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Thread: Se and Si

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    Default Se and Si

    I know some of you have difficulty distinguishing here we go... @totalize @rougerogue

    When I ask an Se and Si type to describe me in my avatar I get this

    Se- you look like you have a fake smile; the authenticity is based on external circumstances; the external characteristics of the things themselves "x is a fake look and therefore x is a fake smile"
    Like how you can look at a plastic plant and say it looks fake because of how it looks on the outside.

    Si- you look pleasant; Si thinks more about how what they see makes them feel; they focus on the feelings things evoke; Si is judging how you fee from the picture, or how the picture makes them feel.


    So why does Se say you look fake when Se is about external statics like color texture etc? Because Se is also about perceiving how something shaped and is shaped or shaping their external appearance.

    Si- values the inside behavior, not the external appearance so no looking real or fake for Si type because what is valued is effort and sincerity and that can be seen.

    Default
    Circumstances: Is it that a person is an alcoholic because they are drunk or because they have lots of alcohol around them?



    Si is going to look at the fact that someone is drunk acting

    Se that someone has alcohol around them
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-21-2016 at 04:42 AM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Terrible example in so many ways

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    I don't understand the comparison. A fake smile isn't a static appearance; that's a subject impression of something's authenticity.

    Also If I thought it was fake I wouldn't have said it was pleasant. It just doesn't look fake to me. Additionally I don't think I said your smile was pleasant alone. There were other aspects to it.
    CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM

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    I get the reference and sure, if one is sensation and maybe you got your smile becouse you do that face when you get a nice sensation while Se force want you to share the same experience just to be sure you understand each other. Maybe it can be circle around with Ne and Ni.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    I don't understand the comparison. A fake smile isn't a static appearance; that's a subject impression of something's authenticity.

    Also If I thought it was fake I wouldn't have said it was pleasant. It just doesn't look fake to me. Additionally I don't think I said your smile was pleasant alone. There were other aspects to it.
    That's exactly the case. It doesn't look fake to you and it is Se because the authenticity is based on external circumstances
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    back for the time being Chae's Avatar
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    This is how I approached the matter:
    fake smiles are perceived as such when the teeth are flashed but there´s no "eye smile" at the same time, compare the left image with the one in the middle:



    Maritsa's avatar shows open eyes that don't crinkle at the sides, case solved.

    ---> +.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Circumstances: Is it that a person is an alcoholic because they are drunk or because they have lots of alcohol around them?



    Si is going to look at the fact that someone is drunk acting

    Se that someone has alcohol around them
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    it's ok, everything will be fine totalize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    That's exactly the case. It doesn't look fake to you and it is Se because the authenticity is based on external circumstances
    I still don't understand.

    will never comment on something being fake unless it thinks the internal qualities are fake, whereas will never comment on something being authentic unless it looks authentic?

    I'm not saying you are wrong, just this is an extremely confusing example for me.
    CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    I still don't understand.

    will never comment on something being fake unless it thinks the internal qualities are fake, whereas will never comment on something being authentic unless it looks authentic?

    I'm not saying you are wrong, just this is an extremely confusing example for me.
    No if someone acts drunk they probably are and if someone has alcohol around them they are probably alcoholic

    I never had food at home and my SEE brother would call me anorexic but I never acted like I didn't eat. I ate out still the circumstance is no food at home
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Circumstances: Is it that a person is an alcoholic because they are drunk or because they have lots of alcohol around them?



    Si is going to look at the fact that someone is drunk acting

    Se that someone has alcohol around them
    No I do not think that is fair to say. It is more of hundreds of little things and a matrix.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    No I do not think that is fair to say. It is more of hundreds of little things and a matrix.
    If you have examples I would love to hear them. I do have a tendency to pick targeted examples and stick to over simplified version, my apologies
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    If you have examples I would love to hear them. I do have a tendency to pick targeted examples and stick to over simplified version, my apologies
    It would explain some things what you are saying. Im no sensor. If I were to determent if someone is drunk it would be an infinite balance weight with motivation to fake it and the effort to do so. But you are not saying I can just stack some cans of unopened beers next to me and all the Se leads with think im drunk/alcoholic?

