Fe PoLR: how does it show in ISTps and INTps?

[ashlesha]

We were having a chat on shoutbox about PoLRs and I mentioned this:

"I make jokes and try to make sure everyone in a group i am in is happy and in good spirits, i wonder if that's me trying to compensate for Fe PoLR I dunno"

I thought i'd put it out there on a thread for feedback on Fe PoLR and for suggestions on how to handle it, what if anything I should do different etc.

you use more Fe than i do then

but polr is conscious and ignoring isn't. you could probably attribute this to whatever the hell you want, really.

[Encrustacean]

Cats go meow
Cows go moo
Immature ILEs go 'you aren't listening to feedback' when attempting to game an outcome.

^This is some type of logical fallacy used as a rhetorical device (but I don't feel like looking up which one).

Also if someone's bugging you why don't you take it up with them directly

[InvisibleJim]

^This is some type of logical fallacy used as a rhetorical device (but I don't feel like looking up which one).

Also if someone's bugging you why don't you take it up with them directly

Two wonderful examples!

[Words]

I hugged a tree.

And the tree was good.

[Encrustacean]

Two wonderful examples!

Examples of what?

[Words]

Examples of what?

Hey Spide as much as I love you and I hope you don't hold this against me, and I admire you sticking up for your friend, but i'm sure point is just as capable as IJ in terms of the two of them speaking. I know may not exactly be helping as per my last post, but c'mon..... Maybe IJ made a fair observation on the workings of an ILE?

Or maybe the thread is now exhausted and it is at the stage of random posts about this that and the next thing.

Anyway - IJ has contributed something relevant to my OP, you haven't yet - don't want to be nazi and as I say I like you but I thought this may be worth pointing out. Cheers

[InvisibleJim]

Examples of what?

Ignoratio elenchi

[Encrustacean]

Hey Spide as much as I love you and I hope you don't hold this against me, and I admire you sticking up for your friend, but i'm sure point is just as capable as IJ in terms of the two of them speaking. I know may not exactly be helping as per my last post, but c'mon..... Maybe IJ made a fair observation on the workings of an ILE?

Or maybe the thread is now exhausted and it is at the stage of random posts about this that and the next thing.

Anyway - IJ has contributed something relevant to my OP, you haven't yet - don't want to be nazi and as I say I like you but I thought this may be worth pointing out. Cheers

I asked because I was confused and questioning the relevance of the point made. If it's all about personal vendettas and putting distance between people of supposedly different types (though nobody actually knows for sure what their type is) then isn't that counterproductive from the "understanding socionics" perspective?

And if you don't want me to contribute anymore say so and I won't, but questioning claims is just as important imo as making assertions

[InvisibleJim]

I asked because I was confused and questioning the accuracy of the point made. If it's all about personal vendettas and putting distance between people of supposedly different types (though nobody actually knows for sure what their type is) then isn't that counterproductive from the "understanding socionics" perspective?

And if you don't want me to contribute anymore say so and I won't, but questioning claims is just as important imo as making assertions

I think what you raised was entirely relevant and appropriate in explaining the phenomenon I was describing.

Do you understand why I raised it?

[Words]

I asked because I was confused and questioning the relevance of the point made. If it's all about personal vendettas and putting distance between people of supposedly different types (though nobody actually knows for sure what their type is) then isn't that counterproductive from the "understanding socionics" perspective?

And if you don't want me to contribute anymore say so and I won't, but questioning claims is just as important imo as making assertions

Right OK perhaps I misunderstood. I mean you made a post to IJ asking him why he doesn't take something up with (point) directly. Not sure where the misunderstanding is - but in fairness it is turning out useful to thread in some fashion

As to the relevance of distances between types, maybe it is useful if some types are meant to get on better - ie the nature of their communication results in more understanding/misunderstaning. But sometimes stuff just comes out in the wash due to the type of environment as much as people points than type points.

