like LIE this is difficult to understand because Result Fi types like LIE and ESI regularly factor in past misbehavior, as the thinking of Result types frequently loops back, though in case of ESIs as an ethical type they might give you a chance to forgive.

The Process/Result dichotomy is virtually like two sides of the same coin and you only see one side of it, so the motivations and behavior of the other side seems too perplexing.



from http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...ungian_Aspects

[timber]

Who knows bud? We are all just clamoring around trying to find something.

[Sol]

I wonder why if a combination of Fi and Ne is supposed to give someone the ability to assess what others are made of, EIIs usually fall into relations with toxic and unhealthy people, and take no advice on this either.

As I understand, you know a girl which typed as EII and generalized on all EII and their romances in general - her concrete relations with a couple of dudes, which ones you think as bad for her.

You could to mistake in those peoples types.
Hard to say what is on practice as there is no enough data. While from the theory point:

More possibility of bad relations may to have Se valued types, as they have an attitude on self-overcoming by the will. Fe valued may more often fall in relations by external reasons, but not personal sympathies (Fi related).
Fi, Ne help to understand which people are better for you. So EII are expected to choose more often good for them people, including good IR. At least, those should not be worse for them than average people choices. Who looks as "very bad" for you (due to IR or other factors) for them mb ok and objectively common.
Having better abbility to deal with people EII may easier establish acceptable relations with people having higher character problems. But it's doubtful they make close relations with such ones, in general, as they like anyone prefer to choose what is best for them and see the choice not lesser than others.

> When they want to help a troubled person because they see potential in this person getting better and finding the right
direction in life

EII have no inclination to relations which they do not like or an inclination to suffering. They avoid such having Fi ego, like Si ego avoid physical discomfort. If they do a romance - they like it not lesser, than people in average. Base Fi rises the compassion, but own sympathies does not become lesser important.

> Funny part is they often change their minds about that person after a while

As they understand people good, they do not change principle opinions about them often.

> LSEs are supposed to be able to grab EIIs out of such relations, however seems the LIE looks judgmental and selfish in the EIIs eyes when doing the same.

LSE may compete for a woman, like anyone. The specifics of LSE is to act openly and directly, - we say what we feel and what we think. Though this may take some time to understand own feelings and to research the situation.
LIE should not differ much and to look similarly for EII. The difference is LSE mb more assertive and more to use Si ways to charm, may do more criticism from Si region point; while LIE better understand what and when to do, to do more criticism about the tendencies of the relations with other one.
LIE may look more "judgmental and selfish" than LSE in case they do criticism and argue in not EII's valued regions.

> EII is also one of the types most likely to be drawn to their conflictor SLE

They should not due to better understanding of people. Conflictors are attractive on the distance for all types.

> How is the LSE able to grab them out of these relations?

To make them feel better with him.

> They also seem to listen to tips related to health coming from LSE but not the LIE. For example if I remind them to drink water because they're going to be dehydrated or to take their vitamins, take a coat cause it's cold out, they'll just shrug their shoulders, but the LSE has more influence on them in this area.

EII, having good understanding of people, may more trust to Si types in Si regions

> and at each point have a very strong and sure opinion about others, not accepting others to change their opinion even by providing facts

EII will think and may accept your opinion _later_. In case it's facts, indeed. The 1st reaction is negativism, as it's F type - they live by feelings, mostly.

[Allegra]

The two EII's in my life both strongly and unequivocally despise SLE's. Their strong vocal aversion to Se types, which is very unlike their usual soft spoken manners, was the main reason I began to examine the socionics duality theory and see a lot of truth. Incidentally they don't like LIE's either.

Not that two make a good sample size but I am not quite convinced EII's are more prone to falling for the wrong type than others. Conflictors can look awfully similar to duals, and subtypes can also play into it.

