Did you really just use that logic as a basis for your impression?Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Did you really just use that logic as a basis for your impression?
Yes. I'm a guy who does Ready-Fire-Aim all the time, so I tend to make stupid mistakes based on too-little data. Sometimes, this enables LIEs to win, but often we just look like we have no idea what we are doing. (Until you look at the record.)
The scene I was referring to was a scene from Vikings that someone on this forum posted here, in which some woman, I assume she's Ragnar's wife, leaves the village (maybe with her son?) in a cart pulled by a horse, and this Viking guy goes after her and starts crying in front of her, saying he loves her, and she tells him that she's tired of his disrespect so she's done with him.
Since I don't watch TV and I certainly don't know who these characters are, I just assumed that this scene was from some great story arc of love between the main characters and that those were the characters to whom you referred. Maybe I was completely wrong there, but if that guy was Ragnar, then I could see an SLE acting that way, possibly, if he realized that he was in danger of losing someone very near to him.
Having 1D Fi means that our feelings are very low-res. Black, or white, not many shades of gray.
If I'm wrong about my assumptions, please ignore.
Ugh, groan. I'm sorry -- how frustrating, and I'm frustrated with my identical for that weird message...
I *completely* agree, lol.
not a conversation, just sharing something: LIE dad and LIE brother are doing a 2-day avalanche preparedness training course in the mountainous west which is so very, very them of an activity. i find the knowledge-gathering adorable, honestly, and am glad to not participate at that high of a level of physical risk-taking (the opportunities that the course could open up for them in terrain, that is), too. they both snowboard recreationally.
Sorry, I was in a shitty mood that day and was too impatient. It's been lingering on my conscience ever since, and I feel bad. My emotional state blinded my judgment a bit, I didn't realize I was being moody til hindsight.
Yes, and couple that with Ne-polr and Se-creative, so they begin prodding you like some sort of laboratory animal until you bark. Immediately they interpret this as the ultimate proof that you must be a monster and thus see their worldview confirmed. They then do their infamous vanishing act, never to be seen again.
Not so fun fact, only a couple of years ago dogs who were suspected to be aggressive were put in cages and prodded with sticks until they would bite. If they did so, they would be killed immediately, because they were deemed a danger to society.
Why do you think she thinks you're a monster/menace?
I don't think she thinks I'm a monster/menace. I think she's AFRAID I MIGHT BE a monster/menace.
What I've seen of ESIs is that they have a really hard time predicting the future (Low Ni), or extrapolating present events into any of the possible futures (Ne-PoLR). This means that they seem to rely almost entirely on past performance because, to them, the future is entirely unknowable.
If you can't pick up three hints from a chaotic environment and use them to predict where everyone will be in a year, you have to make your judgements on the basis of past histories. ESIs remember everything because, if they forget something, THAT ONE THING could be their undoing.
So, she doesn't know me and she can't predict very well what I'll do. She's therefore waiting, waiting, waiting and gathering more and more information to see if I kick dogs or am mean to little children. Until then (and that time when she feels safe is probably Never), she's looking for evidence of me being a monster in hiding.
Mm. Ehh, I personally don't relate to this much. I recall everything simply because...well, I have a good memory. I also especially recall things that emotionally impact me, because...well, it was impactful, therefore it stuck with me vividly. If something felt threatening, upsetting, etc. it's very personal to me, and I recall the way I felt. It's like...if a bee stings you, lol...you're going to remember "be careful with bees." I think it's merely part of natural survival mechanisms.
I'm constantly extrapolating, this was always one of my natural strengths. I've always called it math with human behaviors simply because it really is like seeing a formula: A + B = you're going to come out with C. I'm not always right, but more often than not, I am. I talk about that a little HERE. While terrible with numbers and traditional math, I've found that once numbers are changed out with humans, behaviors, the psyche/general inner workings of mankind, and even animals, I'm suddenly excellent with mathematics style "logic." Identifying the next [behavior instead of number] in a pattern sequence, finding the missing [motive/behavior instead of number value] in an equation such as 76 + a + 16 = 154, except, instead of numbers, it'd be some equation of words, actions, choices, feelings, etc...so that I wind up identifying the unspoken variables...which results in situations such as mediating between others, like, "uhh, what they're actually trying to say is..." because I know the person and understand them well enough to do that. Extrapolation is a large part of that. I make predictions such as "So-and-so is going to end up distancing/drifting off, I think, based on demonstrated (words/behaviors) x, y, z." What I don't do, is place much TRUST in that, as I know that it's uncertain and the variables are able to alter the present trajectory things are on. But yeah, humans/relationships are extremely predictable to me. All of this is also relevant to how I figure things out that people don't expect me to, such as, having a crush that would be the very last person you'd probably expect them to. Those moments are always hilarious. Them: "I have something to tell you." Me: "Oh, you have a crush on so-and-so?" Them: "HOW THE FUCK DID YOU KNOW?" Lmaoo. Other ways it factors in, "Yeah, you're approaching this situation all wrong...you're wanting y, but your actions aren't those that'll lead you to y, these will lead you to z, because a+b without c = z, not y. If you want y, you have to do x rather than b, because blah blah."
