if its the Se that causes the temper, wouldnt Se leads have bigger tempers?Originally Posted by queentiger
if its the Se that causes the temper, wouldnt Se leads have bigger tempers?
Force =/= a temper
Huehuehueheuehe
And demo force is?
I don’t necessarily agree with her explanation, just that IME LSEs are the angriest and are forceful about it. It’s been written about in LSE descriptions too apparently.
No, I specifically said demonstrative for a reason. Se leads typically are more aware of when they need to apply force and when they don't, demonstrative Se has an issue with this. LSEs will commonly apply pressure and force (aggression) when they really don't need to and think of it as a solution for every problem. ESEs are usually somewhat better at it as their Fe lead is more emotionally aware.
Demo Se has same strength as lead Se + they dont even value Se, they prefer Si over Se, so...
Demonstrative function is used rarely because it directly opposes creative function
Ips are the most reactive types with very defensive natures so there's a greater probability that those without self-control may often act before they think; many Ejs can be quick to anger but they tend to be slightly more controlled. However, every type is capable of immediate anger, and some of them very capable of violence given the right upbringing and circumstances. More than the temperamental, I tend to be be concerned with that subset of every type who are unforgiving and vindictive, which are traits that seem to be more prevalent with Ijs and Eps.......
a.k.a I/O
Same strength yes, but the Se in Se leads is more controlled because it comes more naturally to them as it is valued. The fact it is the same strength but not valued is precisely why it is more out of control in the LSE.
You fuckers don't know shit.
If temper is a bad general trait that anyone could have, then presumably it is correlated with the trait of Neuroticism. INTPs are supposedly the most neurotic personality in terms of I/E, N/S, T/F, P/J correlations to the trait of Neuroticism. So that may be one answer. However, if you associate "temper" with for example impulsivity and/or emotionality and/or extraversion "action" or "frequency of interaction", you could just as easily make a case for EXFP.
its not more out of control cuz the strength is the same
It's not just about strength, that's only one factor. The key difference you are ignoring is valued vs unvalued. The lead function is more natural to the user, so therefore the user has a better grasp and as such more control over it.
You guys always misunderstand me and take my words out of context.
i dont think you understand that the lead and demonstrative are equally strong, in case of creative subtype the demonstrative is said to be even stronger than the lead.
I don't think you understand I'm not on about how "strong" it is.
having a better grasp/control over a function means you master it better right? that means its stronger in you.
Depends what you mean by "stronger". I was referring to the fact that typically those with strong, valued Se typically know when to be aggressive and apply force better than those with strong unvalued Se. Therefore, we can make the jump that those with strong but unvalued Se will be more aggressive and perceived as having a worse temper.
Thats the whole point. They dont because the strength of the function is the same. So they both equally know when to apply force and how much. + Se demos dont actually value pressuring others so will do it only sporadically, whereas Se leads will do it more often because it is their lead function, assuming that having a temper equals Se.
Well it’s not just about Se. It’s about being Te leading and rational and aristocratic, tending to be in positions of authority, not caring about Fe and their emotional impact as much, and all of that too.
Nobody needs to argue about functions. Just experience life. If you’ve never met or gotten yelled at by at least one crazy anal LSE at some point then you’ve been living in a hole. Luckily you can go read Strat’s LSE-EII duality description if you’ve missed out on such lovely experiences.
How is temper type-related? I have a very bad temper that comes and goes depending on my state of depression. I think it's just a mental health issue.
SLE's more often than not
LSI-Ti get pretty uncontrollably angry, LSI-Se are calmer internally and externally, although some LSI-Se get angry; not sure why LSI is seen as a type that doesn't get angry, because many of them do get angry while many LSI-Se are calm no matter what; but LSI-Ti really aren't calm especially inside. LSI-Ti really don't even seem like static types, that has to do with why they often get mistyped as Delta STs. LSI-Ti are really imbalanced and stressed out.
Types with worst temper would probably LSE and EIE-Ni. EIE-Fe is quite a bit calmer than EIE-Ni. EIE-Ni still seem more controlled than LSE though.
I'm sorry, but I'm psychologically disturbed.
Everyone gets angry, everyone can have a temper, it's not type related.
The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.
The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".
worst to best temper
1. SLE LSE SLI
2. LSI EIE
3.ESE ILI ESI ILE *LIE IEI LII SEI
4. *SEE
5. IEE
6. EII
SEE anger is weird bc they hate u but dont but are angry? just Ti PoLR things
LIE isnt so angry but like has everything under control so they dont (have to?) indulge in it? i cant fight them they just force me to do things. i bend for them too easily. and they tend to listen to me somewhat or i think they're somewhat right.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
8w9's
The part you said about it being related to neuroticism is, of course, correct. However, I'm not sure where you collected your data from, but my resources (which I always ensure are dependable) state otherwise. Neuroticism is the one facet of the Big 5 that lacks any significant correlation with personality types.