Edit to add: possibly instinctual variants play into it too

[Rebelondeck]

EIIs seem to be attracted to people who may be viewed as needing some measure of moralistic guidance or help; also, many EIIs seem to view themselves as competent backyard shrinks. Often, it starts as a project and leads to a relationship because they fail to maintain a doctor-patient detachment. EIIs are best when they don't get too close; their distance vision is superb but their ability to read the fine print leaves a lot to be desired.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Bertrand]

I think EII can get controllled and have a hard time detaching from SEE and other types because when SEE makes moral claims EII takes them seriously, more seriously than they should. SEE needs to be treated like an ILI would, which is to say if whatever comes out is not backed by an inevitable and undeniable form of force it can be criticized ignored or otherwise manipulated into the ground. EII doesn't want to do this and is therefore easily controlled. They constantly try to appeal to a conscience that isn't all there, or to put it more charitably, is guided by logical inputs not (alien) ethical ones. the EII can't countermand it with their program and ends up capitulating at their own expense. if they really wanted to get the upper hand on them they'd have to engage their super ego, which by definition is a kind of illicit move in their mind, a kind of thing they really don't want to have to do

[Lord Pixel]

The two EII's in my life both strongly and unequivocally despise SLE's. Their strong vocal aversion to Se types, which is very unlike their usual soft spoken manners, was the main reason I began to examine the socionics duality theory and see a lot of truth. Incidentally they don't like LIE's either.

Not that two make a good sample size but I am not quite convinced EII's are more prone to falling for the wrong type than others. Conflictors can look awfully similar to duals, and subtypes can also play into it.

Edit to add: possibly instinctual variants play into it too

I think in my case enneagram does influence my attraction to SLE. Some SLEs (8w7s or 8w9s) can come off as intense people, and type 4 EIIs (which is common for EIIs) type 4s are drawn to intense things and people, and the incompatibility with SLEs feels quite intense, hence some type 4 EIIs being drawn to them and simply can't ignore the intensity they give off, some EIIs can mistake this intensity for "meaning" or a reason to be with the person, since they are experiencing strong feelings around them. Also SLEs are aggressor romance styles so they make their interest known, and an EII with a very low amount of forceful will of their own can just go along with the SLEs interest for them, even if the person is wrong for them it's the only person that seems to want to be with them openly. It can be a tragedy really. I have been on a date with a SLE before simply because she pursued me lol, but after that date I knew she was wrong for me lol, this was all before I knew socionics of course.

[Allegra]

I think in my case enneagram does influence my attraction to SLE. Some SLEs (8w7s or 8w9s) can come off as intense people, and type 4 EIIs (which is common for EIIs) type 4s are drawn to intense things and people, and the incompatibility with SLEs feels quite intense, hence some type 4 EIIs being drawn to them and simply can't ignore the intensity they give off, some EIIs can mistake this intensity for "meaning" or a reason to be with the person, since they are experiencing strong feelings around them. Also SLEs are aggressor romance styles so they make their interest known, and an EII with a very low amount of forceful will of their own can just go along with the SLEs interest for them, even if the person is wrong for them it's the only person that seems to want to be with them openly. It can be a tragedy really. I have been on a date with a SLE before simply because she pursued me lol, but after that date I knew she was wrong for me lol, this was all before I knew socionics of course.

Sounds like EII E4s are almost Se dual seeking if they are draw to intensity. EII E4s are more likely EII-Fis possibly, then?

[ooo]

Yep, once, before I knew socionics, I was analyzing a relationship through MBTI and noticed that my now ex was very probably the exact opposite of me, in terms of functions, as we are opposite in everything else. I don't remember what type I decided for him, if ESTP or ESTJ, maybe ISTP too?, but I remember thinking "uhm, interesting how opposites attract", which is one of the axioms of socionics: opposites attract; but if duality is one form of opposition then conflicting is the other main one.

I like a lot the Se in other people, it's something I suck in and can't do myself, so it's good and inspiring to see its (proper) use in someone else. Confidence, strong will, the ability to see things for what they are... what's not good about it? I can't do any of that, I have too many superimpositions. This doesn't mean though that I want someone else to invade my space, or that I can accept that someone tries to make me behave more Se myself. Reason why I appreciate Se, I acknowledge its existence and thanks to it can see how varied is reality, but I don't really aspire to be Se myself and its excess can annoy me, for example when I go through pindaric rambling flights and the person in front of me is stuck in the here and now and doesn't find any reason to delve into the infinite tangents. Or when I just want my time and to do my things comfortably and the other person is over excited and needs to do 100 things or he gets bored and mad at me for not doing anything about it. I guess the perceptive functions deal with our energy, Se is proactive in the sense that it infuses the space around with its concrete energy, whereas a Ne is more focused on a parallel world of alternatives, that obviously steals energy from the here and now. Energy goes into different directions.