I prefer to call it seeing the trajectory someone is on, though, not extrapolation. The difference is that extrapolation entails assuming that an existing pattern is going to continue in the same pattern in the future. Trajectory, on the other hand, entails using *currently present* factors in order to predict where that combination of (traits, behaviors, choices, etc) will ultimately take you...AKA what is the outcome of the present variables combined? This is a more accurate predictive method, as it is better attuned to changes that do occur within the patterns. Don't get me wrong, though......when there's a sudden change in someone's patterns, I notice. Big time. And I will also push for answers. That's probably annoying to some people, but I don't particularly care, because it has made alarms sound in my mind. "I see this change, what does it mean? What's going on?" Sometimes I can figure it out, though. If I know the person on a personal enough level.
So, with all of that said...I'm a complete skeptic that those pertain to "bad N," or if so, I'm unconvinced that 1D N is really as terrible as you're describing it. Maybe you're underestimating it a bit. I will say, though...outside of human/relationship dynamics, I can't do this well whatsoever. It's always more of a personal psychological assessment kind of skill. Business trends, stocks, etc....LOOOOOOOL uhhhh....*points out a distraction, makes an excuse, and walks away*
Anyway, I was wondering, since...honestly, to me it's quite clear that you're a decent person, and it was easy for me to tell that from quite early on. I wondered if it might be that your socialization style/methods are sending messages you don't mean to give, rather than her thinking something may be wrong with your character.
EDIT:
Or, perhaps...since you mentioned having difficulties with understanding boundaries before, you are talking about some things that maybe shouldn't be talked about so early on? Something like that?
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 01-19-2022 at 09:54 AM.
I used them interchangeably above, but that was a mistake.
Extrapolation: "The hospital cafeteria always serves soup on Fridays, so on Friday, they'll probably serve soup."
Trajectory: "The ingredients here are crushed tomatoes, tomato paste, onion, garlic, kale, chicken stock, cream, salt, and red pepper...this is going to be a soup."
The better you know someone personally, the more accurate you can be. Especially when you can use both extrapolation and trajectory combined. "These are your past patterns, these are your current [variables], this is where you're headed."
It's pretty short term, though...very much based on past/present, with insights into short-term future outcomes. Nothing like, "in 5 years from now..." it's...more like some vague sense of time (I actually don't ever put a solid time frame on it or even think about the time at all, and would probably be entirely wrong if I tried to), but it's generally something that occurs within the next few weeks/months of when I've called it.
If I understand you correctly, following someone's trajectory sounds more like deduction à la Sherlock Holmes, while extrapolating is more ( Ni ) style pattern recognition and prediction, like connecting the dots? To me the kitchen examples you provide sound more like the difference between propositional logic ( Ti ) versus deduction ( Te ), however.
Literally what i've been going through this month in navigating the next, new, different stage of my program in school. EII friend - "and the thing about being a student is that you're in a perpetual state of transition." but this stage REALLY IS new, and the only 'model' i've had for it is how my ILI friend experienced it. but going through it without dominant 4D Fi and complicated-ass feelings that can temptingly direct you entirely is very different, so this model has been of limited utility. 💪
I think everyone uses extrapolation and deduction to an extent. I think the difference comes in with one's focal point, though. That was Jung's entire definition of Feeling vs Thinking. People conflate feelings in the everyday sense of the word with Jungian Feeling, but Jung adamantly stressed that Feeling was a rational function just as much as Thinking is. The difference between Thinking and Feeling, according to Jung, was simply that Thinking prioritizes factual and impersonal factors, while Feeling prioritizes the personal and "the needs of the people." Honestly, if going by nothing but that, I'd sometimes type as a Logical type due to being abusively conditioned to prioritize the impersonal throughout the first 24 years of my life (so up until 6 years ago, although the conditioning stuck until about 2 years ago, with some of it still being worked past). Due to my unique background, I'm probably more balanced between both, as I do believe I started off as being ESI. Ever since I was little, I have always been more human/relationship-centric. I think becoming more T or Logic type was something I did to adapt to my environment, where F things were harshly punished and T things were "the only right way" to be.
Anyway, rabbit trail aside, the point I'm making is that F is not emotions, T is not thinking, and both types do process things rationally. Ts just prioritize facts over the emotional effects, while Fs are more inclined to take what would be seen as a compassion-based or personal approach. In other words...because all of this revolves around human emotions and the personal realm as a strong point of focus, while the impersonal, etc. are disproportionately out of focus (applying this same kind of reasoning to those makes me lost), this would all be feeling related rather than thinking related. It is the rational exploration of the world of emotional nuance, personal behaviors, relationship dynamics, and so forth.
Let's put it this way...Socionics talks about Ethical types offering duals/others assistance in navigating psychological distance, etc. If F was purely emotional, with no rationality, how in the hell would they be navigating those kinds of relationship dynamics?
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 01-20-2022 at 08:51 AM.
Wonder if my Gamma crew can give me pointers on how to give feedback to an ILI whom I worked with last semester. (I helped him, as a teaching assistant, run a class. He's an assistant professor.) He said to us, let's do a course debrief so we can generate ideas and improve it for the future. I asked if we can meet 1:1 rather than in the group so that I can share my thoughts without seeking validation from the other TAs. He is down for it, but I don't want to come down too hard and break his Fi or break his heart. (And I can be harsh -- I'm aware of that, and don't want to over-correct his ethics)
he's super smart and pretty self-aware but I do want to describe some things that i felt could be done better. Some of which stem from how he "suck[s] at delegating" which he said himself. I had to do significantly more work than another TA* (and two of us really had to do more than him) b/c we only divided things up in this ad hoc way and the ILI waited until last minute to make calls so was desperate to find any solution and then put it off his plate cos he's already strapped for time working for tenure and being an involved dad.
