Talking about plans vs Making plans happen

[Cosmic Teapot]

Hi there,
some time ago @sorrows started a thread where we concluded that LSIs can get frustrated with ESEs tendency to talk about plans without necessary fulfilling them. As far as I understood it ESEs enjoy exploring the possibility by talking and don't need to necessarily act on it.

My Question: Is that one of the main traits in the Alpha Quadra or does that happen in other Quadras, too? (One of my friends is ESE)

I'm asking because I'm growing increasingly frustrated with my current circle of acquaintances where talks about possible vacations and trips never come to fruition. It's just going to the cinema, eating fast food or sitting at home watching movies. And as much as I like just laying around and enjoying lazy moments and a cozy atmosphere... I feel like I'm stuck with unfulfilled possibilities and I wonder if I'm just weird about it.

Edit: most of the time I'm doing those kind of trips on my own. I'm a loner so that's usually not a problem but not being able to excite my friends to move their butt and hold their promisses makes me feel very lonely. I think I need new people around me. But what kind of people?

[Iwantpeace]

Sounds Se polr, very Eii imo. Some ILE will do this too.

[chrys]

I get energized from thinking about doing things. I guess for me having a goal or vision in mind is good for keeping myself optimistic. That and inertia is hard to overcome.

[chrys]

I actually think the things I do most are impulsive and not planned. Plans are just for the hype really.

[Cosmic Teapot]

Nvm. I found what I need

The ESFj lives in a state of constant expectation of some unlikely events that will in the most unexpected manner overturn his entire life. That is, he lives in a constant expectation of a miracle. Often mentions his premonitions of upcoming changes. Subconsciously keeps himself prepared for these changes. Sometimes the ESFj feels an unexpected desire to make some purchase based on these expectations of possible changes ("One day I will leave the house and suddenly meet my "prince!... By the way, in what dress will I meet him?..")

Ni blocked with Te:
Alpha types are less likely to make investments that require long-term commitment and upkeep. They prefer short-term investments that offer a reliable outcome with minimal involvement.

Ne blocked with Ti:

Alpha types are inclined to discuss highly theoretical concepts as a source of intellectual stimulation and fun rather than for their practical merits.

And also:

Ne as a demonstrative (8th) function (EIE and LIE)
The individual is fairly good at generating all sorts of ideas, but doesn't himself take the ideas seriously and views the activity as a sort of entertaining exercise lacking in value.

[Cosmic Teapot]

Ne blocked with Fi:
Delta types like to talk about new beginnings, opportunities for personal growth, and their plans and prospects for the future.

Haven't found anything about actually doing those plans. ime it's positivists whose promisses are just hot air.

[Hope]

Haven't found anything about actually doing those plans. ime it's positivists whose promisses are just hot air.

Positivists are ENTx, ESFx, ISTx, INFx.
Negativists are ISFx, INTx, ENFx, ESTx.

[Cosmic Teapot]

Positivists are ENTx, ESFx, ISTx, INFx.
Negativists are ISFx, INTx, ENFx, ESTx.

I'm aware of this, thanks (:

[Exodus]

Exploring a possibility without acting on it sounds like Ne as opposed to Se. In my experience ESEs don't have an issue with this due to Se demonstrative - more likely culprits are Ne ego types.

[maniac]

Its called depression/laziness, but laziness comes with depression.

[Cosmic Teapot]

Exploring a possibility without acting on it sounds like Ne as opposed to Se. In my experience ESEs don't have an issue with this due to Se demonstrative - more likely culprits are Ne ego types.

Its called depression/laziness, but laziness comes with depression.

Thanks for your input.

It does not have to do anything with being afraid to explore possibilities and plans or depression. The ESE I'm talking about is a very active person with a wide circle of acquaintances. She and two other girl, we sometimes have gathering where we have a pleasent get together and it worked fine for some years but I'm starting to feel irritated with her tendency to make us excited for ideas (especially me. I'm a sucker for new exciting trips, cities, environments) and then she just lets it go. It's more convenient to just go to the cinema or host a gathering at her home and do nothing that is physically straining.
Are there similar issues in other quadras? So EII seems to be a common culprit for this (despite other reasons). But what about Gammas and Betas?


Btw. When it comes to the ESE I'm talking about...She is pretty much this person:

[Adam Strange]

I usually don't tell people I'm going to do something until I've either planned it out to be a certainty or I've already done it. I do involve the people first whom I need to make something happen, but only them.

In my own case, I think I do this because constantly telling everyone that I want to do this or that and then find out I can't will induce exactly the kind of fatigue that you mention.