I wouldn't say only Se types are bad for EII, people are not bad for each other because of unmatching functions, and some people would even get bored if they had a partner with whom they had to have a perfect compatibility, some frictions can spice things up, and some perfect complementary couples can sometimes make a deadly match.

There have been times when professors got to call my parents in high school because of the people I was hanging out with, and other times where my parents where worried of my friendships, lovers, etc.. and yes, I've never listened to those voices, in some cases they were criticizing the best people I know in my life, in others they were right, but none could have told beforehand anyway, and it's extremely annoying for me to get such advice... However, I remember pretty well that the ex of mine from before once told me to drop some friendships I had, and although I usually never listen to anyone about such things, I did it in that case... so maybe he was a LSE? But yeah, it didn't last.

[Lord Pixel]

Sounds like EII E4s are almost Se dual seeking if they are draw to intensity. EII E4s are more likely EII-Fis possibly, then?

Not sure that's a hard rule, I'm Ne sub type and e4w5 EII. I don't think it's Se dual seeking, because it's more emotional intensity for e4 that they are after not physical intensity, physical intensity just creates more emotional intensity, so thoughnti mmay look like they are after the former they are actually after the latter. They like anything intense, movies, book, some drugs, especially e4 sx first (look at Kurt Cobain). I imagine e4 sx first has the hots for an e8, since they both like intensity. So an e4 sx EII might definetely be drawn to an e8 SLE, and if they are sx first probably even more drawn to them. Like a "I suffer for love" sort of way. The suffering makes the relationship more intense, and the intensity seems to create meaning to an EII, since their most intense desires seem to guide them in life making them think they should chase the desire since it's so strong in them, this same thing causes them to go for a bad relationship, since the desire is so strong, they think it means they should go after it, even if it's an SLE. On top of that, if an SLE is actively pursuing this sort of EII, they are less likely to resist them and let it happen because the feelings are so intense they just let themselves get swept away by them even if it's a bad decision. This can all come tumbling down if their experience an inescapable pattern of abuse, they might leave them for their own safety at that point.

I dated an ILI I knew I should have not dated, all because the feelings felt deep, the ENTIRE relationship I felt like my brain was trying to tell me "You have to leave, you have to leave." and I eventually left, but if I did not give into my feelings I would have never gotten with them, since they had surgery to remove their fertility to have children and I knew I wanted to children, my dumb feelings embraced the relationship anyway.

[Lord Pixel]

I'm not sure SLE/EII conflict is that weird though, but am I speaking from an early exposure to this conflict, so it seems normal to me since I became accustomed to it growing up with an SLE cousin for my first 13 years of life.

The conflict I noticed between male EIIs and SLEs, from encounters of my cousin and other SLEs, seems like a simple conflict. SLE think EII boy is a "bitch, pussy, wimp, doormat", EII thinks SLE is "vulgar, dumb meathead, savage, shallow, bully." Very simple Se/Fi conflict on the surface.

Then you get into like Fi/Fe conflicts. I used to think my cousin and other ESTPs were shallow and "lame" people because they always followed trends and stayed up to current pop-culture and would abandon old trends they used to be so tied too like they meant nothing, switching with the hype, it used to make me sick. Se/Ne conflicts used to manifest as SLEs thinking my Ne was weird or "being extra" as the say in the US. I don't remember any Ti/Te conflicts or Ne/Ni conflicts or any Se/Si conflicts, but I'm sure there were some unconscious irritations going on. I get along with SLEs when they are calling the shots about something I really do not care about lol or when they are trying to help me with something.

[velveteen]

SLEs are just uncouth, wild brutes in my experience. Tbh, I see them as really quite handy and intelligent. If they'd shut their trap for one second and listen, they're fine. For the most part they scream "damaged" from like 10 miles away. I feel bad ragging on them but I do it anyway, then they get all sensitive, like boo hoo, why don't you love me? They'll never express that to you verbally, because it's a sign of weakness. But the hurt, it's written all over their face. I can see how an EII would be drawn to them and try to heal them by giving them unconditional love, thinking they can fix something that doesn't need to be fixed.

Then by the time the EII realises all the SLE needed was a hard smack across the face, they have become a drained, jaded, bitter, cynical version of themselves.