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    It would explain some things what you are saying. Im no sensor. If I were to determent if someone is drunk it would be an infinite balance weight with motivation to fake it and the effort to do so. But you are not saying I can just stack some cans of unopened beers next to me and all the Se leads with think im drunk/alcoholic?
    Well from real life examples my SEE brother was around my ex who drank till he passed out only on the weekends when they were around each other and my SEE brother said "he's an alcoholic" or the momentary explanation of my other ex who said "I cut the guy off in traffic because he was being an ass" led my SEE niece to tell him "you're a mean guy"
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Well from real life examples my SEE brother was around my ex who drank till he passed out only on the weekends when they were around each other and my SEE brother said "he's an alcoholic" or the momentary explanation of my other ex who said "I cut the guy off in traffic because he was being an ass" led my SEE niece to tell him "you're a mean guy"
    SEE have the HA "I know stuff" based on weak facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    This is how I approached the matter:
    fake smiles are perceived as such when the teeth are flashed but there´s no "eye smile" at the same time, compare the left image with the one in the middle:



    Maritsa's avatar shows open eyes that don't crinkle at the sides, case solved.

    ---> +.
    So does this mean you are Se-ego like me?

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    Is being very attentative to colors ("look at that red car!", "what a cool green shirt you have") and being crazy good at recognizing people's faces and remembering their facial features - for example being somewhere once and remembering everybody that's been there forever - Is that good Se or Si? Weird example, but I have a specific person in mind who does this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Is being very attentative to colors ("look at that red car!", "what a cool green shirt you have") and being crazy good at recognizing people's faces and remembering their facial features - for example being somewhere once and remembering everybody that's been there forever - Is that good Se or Si? Weird example, but I have a specific person in mind who does this.
    Im not sure the color itself is a sensation. Strong white colors and black contrast. Red could be associated with danger and other stuff and is more in the area of intuition?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Im not sure the color itself is a sensation. Strong white colors and black contrast. Red could be associated with danger and other stuff and is more in the area of intuition?
    The person I'm talking about is 100% a sensor and I'm pretty sure Se or Si dominant. I only meet him at parties and thus don't know him well enough to decide. He makes this weird comments about colors especially when drunk and always comments where he's already seen someone that's at the party before (he has crazy memory for faces). I've never heard someone make such observations before, so it got me wondering. He also comments on textures of things sometimes, but that's Si as far I understand.

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    my cynical view of Si is that it's like a sockpuppet, paraded in front of your eyes to distract you from a lack of underlying substance. as a mentality it is one concerned with surface appearances and no regard for integrity. not caring whether you really are X but sufficing with posing as it and presuming your observers and judges are similarly forgiving. Se is where you walk the walk to the talk that Si talks.
    Awful possibility in these matters is both men sustaining mortal injury... but I'm never that lucky.

    LSI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    That's exactly the case. It doesn't look fake to you and it is Se because the authenticity is based on external circumstances
    Is it?

    Judgment of authenticity is a subject impression. Value-statements about things which are unique, authentic, fake, beautiful, etc is a subject sensory impression. According to Jung, anyway. Whether Augusta modified this I do not know. This is why it is confusing to me.
    CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Is being very attentative to colors ("look at that red car!", "what a cool green shirt you have") and being crazy good at recognizing people's faces and remembering their facial features - for example being somewhere once and remembering everybody that's been there forever - Is that good Se or Si? Weird example, but I have a specific person in mind who does this.

    (...)

    The person I'm talking about is 100% a sensor and I'm pretty sure Se or Si dominant. I only meet him at parties and thus don't know him well enough to decide. He makes this weird comments about colors especially when drunk and always comments where he's already seen someone that's at the party before (he has crazy memory for faces). I've never heard someone make such observations before, so it got me wondering. He also comments on textures of things sometimes, but that's Si as far I understand.
    Good Se will have good Si too. So it's not that easy lol. Why he's doing it would say more on which one is conscious for him.