(he's already a bit aware of the inequality and did what he could to level it but it was continuing on and with no great solution... And it was significant and really stressful for me. Affected the time I have available for research which is like "the most impt thing" in this program, which he gets. and he's said b4 "you can tell me if it's too much" but it's not exactly easy to actually tell someone that when youre all just trying to stay above water AND they have power and authority over you.)
I don't really know any SEEs well at all :/ so I dont have a great intuition for how I could lead more with Se and put the Fi stuff more in the background. Let me know if you guys have thoughts, I have a day and a half until the meeting (it's just a 30 min one...) and i'm planning my strategy. Thanks
EDIT: PS He calls me "the detail-oriented one" and appreciates me detail-saving him b/c he focuses on the Ni content of the class (which is admittedly awesome, and I'm going to emphasize/reiterate that -- he already knows I was impressed) and lets all these details frickin hang in the air for a 150 student class. Which is way too stressful for my Te seeking and Ne polr so the students were asking questions to all of us online and I would reply lol which was a ton of labor aah.
I guess we have a good vibe overall but sometimes I had to play nice a little bit and hide my true feelings. i've given him a LOT of compliments before like he can be really funny with his humor. And he's super articulate i'll be like i love how you put [X] in the lecture and he's like aw thanks! you guys dont have to validate me on how lecture went but i very much welcome it!
and once i mentioned therapy (in context of scheduling) and then he then alluded to having a therapist himself haha. So I felt like I was giving some Fi that he liked, and Se/Si with attention to detail.
I do know an SEE who seemed like she loved TAing for him but i also heard she also spent way more than the supposed hourly range per week, just like i did. But one of the main issues I have with ILIs as supervisors is that I can't get my work done as quickly as it seems SEEs can, I work more slowly than they do. (I work pretty slowly, for sure)
So yeah, I couldn't half-ass grading 283 short essay responses in a 4 day window at the end of the semester. It took a lot out of me
total vent sesh here... yeah. I have a LOT of ILIs in my life. There seem to be a lot here too! Appreciate any help, thank you)))
Last edited by spacious; 01-24-2022 at 04:42 AM.
@wonderwoman, if it were me in that situation, I’d state as succinctly as possible just the bare facts of what needs to be improved in the course, and then step away from the bus. Just walk away.Wonder if my Gamma crew can give me pointers on how to give feedback to an ILI whom I worked with last semester. (I helped him, as a teaching assistant, run a class. He's an assistant professor.) He said to us, let's do a course debrief so we can generate ideas and improve it for the future. I asked if we can meet 1:1 rather than in the group so that I can share my thoughts without seeking validation from the other TAs. He is down for it, but I don't want to come down too hard and break his Fi or break his heart. (And I can be harsh -- I'm aware of that, and don't want to over-correct his ethics)
he's super smart and pretty self-aware but I do want to describe some things that i felt could be done better. Some of which stem from how he "suck[s] at delegating" which he said himself. I had to do significantly more work than another TA* (and two of us really had to do more than him) b/c we only divided things up in this ad hoc way and the ILI waited until last minute to make calls so was desperate to find any solution and then put it off his plate cos he's already strapped for time working for tenure and being an involved dad.
(he's already a bit aware of the inequality and did what he could to level it but it was continuing on and with no great solution... And it was significant and really stressful for me. Affected the time I have available for research which is like "the most impt thing" in this program, which he gets. and he's said b4 "you can tell me if it's too much" but it's not exactly easy to actually tell someone that when youre all just trying to stay above water AND they have power and authority over you.)
I don't really know any SEEs well at all :/ so I dont have a great intuition for how I could lead more with Se and put the Fi stuff more in the background. Let me know if you guys have thoughts, I have a day and a half until the meeting (it's just a 30 min one...) and i'm planning my strategy. Thanks
EDIT: PS He calls me "the detail-oriented one" and appreciates me detail-saving him b/c he focuses on the Ni content of the class (which is admittedly awesome, and I'm going to emphasize/reiterate that -- he already knows I was impressed) and lets all these details frickin hang in the air for a 150 student class. Which is way too stressful for my Te seeking and Ne polr so the students were asking questions to all of us online and I would reply lol which was a ton of labor aah.
I guess we have a good vibe overall but sometimes I had to play nice a little bit and hide my true feelings. i've given him a LOT of compliments before like he can be really funny with his humor. And he's super articulate i'll be like i love how you put [X] in the lecture and he's like aw thanks! you guys dont have to validate me on how lecture went but i very much welcome it!
and once i mentioned therapy (in context of scheduling) and then he then alluded to having a therapist himself haha. So I felt like I was giving some Fi that he liked, and Se/Si with attention to detail.
I do know an SEE who seemed like she loved TAing for him but i also heard she also spent way more than the supposed hourly range per week, just like i did. But one of the main issues I have with ILIs as supervisors is that I can't get my work done as quickly as it seems SEEs can, I work more slowly than they do. (I work pretty slowly, for sure)
So yeah, I couldn't half-ass grading 283 short essay responses in a 4 day window at the end of the semester. It took a lot out of me
total vent sesh here... yeah. I have a LOT of ILIs in my life. There seem to be a lot here too! Appreciate any help, thank you
He’s not going to be able to “hear” most of your criticisms and he’s certainly not going to be able to change how he acts.
