SLE = MBTI ENTJ and MBTI ESTP is socionics LIE

[Number 9 large]

Anybody seen this aswel?

[Adam Strange]

When I took the Keirsey personality test twenty years ago, I repeatedly got ENTJ. I had no idea what an ENTJ was before then, and the Keirsey description was flattering in some ways but seemed a bit off.

Now when I take Socionics tests, I get LIE-Te, and truthfully, the description of LIE-ENTj by Stratiyevskaya is right on. Uncomfortably so.

The MBTI descriptions of ENTJ's sound like parody.

I now have a pretty clear picture in my mind of SLE's, and I am not an SLE. This fact was made abundantly clear when I was chasing an IEI.

[Number 9 large]

When I took the Keirsey personality test twenty years ago, I repeatedly got ENTJ. I had no idea what an ENTJ was before then, and the Keirsey description was flattering in some ways but seemed a bit off.

Now when I take Socionics tests, I get LIE-Te, and truthfully, the description of LIE-ENTj by Stratiyevskaya is right on. Uncomfortably so.

The MBTI descriptions of ENTJ's sound like parody.

I now have a pretty clear picture in my mind of SLE's, and I am not an SLE. This fact was made abundantly clear when I was chasing an IEI.

I gotta read her then cuz gulenkos descriptions of LIEs sound so 7w8

[Adam Strange]

I gotta read her then cuz gulenkos descriptions of LIEs sound so 7w8

Well, I'm not exactly a normal LIE. https://i.imgur.com/19ooT2J.jpg

[Beautiful sky]

It’s not true at all

[consentingadult]

It is not uncommon for LIEs to test as ESTP in MBTI. It is because some of the more immature LIEs imagine themselves as ESTP, it's their Se-mobilizing at work. Together with a total lack of Fe and Fi skills, such immature LIEs act as complete assholes, but in their delusion they themselves think that such behavior is pretty cool and manly. SLEs/ESTPs embody many qualities LIEs admire.

I once met an SLE woman who, on her blog, wrote that she was ENTJ. But I don't know if that point towards a pattern of some SLEs testing as ENTJs.

[Adam Strange]

I gotta read her then cuz gulenkos descriptions of LIEs sound so 7w8

@Number 9 large, I just read Gulenko’s description of LIE’s, and I would say that his description is also very accurate, and he does make LIE’s seem more like 7w8’s.

However, to me, Gulenko’s description seems kind of bloodless. It is accurate without being illuminating, and here is what I think is going on.

Gulenko is LII, which is Extinguishment to LIE and is on the opposite side of the Socion with respect to shared values. He is describing LIE’s in terms of his own values, not the LIE’s values. His description is technically accurate, but is coming from a very distant place.

My favorite sister is LII and I work closely with several LII’s every day by choice. I like these guys. They are smart and rational and work hard at certain things and they don’t get wrapped up in ego-driven emotional BS. I can count on them for cool, rationally insightful interactions. But they are space aliens. I absolutely don’t get their motivations; I just know that they are predictable. This is probably exactly the way that they see me.

Stratiyevskaya’s description of LIE’s may be overly emotional and strongly biased by her personal experiences, but she “gets” LIE’s. She gets them on a very deep level, which is probably why her description of my type seemed like it was written in flaming letters in the air when I read it, rather than being Gulenko’s dry Wikipedia description of LIE’s.

I believe that this is a problem that all type descriptions inherently have. If they are written by someone whose values are only partially shared with the subject, then the description will reflect that fact.

[Adam Strange]

It is not uncommon for LIEs to test as ESTP in MBTI. It is because some of the more immature LIEs imagine themselves as ESTP, it's their Se-mobilizing at work. Together with a total lack of Fe and Fi skills, such immature LIEs act as complete assholes, but in their delusion they themselves think that such behavior is pretty cool and manly. SLEs/ESTPs embody many qualities LIEs admire.

I once met an SLE woman who, on her blog, wrote that she was ENTJ. But I don't know if that point towards a pattern of some SLEs testing as ENTJs.

@consentingadult, this is very true. I do admire many of the characteristics of SLE’s. I envy them their Se powers of observation and will, and even though I test as having more Se than most LIE’s, I wish I had even more because, as Gulenko said, I can’t exert my will in the face of strong emotional opposition.

(This is probably the home court advantage that ESI’s have over LIE’s, should they need to use it. I’ve experienced this Se willpower from ESI’s before, and I seem to be powerless to oppose it. I can see now that my best defense might be Ni, but previously, I didn’t know that.)

However, if I were somehow granted my wish for more Se, I’d also wish for more Ni to moderate it, because unbridled Se is actually what makes some SLE’s so often seem so difficult to take.

[FDG]

Mhm I think the first one is correct but most LIE would test as N types in MBTI

[Number 9 large]

@consentingadult, this is very true. I do admire many of the characteristics of SLE’s. I envy them their Se powers of observation and will, and even though I test as having more Se than most LIE’s, I wish I had even more because, as Gulenko said, I can’t exert my will in the face of strong emotional opposition.

