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Thread: Identifying DCNH Subtypes

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    I'm so glad you have absolute faith in Comrade Gulenko. That man is absolutely infallible. :rolls eyes:

    In fact, I think you should contact Comrade Gulenko in person so that he too can bask in the profundity of your sublime understanding of all things DCNH. :vomit:

    And you're not a harmonizing subtype... you're a creative subtype you fool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I think the only thing we all agree on is that you are clearly delusional.

    We're all tired of you... so why not join some rebel forces group in Zimbabwe and meet the fate of your equally deluded idol?
    Yeah, I actually thought of joining some rebel forces. But currently I'm busy with socionics .

    Why do you quote my whole writing if you don't say anything about it?

    You are certainly more delusional than I am. I will open a thread with a poll

    Please vote.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 07-15-2010 at 12:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Yeah, I actually thought of joining some rebel forces. But currently I'm busy with socionics .

    Why do you quote my whole writing if you don't say anything about it?

    You are certainly more delusional than I am. I will open a thread with a poll
    Looking forward to the results!

    But I'd better buy some popcorn first!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    I'm so glad you have absolute faith in Comrade Gulenko. That man is absolutely infallible.
    Are you talking to me?
    1.) I don't believe in his idea that only certain types can be successful in public life.
    2.) I don't believe in his idea that subtypes can change.
    3.) I don't believe that those functions in DCNH are really strengthened in pairs. It probably just looks like that. It doesn't make sense to assume that, for example, an INTj-INFp has stronger than an average INTj, even though an INTj-INFp clearly falls into the Harmonizing category due to his IP-subtemperament...

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    In fact, I think you should contact Comrade Gulenko in person so that he too can bask in the profundity of your sublime understanding of all things DCNH.
    Might be a good idea. Especially the correlation between DCNH subtype and face of shape might be very interesting to him. But those professional socionists probably already know about it I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    And you're not a harmonizing subtype... you're a creative subtype you fool.
    Laughable. I'm clearly a dreamer, that's what I'm doing most time of the day. Compared to other INTjs I know in person I am more introverted and more intuitive, that's for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    One of my best friends is an Ni-Harmonizing IEI. It manifests mostly in that he focuses a lot on pondering/worrying how future and long-term events will affect his friends' and loved ones' emotional harmony, as well as his own. His typical pose is spaced out and in his head. In the radically unlikely event that he were to become a killer or mass-murderer, it would be the quiet, subtle kind, not the brash political leader kind.
    This is a good description.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Are you talking to me?
    1.) I don't believe in his idea that only certain types can be successful in public life.
    2.) I don't believe in his idea that subtypes can change.
    3.) I don't believe that those functions in DCNH are really strengthened in pairs. It probably just looks like that. It doesn't make sense to assume that, for example, an INTj-INFp has stronger than an average INTj, even though an INTj-INFp clearly falls into the Harmonizing category due to his IP-subtemperament...
    1. Of course any type can be successful in public life. I do think though, that some types are more inclined to want to 'go public' than other types.

    2. I don't think they change either but I could be wrong on this.

    3. I think they are strengthened in pairs but one is strengthened to a greater degree than the other one. At least that's my experience. I'm an H-LII and I see signs of both strengthened and in myself. I'm more inclined though to see myself as an Ni-LII as opposed to an Si-LII but I could have this wrong and be an Si-LII for all I know. Compared to other LIIs, I seem to be more ILI like without actually being an ILI. I also seem to put more emphasis on comfort and health compared to other LIIs (strengthened ) although is still a weak function overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Might be a good idea. Especially the correlation between DCNH subtype and face of shape might be very interesting to him. But those professional socionists probably already know about it I guess...
    What would you say is the DCNH subtype of this individual? Her base type is LII.




    I know you like a challenge Mr. Smartypants. What's this DCNH subtype of the goofy character below? His base type is IEI.




    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Laughable. I'm clearly a dreamer, that's what I'm doing most time of the day. Compared to other INTjs I know in person I am more introverted and more intuitive, that's for sure.
    I think creative subtypes would also describe themselves as dreamers. The question to ask is are you more introverted and more intuitive compared to other LIIs?

    I don't know you that well but you don't give off the impression of harmonizing subtype. Of the four I'd say harmonizing is the least likely.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    What would you say is the DCNH subtype of this individual? Her base type is LII.
    Can't type her with that picture...

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    I know you like a challenge Mr. Smartypants. What's this DCNH subtype of the goofy character below? His base type is IEI.
    I don't know...

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    I think creative subtypes would also describe themselves as dreamers. The question to ask is are you more introverted and more intuitive compared to other LIIs?
    That's what I am. And being a dreamer is not really -related, especially not at all -like.

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    I don't know you that well but you don't give off the impression of harmonizing subtype. Of the four I'd say harmonizing is the least likely.
    I hope you don't say that because I don't seem to be "harmonizing" in the literal sense...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    The problem with your understanding of DCNH is that you believe subtype can be diagnosed independently from main type! That's exactly the same mistake tcaudillg makes with his dual-type theory!

    No, you can't type someone as Dominant or Harmonizing if you don't even know the main type. Using dual-type theory, you can't determine his so-called "energy type" before the "information type", either.

    That's one of the reasons why Rick DeLong doesn't support the idea of subtypes at all. People like tcaudillg or Krig tend to determine the subtype first and then they try to analyze the main type. That doesn't make sense, that's not how it works!
    Instead of assuming you know how I type people, why not ask me directly? It's important to have a clear understanding of your opponent's position before trying to disprove it.

    In this case, your assumptions bear only a passing resemblance to reality. It is sometimes possible to get an intuitive impression of a person's subtype before their main type is known, but I would never conclusively diagnose someone's subtype without first diagnosing their main type. My usual typing method is to look at the evidence, and see if any ideas intuitively spring to mind. Occasionally this will include subtype, but more often it's some element of the main type. Once I have an idea, I analyze the evidence logically to see if it is supportable. If it is, I mark it down and continue trying to piece together the rest of the person's type, frequently revisiting that conclusion to be sure it still makes sense in light of any new evidence. If it's not supportable, I discard the idea and start over, frequently revisiting the discarded idea to see if any new evidence has overturned my reasons for discarding it.