[Encrustacean]

I think what you raised was entirely relevant and appropriate in explaining the phenomenon I was describing.

Do you understand why I raised it?

I don't - I looked up ignoratio elenchi and that's fair re: second half of my first post, but the first half was questioning (in irritated/bitchy form, granted) how you arrived at that conclusion.

From what I can tell, this "you aren't listening to feedback" is something Fi-polr accuses Fe-polr of, no? How does that work? Can you walk me through the steps, or rephrase it possibly?

[mu4]

Hey Spide as much as I love you and I hope you don't hold this against me, and I admire you sticking up for your friend, but i'm sure point is just as capable as IJ in terms of the two of them speaking. I know may not exactly be helping as per my last post, but c'mon..... Maybe IJ made a fair observation on the workings of an ILE?

Or maybe the thread is now exhausted and it is at the stage of random posts about this that and the next thing.

Anyway - IJ has contributed something relevant to my OP, you haven't yet - don't want to be nazi and as I say I like you but I thought this may be worth pointing out. Cheers

Oh I love the fact that she's done this. It kinda of just made my day.

[InvisibleJim]

I don't - I looked up ignoratio elenchi and that's fair re: second half of my first post, but the first half was questioning (in irritated/bitchy form, granted) how you arrived at that conclusion.

From what I can tell, this "you aren't listening to feedback" is something Fi-polr accuses Fe-polr of, no? How does that work? Can you walk me through the steps, or rephrase it possibly?

I can.

Vulnerable/4th position (PoLR) is stressful, causes irritation and is avoided. Creative/2nd Position is how we interact with others.

Actor a) xLE with Ti(2)/Fi(4) desires to express the theory underpinning the situation and due to a lack of understanding of the internal emotional state of others finds them suspicious and assumes malice when they do not react according to how they have 'ran through the situation in their head'.
Actor b) xLI with Te(2)/Fe(4) desires to express concretely what they think about a problem and its travel vector while having little consideration of the emotional impact on others as that information is extremely low priority.

a) Look, lots of people are BLUE, because I've done the sums and its BLUE okay? <-- Overly strong position adopted that appears to be jumping the gun
b) I don't think that people are BLUE because I've often seen people being GREEN; I think you are being trite. <-- Detects that the gun has truly been jumped. Does not detect the emotional enthusiam of xLE and reciprocate; instead remains dry.
a) Well, that means you are a RED person because you use the word Trite, I think you are *bad adjective* <-- reaction to PoLR hit; inability to understand why the xLI is behaving 'out of order' when the order is internal, not external. Expresses disgust that what they imagined all along has been confirmed.
b) Whatever, you don't understand me or what I said, so whats the point in continuing this discussion. <-- xLI perceives xLE to be extending into the unbelievable by extrapolating so far beyond their experience to become unbelievable and untrustworthy
a) You're ignoring feedback/This is a personal problem with you/You've made a logical fallacy/etc. <-- xLE acts to protect ego position by completely ignoring the point raised by xLI, Ignoratio elenchi

This is a situation that cannot be internally resolved by parties (a) and (b).

Any further interaction on this mode is the equivalent of attempting to fix a hole in the garden by digging deeper.

What was raised originally by point ignored any clear rationale; stating that someone doesn't listen to feedback is nonsense, when they explain quite clearly that they have heard the feedback and have then chosen to ignore it. It is not that the feedback has not been listened to, merely that it has been found wanting. It's impossible for anyone with clear thought to take such a statement seriously.

What you displayed was a splendid example of Ignoratio elenchi; the rationale was underneath and apparent, but it was more comfortable to protect the ego than challenge the premise. Therefore I definately agree that SLE is a good typing for you a perfect response as per the system would expect it to be!

[mu4]

I have posted and talked about what I've said quite extensively and Jim want to make a thing of it with what he says but it's really just some observations I've made. It makes sense and can be investigated for validity. That is all.