[wasp]

I think this might be a misconception of the delta quadra in general (scratch this line because I ended up going in a completely different direction)

I know that my mom (EII-Fi) has a tendency to display patience and kindness with otherwise difficult people in a way that's misleading to outsiders in the sense that they mistake it as a reflection of her personal feelings toward those individuals, but it's more like she's interacting with ideals (Ne) than those specific individuals, if that makes sense, and it does result in her bending over backwards to maintain pleasant relations with people who otherwise don't "deserve" her patience or kindness, but I think she'd prefer that over the self-flagellation that would take place afterwards if she were to act otherwise. she's mentioned to me several times before that in times of strife with her supervisors at her old workplace, an image of her kids would flash before her eyes, and that alone was enough, not that she ever had difficulty with self-control before we came along, I think it was just an additional motivator.

however I will say that I've noted some of these behaviors in my younger, less experienced EII friends, but I don't know if it's the "wrong" people (as in they're not always outright toxic) so much as it is people who don't sufficiently appreciate them, or people who do appreciate them, but drain their energy reserves regardless, which could be attributed to weak Se and Te (both of which deal with give-take ratios, albeit in different ways) and I think help in this area is closer related to Si than Te, which is why LIEs aren't quite as helpful as LSEs. I imagine Si-creatives as monitoring the comfort of those around them, perhaps just as much as their own comfort, so they're able to discern the EII's (dis)comfort before it goes out of limits unsparingly, whereas I've always thought of Si PoLR as not recognizing these Si cues until it results in an outward manifestation (Se) i.e. where LSE might notice a pale face, and take precautionary measures, an LIE would be oblivious until that sickness comes forth as vomit on the floor, which doesn't even begin to cover the differences but it's the most straightforward example I could come up with. so in short, LIEs probably won't be meeting EIIs' needs by simply advising them to wear a coat because I don't think that's the issue, I mean it's part of it but not the whole thing. it's closer related to their ideals (as in upholding themselves to ridiculous standards in interpersonal settings to the point where it comes at the expense of their personal well-being) and interests (as in getting carried away in their personal interests at the direct expense of their health i.e. lack of sleep) so Si-creating (alternatively I would use comfort-creating) might be something more along the lines of pulling them outside to garden or hike, exposing them to nature, and bringing them down from cloud NiNe, so instead of working endlessly on humanitarian problems, whether their own or those of others, they can just relax and enjoy the moment.

it's similar to what Si-leads can do for Ne-leads but Si-leads place more emphasis on monitoring their own comfort, which is what creates their characteristic Si "calmness" because if they were to become aggressive, then they would compromise their comfort, and so they "stay within themselves" (I can't think of a better expression for this atm) and I think this self-restraint has a calming effect on Ne-leads, it's like a transference of tranquility, because they have a tendency to act childlike, as per socionics descriptions, which is more akin to the intuitive "reality unfiltered is kinda frightening" response to "directness", which would be interpreted more painfully via Se language than Si language. I've also known my Ne-lead friends (especially IEE) to struggle with anhedonia, however I'm less sure of my Ne-creative friends, but it's another area where I believe Si-egos can offer Ne-egos assistance.

ok I got carried away, but essentially the second long paragraph is how I imagine LSEs help EIIs since they can sort of recognize beforehand if an interpersonal arrangement is causing them significant discomfort, even if it's not directly expressed, and so they pull them away via other distracting activities, and I think their directness helps them in the sense that if they notice other people still making moves toward the EII, then they can more firmly and confidently keep them at bay. it's hard to explain but I've always seen that directness (or rather, a certain comfort in the physical realm) as a trademark of S-N duality, so like you'd be less surprised if an LSE were to say, "oh I think my wife and I are gonna go home early tonight, sorry folks" than if you were to hear an EII say the same thing, partially because it'd have less impact in the EII's case since you may feel like you can convince them otherwise due to their nature, but mostly because it's a little daunting to hear an otherwise gentle person randomly stand their ground, if that makes sense, but if it comes from someone who's known to be more obstinate, then most people tend to stand back. I imagine SLEs can have a similar effect due to their protective, somewhat territorial nature, but the difference may lie in their approach to such matters, and it's not always easy to discern in the beginning if it's the "right" approach since LSE and SLE share a lot of base similarities. I've read that it's usually not until "push comes to shove" that you realize what your dual (or alternatively, your conflictor) is actually made of, and sometimes it may simply take us a while to realize what we truly need.

on a quick side note, I do think Te factors into this just as much as Si but I wanted to outline the differences between LIE and LSE, specifically.