    I'd be able to recognize someone from before which isn't the same as recalling their face in very great detail. Which is it for him?

    I'm going to say the fact he remembers all people points towards Feeling type. As for the colours, the way he makes the comments again points towards that (see more below too). As for him being Alpha SF or Gamma SF, good question... But if I had to guess, Alpha SF more?

    Why do you find these comments weird btw (red car, green shirt)? To me they just seem like coming from someone who's excited and wants to share that excitement. I see nothing weird about it but I would not do it too much myself. Again I think strong Feeling here lol


    Quote Originally Posted by bricktop View Post
    my cynical view of Si is that it's like a sockpuppet, paraded in front of your eyes to distract you from a lack of underlying substance. as a mentality it is one concerned with surface appearances and no regard for integrity. not caring whether you really are X but sufficing with posing as it and presuming your observers and judges are similarly forgiving. Se is where you walk the walk to the talk that Si talks.
    Concrete example of where Si talks the talk like this?

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    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Is being very attentative to colors ("look at that red car!", "what a cool green shirt you have") and being crazy good at recognizing people's faces and remembering their facial features - for example being somewhere once and remembering everybody that's been there forever - Is that good Se or Si? Weird example, but I have a specific person in mind who does this.
    that's what little kids do. and adults sometimes do with young kids. it's ick, but alpha for adults to do probably

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan View Post
    that's what little kids do. and adults sometimes do with young kids. it's ick, but alpha for adults to do probably
    You use Se Satan because in the chat the other day when I mentioned I only eat 850 calories you said "you're anorexic "
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I know some of you have difficulty distinguishing here we go... @totalize @rougerogue

    When I ask an Se and Si type to describe me in my avatar I get this

    Se- you look like you have a fake smile; the authenticity is based on external circumstances
    Si- you look pleasant
    I was thinking that you have boobs. Where does that place me.


    So why does Se say you look fake when Se is about external statics like color texture etc? Because Se is also about perceiving how something shaped and is shaped or shaping their external appearance.

    Si- values the inside behavior, not the external appearance so no looking real or fake for Si type because what is valued is effort and sincerity and that can be seen.
    I'm tempted to say that there's T and F involved in "describing" someone. And that Si/Se are just about recognising things.

    Default
    Circumstances: Is it that a person is an alcoholic because they are drunk or because they have lots of alcohol around them?



    Si is going to look at the fact that someone is drunk acting

    Se that someone has alcohol around them
    There was a cool demonstration of how easy it is to not notice alcohol addiction in people sometimes.

    https://www.instagram.com/louise.delage/?hl=en


    Some people don't show their drunk acting, and do their drinking alone, so you may only be able to pick it up while they're less intoxicated. And sometimes it may have to be inferred from things like not appearing at events that have no alcohol.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan View Post
    I was thinking that you have boobs. Where does that place me.

    So why does Se say you look fake when Se is about external statics like color texture etc? Because Se is also about perceiving how something shaped and is shaped or shaping their external appearance.

    Si- values the inside behavior, not the external appearance so no looking real or fake for Si type because what is valued is effort and sincerity and that can be seen.
    [/quote]

    I'm tempted to say that there's T and F involved in "describing" someone. And that Si/Se are just about recognising things.



    There was a cool demonstration of how easy it is to not notice alcohol addiction in people sometimes.

    https://www.instagram.com/louise.delage/?hl=en


    Some people don't show their drunk acting, and do their drinking alone, so you may only be able to pick it up while they're less intoxicated. And sometimes it may have to be inferred from things like not appearing at events that have no alcohol.[/QUOTE]