The basis of my viewpoint on vulnerable function expression in the context of my whatever statement I made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfectionism_(psychology)

The base function is a area of normal perfectionism. 4 Dimensional, confident, valued and something fundamental to one's self-identity. It is a inert, evalutatory, and accepting function and thus stubborn, judgmental and perceived as almost "objective".

The creative function and role function are contact, situational functions which are tools used to work with society, I won't go into too much here. The creative is a area where one may aspire to superiority and the role is acclimating oneself to social norms.

The vulnerable function is a area of neurotic perfectionism due to the anxiety this function creates in the individual, there are many life situations where we necessarily use our vulnerable function to create relationships, produce work, socialize, cook, and whatever task and analysis one must do which requires the engagement or at least simulation of this function.

And in the act of engaging or simulating the tasks of this functions creates opportunities by which the vulnerable function can be criticized, when it happens to be perceived poorly by other individuals. This criticism is painful and can create a hostile reaction from the individual criticized which if engaging with individuals who react negatively in return can create a feedback loop of criticism and eventually devolve into conflict and disharmony.

I have noted this specific process occur for Words in the chat box.

1. Words makes a joke to join the socialization
2. Lungs, me, Pers, others tell him off and get annoyed at him
3. He lashes back
4. Conflict esclates

I'm not going to make a judgement on who is at fault in these conflicts, but they do occur and will occur in the future.

These are just observations I've made of behavior, and I've tried to explain them. Go test them out or something.

[mu4]

a) Look, lots of people are BLUE, because I've done the sums and its BLUE okay? <-- Overly strong position adopted that appears to be jumping the gun
b) I don't think that people are BLUE because I've often seen people being GREEN; I think you are being trite. <-- Detects that the gun has truly been jumped. Does not detect the emotional enthusiam of xLE and reciprocate; instead remains dry.
a) Well, that means you are a RED person because you use the word Trite, I think you are *bad adjective* <-- reaction to PoLR hit; inability to understand why the xLI is behaving 'out of order' when the order is internal, not external. Expresses disgust that what they imagined all along has been confirmed.
b) Whatever, you don't understand me or what I said, so whats the point in continuing this discussion. <-- xLI perceives xLE to be extending into the unbelievable by extrapolating so far beyond their experience to become unbelievable and untrustworthy
a) You're ignoring feedback/This is a personal problem with you/You've made a logical fallacy/etc. <-- xLE acts to protect ego position by completely ignoring the point raised by xLI, Ignoratio elenchi

Let's put this into a humorous context.

a. Women are being oppressed.
b. Not all men
a. MRA cunt
b. I'm not, you don't get my nuanced position
a. Women are being oppressed.

I find it typical asshole logic to avoid the real problems of the world or weasel their way out of stuff.

[Persephone]

Oh this is actually another Words' typing thread

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

No Fe polr person I've ever known does that, they always just act stern/super logical. It would be painfully awkward for them to do that sort of thing.

More generally it could just be a loving person with a warm heart that genuinely cares that other people are feeling well... or it could be an insecure person that is trying too hard to avoid conflict and think they can solve problems by 'everybody just being nice all the time.' (an ideal, but not very realistic) So maybe some sort of enneagram 9 rather than socionics.

[Aylen]

Oh this is actually another Words' typing thread

Perhaps the answer is too well hidden.

6. Extroverted ethics

SLEs find themselves unable to adequately raise an emotionally dull atmosphere, which is why they greatly appreciate another individual proficient in this function. SLEs naturally gravitate towards warm, cheerful atmospheres. If an SLE makes a social move that doesn't get the emotional response he expects, he will feel uneasy or offended e.g. if no one laughs at a joke he tells.