[Bertrand]

yeah I think in general ethical introverts can lead themselves into all sorts of zany self harming scenarios and what logical extroverts sort of do is shape the environment to keep them more on the rails, while still being able to do good within that area. when its tyrannical its like a prison, but when its good its synergistic because its within that area that everyone really can do their best. the deal with conflictors is they have a tendency to want to put you in the area where you're least effective and so forth

[Lord Pixel]

I think this might be a misconception of the delta quadra in general (scratch this line because I ended up going in a completely different direction)



ok I got carried away, but essentially the second long paragraph is how I imagine LSEs help EIIs since they can sort of recognize beforehand if an interpersonal arrangement is causing them significant discomfort, even if it's not directly expressed, and so they pull them away via other distracting activities, and I think their directness helps them in the sense that if they notice other people still making moves toward the EII, then they can more firmly and confidently keep them at bay. it's hard to explain but I've always seen that directness (or rather, a certain comfort in the physical realm) as a trademark of S-N duality, so like you'd be less surprised if an LSE were to say, "oh I think my wife and I are gonna go home early tonight, sorry folks" than if you were to hear an EII say the same thing, partially because it'd have less impact in the EII's case since you may feel like you can convince them otherwise due to their nature, but mostly because it's a little daunting to hear an otherwise gentle person randomly stand their ground, if that makes sense, but if it comes from someone who's known to be more obstinate, then most people tend to stand back. I imagine SLEs can have a similar effect due to their protective, somewhat territorial nature, but the difference may lie in their approach to such matters, and it's not always easy to discern in the beginning if it's the "right" approach since LSE and SLE share a lot of base similarities. I've read that it's usually not until "push comes to shove" that you realize what your dual (or alternatively, your conflictor) is actually made of, and sometimes it may simply take us a while to realize what we truly need.

Yes, exactly. I pictured that scenario very clearly in my head. And the issue is if the gentle person is trying to be convinced out of standing their ground it tends to feel like someone is unintentionally trying to provoke you TO GO OFF ON THEM! And I do not want to do that, so please, when I say no I want to leave just respect my freedom to make that choice. In general any unconscious suggestions to either use Se or surrender to someone's Se always seems like it's trying to provoke inappropriate behavior. When someone says stand up for you self to a bully or someone who is mistreating you, my mind cannot really picuture how to do that healthily, it's either I think nothing or I think of applying some inappropriate amount of force to deal with the problem which usually results in thoughts of physical violence, acts I wouldn't be bold enough to perform of course, so these suggestions are always misinterpreted when people say them, though people may think they are giving sound advice. I think the Se POLR does make for very polarizing uses of Se, no use at all or too much use. I guess this confirms what most say about EIIs, Se Polr, and Polrs in general.

[Delilah]

@Zero, i haven't noticed EII falling into relationships with people who are bad for them - at least not as a rule/pattern. I do however agree with @Minde that it's possible that other people might sense the reliability in EII and might take advantage of that. I noticed this in a relation between an EII and ESE i used to know where the ESE was essentially bossing the EII around.

[Rebelondeck]

........it's possible that other people might sense the reliability in EII and might take advantage of that. I noticed this in a relation between an EII and ESE i used to know where the ESE was essentially bossing the EII around.

It's not typical for EIIs to allow themselves to be actually bossed around unless they're insecure or physically threatened - or have a plan. Most Ijs are largely predictable and in that sense they're reliable and one can rely on the fact that most Ijs have lots of self-interest so being bossed around usually leads to an advantage......

a.k.a. I/O

[Delilah]

It's not typical for EIIs to allow themselves to be actually bossed around unless they're insecure or physically threatened - or have a plan. Most Ijs are largely predictable and in that sense they're reliable and one can rely on the fact that most Ijs have lots of self-interest so being bossed around usually leads to an advantage......

a.k.a. I/O

I don't really see all Ixxjs as the same, but in the case of EII being bossed around by ESE seemed exactly so from my outsider's perspective though likely EII didn't think of it as such herself for a while. But the EII years later did complain to me about her relation to ESE so i do make a point based on both personal observation and perspective and fact.

