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Thread: ENFp journalists have too much influence? Lack of Ti in journalism

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Default ENFp journalists have too much influence? Lack of Ti in journalism

    It is obvious that there are lots of IEE in journalism. You hear them on the radio, read their articles in the newspaper etc.

    I think IEE are good reporters. The problem is that they don't only do that. They also write columns where they "analyse" current affairs, or express their opinion.

    If you are a journalist you get lots of opportunities to express your view, not only reporting.

    They lock themselves into a certain ideology, and then everything is analyzed according to that.

    I am just getting really tired of this. I turn on the radio and hear yet another IEE telling their personal opinion under then veil of "reporting"

    This wouldn't be so much of a problem if journalism wasn't packed with IEE. But too much is too much.

    I do think that the lack of in journalism is a problem.

    Thoughts?
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Sometimes it is good to have counter opinions. Not always but you see the game. Sometimes in the era of internet journalism it becomes a fight and a clickbait contest. That is kind of sad and funny.

    probably not IEE journalists but:
    I really hate baseless extrapolation by some journalists. You have to be clear where your own views enter into stage just because I can make n+5 new options on top of your claims. Judgement is done when no evidence exists and probabilities are not in your side either when you assume everyone having the same drive. Yes, it is easy to say that you were right because sometimes it has to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It is obvious that there are lots of IEE in journalism. You hear them on the radio, read their articles in the newspaper etc.

    I think IEE are good reporters. The problem is that they don't only do that. They also write columns where they "analyse" current affairs, or express their opinion.

    If you are a journalist you get lots of opportunities to express your view, not only reporting.

    They lock themselves into a certain ideology, and then everything is analyzed according to that.

    I am just getting really tired of this. I turn on the radio and hear yet another IEE telling their personal opinion under then veil of "reporting"

    This wouldn't be so much of a problem if journalism wasn't packed with IEE. But too much is too much.

    I do think that the lack of in journalism is a problem.

    Thoughts?
    I get annoyed by IEEs comparing everything to their ideals too, but if what is missing is objectivism, then can't provide that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I get annoyed by IEEs comparing everything to their ideals too, but if what is missing is objectivism, then can't provide that
    Many news stories have descended into an incoherent cacophony of the presenter's personal feelings and opinions. This undermines the public's faith in the media. I find the Socionics angle interesting, because I agree that journalists are more likely than average to be EII or IEE. has far too great an influence on our culture at the moment - you see this in the rise of identity politics and an emphasis on equality, tolerance and social justice as ends in and of themselves, even if they destroy group cohesion and economic vitality.

    But let's get back to news stories specifically and how things could change for the better. provides a way to break apart a subject, let's say a news story in this case, and can distill (especially in tandem with which also seems to be lacking) the core themes then arrange them in a logical sequence. This not only creates a story with language that flows well and is pleasing to read - it also prevents a tendency to take on the impersonal (ideologies, value systems, politics) as a part of your own personal identity. This is a trait I associate primarily with and it is also a hallmark of ideological zealotry.

    N.B. I must say that I find it very difficult to discuss politics with a Delta Quadra type amicably, especially EIIs. If I disagree with their political views, they give me the impression that I'm a bad person. Whereas to me, your ideas are not important - it's what you do (and don't do) with them that I'll judge you on.

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    If someone could suppport the claim with actual IEE examples (reporters, bloggers, whatever)- that would be nice. Otherwise we're descussing hot air. At least to me, it's not obvious. I'm sure once we have our IEE examples listed here, we'll have our usual debate about their "true" type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It might not be obvious to you now, but I still think it should be considered common knowledge that IEEs are overreperesented in journalism and that their influence is big.So I don't think it needs to be proven. But of course one can always start looking for examples. But Im mostly following media in my own country so I can't give any good examples in English.
    I think it's common knowledge that there is a cosmic teapot flying around in space. So I don't think it needs to be proven.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

    Imo things that can't be proven should not be considered common knowledge but bs. (Unless we're talking about physics... I have no idea about that)
    Funnily socionics is not the right topic for that so everyone is free to make stuff up.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    I think it's common knowledge that there is a cosmic teapot flying around in space. So I don't think it needs to be proven.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

    Imo things that can't be proven should not be considered common knowledge but bs. (There are exceptions like...gravity)
    Funnily socionics is not the right topic for that so everyone is free to make stuff up.
    But sometimes things are considered common knowledge in a discussion. Not everything has to be proven. But anyway, maybe someone can give you examples, but Im not gonna do it.

    (Sorry I deleted my post, because I thought maybe I shouldn't answer at all since I don't have examples to give you)
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Yes. Delta NF seems to have an outsized influence over the media as well as most major organizations as of late. At least here in America. If anything though, delta seems to have an even larger hold over Western Europe and Canada.