His best bet will be to, yes, find an amenable SEE who can help him with the parts that he sucks at.
I have a lot of ILI friends and I work with some ILIs. I have never been able to get them to change their approach to their work. I’ve stopped trying. My complaint is that they deep-dive into a subject and over-emphasize parts which don’t matter because they missed the parts which do matter.
When they make mistakes (as everyone does), they don’t try to change their approach; but rather they try to reframe the problem so their same approach would have worked, if the sky were green and we lived solely on musical tones.
ILIs can be incredibly smart and they have superior Ni predictive powers, although they are not as infallible as they would like to imagine. However, they can really miss social cues (they don’t trust other people, hence their problems with delegating) and they are not that practical, so if I were you, I’d try to point him towards a smart, compliant SEE who can run interference for him and can work with him without him concluding that they are stupid.
Sorry if my advice isn’t helpful, but I don’t think there is much help that can be had here.
Oh, and one more thing.
Don’t try to be an SEE. That j/p gulf is much too wide to effectively cross.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-24-2022 at 05:34 AM.
As for ILIs and SEEs working fast, yes, they can seem to work fast.
I’m in a business where details matter and you can’t fake stuff, because you can’t fix mistakes when the mistakes are in orbit.
So I gave the job of designing a lens mount to an ILI. He finished it in 1/5 the time that I expected.
In the design review, he presented it as being done. It was a kinematic design and had tip-tilt adjustments, but no X-Y adjustments.
”Where are the X-Y adjustments?”, I asked.
”Oh, I can add those in five minutes.”
No, god couldn’t add those in five minutes.
I looked closer at the design. He had copied a mount for a 5 mm lens and had just scaled it up to a 100 mm lens. They are completely different animals.
He was fast because he was making his parts out of popsicle sticks and hot melt glue, so to speak.
He’s made designs before which no machine shop will bid on, because they can’t be made in the real, Se world.
So don’t beat yourself up for moving carefully and more slowly.
@Adam Strange THANK YOU!!!It actually helps a lot to hear this, b/c i feel like i can let go of some of my rage lol and my full desire to be really honest w him, cos i also agree (as my 'gut' or w/e was telling me) that probably not much is gonna change. He did ASK for feedback though, so i feel like there's some room to be honest, but I'm going to frame it much differently, having talked about it here and heard your advice. The "oh but this would have worked if," that's totally his energy. Used to drive me crazy haha; you can't Ni out of everything...
I really appreciate it
Hi @wonderwoman,
Like Adam said, simply cut to the chase with the bad news. It's a general rule that bad news should be introduced quickly, and he already expects feedback, so you don't have to beat around the bush. Since he's also already somewhat aware of his poor delegation practices, you don't have to sugarcoat them. Especially since he's an ILI and this is work-related you can be honest. It's not like you're judging him on his athleticism or parenting, because those topics would have been sensitive, but in the work environment, especially academia, ILIs are confident. I do recommend you to provide some positives afterwards, as is another good practice for giving any bad news. Essentially, just follow the order of your post here, or write it down as a mnemonic even.
Viel Erfolg!
Armitage
Just straight up tell him what to do (in detail). Like Armitage said, as long as it's work relate and not personal, most ILI can take it whithout too much hard feeling. (They agree with it or not is a different story though). Can use a little more Se to push him to actually do shit.Wonder if my Gamma crew can give me pointers on how to give feedback to an ILI whom I worked with last semester. (I helped him, as a teaching assistant, run a class. He's an assistant professor.) He said to us, let's do a course debrief so we can generate ideas and improve it for the future. I asked if we can meet 1:1 rather than in the group so that I can share my thoughts without seeking validation from the other TAs. He is down for it, but I don't want to come down too hard and break his Fi or break his heart. (And I can be harsh -- I'm aware of that, and don't want to over-correct his ethics)
he's super smart and pretty self-aware but I do want to describe some things that i felt could be done better. Some of which stem from how he "suck[s] at delegating" which he said himself. I had to do significantly more work than another TA* (and two of us really had to do more than him) b/c we only divided things up in this ad hoc way and the ILI waited until last minute to make calls so was desperate to find any solution and then put it off his plate cos he's already strapped for time working for tenure and being an involved dad.
(he's already a bit aware of the inequality and did what he could to level it but it was continuing on and with no great solution... And it was significant and really stressful for me. Affected the time I have available for research which is like "the most impt thing" in this program, which he gets. and he's said b4 "you can tell me if it's too much" but it's not exactly easy to actually tell someone that when youre all just trying to stay above water AND they have power and authority over you.)
I don't really know any SEEs well at all :/ so I dont have a great intuition for how I could lead more with Se and put the Fi stuff more in the background. Let me know if you guys have thoughts, I have a day and a half until the meeting (it's just a 30 min one...) and i'm planning my strategy. Thanks
EDIT: PS He calls me "the detail-oriented one" and appreciates me detail-saving him b/c he focuses on the Ni content of the class (which is admittedly awesome, and I'm going to emphasize/reiterate that -- he already knows I was impressed) and lets all these details frickin hang in the air for a 150 student class. Which is way too stressful for my Te seeking and Ne polr so the students were asking questions to all of us online and I would reply lol which was a ton of labor aah.