    The idea that I "tend to determine the subtype first and then they try to analyze the main type," is absurd. It's more common for me to be unable to determine a person's subtype, than the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I say he's most likely a Ni-ESTj. ESTjs are dominant by definition, no matter what subtype they are. Most Russian socionists type him as ISTj, well then, but Ni-ESTj makes more sense to me...
    H-ESTj's dominating tendencies are softened by the Harmonizing subtype. Yes, they're going to be pushier and more forthright than an H-IEI, but much less so than a D-LSE. I actually know an H-LSE, and he is more gregarious and friendly than pushy and domineering. His EJ temperament manifests not in telling others what to do, like a Dominant would, but in his strong personal drive and seeming inability to rest while there's work to be done.

    There are certain characteristics of subtypes which are common to all members of that subtype, regardless of their base type. If this were not so, then it would be impossible to write subtype descriptions. The common thread of the Harmonizing subtype is the desire to make life as comfortable and conflict-free as possible, whether physically (Si) or in a more abstract sense (Ni). This does not correlate in any way with Stalin's recorded behaviour, which was ruthless and domineering in both his personal and political life.

    (Also, for the record, I agree with the Russians that Stalin was LSI)

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Your friend's main type is INFp, yes? So how could he become like a Ni-ESTj or a Ni-ESTp or a Ni-ENFj?! That's obviously impossible. Don't overestimate the importance of subtypes....
    As I said above, there are certain characteristics which are present in all members of a subtype. If the trend is not apparent to you, it is likely because your typing is inconsistent, creating too much "noise" in your data for the trend to appear.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    I don't know about the type/subtype's listed but JD is right that the subtype (especially the name of it) has very little bearing on the behavior of the individual if compared to the Type. Harmonizing just means strengthened harmonic functions not fantastic harmonic functions. I just wished I had good examples of 2+ of the same type in comparison to each other. The subtypes are much easily picked out then.

    If we looked at types as a mathematical spectrum, much like smilingeyes behavior tracker thread (which works particularly well with a 2-subtype system), we could also come up with what reinen traits would be particularly acute in an individuals type/subtype combo.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    As I said above, there are certain characteristics which are present in all members of a subtype.
    This doesn't seem right as DCNH is just an emphasis on temperment.
    What traits are common with an H-SLE and an H-EII?
    The H-SLE becomes a bit more like an SLI and the EII becomes a bit more like an IEI. I can see that they are a bit closer to one another but I'm not sure this justifies having similiar characteristics due to subtype. One is an EP-IP hybrid and the other an IJ-IP hybrid.
    Last edited by Crispy; 07-15-2010 at 08:44 PM.
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    I was wondering how Se-ENFj would behave? and how would Ni-ESxp? Wouldn't they become similar in their behavior?
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    For Se-ENFj
    Roughly like this:
    (Valentine Meged & Anatoly Ovcharov) An original and creative person, they’re both extravagant and unpredictable. Very inquisitive and talkative; emotional enough to be impressionable. Internally intense/strained, frequently they doubt their decisions. Emotionally liberated and artistic, they easily express their feelings. Aware of the moods of others and are skilled in positively manipulating them. Speaks with feelings and enthusiasm, yet prone to irony and criticisms they sometimes project a venomous and haughty image. When in a good mood can command the center of attention within any company. Though able to fulfill practical obligations, often lack confidence in this regard. An active and social person, can switch between dressing unusually/extravagantly and simply/modestly. Movements are gusty and impulsive, lacking in restraint.

    Ni-ESxp would be a mixture between

    (Valentine Meged & Anatoly Ovcharov) The sensory subtype is witty and impulsive… while seemingly concealing within them latent threats they appear unappeasable. However, they are sharp, aggressive and persevering people. Notably resourceful, they are able to manifest vindictiveness in doses that make life for their ill-wishers simply intolerable. Their character appears full of contrasts and unpredictability. Towards those whom they love they are often tender, even sentimental. Their sense of humor easily incorporates sarcasm and caustic irony. Are talkative, charming, witty, critical and sharp, love epithets and slang expressions. Their movements are fast and gait centered, When walking their slightly bent knees provide them with an ingratiating feline resemblance. Appreciate life and tend to watch over their health, periodically exercising through sports/gymnastics. Dresses tastefully and expensively. Usually provide a bright impression of a self-assured and prospering person.

    and

    (Valentine Meged & Anatoly Ovcharov) The sensory subtype resembles an emotional, gusty and nervous person. Behind their anxiety and sincere discomfort the constant thirst for vigorous activity appears. Undertakes too much and thus wastes much energy in vain. Despite their efforts to be diplomatic, they often seem critical and categorical. Sometimes indignant but nonetheless does not forget to give compliments. While on one hand they are able to look down on the interlocutor and touch him/her with their prickly jokes; on the other hand can be very kind and willing to prove their kind nature if necessary. Possess good artistic abilities with which they amuse visitors. Usually thin and conscious of figure, periodically playing sports. Eyes are often small or deeply planted. Gestures display impatience and movements are nervous, gusty. Often change their pose; their gait appears weakened/shaky; speech tends to be either muffled or rapid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Instead of assuming you know how I type people, why not ask me directly? It's important to have a clear understanding of your opponent's position before trying to disprove it.

    The idea that I "tend to determine the subtype first and then they try to analyze the main type," is absurd. It's more common for me to be unable to determine a person's subtype, than the other way around.
    Okay, I just thought so because you recommend Borisova's article for typing which gives the impression that it is possible to diagnose the subtype before the base type. Tcaudillg even believes that "energy type" (which is his word for subtype) is more obvious than the "information type" (which is his word for base type)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    There are certain characteristics of subtypes which are common to all members of that subtype, regardless of their base type. If this were not so, then it would be impossible to write subtype descriptions.
    I don't think it makes much sense to work with 4 subtype descriptions. If we want to work with 64 types it would be much better to work with 64 descriptions, even if the provisional ones are not in every case a good approximation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    As I said above, there are certain characteristics which are present in all members of a subtype. If the trend is not apparent to you, it is likely because your typing is inconsistent, creating too much "noise" in your data for the trend to appear.
    Of course this trend is apparent to me: All 16 Harmonizing subtypes are more introverted and more perceiving than an average representative of its base type...