    All very true
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by rougerogue View Post
    So does this mean you are Se-ego like me?
    yes and also looking at a fake plant and telling that it looks fake is an example of Se too; also both ESE and LSE can tell a fake thing too because they can apprehend these statics as well
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    yes and also looking at a fake plant and telling that it looks fake is an example of Se too; also both ESE and LSE can tell a fake thing too because they can apprehend these statics as well
    My question to @Chae was sarcastic.
    Pointing out that a smile is fake doesn't seem type related. It depends upon whether a person has the knowledge to tell whether a person is faking a smile and whether he/she cares.
    I'm interested in body language because I care about understanding other people and not allowing unchecked body language faux pas to hinder my communication. I don't think that is particularly Se related either.
    In our PMs, you made it sound like you were confirming my type but really it appears that you are just gathering more evidence to mistype me despite my effort to express how I actually think about my type.

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    = power, being able to "take care" of others and control them.
    = comfort, being able to "take care" of yourself and control yourself.

    That's it. Let's stop making and about faking whatever and are. I don't think even MBTI is quite that bad.

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    Okay Maritsa I don't want you to take this the wrong way but...

    Your forum avatar picture feels like it's trolling me. Like you are jumping out at me in this cartoonishly funny way. I think Radio understood this well or something. It's like you are popping out in 3D. And ahhh you are just there!

    I see EIE as a better type for you than EII.

    I see why other people are bothered so much by you because in a such a raw base way, you are invading their boundaries? So simplistic but photos of you make it so clear. That's why I love images more than written psychoanalytical observations.

    (I'm a very sensual and tactile person that likes being touched so I don't mind it as much as some others (though I still prefer if you would tone it down a notch haha), it might also be some heart triad thing)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Good Se will have good Si too. So it's not that easy lol. Why he's doing it would say more on which one is conscious for him.

    I'd be able to recognize someone from before which isn't the same as recalling their face in very great detail. Which is it for him?

    I'm going to say the fact he remembers all people points towards Feeling type. As for the colours, the way he makes the comments again points towards that (see more below too). As for him being Alpha SF or Gamma SF, good question... But if I had to guess, Alpha SF more?

    Why do you find these comments weird btw (red car, green shirt)? To me they just seem like coming from someone who's excited and wants to share that excitement. I see nothing weird about it but I would not do it too much myself. Again I think strong Feeling here lol
    Thanks a lot Myst It's not weird in itself, just the frequency he does it (otherwise I wouldn't even notice it) - like you said, it's like an excited little kid pointing at things Actually, I was deciding between SEE or SLI for this person (I'm pretty sure he's not Fe ego), but leaning towards first one - not based on these comments alone, but his interaction in group. He seems irrational and ethical, but I was wondering if this points towards Si.

    About the faces - no, he just recognizes faces, not the details (at least I think - "oh, I recognize you from before, you're dating that girl I went to class with"... ). It's fascinating to me, because I'm very bad at it, unless someone is either super interesting, if I consciously stare at someone and decide I'm going to remember them or more likely, if I stare because I want to creepily VI them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I know some of you have difficulty distinguishing here we go... @totalize @rougerogue

    When I ask an Se and Si type to describe me in my avatar I get this

    Se- you look like you have a fake smile; the authenticity is based on external circumstances; the external characteristics of the things themselves "x is a fake look and therefore x is a fake smile"
    Like how you can look at a plastic plant and say it looks fake because of how it looks on the outside.

    Si- you look pleasant; Si thinks more about how what they see makes them feel; they focus on the feelings things evoke; Si is judging how you fee from the picture, or how the picture makes them feel.


    So why does Se say you look fake when Se is about external statics like color texture etc? Because Se is also about perceiving how something shaped and is shaped or shaping their external appearance.

    Si- values the inside behavior, not the external appearance so no looking real or fake for Si type because what is valued is effort and sincerity and that can be seen.
    I sort of see what you are getting at but the example is not right at all. Si does care about how pleasant things are but it's also about naturalism, even more so than Se. "Authenticity" is really an Fe word because it's judging whether the external expression reflects the internal state. It almost seems like you're describing the Fe-Fi conflict actually.