I guess we have a good vibe overall but sometimes I had to play nice a little bit and hide my true feelings. i've given him a LOT of compliments before like he can be really funny with his humor. And he's super articulate i'll be like i love how you put [X] in the lecture and he's like aw thanks! you guys dont have to validate me on how lecture went but i very much welcome it!
and once i mentioned therapy (in context of scheduling) and then he then alluded to having a therapist himself haha. So I felt like I was giving some Fi that he liked, and Se/Si with attention to detail.
I do know an SEE who seemed like she loved TAing for him but i also heard she also spent way more than the supposed hourly range per week, just like i did. But one of the main issues I have with ILIs as supervisors is that I can't get my work done as quickly as it seems SEEs can, I work more slowly than they do. (I work pretty slowly, for sure)
So yeah, I couldn't half-ass grading 283 short essay responses in a 4 day window at the end of the semester. It took a lot out of me
total vent sesh here... yeah. I have a LOT of ILIs in my life. There seem to be a lot here too! Appreciate any help, thank you
following up on my previous post and thank you so much for the advice, @Adam Strange, @Armitage and @Tarnished:
Met with the ILI professor and it went so well
him:
"that's very insightful" "oh that's really helpful" *Ni mode for 3 minutes* "one possible vision is..." "I felt like you put in extra effort and that really helped give a charge to the class" "giving those lectures you know that can be pretty intimidating and i would look over and see you nodding and that really helped, like 'yeah!' like throughout the semester" "feel free to follow up in the future (etc)"
Good to hear and well done!
Armitage, thank you!
to be sure, I've had meetings [not with him but previously with other authority-type figures] go far, far, FAR worse, so it genuinely feels good to be learning from past mistakes and trying different things in my preparation - which is what i did by soliciting advice from you all. (Lol, total Te seeking I'm sure.) In the past my primary strategy was to talk strategy with my ILI friend -- which i also did for this meeting before posting here. it's not that her help doesn't help at all but over time i came to realize that there were differences i wasnt accounting for in how she and i would handle situations (and speak, etc) that would play themselves out *despite* her greatly helping to suggest for me a structure to follow in the meeting.
and i would have these feelings before such meetings like that something still felt off, basically my inner wisdom that it still might not go well. yet, her feedback was so eye-opening nevertheless (Ni, Te, Ne, Ti...) and she would be so encouraging of me that i would follow her suggested strategy regardless.
also, she doesn't know socionics, and that's a huge factor here as well.
just wanted to provide some additional context for the meaning and import of this meeting's success.
I thoroughly love when LIEs declare out loud what is about to happen next. The in-the-moment sharing of the perception is incredibly satisfying and supportive to me. <3
I think that this video brilliantly illustrates a solid ESI-LIE dynamic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iojBgNj6hO8 Their interaction feels really natural, especially since they are not consciously aware that they're duals, because they were still working under the assumption of Myers-Briggs being true.
The ESI and LIE have been really good friends ever since high-school, which shows how Socionics' duality works. MBTI's pairing of Fi's with Fe's, on the other hand, doesn't work, as the ESI shows when discussing his MBTI ideal pairing with EIE's: "They're moral sucks."
Do you have to work with him again? Those sound like pretty vague answers lolfollowing up on my previous post and thank you so much for the advice, @Adam Strange, @Armitage and @Tarnished:
Met with the ILI professor and it went so well
him:
"that's very insightful" "oh that's really helpful" *Ni mode for 3 minutes* "one possible vision is..." "I felt like you put in extra effort and that really helped give a charge to the class" "giving those lectures you know that can be pretty intimidating and i would look over and see you nodding and that really helped, like 'yeah!' like throughout the semester" "feel free to follow up in the future (etc)"
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Of all the friends I've had, easily the best was my friendship with my high school ESI buddy. I knew absolutely nothing about personalities then, but I knew that I loved that guy.
For the record, all of the ESIs (male and female) whom I've known are incredibly easy to get along with.
And yes, MBTI said that the best match for LIEs is LSIs. I think this might be true for about three weeks, and then it's not.
The ESI in the video actually surprised me, because he's the spitting image of an old scouting friend of mine. He looks like an older brother to the former friend, more so even than his actual brother does. Even their facial expressions and mimicry matched, including his nervous, red-faced laugh. I was flabbergasted to see so many similarities.
The scouting friend and I have lost contact for a few years already, because he didn't make time for me anymore ever since he dropped out of his electrical engineering university study and switched to an university of applied sciences study in mathematics. He does enjoy his mathematics study, though, which I already hoped for him. I actually was the one who recommended it to him in the first place, because he had always been fascinated by mathematics. His high-school exam project combined mathematics with musical theory, for instance.
Anyway, when he switched studies he started hanging out with his Gym buddies more and more, which is cool, but so much so that it came to the exclusion of me. It didn't help that he had fallen into a depression after dropping out of university, but he still tried putting up a happy face for them. When, on the other hand, I tried to meet up with him or texted him, he had no time because he was hanging out with them, or felt too tired to hang out together or to text for long.
I remember that on his birthday that year he was consoled very much by the AC//DC compact disc and plectrums that I had sent him, because all his Gym buddies had cancelled for his birthday visit. At least someone thought of him, because he had been in tears before. He moved his party a week later to accommodate them, and also invited me... but he had forgotten to tell me the location. So instead of at the party venue I stood in front of his house and was led in by his parents, who were surprised to see me.