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    Default DCNH --- How to determine the subtypes

    There are serveral methods to determine DCNH subtypes:

    1.) Adjectives (reliability: lowest)
    - Just read 4 words and you can type everyone
    Problems:
    - Being creative does not necessarily mean that you are the creative subtype, being dominant does not imply dominant subtype. Keep in mind that, for example, ENTps are creative and ESTjs dominant by definition, no matter what subtype they are.
    - Some forum members believe that people like ****** or Stalin can't be the harmonizing subtype because they were monsters. But harmonizing subtype does not mean that someone must be harmonizing in real life. I explained it here

    2.) Information elements (reliability: very low)
    - Just decide which elements you use more often or like better than you identicals.
    Problems:
    - Many people can't even decide on their base function when they try to determine their base type.
    - You have to know a lot of identicals to draw comparisons.
    - I do not believe that those elements are really strengthened "in pairs". I explained it here

    3.) Dichotomies (reliability: low)
    - Decide if you are more introverted or more extraverted, more judging or more perceiving than your identicals. Static/dynamic can be used for verification.
    Problems:
    - Many people can't even decide if they are introverted or extraverted, judging or perceiving when they try to determine their base type.
    - You have to know a lot of identicals to draw comparisons.

    4.) Descriptions of D,C,N and H (reliability: low)
    - Read this or that or even that.
    Problems:
    - I don't think that it makes much sense for typing to describe, for example, a D-ESTj the same way as a D-ISFp. Of course, everyone should read those descriptions to get an impression what "dominant", "creative" etc is supposed to mean. But I definitely wouldn't recommend this approach for typing.
    - Borisova doesn not describe the same functional model as Gulenko. Only the adjectives are identical.
    - Gulenko's subtypes do not exist in reality in this form: "In reality the person who carries out the role of the normalizing participant in a group, of course, merely approaches this formula."
    - Those descriptions might encourage people to determine the subtype of a person when they are not even sure of the base type.

    5.) 64 Provisional descriptions (reliability: moderate)
    - This rearrangement of the ordinary subtype descriptions was an idea of KrigTheViking who, unfortunately, doesn't seem to support it anymore. In my opinion it works pretty well in most cases. Better than nothing at least.
    Problems:
    - Those descriptions can only be an approximation because they were not meant to be DCNH descriptions when their authors wrote them.

    6.) Visual identification (reliability: high)
    - Description here.
    Problems:
    - Some experience is required to decide if a face rather looks like a circle or a square, a rectangle or an oval.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 08-30-2010 at 05:17 PM.

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    I'd like to get Iceman on here to review your "theory".

    In fact, JohnDo, why not explain all your wondrous wisdom to Gulenko in person? You know he has a forum, right? Even a blog!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I'd like to get Iceman on here to review your "theory".
    Who is Iceman?
    A forum member? A fictional friend of Spider-Man like Fire-Star? The former Formula One driver Kimi Räikkönen? Somebody else?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    In fact, JohnDo, why not explain all your wondrous wisdom to Gulenko in person? You know he has a forum, right? Even a blog!
    Do you have a link, please? But I don't speak Russian.
    Last edited by JohnDo; 08-31-2010 at 06:14 PM.

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    You don't have to. Google Translate will do it for you.

    "Gulenko blog" in that little box in your browser.

    As for Iceman, keep spouting Gulenko's "propositions for discussion" as fact, and you'll find out who he is.

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    I think both of you are far too quick to pronounce hypotheses and theories to be demonstrable facts.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Default Functional strengthening and DCNH subtypes

    OK, I remember bits of information related to the DCNH model. I'll state a vague idea I have. Correct me if I am wrong

    Dominant subtype: The base function is strengthened
    Creative subtype: The creative function is strengthened
    Normalizing subtype: The role function is strengthened
    Harmonizing subtype: The polr is strengthened.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    I think all this stuff about functions being strengthened in DCNH is precisly the root of the confusion. Its better to just focus on introverted and extroverted behaviors, rational and irrational behaviors, then functions. Lets make this simple people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    OK, I remember bits of information related to the DCNH model. I'll state a vague idea I have. Correct me if I am wrong

    Dominant subtype: The base function is strengthened
    Creative subtype: The creative function is strengthened
    Normalizing subtype: The role function is strengthened
    Harmonizing subtype: The polr is strengthened.
    The idea that DCNH subtypes strengthen functions instead of IEs is from an article by Vera Borisova, and is not part of the standard DCNH theory. DCNH is actually focused on the Information Elements:

    Dominant subtype: Fe and Te are emphasized in behaviour.
    Creative subtype: Se and Ne are emphasized in behaviour.
    Normalizing subtype: Fi and Ti are emphasized in behaviour.
    Harmonizing subtype: Si and Ni are emphasized in behaviour.

    It's basically a sub-temperament system. You could describe it as:

    Dominant subtype: more EJ behaviour.
    Creative subtype: more EP behaviour.
    Normalizing subtype: more IJ behaviour.
    Harmonizing subtype: more IP behaviour.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Default A DCNH question: How can you tell between EJs and D, EPs and C, IJs and N, IPs and H ?

    Hi everyone,

    I've been in lurk mode for a while and I have gotten quite confused about a certain aspect of the DCNH subtyping setup:

    How can you tell the difference between an EJ temperament (Sociotype-wise) and a D/Dominant subtype? (Likewise, differences between EP and C/Creative, IJ and N/Normalizing, and IP and H/Harmonizing are part of this question too).

    In my case, I tend to think that I am an EJ type (as either an EIE or an ESE) but as an H subtype.