Openness = Sensing/iNtuition
Conscientiousness = Perceiving/Judging
Extroversion = Introversion/Extroversion
Agreeableness = Feeling/Thinking
Neuroticism = None
Those are the correlations with MBTI. I haven't bothered to look into things with Socionics, but I know Se will correlate with both Extroversion (assertiveness facet) and Sensing, so it's most likely a bit more partitioned. It's clear based on IE definitions alone, though, that there should not be any overlap with Neuroticism except POTENTIALLY in the Ethics Information Metabolism Elements, particularlyFe. However, even that is not necessarily overlapping; the
«relational ethics» don't necessarily require strong negative* emotional reserves to be the most prevalent IEs in an individual. Both Ethics IEs have in common «energy», alternatively referred to as inner emotional states, but to correlate this with the emotional facets of neuroticism/extroversion would be an assumption. This is at least partly due to the fact that having a strong focus on the inner states doesn't intrinsically indicate that there is a strong presence of the inner states. I think this automatically becomes more apparent when those who seek out emotional experiences (which is actually Openness related, btw) are observed. That is not to say that all who seek out emotional experiences have low neuroticism (especially if the existence of E4 is any indication), it simply suggests that some people experience so much emotional dryness (and simultaneously interpret said dryness as insipidity) that they engage in emotionally stimulating activities.
*I specified “negative” emotional reserves because Neuroticism only pertains to negative emotions, while Extroversion pertains to positive emotions.
Btw, anger is not inherently “bad.” It contributes to human survival in several ways, such as protecting everything from healthy boundaries to our offspring. It is a response to having our space or territory violated. I think this is most likely where the common misconception that "Se = aggression" stems from. Se is associated with the space/territory, anger is sometimes generated by the violation of said space/territory; however, anger does not equate to aggression, and both of those are also disparate from space/territory dynamics themselves. If anything, the proficient use of Se relates more to understanding when/how much force/pressure/etc. is appropriate to use. That means those who are less proficient would be more likely to misjudge what a situation calls for and overreact, thus becoming aggressive. However, once again, anger =/= aggression, and overreacting with aggression doesn't indicate there is a strong presence of the anger facet of neuroticism. Rather than the aforementioned aggression stemming from an excess of anger (thus loss of self-control), it would present itself due to an error in judgment in these types.
☆EDIT:
Another comment about
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 11-16-2021 at 03:57 AM.
This is especially true in cases that involve disorders such as Borderline Personality Disorder and Narcissism.
When IEE jump to conclusions based off their assumptions it can be pretty bad. And then when they try and defend their territory they go about it all the wrong way.
ESE and EIE could be considered types with the worst temper. Their inferior Ti can be very cold. It's like they have an inner brutal coldness that suddenly shows itself.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Supervision truly sucks.
I’ve seen the sudden coldness you refer to emerge, but it doesn’t last, and neither type seems prone to becoming particularly violent or irrational (more so than other types, I mean) when angry or cold. Why do you consider this “coldness” so bad?
well, it depends what we mean by worst temper. They can have very fast mood swings between the warm, social Fe and the brutal, cold "logic". So the contrast is remarkable and surprising.
The coldness seems worse to me than the coldness of T types. It seems chaotic and exaggerated. I've seen it last for quite a while.
I just wanted to bring this up as a suggestion for the type with the worst temper.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
maybe u havent seen it go far enough. ExE drain the soul of u somehow by merely being in that state. maybe LxI would be more adept at handling this? xEI gets more intimaded by it instead? i feel more comfortable with the EIE variety than ESE.
IxI for example can become uncontrollably violent.
1D Se, but he didnt end up killing him.he incident happened in February 2002 during a late-night party at Gaahl's house in Espedal, when he became involved in a confrontation with a man who arrived at his house. Gaahl was accused of severely beating the man, torturing him for long periods of time and collecting his blood into a cup and threatening to make him drink it.[4] Gaahl said "I was the one who was attacked, but they think I punished him too hard. As I always say, when people cross my line and I let them know where the line is many steps before they cross it, and still they choose to cross it, then I will be the one to decide what their punishment will be".[9] He also claimed to have given the man the cup "so that he would not make such a mess in my house with all the blood"
when it happenned to me when that SEE pushed me (it was him + all the other pressures, if it wasnt the other bullshit what he did would have had a far different outcome) im so glad i was so pathetically weak it hurt me more to hit him than him being hit.
its so frustrating people taking intuitives especially as doormats bc of being more contained.
in some periods i could relate to gaahl's mentality that let him to that. having a tough time doesnt mean u get to hurt someone else who's abusive for ur benefit, if u dont care about how u treat someone why should they care how u get treated?
one LII shaved his GF hair for cheating on him and they broke up. Einstein was controlling and abusive towards his wife.