    Not that any other quadra would be better if they had a similar hold over society. They all bring their own unique set of problems. But much of the angst today in the west seems to revolve around largely non-delta populations revolting against Delta leadership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    If someone could suppport the claim with actual IEE examples (reporters, bloggers, whatever)- that would be nice.
    We're talking about a general trend where Delta Quadra values have an outsize influence on popular culture. Focusing on specific examples would be unhelpful, because it distracts from the big picture here. I would just listen to what politicians, academics, journalists and actors (people in the so-called "trifecta" of media, academia and government that controls culture) tend to say and promote, and see if you can notice any common themes running through. Which virtues/morals are emphasized and which is not? What can't you say and who can't you criticize, if you want to keep your job? The trifecta's response to the recent "Google memo" is a good example of Delta values out of control - it's all about equality/justice, censoring the "wrong" opinions and saying things the "right way". Priorities like these always come at the expense of one's self-expression and creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    Otherwise we're descussing hot air. At least to me, it's not obvious. I'm sure once we have our IEE examples listed here, we'll have our usual debate about their "true" type.
    Well if you insist on having all the facts before commenting, we may as well shut down this entire forum.

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    Any Ti polr with any kind of influence has too much influence. Look at Trump. Ti is like....thought itself.
    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    I seriously doubt that the majority of journalists are IEE. Are they over-represented in journalism compared to other types? Sure, the IEE is called the journalist or reporter for a reason as it is well suited for that career, but I'm sure you'll find a reservoir of other types in journalism. So, I don't think the solution is as simple as: "There's too many IEEs in journalism, there should be other types hired for more analysis." Other types involved in journalism as well are perfectly capable of giving their own opinion as well and they're giving their misinformed opinions as well like any type would do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    We're talking about a general trend where Delta Quadra values have an outsize influence on popular culture. Focusing on specific examples would be unhelpful, because it distracts from the big picture here. I would just listen to what politicians, academics, journalists and actors (people in the so-called "trifecta" of media, academia and government that controls culture) tend to say and promote, and see if you can notice any common themes running through. Which virtues/morals are emphasized and which is not? What can't you say and who can't you criticize, if you want to keep your job? The trifecta's response to the recent "Google memo" is a good example of Delta values out of control - it's all about equality/justice, censoring the "wrong" opinions and saying things the "right way". Priorities like these always come at the expense of one's self-expression and creativity.

    Well if you insist on having all the facts before commenting, we may as well shut down this entire forum.

    I think that censoring opinions is against Delta values, but, its pretty much Fi indeed. Delta value all people having right to hold on their own opinions, but censorship should be out of the base. I personally feel really bad when I notice that certain topics are becoming sensitive topics on society as if they can't be discussed anymore at the risk of being called or labeled as retrograde or phobic. So, funnily, what we are living is a progressive imposition of values, disguised as free speech and freedom, so even when there are raised flags of liberty, we are living probably in the most emotionally manipulatory time, that often hides the cruelty and neglect justifying it as rights, so no surprise in finding a completely lack of substance in media.

    Fi out of control in society with lack of Ti/Te is simply too dangerous, specially for the new generations. I think that a bunch of social movements right now are taking the wrong direction because of this. We live in a society where feelings are being overrated (in detriment of common sense and arguments with base) and used as a weapon and justification for literally everything.
    Last edited by Hope; 08-18-2017 at 02:01 AM.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    I seriously doubt that the majority of journalists are IEE. Are they over-represented in journalism compared to other types? Sure, the IEE is called the journalist or reporter for a reason as it is well suited for that career, but I'm sure you'll find a reservoir of other types in journalism. So, I don't think the solution is as simple as: "There's too many IEEs in journalism, there should be other types hired for more analysis." Other types involved in journalism as well are perfectly capable of giving their own opinion as well and they're giving their misinformed opinions as well like any type would do.
    It's difficult to say weather the majority is IEE (over 50%). But they are certainly over-represented in journalism, that's just my experience with journalists. Maybe they are 40%, who knows? Or even more than that.

    Yes, any type can be subjective, but when a certain type is accumulated in a field they get too much power. Too much one-sidedness. Society is being brain washed by IEE. Ordinary people don't know this. They have never heard of Socionics, they can't see the pattern.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    I read everything with filter on. I know what to expect.

    Anyways is there any sort of data regarding influence and style of reporting? Sometimes I see things I'd like to question myself and put it on a test. However that goes far beyond journalism (even scientific). How to report with right sort of balance?

    Important thing behind news is trends. I don't see the need to delve into details unless you truly want to investigate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I get annoyed by IEEs comparing everything to their ideals too, but if what is missing is objectivism, then can't provide that
    Well we need an example. Not only if this is an IEE, but also, is it an ideal or an objective truth? Not everything is relative. There are universal truths.