    How might this combination work? On one hand, as an EJ, I am trying (at least internally) to make my life as stable and as 'moving forward' as possible. While it may take hard work and effort to do that, I am willing to do that because I cannot stand my life either at a standstill or falling apart. So effort, hard work, and diligence (in a very linear/direct EJ-ish style) is the path by which I am trying to keep things stable and progressing.

    However, at the same time, I am an H subtype. I tend to be lacking in assertiveness, somewhat shy, also wanting to be generally liked and accepted by others (by people-pleasing and being a 'nice guy'). I am also somewhat tentative and indecisive about things that I am not certain about (and that may sabotage my ability to be liked/accepted/approved of). By the way, on the Enneagram, I am a 6, and my tritype is either a 6/9/3 or a 6/9/2 (for those who know/use the Enneagram and may correlate it with DCNH).
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So what I am thinking is that temperament (related to Sociotype) is more of a cognitive thing about how one generally functions around order, chaos, etc. (as a direct function of which IM elements are in the driver's seat), while DCNH is a behavioral adaptation that brings certain traits to the forefront (that may either support or run tangentially to those IM Elements that define one's Sociotype).

    Am I getting this differentiation right, or am I off base thus far?

    Like, an EIE-D (or ESE-D), I would expect to be an active planner and direct communicator who would not at all exhibit the type of shyness and tentativeness that I (as an EIE-H) might show. All emotions would be on the table in a highly assertive and no-holds-barred manner. In contrast, I would certainly wear my emotions on my sleeve, but I might not be as front and center in expressing them, in fear that I am sabotaging myself. Yet, as a Socionic extravert (albeit a social introvert), I am slightly more associated on the direct emotional ambience that is in front of me, rather than dwelling more expansively on my inner world/thoughts. I consider myself more of a 'moderate energy EIE' rather than a purely high energy or low energy person. (BTW, once in a while, I would more freely become highly expressive like an EIE-D or EIE-C and express myself passionately and openly....A Karaoke night does wonders for me this way!)

    Or perhaps an IEI-D would be the type of poetic soul that had the potential to lead nations and who would not hold anything back in bringing a romanticism that had nothing to hold back. Comparing this to a more reclusive IEI-H who would be happy sifting through feelings in a very private, withdrawn location.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These are my guesses, and I would like to see if my thinking is on track about this (based on the definitions of temperaments and DCNH).

    How might you distinguish between each of the four temperaments (as they reflect the dominant IM Element within a given type) and the more behavioral/trait-based DCNH subtypes?
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    Just don't think about DCNH as a starting point. It's not that relevant. The temperaments are clear regardless.
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    I get what you are saying in terms of starting off with the temperaments first. If I could simply see the congruence between IM elements and one's behavior, I could visualize it better.

    However, in my case, I see myself as an EIE that serves as a Socionic extravert (by definition) but also as a social introvert. In fact, I thought for the longest time that I was an introvert (with EII, SEI, and IEI leading my top guesses). However, people have told me that my enthusiasm and emotional expression is very apparent (and so while I might seem quasi-introverted, when you consider Socionics and IM elements, I am using first).

    So I am very interested in the contrast between the IM elements (which guide temperament) and the behavioral modifications that may shape a certain type (where DCNH appears to be a useful model). I feel like an out of the ordinary EIE (having the expressiveness but sometimes keeping it under wraps) and so I am very interested in the distinctions here.

    This is why I want to see how (for example) an EIE-D looks different than EIE-N, etc. in a way that goes beyond one single temperament or type.
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    As far as I remember, no socionics description defines EIE as stark extraverts. They are typically seen as very controlled in their emotionality, purposeful. They're negativistic-aristocrats, after all.
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    That totally makes sense (especially when you even consider that Hamlet was the character chosen to embody the EIE, and the 'To be or not to be" soliloquy certainly fits that negativism that you are talking about), but would all EIEs be Hamlet-like? Couldn't you have a more loud, boisterous EIE existing, and at the same time, couldn't you have a quieter, yet just as emotionally aware, -driven EIE as well?

    This is where the descriptions sometimes break down, and then we have to read between the lines to determine how each individual fits within the system. This is why I have additionally gravitated to DCNH (in a way that augments everything we know about how IM Elements dictate Socionics types).
    Mike
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    I have another way to phrase my initial question:

    When you attempt to type another person (and hence determine which IM elements are in the correct positions using Model A), how do you separate out behavioral, MBTI-like trait oriented stuff, from the other material that is more indicative of the Socionics type and temperament?

    It is easy for me to see the behavioral stuff (since it is based on concrete traits) but since the language of Socionics types goes beyond behavioral traits, it is harder to weed out the behavioral from the cognitive (information metabolism). Does anyone have any suggestions about how to make those separations between behavioral and cognitive, in order to accurately hone in on temperament and Sociotype?
    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesilb View Post
    A DCNH question: How can you tell between EJs and D, EPs and C, IJs and N, IPs and H ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesilb View Post
    How can you tell the difference between an EJ temperament (Sociotype-wise) and a D/Dominant subtype? (Likewise, differences between EP and C/Creative, IJ and N/Normalizing, and IP and H/Harmonizing are part of this question too).
    I think this is a very valid question...and without even bringing MBTI into it. The standard answer of course is exactly the first response in the thread: You're not *supposed* to assess subtypes until you've first determined the type. It's a very logical and comfortable answer. But the problem is of course that stuff written about DCNH sounds like stuff written about different temperaments, or about functions beyond the main ones that would be associated with the type.

    So it seems likely that if DCNH is valid at all, then some aspects of it could give out "false signals" that might confuse someone about a given person's type. After all, people aren't like a simple computer program; they might spit out any behavior at any time, and you can't say "wait, I haven't typed you yet; you're not allowed to display DCNH behaviors at this stage of the game."