    A real Se judgment and conflict with Si would have to do with whether someone is trying to cover up some kind of unpleasant, harsh truth. There is no way to get that based only on an image. They might also find blandness/normality unappealing (think Betas criticizing a "sheep" mentality or something like that) but the way you phrased it has nothing to do with that.

    "Si- values the inside behavior"

    Odd that you say this because your example is basically the exact opposite of this. It's actually Si that causes aversion to e.g. fakeness in the physical sense, because it's the opposite of naturalism.

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    This thread has come up in the wake of @Maritsa having @totalize describe her in the chatbox, based on her avatar photo, in order to type him.

    Iirc, she had already typed him SEI.

    As he was going to look at her avatar, she said something to the effect that if he had to go and look at it (because he couldn't remember it), that already was a strike against Se. Then she implied he wasn't going fast enough. She had cross-posted with total, who had rapidly listed a few concrete facts about her physical appearance and also said she looked "pleasant but not jolly." Maritsa zeroed in on the word "pleasant" and said he could not be an Se type.

    Typings for total apart from his initial LIE self-typing are all over the place. I don't know his type.

    I do think, though, that if someone is asked to assess another person's photo, they often will say the kinds of things that they're socially conditioned to say. To me calling someone "pleasant but not jolly" is a rather English-sounding thing to say. English will call someone "a pleasant fellow" and the like, and use the word "pleasant" often. In the United States, we don't use "pleasant" very often, and we don't say anything is jolly," apart from Christmas and Santa Claus.

    The way I interpret it, total is not even assessing how Maritsa is feeling inside, nor how she makes him feel. He seems to say she has assumed a "pleasant" smile, but not a "jolly" one, which is a way of describing the social smile versus the Duchenne smile, as people upthread have already discussed. At the least, the words are ambiguous. Please correct me if I'm wrong, @totalize.

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    going by my definition of Si @totalize writes What is comfort?
    Feeling nice. But I have to say this is more mental than physical. I can be physically uncomfortable for a long time and that's fine but awkward situations kind of annoy me and make me feel uncomfortable. Some social situations are more uncomfortable than being on a twelve hour plane flight with a broken seat and no entertainment, for instance. That I can pass by, I can will myself through. Uncomfortable situations mentally or socially are more difficult to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rougerogue View Post
    My question to @Chae was sarcastic.
    Pointing out that a smile is fake doesn't seem type related. It depends upon whether a person has the knowledge to tell whether a person is faking a smile and whether he/she cares.
    I'm interested in body language because I care about understanding other people and not allowing unchecked body language faux pas to hinder my communication. I don't think that is particularly Se related either.
    In our PMs, you made it sound like you were confirming my type but really it appears that you are just gathering more evidence to mistype me despite my effort to express how I actually think about my type.
    looking at body language is still external
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I once had an ISFp look at photos of two men, one of whom I was dating, one of whom was an outside "interest." She looked at one for a moment and said, more or less, "He's really cool, you can just tell he's a cool person, like that he would be fun to go do things with and would make you feel good about yourself." She looked at the other and made a face and said, "He's kind of like your ex, isn't he? He just gives me a bad feeling, like he'd be hard to deal with and kind of a wet blanket. He's square."

    This same woman is someone who actually can describe the outer qualities of things extremely well, like the texture and color of skin, basically all the aspects of various objects that appeal to her. But I do think it's true that she tends to slant all her descriptions toward how someone or something affects you -- your well-being or something.

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    it's ok, everything will be fine totalize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    This thread has come up in the wake of @Maritsa having @totalize describe her in the chatbox, based on her avatar photo, in order to type him.

    Iirc, she had already typed him SEI.

    As he was going to look at her avatar, she said something to the effect that if he had to go and look at it (because he couldn't remember it), that already was a strike against Se. Then she implied he wasn't going fast enough. She had cross-posted with total, who had rapidly listed a few concrete facts about her physical appearance and also said she looked "pleasant but not jolly." Maritsa zeroed in on the word "pleasant" and said he could not be an Se type.