After that I tried to keep up contact with him for several months still, but after he also ditched me on king's day to join his Gym buddies instead, forgot my birthday ( again ), and then I saw him posing as a macho in his holiday pictures online to "fit in", any goodwill from me disappeared. I have other friends who actually value my friendship and who do reciprocate, so I know it's been a greater loss for him than for me, because he didn't at the time and perhaps still doesn't.
ESIs can seem strange sometimes. I've had good friendships with ESIs before, and then we drift apart for a few years, and then get back together when they run into some disaster in their lives. I'm not sure how to interpret this. It's like they want to be seen, but don't feel up to the challenge or something. That''s just a wild guess, though, since I don't know very well how they think.
I, too, lost track of my high school ESI buddy when we went to different colleges. He invited me to his wedding (to an ILI), but he didn't make me Best Man, instead opting for an older ESE friend of his, which really pissed me off. I mean, I loved him, but he didn't love me. (Lol)
When I was in his town, years later, I stopped at his house for a visit and he cooked a fantastic lunch, then we went out to his university and just talked for hours. He said he wished I lived in his city so we could do that every day. I thought to myself, "That isn't happening. I can't make a great living here." This was before I discovered Socionics.
So, maybe both of us were guilty of not valuing the other enough.
This kind of pattern has repeated with four other ESIs whom I know; two women and two men. So, what the hell is going on here?
What I saw is that they desire to belong, be deemed cool, and popular. But since they oftentimes have been wallflowers all their lives, they never achied this. Some go on to mock everything that's deemed popular, some accept their lives and are happy with their quality of relationships, instead of the quantity, and others spend most of their lives trying to be liked by people who don't care about them, while taking for granted those who do. They cannot love the people that love them, because they don't love themselves. Hence, they subconsciously perceive the people who love them as flawed and broken for loving them, because deep down they believe themselves to be unlovable. Instead, they try to prove to themselves that they are lovable by attempting to become popular, because they believe that if they can convince the popular people who don't care for them to care for them, then they themselves must be lovable after all and all their problems will suddenly disappear in the blink of an eye. ... Yeah, this shows them mixing up Fi for Te.
So they sell themselves out to the cool guys who don't care for them, try to fit in, and eventually become just like them, while losing everything that made them good and special in the process.
As @End would put it: "It's all about attachment."
I think that the desire to be popular is characteristic for Se-introverts, because a similar thing happened when a former LSI friend befriended the teens who didn't like me for not playing by their whims. I'm rather on my own than someone telling me when to laugh, what to like, and what to enjoy. It was way too Alpha for my tastes, so I didn't fit in with that. The LSI with his desire to be popular tried to be friends with both them and me simultaneously. I can tell you that that didn't work. Damn, I really sucked in my teens at Fi-evaluating my friendships with people. I recall my ESI mom already having bad feelings about some of them, but I ignored her warnings, because I was a teen and teenagers ignore their parents.
Fortunately I have gotten better at befriending the right people, because for the past half a decade such a thing hasn't happened anymore with any close friend. Even more, now it are my friends who warn me for trouble like the money ESI-Se.
Last edited by Armitage; 02-03-2022 at 08:08 PM.
Forgive my joyous/insane laughter but it really is all coming together now. You're getting it! I've said that realizing how important attachment is and how it really is the final piece of the puzzle makes it all make sense no matter what "theory" you're working from.
What you describe is indeed indicative of the thinking processes of those who suffer from deep attachment issues. They reject honest love because they do indeed believe themselves unworthy of/incapable of receiving it. Jung himself was rather adamant about how hard it is/was to bring a subconscious assumption/belief into the realm of the conscious if memory serves. Hence why most everyone who has either major or minor attachment issues are totally unaware of that unless some asshole like me walks them through it step by step and even then it's not guaranteed to work (i.e. it won't ever work on "the lost" as I refer to them).
So you've typed your own mum as your dual type eh? Must be nice. Supervising my own is rather hard. It's rather difficult to phraseprophecy in such a way that her
will not perceive as a challenge or threat. I've caused her to break down into tears many a time. She hates being "useless" as she terms it as I take care of her in multiple ways that are currently keeping her out of a nursing home.
I have not the language to convince her that she is in no way useless to me in most any way I can imagine. Yet an LSE is going to think and act as an LSE does. She desires me to leave the home and find my future. I respond by telling her I will never shirk my familial duty to take care of her in her old age and that if any prospective marriage partner has a problem with that, well, they ain't worth my time.
In ancient times nobody questioned the realities of the situation. Parents took care of their children and, when the final years of your life came about, your children returned the favor. That this expression of moral reality is causing my LSE mother (and I'd bet most any and all LSE's) an anxiety attack is yet one more crime God and I myself will hold the PTB to account for when this all comes to a head.
They succeeded in maximizing the suffering and immiseration of us all. Hehehe, they're gonna regret that. I'm going to make them regret that...
What do you think you're going to do about it?Forgive my joyous/insane laughter but it really is all coming together now. You're getting it! I've said that realizing how important attachment is and how it really is the final piece of the puzzle makes it all make sense no matter what "theory" you're working from.