    That may not be a problem most of the time, for someone with a clear sense of types typing someone who's easy to type. But I think that for anyone who believes in and uses the DCNH theory, it's a valid question to ask how one teases one thing out from the other....For example, suppose one has a "D-ILE." Well this means that the person's main IM elements are Ne and Ti, but the person is in some way emphasizing a Je something...either Te or Fe. Surely that could get confusing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    That may not be a problem most of the time, for someone with a clear sense of types typing someone who's easy to type. But I think that for anyone who believes in and uses the DCNH theory, it's a valid question to ask how one teases one thing out from the other....For example, suppose one has a "D-ILE." Well this means that the person's main IM elements are Ne and Ti, but the person is in some way emphasizing a Je something...either Te or Fe. Surely that could get confusing...
    I'm not a fan of this interpretation of DCNH - I think it should be more "behavioral" and connected to the inert-contact and initiating-finishing dichotomy, rather than a superimposed "layer" of function which only creates confusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesilb View Post

    How can you tell the difference between an EJ temperament (Sociotype-wise) and a D/Dominant subtype? (Likewise, differences between EP and C/Creative, IJ and N/Normalizing, and IP and H/Harmonizing are part of this question too).
    This is something that comes with experience. You don't really need a method for that. DCNH types is something different than sociotype. They can be confused if you have very little information about a person, for example an H can be confused for an IP sociotype, but my experience is that the sociotype is something very clear and that the DCNH type just masks the sociotype initially.

    For example, my mom is a D-ESI, and when I was new to MBTI and new nothing about socionics I first typed her ESFJ, because she expresses lots of outgoing, directed energy. However, she is an absolutely clear ESI, she has base Fi and creative Se, and Ne polr etc, and my relationships with her fits quasi-identity. I got it right once I had typed more ESIs and ESEs.

    But if you want a method the thing to do is to compare a lot of people of the same type, that way the D, C, N and H subtypes of that sociotype emerge. How do you then know what people to compare? well that comes with experience. Another thing that can help you learn to see the subtypes is that people tend to marry their subtype dual, so D goes with N and C goes with H (not always, but very often).

    But you need to type a lot of people until this becomes clear, and you will make mistakes on the way. If you aren't even really certain of you own type then it's maybe better to wait and see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I think this is a very valid question...and without even bringing MBTI into it. The standard answer of course is exactly the first response in the thread: You're not *supposed* to assess subtypes until you've first determined the type. It's a very logical and comfortable answer. But the problem is of course that stuff written about DCNH sounds like stuff written about different temperaments, or about functions beyond the main ones that would be associated with the type.
    Exactly! It (meaning DCNH) adds a very practical layer to the Sociotype by adding behavioral differentiators to the mix in order to create subdivisions within a given type. However, it takes a certain level of care (when typing someone) to determine what aspects of the person would be purely cognitive and what parts are more behavioral. A pure differentiation between the two has a lot to do with the question that I am asking. Undeniably, they are intertwined to a certain degree, but it takes a certain level of discrimination to separate these two elements when typing anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    So it seems likely that if DCNH is valid at all, then some aspects of it could give out "false signals" that might confuse someone about a given person's type. After all, people aren't like a simple computer program; they might spit out any behavior at any time, and you can't say "wait, I haven't typed you yet; you're not allowed to display DCNH behaviors at this stage of the game."
    Yes...This is where is kinda gets confusing in terms of applying DCNH here. However, I really think that DCNH matters here because you could totally have a certain temperament (based on IM Elements/Model A) but then find yourself with a behavioral component that may run counter to the type that you just designated. I really believe that as an EIE-H (who considered myself as an MBTI-based INFP), solidifying my Socionics type was a really tough to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    That may not be a problem most of the time, for someone with a clear sense of types typing someone who's easy to type. But I think that for anyone who believes in and uses the DCNH theory, it's a valid question to ask how one teases one thing out from the other....For example, suppose one has a "D-ILE." Well this means that the person's main IM elements are Ne and Ti, but the person is in some way emphasizing a Je something...either Te or Fe. Surely that could get confusing...
    I completely agree with FDG that the DCNH subtype uses parameters that are somewhat shifted from the actual IM elements, and reflect more behavioral parameters (rather than the IM elements themselves). A D-ILE would be using a 'pseudo Je' component (since it is behavioral/trait based) rather than by simply adding on more Je to the typical Model A(/B) arrangement for the ILE.

    In other words, I kinda see a D-ILE as an idea generator who holds back nothing towards making others very much aware of the novel ideas that are being thought of. I'm not sure if Thomas Edison was the type of guy who represented a D-ILE (since I am not sure of whether he was the type of person who assertively promoted or defended his novel inventions and ideas...My gut feeling is that he was, but I am not 100% sure), but he is sort of the archetypal prolific and outspoken inventor who I could picture as being a D-ILE.

    Thanks again for seeing the value of my initial question!
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I'm not a fan of this interpretation of DCNH - I think it should be more "behavioral" and connected to the inert-contact and initiating-finishing dichotomy, rather than a superimposed "layer" of function which only creates confusion.
    I completely agree with what you are saying here. DCNH is all about adding real-world, behavioral components as a means to subdivide the 16 Socionics types. They are not meant to distort the dominance of any given IM Element for any type. The behavioral/DCNH stuff runs tangential to the type itself rather than augmenting or diminishing any IM Element within Model A (or B) for any type.
    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime
    This is something that comes with experience. You don't really need a method for that. DCNH types is something different than sociotype. They can be confused if you have very little information about a person, for example an H can be confused for an IP sociotype, but my experience is that the sociotype is something very clear and that the DCNH type just masks the sociotype initially.
    So here is what I am thinking about this (just to follow your example). I want to take a stab at this differentiation:

    I see an IP temperament as representing a person who typically shows a low energy level, who is really all about going with the flow of life without trying to disturb it, perturb it, etc. The person can look at life with a certain level of acceptance that an artist might have with his/her surroundings. The person is aiming for a certain level of OK-ness with the world around him/her (using either or as the dominant IM element), and does not want life to be messed with or perfected too much, to such an extent where that pristine-ness is being compromised in any way.