[Rebelondeck]

I don't really see all Ixxjs as the same, but in the case of EII being bossed around by ESE seemed exactly so from my outsider's perspective though likely EII didn't think of it as such herself for a while. But the EII years later did complain to me about her relation to ESE so i do make a point based on both personal observation and perspective and fact.

I don't see them as the same either but most are routinized in different ways and thus somewhat predictable. Self-interest is in there too in that they would like things to go in their preconceived directions. It's odd for an EII not to immediately notice being ordered around; they tend to almost insist on autonomy and a certain amount of distance. I can see maybe an Ip not noticing - for a short while......

a.k.a. I/O

[Delilah]

I don't see them as the same either but most are routinized in different ways and thus somewhat predictable. Self-interest is in there too in that they would like things to go in their preconceived directions. It's odd for an EII not to immediately notice being ordered around; they tend to almost insist on autonomy and a certain amount of distance. I can see maybe an Ip not noticing - for a short while......

a.k.a. I/O

Well this was back in college and my best guess is some peer pressure is involved. The ESE was quite popular. I don't think EII would regularly fall for something like that, as i said it's not a rule/pattern, but it has been known to happen. Just life is a mixed bag sometimes.

[Aramas]

EIIs find themselves in bad situations because they idealize people and typically are less aware than average of the harsher side of human nature. They are too willing to see excuses as valid and they continue seeing people as good in spite of evidence to the contrary. Ne creative plus positivism makes for the most reality ignoring type in existence.

[Adam Strange]

EIIs find themselves in bad situations because they idealize people and typically are less aware than average of the harsher side of human nature. They are too willing to see excuses as valid and they continue seeing people as good in spite of evidence to the contrary. Ne creative plus positivism makes for the most reality ignoring type in existence.

In all fairness, if your dual were @Sol, ignoring reality would be a very good thing.

.................................................. .................................................. .............

Actually, since LSE's are incredibly grounded in reality, being ungrounded would not be a problem for the EII if they were dualized.

Sol, you owe it to some EII's to dualize with them and save them from a terrible life. Don't wait too long in this endeavor.

Truthfully, the EII whom I work with really, really likes the LSE whom I work with. He's strong and is a good man, and she likes that. Unfortunately for both of them, he is already married.....

[Guillaine]

EII's are tolerant, and kind, so I can see this happening at least for a little while, and have seen it. But there is a self-preserving aspect of introversion whereby at least they can, or are aiming toward, getting some head space and reflect on their lives, and make choices, and know how they feel about what's going on, even if they don't feel they have the strength to stop it. IEE's can also get into lots of trouble in this way (my personal experience) because lack of awareness of how we are feeling, what we are thinking and what our body is feeling too. IN some ways I think extraversion can have a certain vulnerable side because it keeps exposing itself and the wrong person can take their optimism and future orientation for a long ride.

[Sol]

In all fairness, if your dual were Sol, ignoring reality would be a very good thing.

It's not good, but the side effect of F types.

Logical side of the _objective_ reality is Te. My duals do not tend to ignore this like Fe types, as it's valued.
But all F types are weak in understanding it. Fi types may be more than average selective to positive sides in case they feel sympathy - it's not intentional, such happens due to weak T. The same but with negative selection happens for the ones to which they feel antipathy. If you point them on logical mistakes or the ways to improve in Te - the chance they'll accept your opinion after a time is higher than for Fe types.

As EII are N types, they understand people and situations good, in general. This softens this effect.
In case of ESI it's more evident - they are more surface, so show more of prejustice for good or bad. Partly ESI compensate this by being suspicious - they harder to like you, easier to be scared and may change the positive opinion to negative more abruptly. In the same time they have high self-criticism and compassion, so they may forgive you easier too, sometimes showing some naiveness which N types have lesser.

> Actually, since LSE's are incredibly grounded in reality, being ungrounded would not be a problem for the EII if they were dualized.

They'll have the conflict with the unconscious, which keeps Te and its facts which may contradict to what they think and such to create the neurotization.
The dual activates the supressed Te so it becomes easier to understand and to solve some of the conflicts, dual helps to solve himself and to reduce new conflicts, activation of supressed unconscious unleashes its energy for the conscious and you feel better.