In large groups or groups of new acquaintances, SLEs sometimes inadvertently estrange themselves from everyone else, which may give off a negative impression. The SLE may assume this contrary attitude in order to seek Fe while preserving the atmosphere of the group. If another individual shows acceptance of the SLE, he will immediately brighten and join the now warmer emotional mood. Alternatively, if the SLE fails to receive the desired emotional cues, he will further distance himself from the situation, highly averse to "being a drag" to the group dynamic.

There seems to be an "emotional contradiction" with the SLE; there is a constant internal struggle to both reveal to others their true feelings and a desire to guard themselves from adverse people or situations. He finds it extremely difficult - almost unnatural - to express his deepest feelings about an experience he's had. SLEs try to avoid looking vulnerable, weak or dependent, which is why they appear to be such closely guarded individuals. SLEs will, like any other logical type, attempt to keep their feelings under control and subordinate to their reasoning. They refuse to let their emotions complicate professional relationships, and make a conscious effort to maintain the same emotionality with all.

SLEs are unable to suppress the manifestations of their moods, and thus greatly appreciate individuals who can deal with their sudden, uncontrollable outbursts of emotions. For many SLEs, expressive activities such as acting, musical performance or even religion serve as ideal "ethical vents", helping to give them the emotional release they struggle to find in other areas of society.

[Mega]

Let's put this into a humorous context.

a. Women are being oppressed.
b. Not all men
a. MRA cunt
b. I'm not, you don't get my nuanced position
a. Women are being oppressed.

I find it typical asshole logic to avoid the real problems of the world or weasel their way out of stuff.

I seriously hope this is untrue. "a" types are assholes. Can't have a proper discussion with 'em

[mu4]

I seriously hope this is untrue. "a" types are assholes. Can't have a proper discussion with 'em

End of the day a = introverted rationality, depending on what it is.

Introverted rationality is basically stubborn immobile and categorical.

The example I put out there is more Ij vs Ip as well. Temperament divide. EXTp tend to just cut people off and walk away rather than have to deal with the argument. It's the Ip/Ij's that go on forever... and ever and ever... circular logical fallacies into oblivion. Ep/Ej's tend to be like.. what is this... gotta go do stuff.. Extratim.

Also Ip's can bring this stuff up all the time without any prompting, see Invisible Jim. Words didn't even mention me in the OP and Jim's gotta bring me into it. Typical Ip. It's a whatevs.

[chemical]

One can use stuff like this for instance:

His emotional state depends on how he is treated by others. Feels depressed, if others do not grant him attention, if nobody responds to his proposals and objections. If he is in poor mood, do not try to comfort and cheer him, but leave him alone with his thoughts of express indirect sympathy. In dealing with strangers, he can be polite, behave as a well-mannered and intelligent person. Has a diplomatic streak; can work on reconciling the interests of all parties. To close interpersonal distance and strike up a friendship, he jokes, behaves in a playful and unrestrained manner. However, if the other party does not respond, he stop his attempts at rapprochement.

Gulenko's overall depiction.

Estimates attitudes towards himself by displays of emotions. Boisterous, intrusive, emotions he finds irritating; they have a subduing and depressing effect on him. In extreme situations, or when he feels hidden antagonism, he can openly express his annoyance, fly off the handle and make demands in a sharp manner. If his state is poor, he transforms it into black humor. Can deliver a short, acerbic remark. His gravitation towards other people is once again dependent on his current mood. In high spirits he can even be obsessive and intrusive; in poor mood he withdraws and rests in seclusion.

also is from Gulenko. (On INTp)

Short answer from me is that much as in enneagram, where I don't like reducing a type to a bunch of traits, I think it is better to allow for a lot of variability in the exact traits, and note the polr is just the last point of the 4-element cycle, and you tend to mis-estimate what exactly is required there to keep things flowing smoothly.

[chemical]

I think it is fair to say polr is not something you ignore; you either work at it compulsively or at least note it with irritation or should acknowledge its polr-ness somehow (it is the conscious point of low control). What you're like "whatever" about would seem more the ignoring function.