And my concern with inducing this fatigue in others might stem from my dual being Ne-PoLR. I believe we are all oriented to match best with duals.

Incidentally, my SLI father's career in the military really took off when a general noticed that the operations he planned always had the needed supplies in place and happened exactly as planned. My SLI ex-wife would plan family vacations which always went off without a hitch. And my SLI son travels across the country taking pictures of trains for their advertising.

Once I was driving to Boston for some business and he wanted to come along, since it was just a two-day trip, and he brought his camera. At mid-morning in some New England town with goat-path roads, he suddenly asked to take a short detour and to park across a bridge in a closed Auto Parts store parking lot. I thought, what?, but took the detour. As soon as we parked, he calmly went to the car's trunk, got his professional camera, turned it on, adjusted it as he sauntered slowly across the road to the bridge railing, raised his camera, and at that moment, a new train engine thundered out of the trees onto the adjacent bridge over the river. His camera went zzip-zzip-zzip-zzip once, and then twice, and he returned to the car. I asked him what the hell was that about, and he said the train company was testing a new train engine and that was its maiden voyage and he was going to sell the pictures to the train company for its advertising.
Best planning I've ever seen.

If I were running a military operation, I'd want these planning and resource allocation guys on my side.

[Exodus]

Thanks for your input.

It does not have to do anything with being afraid to explore possibilities and plans or depression. The ESE I'm talking about is a very active person with a wide circle of acquaintances. She and two other girl, we sometimes have gathering where we have a pleasent get together and it worked fine for some years but I'm starting to feel irritated with her tendency to make us excited for ideas (especially me. I'm a sucker for new exciting trips, cities, environments) and then she just lets it go. It's more convenient to just go to the cinema or host a gathering at her home and do nothing that is physically straining.
Are there similar issues in other quadras? So EII seems to be a common culprit for this (despite other reasons). But what about Gammas and Betas?

What you're saying is consistent with ESE, although I haven't personally seen this in ESEs it's possible. There might be an element of Fe here in the sense of exaggerating or saying things that aren't serious.

[ouronis]

A more constructive way of thinking about it is that each one of those ideas may not come to fruition, but that they are (may be) sort of tests building up to a critical mass upon which one or several of the ideas will be acted on.

So that way there's less of a feeling that nothing's happening period and more of a "how do I push these things toward their critical mass?"

[Cosmic Teapot]

A more constructive way of thinking about it is that each one of those ideas may not come to fruition, but that they are (may be) sort of tests building up to a critical mass upon which one or several of the ideas will be acted on.

Could you please elaborate on the bold part? I don't understand it but I want to.

[ouronis]

Could you please elaborate on the bold part? I don't understand it but I want to.

Basically, it might not be that they are never going to act on them, just that at the stage they're at when conceptualized, they haven't hit the right points of structure or energy for the person, so you should think about how that person is influenced in general, and begin interjecting your initial talks with little testers that will tell you based on the person's reaction whether the idea will live or die. Such as, "what is it that you like about the idea?" If they give you an answer that seems more concrete or inspired than not, it's probably likely they're actually thinking about doing it.
After this, you should again try to influence their motivation/feeling of inspiration by bringing it up every so often.

Beyond that however, doing this you'll see if they have any enthusiasm for doing some of these ideas in general. And you can use that building enthusiasm in the future to make it hit its critical mass where they actually want to do the thing (whatever it is that comes up next).

Sounds like a lot, but it really doesn't take much. Most of the work is done when you're not around.

[ApeironStella]

Hmm....

Nowadays, I rarely make plans. But I've observed that ESE-LSI "Wouldn't it be nice to" vs "We can't afford that/That would be unreasonable/We don't need that/If you actually do have a plan stop talking about it and just. do. it." with my parents. For me, it is 50-50. Sometimes I will think of doing something/buying something but if there is no urgent reason to do so, or if I am not as motivated enough (I actually do take some motivation from outside, now that I think about it) I often tend to let it just be.

With friends, same applies only if there isn't a specific plan they come up with. If they or I say "hey maybe we should go somewhere/To X place", anything won't come out of this. If they are/I am like "Hey, want to go to X on Y date together/Do you have free time that day?" despite having a fixed time slightly stressing me, I often times do end up doing that with other.

So it is highly dependant on the context, how much I feel like doing it and how willing either of the sides is to take the planning it out to their hands.

For personal things, most plans just stay as plans though, even if I do (or especially if I do) figure out how I can do them best as there is no challenge left with that.