(This is probably the home court advantage that ESI’s have over LIE’s, should they need to use it. I’ve experienced this Se willpower from ESI’s before, and I seem to be powerless to oppose it. I can see now that my best defense might be Ni, but previously, I didn’t know that.)

However, if I were somehow granted my wish for more Se, I’d also wish for more Ni to moderate it, because unbridled Se is actually what makes some SLE’s so often seem so difficult to take.

But ur an 8w7 who cant exert ur will in the face of opposition? Isnt that a contradiction?

Also since when did Se become "force"?
If we go back to Jung he clearly uses the MBTI version of Se (always craving new experiences, lives life to the fullest, very observant of here and now etc.)

And the thing is it fits 7w8 better than 8w7. (EP temperament is obviously more 7 related than 8 related, which is more EJ)

And a lot of things in Gulenkos descriptions of LIEs seem off, and against Gamma values, such as:

"Makes sly, double entendre, sexual jokes" (fits 7w8 more imo)
"Will readily spend money, not inclined to save it"
"Takes up sports like hiking, running, etc"
"Is very nimble and agile physically"
"Has a charming "one of the guys" half smile"
"Optimistic, good sense of humor" - fits 7 more than 8
"Is very perceptive of positive possibilities of new projects and undertakings." - pretty much 7 in a nutshell
"does not accumulate money or assets, instead seeks to put them immediately into action. "
"Very dynamic, agile, energetic and active person" - agile and dynamic fit 7 more than 8, who tend to plow through their problems rather than nimbly avoid them etc
"Due to his restlessness and curiosity he often experiments" restlessness + curiosity - 7, 8s have a more cynical outlook

"The surest sign of LIE's manner of communication that makes it easy to notice this sociotype - is the manifestation of sly humor, love of making jokes, often with sexual undertones (usually for LIE males)" - how is this gamma, sound more merry Fe valuing quadra, also 7 > 8 ( yes 8s can make jokes but is this the surest sign to recognize one? No.)

__________________________________________________ _______

Then Gulenkos SLE description:

"The SLE (ESTp) is a decisive and goal-oriented person. Prefers to set only major goals and will move towards them no matter the obstacles. His persistence increases proportionally to the number of obstacles that must be overcome" - one thing 7s struggle with IS persistence, once someyhing becomes too heavy or negative, they usually start looking for something fun instead - contradiction to EP temperament which correlates to 7, but not to this description

Attempts to give instruction and orders - 8>7
Logically calculates a plan of action in advance, as if playing a game of chess; a flexible tactician - yes they put this at ESTP not ENTJ lol. Since when does ESTP logically calculate things in advance, while ENTJ "bodly experiments with endless enthusiasm"?

"Distrustful, tests people in action. Feels unsure about how others relate to him. Prone to first notice the weaknesses and shortcomings. Finds it difficult to restrain negative emotions in his relationships. Can be intolerant in communication with his loved ones."

What 7 is that negative in his outlook at people? Again more 8 (also intolerant 8>7)


SLE is a resolute person who can provide volitional pressure if the situation requires this. He is determined to win at any cost. (8888888888)

"Often he is too intolerant and uncompromising, predisposed to dictate his own way in his relations."
Nope 8>7, 7s are openminded and not so inclined to dictate

Periodically turns to thoughtful introspection. Withdraws into himself, reflecting on future prospects and emerging opportunities. (Could be both but generally what comes out of he article is that he seems future oriented, which sounds more Ni than Se ego)

"A correct and somewhat restrained manner of interaction is characteristic of the SLE." - yo what, sounds rather gamma > beta to me, so the LIE makes sexual jokes and SLE behaves correct and restrained? Sounds like it needs to be reversed if we look at quadra values. Idk how Gulenko doesnt see this gross contradiction between these types and their temperaments + quadra values respectively

[FDG]

Well it seems gulenko focuses a lot on Lie s Fe

It's true, in socionics Lie is more of an optimistic hard working scientist rather than a big boss businessman which is more typical of MBTI descriptions

BTW you're interpreting the merry serious dichotomy in a wrong way

[Moou]

nah

[Alonzo]

I think the only possible way an ENTJ tests as SLE in Socionics is if he/she is caught in some type of Te-Se loop, but theoretically, this reflects a state of poor health. According to DaveSuperPowers and his Objective Personality method, half of all the types skip their auxiliary function and go straight to the tertiary, which in the case of ENTJs, would make them more energetically extroverted, impulsive, and inclined towards risk-taking.

My Se has always been potent, but rather unwieldy in that the "volitional will" and "power" is usually disproportionate to the situation, but less so as I age; I think part of it comes from being somewhat "dualized" by a shit ton of lead/creative Se types growing up--I'm a general fitness nut, was varsity throughout school, did extreme sports, martial arts, all that stuff, AND YET...dominant Se users are still the first to spot (and ridicule, of course) any muscle imbalance, abnormal gait, limp or physical "deficiency" I might possess at any given time. I can't hide from them. Bastards. lol I envy how refined their Se can be...or not. I always aspire to more finesse in that way.

[The Reality Denialist]

Mobilizing as it states is mobilizing but not having it makes you slow down... so LIE's need occasional Se beatings to feel alive.