    Typings for total apart from his initial LIE self-typing are all over the place. I don't know his type.

    I do think, though, that if someone is asked to assess another person's photo, they often will say the kinds of things that they're socially conditioned to say. To me calling someone "pleasant but not jolly" is a rather English-sounding thing to say. English will call someone "a pleasant fellow" and the like, and use the word "pleasant" often. In the United States, we don't use "pleasant" very often, and we don't say anything is jolly," apart from Christmas and Santa Claus.

    The way I interpret it, total is not even assessing how Maritsa is feeling inside, nor how she makes him feel. He seems to say she has assumed a "pleasant" smile, but not a "jolly" one, which is a way of describing the social smile versus the Duchenne smile, as people upthread have already discussed. At the least, the words are ambiguous. Please correct me if I'm wrong, @totalize.
    i thought it was unusual because 'pleasant' is a static quality, not a judgment on whether something is nice or fake. things are either pleasant or they're not -- they don't sort of change around whether or not i view them as pleasant. it's kind of why I don't understand the analogy at all because I said (and I did not say anything about the smile, either) she was pleasant looking because she fills all the requirements of a pleasant looking photo, i.e. smiling, not unattractive, etc. It's nothing about being fake or authentic O.o

    yes, what I said exactly was:
    dark hair dark eyes, thin mouth full nose, mildly slavic in appearance, pronounced shoulderbones -- stare focused on camera, pleasant but not jolly... usually appears suprirsed
    CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    i thought it was unusual because 'pleasant' is a static quality, not a judgment on whether something is nice or fake. things are either pleasant or they're not -- they don't sort of change around whether or not i view them as pleasant. it's kind of why I don't understand the analogy at all because I said (and I did not say anything about the smile, either) she was pleasant looking because she fills all the requirements of a pleasant looking photo, i.e. smiling, not unattractive, etc. It's nothing about being fake or authentic O.o

    yes, what I said exactly was:
    dark hair dark eyes, thin mouth full nose, mildly slavic in appearance, pronounced shoulderbones -- stare focused on camera, pleasant but not jolly... usually appears suprirsed
    I thought pleasant was the feeling that you get from something
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I somewhat associate attention and to use items and external stuff to control the attention of others and self to be somewhat Si, in this indirect way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I thought pleasant was the feeling that you get from something
    imo no. things are pleasant. a warm summer day is pleasant. the feeling you get from it is... well, whatever, warmth, relaxation, I guess. or things are not pleasant, i.e. sitting on concrete. the feeling you get is pain or soreness. do you see what i mean?
    CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM

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    Quote Originally Posted by totalize View Post
    imo no. things are pleasant. a warm summer day is pleasant. the feeling you get from it is... well, whatever, warmth, relaxation, I guess. or things are not pleasant, i.e. sitting on concrete. the feeling you get is pain or soreness. do you see what i mean?
    but that's objective and what is pleasant is only what strikes a liking on an individual level
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    it's ok, everything will be fine totalize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    but that's objective and what is pleasant is only what strikes a liking on an individual level
    no there's a separation between what something "is" and how a person "feels" about something. for example my jacket is red. it's warm. these are static qualities that will never change about it. it "looks good" is a subjective impression that other people might not agree with. I am describing your picture, not you; the picture is static and it's a pleasant picture regardless of what I happen to think about you at this time or at any time in the future. it matches enough of the standards for what makes something 'pleasant'.

    language is not all subjective, there are basic common objective standards in language so that we can all use it together. if you showed most people that picture they'd say it was pleasant because it has properties that constitute what our society views as pleasant. this is why it's possible to show a picture of a person smiling and a picture of a person not smiling to 1000 people and 99% will say the former looks more friendly than the latter. we have commonly-agreed static & objective meanings of words so that we can communicate (otherwise our language is pointless.)

    you might notice that I didn't actually put any subjective impressions into my description of you. I didn't say "reminds me of this" or "looks like she might be y" or "looks like a friendly and warm person" or something. what I said can be matched to a static standard.
    CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM

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