Edit: I think it is something a lot more likely to show up in Alpha quadra, but in that case, making distinction of "that would be nice" and "I want this" as well as conveying that is important. With Ni-Se valuing quadras, they often times only talk about something if they do plan it (and often times they don't even voice it out loud and just do it) while Alpha quadra (not as certain with Delta) tends to talk about possibilities so what is a pleasant topic to talk vs what is something a person really, truly want to do needs to be expressed to some extent for it to be actually being planned.

[Syynth]

As far as I understood it ESEs enjoy exploring the possibility by talking and don't need to necessarily act on it.

Sitting back and talking about ideas and possibilities is how Alphas socialize, and is not always meant to be a productive brainstorming session. Betas also require this Fe dialogue, but when paired with Se they instead indulge in unproductive posturing and shit talking.

When planning something they actually intend to do, they will typically work through the details themselves and then try to sell their plan to others. If your friends never propose anything besides eating fast food and sitting at home, it is because they are lazy, not because they are Alphas.

[lemontrees]

I follow through on most of my plans.

I'm very slow and I'm not great at going along with other people's plans.

But i think i miss out on variety...

[Aylen]

They are still EJs. I think that kind of flakiness is more associated with EPs. IPs flake too but for different reasons.

SEEs generally exhibit chaotic and uncontrolled lifestyles. They are motivated by their impulses and momentary feelings, and may have difficulty carrying themselves to fulfill day-to-day obligations and responsibilities. To the extent that their external obligations permit it, they tend to be habitually unstructured and vagarious. They do not engage in systematic decision-making and may instead base their behaviors on whimsical desires. They avoid restricting or regimenting their lifestyles based on rational or "common sense" behaviors and can resist attempts to bring order and stability to their lives.

They may have difficulty following externally imposed rules on their behavior, and may automatically resist being told what to do in matters pertaining to their lifestyle. They may have difficulty adapting their naturally impetuous lifestyle to some situations. Convincing them to change their ways is a gradual, tiresome and often thankless process, best accomplished by persons whose judgment they trust fully.

SEEs are often inclined to disregard what they see as petty rules and procedures, especially if those require a high investment of time and concentration in order to be understood and implemented, while blocking the SEEs from achieving their goals. If they are suddenly stopped in their tracks by external forces because of a previous disregard for such rules, they can lash out in frustration and impatience, while feeling helpless and angry at having been so sidetracked.

Perceiving vs. Judging

Perceiving types are motivated into activity by the changes in a situation. Judging types are motivated into activity by their decisions resulting from the changes in a situation. The most common differences between Perceiving and Judging types are shown below:

Perceiving types act impulsively following the situation can start many things at once without finishing them properly prefer to have freedom from obligations are curious and like a fresh look at things work productivity depends on their mood often act without any preparation

Judging types do not like to leave unanswered questions plan work ahead and tend to finish it do not like to change their decisions have relatively stable workability easily follow rules and discipline

http://www.socionics.com/main/types.htm

[Desert Financial]

It sounds like a perceiver trait to generate possibilities without follow up. Extraverted perceivers tend to do this at a higher frequency. Strongest correlation is probably with base types.

[epheme]

I see this in my mom's ESE husband but I think it's due to my mother's influence. She is IEE and will come up with an idea, get really excited about it, get him excited about it, he'll start to make plans surrounding it, and then my mom will move onto something else like it never happened. I can't even tell you how many ideas for businesses, etc., they have come up with and then when I see them several months later they're onto something completely different.


So basically I don't take anything they say seriously. At one point they had a business idea and tried to get my husband involved. My husband was actually somewhat interested and considered helping them and I had to tell him like, no way was this actually going to happen, so don't invest any time or money towards it. Of course, next time we saw them they had some other new idea and never brought it up again. My husband was like ???


Generally I don't see this ESE as being flaky in the slightest, so I really just think it's my mom's influence.

[Bertrand]

there's a difference between Ne ideas and Fe promises, the former are like what ifs that precede any sort of actual commitment; it would be more accurate to label them as talk about possibilities or potential plans but not actual plans. Fe types are known to promise things simply to improve relations, but they see them as contingent on being practicable to carry out. So if someone says "lets go to beerfest in march" and someone is like "I'm so down" and march rolls around and they're busy or otherwise can't or don't want to make it for some reason they're unlikely to rearrange everything so as to make it work. In all likelihood the excitement back in December about beerfest was the goal, so there's no reason to follow through on something that already achieved its purpose, if its going to incur a detriment.