    In contrast, I see the Harmonizing subtype as a more un-assertive, shy, somewhat indecisive, socially introverted/withdrawn type of person. I could see this person not doing a really good job speaking up for him/herself and for not wanting to create waves. Enneagram-wise, this person could be a 9 or a phobic-6 (as two examples). This person could be any Sociotype and may like to remain at a very different energy level (temperament-wise), but for whatever reason, may lack the type of assertive qualities and may potentially hold him/herself back in terms of self-promotion or self-assertion.

    (Am I on the right track here?)

    As I wrote this, I tried to make the IP description more about a general energy level while making the Harmonizing subtype description more about the behavioral qualities of being soft spoken, unassertive, etc. Perhaps this shows how important of a role the dominant IM Element dictates the type of energy level that the person inherently aims for (in a manner that transcends the behavioral style in which DCNH might modify/toggle with that preferred energy level).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime
    For example, my mom is a D-ESI, and when I was new to MBTI and new nothing about socionics I first typed her ESFJ, because she expresses lots of outgoing, directed energy. However, she is an absolutely clear ESI, she has base Fi and creative Se, and Ne polr etc, and my relationships with her fits quasi-identity. I got it right once I had typed more ESIs and ESEs.
    Would you say that she has more of a calm, composed, and structured IJ-ish energy level in general? Or is the energy more dynamic, outward and somewhat lacking in that sense of general calmness and composure (in more of an EJ-ish dynamic)? By asking this question, I am trying to differentiate between a D-IJ (like a D-ESI) type and an N-EJ (like an N-ESE) type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime
    But you need to type a lot of people until this becomes clear, and you will make mistakes on the way. If you aren't even really certain of you own type then it's maybe better to wait and see.
    I fully agree with you! This aspect of typing certainly has all sorts of challenges. But I find myself really curious about this, given that (as stated in a different post), as an H-EIE, there is such a difference between my Sociotype and my DCNH behavioral component, that I am fascinated as to how one can differentiate between the two. Also, while I am a enthusiastic, emotional, and passionate EIE (by definition), I am not as emotionally-in-your-face (and hard charging) as some other EIEs (especially the D-EIEs). So this has made me more curious about how people could sense that I am an EIE while at the same time noticing that I am behaviorally quite different than many EIEs as well.

    All these reasons make me want to confront any challenges/mistakes that may take place as I am typing others. Anyway, I love the intricacies of the model and want to see how well it matches (or doesn't match) real people. That makes it all fascinating in the end!
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    I like to think that the DCHN subtyping system alters the preferred social role of the person, but does not strongly alter their thinking style. For example, I have concluded that I am a LII-D. This forces me into social roles occupied by E-js. Since I am an intuitive-logical type, I tend to seek out the social role of the LIE. In fact, nearly all Socionic tests will place me as an LIE. (That is, as long as the Socionic test does not use Renin traits.)

    I clearly am not an LIE. Even when I was new to Socionics, I would read the description of the LIE and say, nope - not me. What happens is that I approach the social role of the LIE in a distinctly LII way.

    A LIE is an "enterpriser" and so am I - however I enterprise from a standpoint of examining the enterprise as a logical system that needs de-bugging and or troubleshooting. I might have to take something, and re-build it from new tenets from the ground up. For example, I spend a lot of time designing human resource policy - as a system. But what kind of system is it? I look to rebuild its foundations and establish that any given company should be a "system of learning." I consider human resources in a strategic context, as a tool for leadership development, but also as the primary means to access new potentials in technology. People come first, then ideas follow from that, then we get the technology which reflects our knowledge that originally came from people.

    Building things from fundamental tenets is Ti. Thus, I approach an executive job from a distinctly LII point of view.

    However, people would mistake me (in real life) as some kind of beta NF – basically a IEI. This is because the D subtype has “strengthened” Fe and Te. Because I really am an intuitive introvert, they perceive an intuitive introvert who spews forth a relatively large amount of Fe. But I am an LII… because I metabolize information like an LII does.

    So being the D subtype was not enough to make me seem extroverted, but instead I am a strangely sparkling LII.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm
    I like to think that the DCHN subtyping system alters the preferred social role of the person, but does not strongly alter their thinking style. For example, I have concluded that I am a LII-D. This forces me into social roles occupied by E-js. Since I am an intuitive-logical type, I tend to seek out the social role of the LIE. In fact, nearly all Socionic tests will place me as an LIE. (That is, as long as the Socionic test does not use Renin traits.)
    That is actually a really interesting perspective, and I can see how the social role that you are describing kinda reflects a hybrid of the Sociotype + DCNH combo. In this sense, I could see how the combination of LII with a pseudo-EJish feel could bring a pseudo LIE'ish style. I also find it interesting (after reading your prior posts) that you considered yourself an EIE and wanted to inquire about the DCNH subtypes for EIE). I'm really curious regarding your process in determining that EIE was not accurate and that D-LII made more sense. What made you switch so dramatically from one to the other? (BTW, if I was to switch out of EIE myself, I could see LII or ILE as definite possibilities. Especially when I am scientifically inclined and have a scientific background. So this is an ongoing debate even from my vantage point).

    Back to what you were saying about the LII-D/LIE social role relationship: Using the MBTI, I thought that I was an xNFP (in which most likely, INFP descriptions fit me better than ENFP descriptions). I also for a long time thought that I was either an EII, SEI, or IEI. In many ways, I can see myself as a hybrid of the social roles of the SEI and IEI (especially when I am being more laid back...which is related to my Harmonizing subtype). Likewise, I can also see an EII'ish role as well (especially when my inner perfectionism comes into play...and this might be seen as the combination of bring Rational and having a Harmonizing [and thus, more introverted] subtype). So I can see how social roles of somewhat adjacent types can fit when the 'gestalt' of EIE + Harmonizing merge together. I never thought about it until now, but find it really interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm
    I clearly am not an LIE. Even when I was new to Socionics, I would read the description of the LIE and say, nope - not me. What happens is that I approach the social role of the LIE in a distinctly LII way.