EII can go insane if they get betrayed and walked over too much too.
it also pisses me off that sensors think they are more "controlled". they arent. they simply made a lot of mistakes early on and still continue to so over time get better at gaging the risks. but its like all the harm they did before that doesnt exist.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
I’m curious why it seems worse to you. Does it scare you?
I’m more familiar with ESEs than EIEs, but IME neither type really goes off the rails so much when they’re like this. You can sit them down and have a conversation with them, and no matter what they’re angry about, they’ll be willing to come to an understanding. ESEs more immediately, I think; EIEs I’d guess might want to air out their grievances more first, but they seem ultimately similar in that you can appeal to them for a truce and they’ll engage with you seriously.
From my perspective the anger of irrational types is worse, because it feels that they usually don’t really want to come to an understanding or to make relations better, and there’s nothing you can do about this. They just act out their impulses and you do the best you can to weather the storm, and then you never know what they think of you when it’s over.
I can't remember why I said what I did, but for example, there is this table based on pretty small sample:The part you said about it being related to neuroticism is, of course, correct. However, I'm not sure where you collected your data from, but my resources (which I always ensure are dependable) state otherwise. Neuroticism is the one facet of the Big 5 that lacks any significant correlation with personality types.
Openness = Sensing/iNtuition
Conscientiousness = Perceiving/Judging
Extroversion = Introversion/Extroversion
Agreeableness = Feeling/Thinking
Neuroticism = None
Those are the correlations with MBTI. I haven't bothered to look into things with Socionics, but I know Se will correlate with both Extroversion (assertiveness facet) and Sensing, so it's most likely a bit more partitioned. It's clear based on IE definitions alone, though, that there should not be any overlap with Neuroticism except POTENTIALLY in the Ethics Information Metabolism Elements, particularly
*I specified “negative” emotional reserves because Neuroticism only pertains to negative emotions, while Extroversion pertains to positive emotions.
Btw, anger is not inherently “bad.” It contributes to human survival in several ways, such as protecting everything from healthy boundaries to our offspring. It is a response to having our space or territory violated. I think this is most likely where the common misconception that "Se = aggression" stems from. Se is associated with the space/territory, anger is sometimes generated by the violation of said space/territory; however, anger does not equate to aggression, and both of those are also disparate from space/territory dynamics themselves. If anything, the proficient use of Se relates more to understanding when/how much force/pressure/etc. is appropriate to use. That means those who are less proficient would be more likely to misjudge what a situation calls for and overreact, thus becoming aggressive. However, once again, anger =/= aggression, and overreacting with aggression doesn't indicate there is a strong presence of the anger facet of neuroticism. Rather than the aforementioned aggression stemming from an excess of anger (thus loss of self-control), it would present itself due to an error in judgment in these types.
☆EDIT:
Another comment about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers%...cator#Big_Five
That would suggest that is a slight but perhaps not statistically significant correlation between neuroticism and: "introversion", "perception", "feeling", and "sensing".
This post has a paper: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1131926
which had a significant correlation between neuroticism and the MBTI traits of "introversion" and "feeling" in a summary of several previous papers, and a significant correlation with "sensing" in one paper. There was also a significant correlation for neuroticism and perceiving in males in one paper, but only to a 95% confidence level.
............
I agree with the general gist of your point that it would be good to define exactly what we meany by "temper" when trying to answer such a question.
I've understood it's the Ti. It's primitive, unadapted, like a split personality. You can't reason with it. Logical types have adapted functioning logics, it's integrated in the personality. The logics of ExE is more like a dark demon. But it varies, some have it more, others are balanced.
Maybe you can deal with it better, since you have base Ti and can take the lead?
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Maybe I haven’t, and maybe they are. I don’t know. My mother and grandmother, and a cousin of mine are ESE. When they get angry it’s usually easy for me to talk with them (I don’t think my cousin’s ever been angry at me, but I’ve talked to her when she was mad at someone else, at least). There’s definitely something to duality, so that could be why I don’t mind it, but even so I’m surprised you and Tallmo consider ExEs’ anger so terrible.
What feels draining about that state, exactly?
I’m curious; what about it intimidates you? I’m especially curious since you say ESEs are more intimidating than EIEs.xEI gets more intimaded by it instead? i feel more comfortable with the EIE variety than ESE.
IxI for example can become uncontrollably violent.