Types with weak intuition of time don't even recognize them as "false promises" as such [1] so of course few people actually think of themselves as "flaky", except perhaps people using it in active defense. Like "I can be kind of flaky--so be sure to check in with me when it gets closer if you still want to go" this is actually intuition of time anticipating future-self not being into it (or future Te conflicts) and giving fair warning that they won't fully commit until when it gets closer they still want to go. ESE if they put something on their calendar is likely to carry it out, although whatever it is may be complicated by other concurring plans, but they're usually pretty good about checking the block on everything in a "bring your kids to work" kind of way. Meaning they won't fail to carry out a definite commitment but they may compromise what was tacitly expected in a lot of ways, if necessary (this may be a result of being oriented at the pedantic logic of LII, meaning the letter, not necessarily the spirit of the commitment controls, if pressed).

Promising things just to improve relations is often a Fe creative thing. people with strong (not necessarily valued) Ni are likely to be most aware of their own "flakiness." Te types are likely to hedge on the basis of that self knowledge, where Fe tends to just let things go (they tend not to hold stuff over people's heads because they view statements as somewhat flexible to begin with). If someone backs out on a Fe type they're likely to not take it out on them, or judge them too harshly, unless they really really wanted whatever it was or there was a firm commitment

[1] they tend to collapse time and reason something like "I never promised this because I couldn't have promised two things at once, so it was never what I meant, or what the other person should have thought I meant"

[Hope]

I see this in my mom's ESE husband but I think it's due to my mother's influence. She is IEE and will come up with an idea, get really excited about it, get him excited about it, he'll start to make plans surrounding it, and then my mom will move onto something else like it never happened. I can't even tell you how many ideas for businesses, etc., they have come up with and then when I see them several months later they're onto something completely different.


So basically I don't take anything they say seriously. At one point they had a business idea and tried to get my husband involved. My husband was actually somewhat interested and considered helping them and I had to tell him like, no way was this actually going to happen, so don't invest any time or money towards it. Of course, next time we saw them they had some other new idea and never brought it up again. My husband was like ???


Generally I don't see this ESE as being flaky in the slightest, so I really just think it's my mom's influence.

This
100%

[at sirac son of sirac]

I was thinking about something like this recently.

An ESE I know, when making plans, gathers her information for making plans through talking with people. On the other hand, i'll gather my information by research of articles, books, then make my own assessment on how to act.

Someone might say, oh that ESE isn't doing anything, just sitting around talking about doing stuff, but it's not, it's a pretty useful data gathering method.

When we've worked on the same thing, it's been useful to share my knowledge, and for the ESE to share her experience gained through talking with others.

So I suppose what i'm saying is, we all have our ways of gathering information to make our plans, and there's something to be learned from everyones method.

[Sol]

P, N types may talk about plans much and do small

J-S types should to have the least of it

[FDG]

It´s not socionics related in my experience.

[Tallmo]

There is no (natural) connection between making plans and fulfilling them. One is fantasy the other action. They are almost opposites. So no wonder plans dont lead to fulfillment. They need to be brought closer to each other so that the plans are realistic and broken down into steps that can be accomplished. The action needs to start with small things that activates the movement towards the goal.

[Rebelondeck]

Ejs prefer to get things closed quickly so they tend to work on smaller chunks of projects so as to get this quick closure; however, when they get focused on one aspect, they can lose sight of the bigger picture. Now Ijs hardly ever lose sight of the complete project but usually have to stop themselves from planning or second guessing themselves (or have an Ej force them) - actually starting a project can be fraught with upfront Ij-delays. Once Ijs actually start, they can become obsessive about finishing but they tend to spread themselves really thin and not relay their needs to others, which aren't issues for Ejs. One might see rationale here for a need to have a mixture of the two temperaments on production projects. Ijs may not like talking that much about plans but can they ever stew about them. So making things actually happen is a matter of perspective.......
a.k.a. I/O

[lemontrees]

There is no (natural) connection between making plans and fulfilling them. One is fantasy the other action. They are almost opposites. So no wonder plans dont lead to fulfillment. They need to be brought closer to each other so that the plans are realistic and broken down into steps that can be accomplished. The action needs to start with small things that activates the movement towards the goal.

This is such a disorienting viewpoint (not judging - just noticing). I think I think of plans as being a blueprint of action. You could follow through or not, but the intention, defined in "plan", would be to take action. Fantasy sort of belongs in another category.

That's why, there's some shame or self-loathing attached to not being able to follow through on a plan, but not on fantasizing. Although fantasizing is lovely too, and I should probably fantasize on more activities to open up my mind and world.