What you describe is indeed indicative of the thinking processes of those who suffer from deep attachment issues. They reject honest love because they do indeed believe themselves unworthy of/incapable of receiving it. Jung himself was rather adamant about how hard it is/was to bring a subconscious assumption/belief into the realm of the conscious if memory serves. Hence why most everyone who has either major or minor attachment issues are totally unaware of that unless some asshole like me walks them through it step by step and even then it's not guaranteed to work (i.e. it won't ever work on "the lost" as I refer to them).
So you've typed your own mum as your dual type eh? Must be nice. Supervising my own is rather hard. It's rather difficult to phrase
I have not the language to convince her that she is in no way useless to me in most any way I can imagine. Yet an LSE is going to think and act as an LSE does. She desires me to leave the home and find my future. I respond by telling her I will never shirk my familial duty to take care of her in her old age and that if any prospective marriage partner has a problem with that, well, they ain't worth my time.
In ancient times nobody questioned the realities of the situation. Parents took care of their children and, when the final years of your life came about, your children returned the favor. That this expression of moral reality is causing my LSE mother (and I'd bet most any and all LSE's) an anxiety attack is yet one more crime God and I myself will hold the PTB to account for when this all comes to a head.
They succeeded in maximizing the suffering and immiseration of us all. Hehehe, they're gonna regret that. I'm going to make them regret that...
You'll see, there's no stopping a Gamma with a mission in life.
OK, so I had a date set up for tomorrow morning with a woman I met on Match. I'm sure she's an ESI, so I made sure to let her know that we'd go to the Henry Ford Museum and then afterwards, have dinner at the Gandy Dancer in Ann Arbor. This was to reduce her Ne-PoLR fears and it was all set up through texts a week ago, and she seemed excited about it.
Today, I get a text from her. "Can't make it tomorrow. Sorry."
LIE: "Oh, no. Is anything wrong? We can reschedule when you have a better sense of when you are free, but I was looking forward to this."
ESI: "We have a new computer system at work and I have to learn it before I go on nights when no one is there to help me."
Which sounds like BS to me, but let's assume that it's legit. Maybe.
Honestly, I encounter this all the time. I make a date with an ESI, and she cancels at the last minute. Just read back on this thread and you'll see that I've had this happen time after time after time. It's almost like this is an essential part of being an ESI. Cancelling dates at the last minute.
It's so consistent that I'm beginning to think that this is some test that ESIs give to their dates. I mean, I've never had this happen with any other type, and I've had this happen with ESI after ESI after ESI. It's like it's a shit test or something.
I once was reading this book by an LIE businessman who was writing about how clear and certain and demanding he was and that's why he was rich and successful (and IMO an asshole, too) and he illustrated his "blessed by God" traits by telling the story about how he met his wife in college.
She was a friend of his buddy's girlfriend, maybe in a sorority or something, and he bought expensive tickets to some event for the four of them. Sure enough, an hour before they were to leave for the event, she called and cancelled.
Mr. ENTJ picked up the phone and called her. She said she wasn't feeling well. He told her that he wasn't feeling very well, either, because he'd just spent a lot of money on tickets and that money would be down the rat hole unless she got her sorry ass out of bed and got in a car and came over right that minute, because he wasn't going to tolerate her selfish bitchiness in front of his friends.
She did exactly that, they went to the event, and he eventually married her.
He had a picture of her in his book. ESI, IMO.
I thought, when I read his story, that he was only proving that he was a selfish asshole and was looking for a doormat for a wife, but maybe I've misjudged this whole fucking relationship.
Can any ESIs help me out here? What the fuck is going on?
From what I read, ESI LIE dualization starts with working together (Te). Dates and tours and dances are not work. Therefore the dualization does not start. The ENTJ businessman's story makes sense because losing money = wasted work = Te demands for ESI.
So why not start relation with ESI by working together? Camping, home improvement, etc.
Well, I'll be damned, @Vis. You're right.
I'll see if she can do some engineering work, or if she is good with a circular saw.
That's a joke, but you absolutely are right. I could see how she'd look at a trip to some museum as a waste of time, but I really don't want to ask her to do home improvements just yet.
I know an ESI-Se who loves camping. I know an ESI-Fi who hates camping. I think this one is the "hates camping" kind of ESI.
What to do, what to do? Now I have to think of something.....
Anyway, thanks.
Wow sounds so thoughtful, the date. Hm, I wonder if you could've kept the specifics of the plans to yourself for a bit longer -- thinking of how "Jack" doesn't tell "Dreiser" about tickets to the opera until the night of, or something. I get that they're already in an established relationship, but I would maybe prefer to not know the specifics until sooner in time when I can truly better estimate / sense my mental state and readiness to go forward with the date. Just a thought.
Hm, at first I was surprised by no "I'm so sorry" type flowering, but this actually might be a good thing... see below
Your response is pretty good. As an ESI lol my response would probably be something like "Oh, ok. What's going on? Anything you want to share?" She didn't rule out possibility of ever going out with you again, thus I personally wouldn't right away bring that back up. She said can't make it TOMORROW. We don't think very far into the future in specifics. [like, we might know factually that some event is scheduled for X years from now but that's different from being able to manipulate our schedule to meet that deadline, etc]
Yikes, something like that would take close to a full-time commitment for me. She can't see into the future very well right now, she has to shut off outside world stimulation and focus her all on mastering this. (Without a dual or activity partner or someone else compatible to take some load off)
Frustrating. I would maybe give it a couple weeks or so before reaching back out and asking how learning the new system is going. Don't immediately start asking about when she will be free to see you. Maybe a conversation about the system unfolds. She gets to show off what she's learning and you may be able to give a pointer or two. Maybe she starts to feel a bond with you and more trusting of you and decides "you know what, I think I can afford the mental space it would take to meet up with this Adam guy. As long as work the rest of the week goes according to "plan" and I am free that Thursday night after all. It will be very hectic up until the last minute finishing up, and I'll probably be frantic and harried before seeing him, plus nervous/suspicious of someone new, but just maybe the cards will align and I will keep the date."