    Guilty as charged as to comparing everything to my ideals. But I do that internally. The "i" in Fi is for "introverted". Its the iNtuition I extrovert, not the Fi. So I have to wonder if these reporters you refer to are actually IEEs.

    Also an IEE is pretty broad-minded about seeing things from everyone's point of view. Its one of the reasons why IEE relates well to other Quadra. I have well-formed opinions, but I don 't express them readily, because I feel people have a right to express their own opposing views. So when others express opinions I am opposed to I am unlikely to interject unless its an outrageous or offensive opposition. Then I may speak up no matter how uncomfortable. That's unless the opinion-bearer is just a blowhard. I am thinking of a very recent example, actually. Not sure if I should go off on an IEE "personal story" though...

    Furthermore, in what I think is in line with Fi, I value my own opinions and I don't want to put them out there for someone who isn't or listening or doesn't want to listen or cannot listen. And I have a need to be true to myself, so I am not going to go into a field ofwork where the only way to survive professionally is to sell people opinions that are opposed to my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by nokomis View Post
    Yes. Delta NF seems to have an outsized influence over the media as well as most major organizations as of late. At least here in America. If anything though, delta seems to have an even larger hold over Western Europe and Canada... ... But much of the angst today in the west seems to revolve around largely non-delta populations revolting against Delta leadership.
    The media and journalists seem to have a litmus tests to get work and stay in the spotlight, a litmus test of adherence to subscribed beliefs. At least in this country, one is not welcome in the field of journalism if one puts heavy use of Fi into forming personal opinions and values, as an IEE does. A journalist who is to be respected in the field - and published - is expected to be a proponent of the commonly held (politically correct) views and morals. That's a stretch for an IEE, who invests in his/her own views. So, NeFi seems a handicap to the profession.

    Maybe Fe-valuing would be more helpful for a published journalist in these times? Fe-valuing and xxxj, actually.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


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    uhhhhhhhhh
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It's difficult to say weather the majority is IEE (over 50%). But they are certainly over-represented in journalism, that's just my experience with journalists. Maybe they are 40%, who knows? Or even more than that.

    Yes, any type can be subjective, but when a certain type is accumulated in a field they get too much power. Too much one-sidedness. Society is being brain washed by IEE. Ordinary people don't know this. They have never heard of Socionics, they can't see the pattern.
    I think the problem is deeper than too many IEEs in the field of journalism. I am not sure how it is in Finland and I'm not sure if you're talking about American journalism or Finnish journalism either. However, 90% of media is owned by 6 corporations in America. These corporations heavily influence what is outputted in the American media and the vast majority of journalists are merely the mouthpieces for corporations whether they are IEE or not.

    Any deviation of the approved mindset will ensure that journalists with unapproved opinions will never get heard. Essentially, critical analysis of topics is discouraged in journalism due to the aforementioned factors. You could say that and is discouraged in journalism, but it's not because there are too many IEE journalists, but rather because those that own the media benefit from that. This video helps elaborate on what I am talking about and I am sure Finnish journalism is impacted by this as well:

    Last edited by Raver; 08-19-2017 at 06:10 PM.
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    @Economist - this is why I left ^

    Without the dramatics of the video in that post, yes, that's basically how it works. It's even less "nefarious" in its actual situation, in the everyday sense. But at the apexes of the system, that's how crushing it can be. It, in turn, affects many related professions and their lenses, outlooks, and perspectives.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Ultimate revenge:

    Use the IEE as slave labour to build a wall on the Mexican border.

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    The IEE part is a red herring. Tons of news comes out as bias opinion pieces. But that's society's fault for looking for those pieces often enough that it has so much influence. People love topics that confirm their own views, and people love to use their views as a means of purpose and fulfillment.

    Tldr - it's our fault; we're lazy and look for shortcuts.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    There is definitely a pervasive problem of inferring too many intentions in media and politics without any proof, and then getting media consumers to latch on to these perceived ulterior motives, rather than the actual policies figures promise to institute.


    I also find a lack of information-density to be a problem in a lot of media, but I suppose that's more forgivable and inherent to the business of communication than the former issue. There's a lot of articles out there that present no greater amount of information than you could get by passively wandering through Wikipedia, but that's at least better than the tripe written about muh social issues and mainstream politics. Lack of information-density is an argument against HP-cog Ne- tho.


    If IEE is really overrepresented in media then deliberate, radical promotion of intellectual laziness and malicious lack of circumspection are probably traits linked to this type somehow. You get where we are now because reporters dgaf about the consequences, not because they're stupid or ignorant.

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