    A LIE is an "enterpriser" and so am I - however I enterprise from a standpoint of examining the enterprise as a logical system that needs de-bugging and or troubleshooting. I might have to take something, and re-build it from new tenets from the ground up. For example, I spend a lot of time designing human resource policy - as a system. But what kind of system is it? I look to rebuild its foundations and establish that any given company should be a "system of learning." I consider human resources in a strategic context, as a tool for leadership development, but also as the primary means to access new potentials in technology. People come first, then ideas follow from that, then we get the technology which reflects our knowledge that originally came from people.

    Building things from fundamental tenets is Ti. Thus, I approach an executive job from a distinctly LII point of view.
    I get it and I find that really interesting! In my case, people have said that I sort of run on a feeling-oriented tone (not as much in an way as much as the more explicit emotion-based comes out). My emotions can be one of the first things that can be read from my face (since they are quite apparent), and I am very sensitive to the explicit emotional states of others. In fact, when people hide their feelings, I can get suspicious (and be concerned that something is off or that I did something wrong). Thus, I like it when people are open with their expressions and do not like it when that is hidden. So in a nutshell, even though I may not be as assertive or proactive as EIE-Ds, as an EIE-H, I still deeply relate to and am affected by the emotional states of others. is a large roleplayer here.

    I have a question for you: As an LII-D that would imply that you are heavy on the Rational side of things (since you would have an IJ temperament with a proactive, in charge 'pseudo-EJ-ish' sub-temperament). Does this apply to you at all (that you would be much higher on the Rational side than the Irrational side)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm
    However, people would mistake me (in real life) as some kind of beta NF – basically a IEI. This is because the D subtype has “strengthened” Fe and Te. Because I really am an intuitive introvert, they perceive an intuitive introvert who spews forth a relatively large amount of Fe. But I am an LII… because I metabolize information like an LII does.

    So being the D subtype was not enough to make me seem extroverted, but instead I am a strangely sparkling LII.
    That makes a lot of sense. Assuming that EIE-H is correct, that would make me an extravert (in terms of basal energy level and also how reliant I am on the outside world of people, places, and things while needing to seek a bit deeper to find an inner voice and an inner space [although my can certainly bring me there when I directly access it...when I am more deeply into conceptual ruminations, etc.]) At the same time, I am a more tentative, more yielding, less assertive version of an -dominant type. Thus, while I certainly feel socially introverted (and it definitely comes out at large parties, networking scenarios, etc.), the truth of the matter is that I am still directed by all sorts of feeling tones that are emitted by others and that I can easily detect (and either yield to or deflect accordingly). So being a more tentative, more yielding, and less assertive EIE is seemingly where I stand. (However, I will investigate this further here to determine if I am correct or off in this assessment).


    Thanks for your insightful feedback here!
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    As to thinking I was an EIE, I seemed like an EIE only if I imagined myself as one in front of the mirror! I have Fi role, Fe suggestive which means I use feelings, and as the D subtype, I feel less socially alienated than many LIIs seem to be. My mom was an art teacher, and my dad was a TV anchorman, so they always focused on developing my self-expression. Thus, I could conceivably kid myself into believing that I was a Fe dominate type, but in real life (outside of the encouraging suggestions of my family) I was obviously not an F. My mom and dad kept nudging me to be an F, (they do not study personality theory of course) and after hearing them talk about how expressive and sensitive I am I could project that onto my reading of the type descriptions. Then I encounter the real world again and I just don't seem to be a feeler!

    It took a while to separate "mom says I am so sensitive" from the reality that I am very rational and even slightly dead pan user of an Fi role function (I am unfailingly polite) and a Fe suggestive (I have a quirky beam of Fe that I can use for brief periods of time.)

    So I saw myself as an EIE, while doubting it extensively. At that same time everybody else was calling me an LII here on the forum.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    As to thinking I was an EIE, I seemed like an EIE only if I imagined myself as one in front of the mirror! I have Fi role, Fe suggestive which means I use feelings, and as the D subtype, I feel less socially alienated than many LIIs seem to be. My mom was an art teacher, and my dad was a TV anchorman, so they always focused on developing my self-expression. Thus, I could conceivably kid myself into believing that I was a Fe dominate type, but in real life (outside of the encouraging suggestions of my family) I was obviously not an F. My mom and dad kept nudging me to be an F, (they do not study personality theory of course) and after hearing them talk about how expressive and sensitive I am I could project that onto my reading of the type descriptions. Then I encounter the real world again and I just don't seem to be a feeler!

    It took a while to separate "mom says I am so sensitive" from the reality that I am very rational and even slightly dead pan user of an Fi role function (I am unfailingly polite) and a Fe suggestive (I have a quirky beam of Fe that I can use for brief periods of time.)

    So I saw myself as an EIE, while doubting it extensively. At that same time everybody else was calling me an LII here on the forum.
    I can totally see how you could have been confused about being an EIE (or even an LIE, especially with the social role being mimicked by you being an D-LII). By being a Dominant subtype while showing enough (as a static rational type) and (based on the suggestive function's needs), I can see how it can look as if your self-expression could be maximized in order to mimic an EIE style. This makes a lot of sense to me.

    I think that it is good that you viewed the way that you analyze different situations as being "from the ground up." To me, this is classic LII, since you are using logical principles (, not ) to build a system of understanding from first principles. This has LII written all over it. I can also see that while you are LII, you have this more expressive style that brings your LII-ness to the forefront (in the manner that a Dominant subtype would). This all fits quite nicely after hearing your explanation.

    In my case, I sometimes debate as to whether I am either an EIE (or ESE for that matter) or rather I am an LII or ILE. My background as a scientist, plus my analysis-paralysis (6-ish) modality tempts me in thinking that I am using quite a bit. On the flip side, I am more insecure about the extent of my knowledge or understanding and thus, I am not able to remain purely objective in a detached manner in the manner that I might expect types to perform. (In other words, I use my -suggestive function to obtain greater clarity about the areas that I waver, hesitate, or am indecisive about).There is also a more emotional side to me that expresses them (i.e., emotions) or assesses different things based on others' social cues. I don't have the level of pure detachment that I would likely have if I was an LII or ILE. There is a part of my understanding that brings in more of metaphysical and reflective () angle to my learning, rather than a purely objective and detached viewpoint (). One thing that may help me in this process is listen to audiobooks of Richard Feynman and to determine how he comes out as an EIE, rather than LII or ILE. I think that this might help me differentiate between a science-based EIE vs. an expressive nature that still fits the LII style. Hopefully, this will help me in my own personal insights.