> Sol, you owe it to some EII's to dualize with them and save them from a terrible life. Don't wait too long in this endeavor.

I may catch some ESI. Do not be greedy. EII appear to be harder to be found. For example, on the forums I did not noticed even one assured EII still, while as minimum 2 ESI women. I meet ESI sellers regularly, but EII seems hide in libraries, museums, etc. places my "grounded" soul visits much much lesser.
In return, EII may [partly] save me from problems of weak N and F, like not good emotions and redundant worries. Also the important plus of EII is lesser need in money by the principle "just now and more". But... mb the destiny thinks this would be too good for me.

> Truthfully, the EII whom I work with really, really likes the LSE whom I work with. He's strong and is a good man, and she likes that. Unfortunately for both of them, he is already married

If to assume the possibility they may to have other types, the situation will look as lesser sad.

[Rebelondeck]

EII's are tolerant, and kind.......

For all types, the majority are tolerant and don't want to cause harm. However, there are few saints and I've seen many dark-sides, such as EIIs being very self-righteous, and deliberately trying to discredit others in underhanded ways. EIIs tend to focus on the forest and lose sight of the trees....

a.k.a. I/O

[Bertrand]

we need more bad EIIs in popular fiction

I want to see what evil Dostoevsky is like, and not just Nietzsche, because its not evil-dostoy its just his quasi which is different. There's even a whole line of thinking where people say Dostoy was EIE anyway, its like can we get some clarity on this very important issue. Maybe they're just evil in a banality of evil sort of way, like the person behind the LSE who goes to work every day and gasses the jews. typically that kind of role is reserved for ESI but what about EII. I want to read the treatise and witness the dream world of the humanist who thinks this is somehow justified and proper or if not either of those things at the very least inevitable, but now we digress into EIE territory once again...

[Spermatozoa]

we need more bad EIIs in popular fiction

I want to see what evil Dostoevsky is like, and not just Nietzsche, because its not evil-dostoy its just his quasi which is different. There's even a whole line of thinking where people say Dostoy was EIE anyway, its like can we get some clarity on this very important issue. Maybe they're just evil in a banality of evil sort of way, like the person behind the LSE who goes to work every day and gasses the jews. typically that kind of role is reserved for ESI but what about EII. I want to read the treatise and witness the dream world of the humanist who thinks this is somehow justified and proper or if not either of those things at the very least inevitable, but now we digress into EIE territory once again...

Take any PMSing #MeToo feminist, imagine them with political power, and behold! Your inspiration.

Once I have finished my training, I intend to write an opera with the kind of villain that you've just described. In my view, the most dangerous villain is the one who sincerely believes that they are on a quest to make the world fairer and more equal, but all they end up removing is our freedom to express ourselves as unique individuals. The end (a dystopia where nobody is better off than anybody else) justifies the means. I am glad to see that you don't underestimate the dangers of this myopic dream, because it is a very real problem.

[timber]

Take any PMSing #MeToo feminist, imagine them with political power, and behold! Your inspiration.

Once I have finished my training, I intend to write an opera with the kind of villain that you've just described. In my view, the most dangerous villain is the one who sincerely believes that they are on a quest to make the world fairer and more equal, but all they end up removing is our freedom to express ourselves as unique individuals. The end (a dystopia where nobody is better off than anybody else) justifies the means. I am glad to see that you don't underestimate the dangers of this myopic dream, because it is a very real problem.

Yeah sounds good and the benevolent yet ominious and forbodding Court Magician Petterson can warn the Kingdom and the Court that at their peril they do not heed his warning: the end is neigh and their freedoms are soon to be obliterated....! Oh my wat a nightmare I surely hope not I surely surely do.

[Spermatozoa]

Yeah sounds good and the benevolent yet ominious and forbodding Court Magician Petterson can warn the Kingdom and the Court that at their peril they do not heed his warning: the end is neigh and their freedoms are soon to be obliterated....! Oh my wat a nightmare I surely hope not I surely surely do.

Actually, my hero will be nothing like Peterson. When you first meet the protagonist, you'll probably hate him because I want to prove a point, which is that virtue signalling is never a good way to judge someone's character. Faith alone won't get you into heaven.