[Spermatozoa]

I don't make fixed plans often, and when I do they're rarely very detailed. Often I will just act without much of a plan but just based on impulse when I see something that I want. I will also often change the plans I do make to accommodate what I desire at the time, and my wants change very frequently depending on my mood. However, in almost every case, I will follow through on what I decide to do, and have enough natural charisma and energy to often make up for my rather low conscientiousness. Left to my own devices, I will have sudden insight and extreme bursts of productivity, which are typically then followed by a longer period of inertia. This closely follows my mood - the happier I feel, the more I can get done.

For this reason I try, perhaps too hard, to impose some kind of structure upon myself and turn my energy spikes into a more moderate and constant flow. I sometimes wonder whether I would just be best to accept that this is how I am and roll with it, but that goes against my philosophy of constant self improvement. I need to be a reliable worker to succeed in life.

[Tallmo]

This is such a disorienting viewpoint (not judging - just noticing). I think I think of plans as being a blueprint of action. You could follow through or not, but the intention, defined in "plan", would be to take action. Fantasy sort of belongs in another category.

That's why, there's some shame or self-loathing attached to not being able to follow through on a plan, but not on fantasizing. Although fantasizing is lovely too, and I should probably fantasize on more activities to open up my mind and world.

You can label plans as "bluleprints of action", but they are still fantasies. You sit with your friends and make up "plans" for a great summer vacation. Where you will go, what you will do, how great it will be etc. This is all fantasy. It is only because of the social context, or a desire of action, that we call it "plans".

This is why people have problems following through. They don't realize that all is unreal, because of the "plans" label. But then begins the actual tedious work of saving money, synchronizing calendars, putting pressure on that lazy friend who hasn't done his part etc.

All this is something very different from just making plans.

I am basically just pointing out the huge gap between "making plans" and "following through". It's up to each one of us to make the jump over that gap and no matter how much you plan you are still on your own making that jump.

[lemontrees]

You can label plans as "bluleprints of action", but they are still fantasies. You sit with your friends and make up "plans" for a great summer vacation. Where you will go, what you will do, how great it will be etc. This is all fantasy. It is only because of the social context, or a desire of action, that we call it "plans".

This is why people have problems following through. They don't realize that all is unreal, because of the "plans" label. But then begins the actual tedious work of saving money, synchronizing calendars, putting pressure on that lazy friend who hasn't done his part etc.

All this is something very different from just making plans.

I am basically just pointing out the huge gap between "making plans" and "following through". It's up to each one of us to make the jump over that gap and no matter how much you plan you are still on your own making that jump.

I don't think you were wrong, just sharing my feelings. Out of all of the posts in this thread, yours was the most interesting because it felt the furthest from how my brain processes "plan".

[xerx]

I have never drafted a plan for anything in my life and wouldn't be able to follow through on one even if I tried. The whole concept of regimenting my actions around some rigid algorithm sounds pointless, and the time it would it take to make it more robust to changing circumstances seems better spent actually getting things done. Moreover, it's too mentally straining to subordinate my actions to any sort of obligatory procedure that requires you to compartmentalize your life.

I can think a few steps ahead of what I need and I'm pretty good at just finishing things on the fly; things seem to work out ok-ishly most of the time.

[Cosmic Teapot]

Sitting back and talking about ideas and possibilities is how Alphas socialize, and is not always meant to be a productive brainstorming session. Betas also require this Fe dialogue, but when paired with Se they instead indulge in unproductive posturing and shit talking.

When planning something they actually intend to do, they will typically work through the details themselves and then try to sell their plan to others. If your friends never propose anything besides eating fast food and sitting at home, it is because they are lazy, not because they are Alphas.

Your post kept me thinking about the issue. You nailed it. I'm making it more complicated than it is. They're lazy as fuck and I can't continue like that.

[ashlesha]

I don't talk about things I don't actually want to do or that I think aren't actually possible but sometimes I talk about things I want to do as a way to hear feedback about whether it's a good idea or to get encouragement and it can wither if I don't get that. A lot of the time I end up doing something different than what I originally thought about, but it led there - like I was talking about going into boxing, but after doing research into what was available in my area it ended up being karate instead.

The person I know irl who talks > does the most is actually my sle brother. He always has these big plans about how he's gonna make a lot of money or something and he's so shiny eyed when he talks about it, like if you don't know better you'll get all excited for him. But he's too caught up in whatevers going on in the moment to persistently follow one long term idea. It makes him come across as kind of a shyster but he really means it at the time.