Yeah, LII can get a bit psychotic when under emotional pressure. I’m not sure exactly why. It could have to do with weak ethics that snap as soon as a desire for Fe validation is lost. Personally I think it has to do with Ni, though I’d have to be think a little more before being able to explain my thoughts there. I notice LIIs if they’re in that kind of state seem to think and act more like typical ILIs.one LII shaved his GF hair for cheating on him and they broke up.
Yeah, I’ve also seen EIIs act like that. But, anyway, what’s your point? If intuitives are capable of the same or greater violence, aren’t they as bad as sensors?EIIs can go insane if they get betrayed and walked over too much too.
it also pisses me off that sensors think they are more "controlled". they arent. they simply made a lot of mistakes early on and still continue to so over time get better at gaging the risks. but its like all the harm they did before that doesnt exist.
Really? Have you tried? What happened? As I’ve said, I’ve always had the opposite experience, so I’m surprised.
Maybe.Maybe you can deal with it better, since you have base Ti and can take the lead?
I’ve noticed something in my mother and her mother, who are both ESEs. I’ve never been sure if it’s related to type or if it’s an inherited trait of some kind, since I’ve seen traces of this attitude in non-ESE family members. They seem at times to periodically disassociate from reality and express thoughts to the effect that nothing in life matters, their entire lives have been frauds, and that everyone in life is out to take advantage of them. At other times it seems like they’re struggling to suppress these kinds of thoughts. These thoughts seem to come out particularly often when they’re angry and become cold as you described. Have you seen something similar in other ESEs?
If it’s related to type, I’d assume it’s vulnerable Ni — an uncertainty regarding the greater patterns of their lives. I’ve heard thoughts that duals are attracted to each other’s unconscious use of their demonstrative. I’m not sure what to make of that idea, but maybe that could be part of the reason I generally do well with angry ESEs.
sensors in general seem to have more of a "wall" than intuitives. maybe EIE i feel like i can influence more. intuition makes them more receptive? ESE on the other hand is Ni PoLR, their mentality is more like "the past is the past" "if u dont care, it doesnt matter" that allow them to hurt others. EIE seems to have more future consideration.
maybe draining bc they dont value Fi? i cant tell them what they're doing is not beneficial or fair? i cant cosntruct and relay good enough Ti arguement to stop them?
it was that ESE who brought airsoft gun with pellets and pointed it at others for fun teasing the trigger. he said its not loaded, i suspected it was. i snatched it to shoot out the pellet? i didnt point it at him, at his face especially, but that stupid garbage somehow sent the bullet to the side of his mouth. it wasnt ricochet.
on the news there was another kid in the army playing with a gun, shot guy accidentally. the guy had major issues and expensive surgeries, didnt get fixed properly, they failed to raise enough money for further surgeries and he died within a year. the kid who shot the gun had a rich dad and got no trouble.
i still feel off that the pellet hit ESE, but i wonder now if it was supposed to happen? it was a dilemma for me as many others. to succumb to peer pressure or do something which i think may be right, that im not sure of. people (ESPECIALLY SENSORS) tend to act like they are under control when they arent. intuitives also seem to handle their anxiety more by withdrawing and projecting possibilities. its like sensors struggle to think through them enough, so they just push forward. they see it as a waste of time.
quoting LSI: it seems thinking got me nowhere. it hasnt solved any issues. now i just dont think.
one ESE was talking to me about how the world is balanced in terms of good and evil, relating that to atoms. He really likes "bling" shit rich luxury scams u get it (i hope). so this is like his way of making himself comfortable about doing anything. if he gets rich he can benefit others. others dont care about benefitting him either so it doesnt matter if he takes advantage of ppl who would take advantage of him. if its not him it would be someone else. and the more evil he does, the more the world will be compensated for it.
in general it seems to be a pattern of ESxx types to think like this.
SLE "this is a tough world and u have to do what it takes, earn ur place in it"
SEE "i have my place here as much as anyone else so i can assert myself over others, its dog eat dog"
LSE "everybody suffers and has problems what im doing is not ok but i have to look after myself bc the world is not looking out for me"
they are not capable of the "same" violence. i already said sensors indulge in it more. across different situations, intuitives would have been less violent > they do not commit the same violence.
nasty
intuitive parents also tend to be more lenient or constructive with their parenting, instead of putting their kids through mind numbing chores and beating them, more inclined to force them to read or study instead. sensors are more heavy handed with their children.
i only gave some examples of intuitives indulging in violence, but u have to take everything into account. even without statistics, based off of what makes a sensor a sensor would implicate higher inclination to violence.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
Yes. I've noticed it. But I'm pretty sure it's the primitive Ti making bad generalizations. Jung described this kind of Ti as a "nothing but" attitude. So it's basically what you said..
Ni polr has imo more to do with handling change and dynamics of situations.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
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