[Aleksei]

We were having a chat on shoutbox about PoLRs and I mentioned this:

"I make jokes and try to make sure everyone in a group i am in is happy and in good spirits, i wonder if that's me trying to compensate for Fe PoLR I dunno"

I thought i'd put it out there on a thread for feedback on Fe PoLR and for suggestions on how to handle it, what if anything I should do different etc.

This isn't vulnerable. vulnerable is characterized by a simple refusal to deal with people's feelings, mostly via either just ignoring people or getting out of their way when they get too intense. xLIs respond to admonitions related to their attitudes ( feedback), but not really to being included, much less trying to proactively include others.

"making jokes to make sure everyone is happy" strikes me as a proactive response of the type you'd encounter in a - extrotim type -- any Alpha or Gamma extrotim.

[Persephone]

This isn't vulnerable. vulnerable is characterized by a simple refusal to deal with people's feelings, mostly via either just ignoring people or getting out of their way when they get too intense. xLIs respond to admonitions related to their attitudes ( feedback), but not really to being included, much less trying to proactively include others.

"making jokes to make sure everyone is happy" strikes me as a proactive response of the type you'd encounter in a - extrotim type -- any Alpha or Gamma extrotim.

Fe in Gamma?

[The Martrix]

Fe in Gamma?

Could be Fe-Role in an LIE.

[Aleksei]

Fe in Gamma?

People's subdued elements actually play a pretty major role in their life; particularly the demonstrative and the role. For Gammas, manifests as an enforced ideal (connection to ) that keeping positive is a good "attitude" to have. That's why, for instance, LIE descriptions tend to paint them as very upbeat.

[Olimpia]

Looks like this.



(I type him SLI, but ofc not just because of that gif.)

[Chae]

Left - ESE
Middle - IEI
Right - SLI

[Chae]

Looks like this.



(I type him SLI, but ofc not just because of that gif.)

This is gold, it looks like he just spotted an impressive man bun!

[wasp]

Fe PoLr is like... "hey burt, push your girlfriend off the bridge and we'll love you forever!" [xLI loves his girlfriend] "no."
Fi PoLR is like... "hey ernie, push your girlfriend off the bridge and we'll love you forever!" [xLE can't even remember his gf's name] "ok!"

[para]

Revival: How is Fe PoLR different between ILI and SLI?

[Number 9 large]

Revival: How is Fe PoLR different between ILI and SLI?

It isnt

[para]

It isnt

I mean: How does Fe PoLR get affected by Ni/Se, Si/Ne valuied difference? It doesn't?

[Number 9 large]

I mean: How does Fe PoLR get affected by Ni/Se, Si/Ne valuied difference? It doesn't?

Not really

[myresearch]

Revival: How is Fe PoLR different between ILI and SLI?

They can show similar characteristics. SLIs tend to be more sarcastic when they display Fe bursts. ILI tend to complain about their situation and problems when they display Fe bursts.

[Alomoes]

Don't ask me to try and console anyone who is not being irrational. I can console someone who is being irrational by proving that what they believe is incorrect. I did that once to a person that believed they couldn't win. I corrected him by saying it was unlikely that we'd win, but if we at least try...

Although that might not be rationality, I think you get the gist. Also I didn't meantion it was unlikely that we'd win, because that's counterproductive to winning.

[Tenebris]

Yeah my Fe tends to come out in a emo fashion, and I can't deal with serious emotions without turning them into a fucking joke.

[The Reality Denialist]

Ethical dilemmas are not the way to describe it. How a person directs ethical functions is another matter and the end result is not determined by those dimensionalities.

But yeah, Fe PoLR usually means huge awkwardness in emotional expression (painful conscious function) and being afraid of it in extreme cases whereas Fi PoLR is more afraid of how others link themselves in relation to them (painful conscious function) so they might speak in terms of judgments that do not really match relational qualities.

[Danali]

they hate hugs

[Beautiful sky]

Seriousness and serious tone