    Thanks so much again Saberstorm. Really insightful post!
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
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    Saberstorm is such a pronouncedly sparkly D-LII that he's actually a C-ILE but it'll be another year or two before he figures that out.

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    Oui!
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


    Socionics -
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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rpsy View Post
    Saberstorm is such a pronouncedly sparkly D-LII that he's actually a C-ILE but it'll be another year or two before he figures that out.
    I would think that a D-LII would be have a moderate energy level due to the mix between the even-keeled IJ Temperament and the D (pseudo-EJ temperament). This would imply (using some trait-based MBTI-like assessment) a moderate I/E and a clear-cut rational type.

    Contrastingly, I would expect a C-ILE to have a considerably higher energy level since in this case we are talking about the EP temperament and the C (pseudo EP temperament). Thus, I/E would be heavily on the E side, while J/P would show a high irrational flavor.

    Obviously, Socionics does not aim to be trait based in general, so these comparisons only go so far, but at least to my understanding there is a large energy difference between D-LII and C-ILE.
    Mike
    Enneagram: 6w7 so/sx (Tritype: 6w7/9w1/2w3 or 6w7/9w1/3w2)

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    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesilb View Post
    So here is what I am thinking about this (just to follow your example). I want to take a stab at this differentiation:
    You had many questions, I cannot answer them all, or I don't have an answer. I'm not very good at describing these things in a coherent way but here are some thoughts:

    ***

    About the subtype discriptions: I think DCNH is a real phonomenon so I just see the descriptions of the subtypes as pointers that help me or teach me to identify them in real life. They don't have to be 100% true; as I learn to relate to the different subtypes I can identify them myself, I don't have to stand there with the descriptions in my hand when I meet people, it's an organic thing, DCNH is real and my mind and body or whatever learns how to identify the subtypes in interaction. A mistake that people sometimes make is that they get obsessed by the exact definitions of subtypes and then they have to get it exactly right. I think it's better to have a lose definition in mind and let reality show the way. But that doesn't mean that it's just subjective either.

    Dominant for example is not necessarily a "dominant person". Often someone who is very aware, involved in the environment and people around them.

    You are talking about IP sociotype as having low energy levels. But I know many SEIs who are energetic and are very involved in their environment. Particularly C- and D-types. (the C has very scattered energy, going in many directions). On the other hand an H-LSE gives out very little energy, seems reserved and sensitive, but she can still easily use Te to "get things done", but it's done in a unassuming way, she doesn't waste any energy, doesn't energize other people.

    I've understood that it's like this:

    DCNH is about energy
    Sociotype is about information

    I think what is meant by energy becomes clearer when one looks at the subtype dichotomies: connecting/ignoring and contact/distant. They can be ridiculously clear in people sometimes.

    Or DCNH is about awareness/type of concentration and Sociotype is about conciousness.

    I'm not saying that this is exactly correct, but this way of thinking of it helps me identify the phenomenon I see around me.

    As an N-SEI (I am probably normalizing, or my subtype is unclear), I don't have 100% awareness of all the time, but it's definitely a strong conscious process in me. This has changed over the years, I'm becoming more and more aware of all the time, but this can also change from time to time depending on what my interests are. But DCNH is not crucial for my self-typing. There are so many other things that shows the type.

    Sometimes DCNH is thought of as functional strength in model A, regardless of what type you happen to be. But sometimes it's thought of as a completely separate phenomenon, although somehow related. It's like you can have -information (model A) and -energy (DCNH). I don't really know how to think of it, but I don't think that much.

    So this has made me more curious about how people could sense that I am an EIE while at the same time noticing that I am behaviorally quite different than many EIEs as well.
    For me at least it has to do with the chemistry that happens between us. I mean chemistry in the broader sense of the word, "how it feels, my automatic reactions". Comfortable Sociotype combination will bring good communication/understanding, and comfortable DCNH combination will establish contact and keep it in a natural way. Or something like that.

    I've many times been in frustrating situations when the sociotype compatibility and DCNH compatibility don't match together, or only one of them are a good match. It's percieved as confusing. "Something is right, but still not quite right." I was dating an D-EII some year ago, that's compatible energy with me (I'm probably normalizing), but sociotype was not so good. On the other hand I've dated an H-ILE, which is duality, so it was great, but there was a very clear lack of the contact dichotomy in energy. The best relationships I've had in terms of comfort was with a D-IEE and a D-ESE. (that was a long time ago, but still)

    There are pitfalls on the way. Harmonizing women are often attractive. So one can easily get attracted to them. But that's more like aesthetical attraction, and they are pleasant, but that's not compatibility. Unless you happen to be a C of course.

    One more thing. Have you read this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gulenko
    dual subtypes offer physical compatibility (lifestyle, intimate relations)
    Pretty interesting. Physical compatibility. If that's a correct translation I don't know, but if it is, I would agree.

    Since you're EIE. I was thinking of taking a risk and throw in some famous EIE people for DCNH comparisons. Some people will of course disagree, but I hope that we don't need to start another type war here. If someone disagrees, just look at it as my own impression of something. But my typings are correct I promise.

    D-EIE Tony Robbins
    C-EIE Charles Manson
    N-EIE I don't have any examples
    H-EIE Michael Jackson (pretty nice interview)

    EDIT: Oh, one more thing. Some people claim that you have to be sure of the sociotype before you can tell the DCNH subtype. But I don't think it's true. The sub- in subtype is from a logical perspective. In real life, subtype is many times more obvious than sociotype, especially before you get to know the person.
    Last edited by Nowisthetime; 10-14-2012 at 11:16 AM.

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