Trying to think - when the guy in a grad school class asked me out in early 2020, I think I canceled our second date, like 36 hours ahead of time, but that was more letting him know entirely that I didn't think we were gonna work, not vaguely cancelling a follow-up date or first date, which it seems like you've experienced from many an ESI. (Not saying I'm better than them or anything; I do tend to have a distinct strong nervous feeling just before going into a date, but I tend to push through it b/c something was driving me to set up the date, right?) I can't think of a time that I've stood someone up / canceled any closer in time than that. Oh, I tried to push back going out with an ILE for a week and he talked me into seeing him the next day. You can check the Adventures in Dating thread to find out how that went, jk don't.
Seems frustrating, sigh but there's my 2 cents anyway.
HAHAHA that kind of response, well, I do find it clever and I would STFU probably b/c I got big-picture outsmarted in being handed a view of the situation and the impacts my actions are having in it larger than I'd focused on before.
Naw you know a lot and are doing well, "dating is a numbers game"... plus I wonder if ESIs are extra suspicious of people we meet on dating apps. Could be
"That's cool, what computer system?" I would just use the Te opportunity she already shared as one that's in her life to try to build a connection from there. While keeping it casual, respecting her competence at her job, sharing any tips that come to mind or any similar experience with what she's working with. That's what I would suggest. Conversing about something Te-related that could benefit her life in the near term.
Also, maybe her job isn't as focused on the computer system itself as I first thought it might be. I don't know and don't need to know her profession, but I would still build off of that system as an opening.
P.S. Notice how she said, "when no one is there to help me." Ahem.
P.P.S. It was another ESI who convinced me to cancel that pending 2nd date with the guy I didn't actually really want to go out with again, 36 hours before it was to come.
She herself went out with an EIE, then told the EIE extremely clearly that she just wanted to be friends; then (I think a week later?) told the EIE Actually, can we date after all?
We must do some weird things with our high Fi and Ne suspicions of people
:')...
ESI stuff
If I could go back in time I would tell myself to examine opportunities so much more closely before saying yes and diving into them. My relationship with my academic advisor, an ILI (different from the ILI I TA'd for and wrote about elsewhere) depresses me so much. It was going better last semester but she's so frickin out of touch with what a PhD student's actual needs for support here are and keeps on doing her thing. I'm far enough along and there are so few actually good advisors here that it's not feasible to switch. I did go massively out of my comfort zone and bring on an external committee member last fall who is a much, much better fit for me. Going to connect with her again soon; but I can't necessarily be honest about how dissatisfied I am with my relationship with my main advisor to her. She's seen some signs but she and I are still really new into our relationship.
How independent I'm living at this point in my life astounds me, in many areas. I mostly feel positively about it but god I wish I had SO much more support in working towards actually getting this degree, and planning the dissertation research that I'm working to propose soon. Yeah, no LIE professors here unfortunately, our department is pretty small. I took the advice of others whom I trusted at the time to go to a top 20 program b/c at the time I did want an academic job (ie the tenure track dream), and hiring is so biased in that the top 20 grads definitely do get hired WAY more than those who went to less 'elite' programs. But I blossom well in NURTURING environments, and this department is the opposite of that. Some have been lucky and been taken under the wing of supportive advisors who actually MENTOR them and care about them as people. I know it's like okay but if I'd gotten that kind of support (that I dream of) then I wouldn't have gotten to learn all of the things that I'm having and have had to learn, like how to step back and assess what my actual needs are and then come up with a strategy/plan of how to get them meet. Well, it was therapeutic to get this out.
I got this.
In the end the top 20 PhD program will pay off when you finish it, as you keep far more career options open this way. It's just a shame that you didn't do a master beforehand to prepare you for this, because that would have helped you go a long way. Weird American education system, spending the most of the West on education, but getting the worst results out of it, because it's spend so ineffectively. Especially since most of the funding goes to private universities, which already have a lot of money, whereas the public universities are underpaid, but would do so much better with a little more. The rich people can get in their preferred jobs anyway through money and connections, poorer people who resort to public education need that degree to get to the position where they belong. If the American government would properly invest into education in a smart way, it would already pay out in a single electoral term and would boost the economy. The same applies to healthcare, because it prevents and mitigates the productivity losses of employees through sickness, and too improving the ( digital ) infrastructure too, because it increases connectivity.
America should stop putting all their money into developing new weapons, and start building their society, instead of bombing others. Educate the masses and win that Cold War v2.0 against China in cyberspace. China understands all too well that the wars of today are not fought with guns and bombs, but through dominance over communication networks and economic means. Why do you think that the Chinese Communist Party invested so much in developing HUWEI's 5G networking technology as an export product? Who dominates cyberspace, obtains all the information, and knowledge is power. Even Russia combines cyberwarfare with conventional warfare into hybrid wars, like they do by turning off power plants in Ukraine and infiltrating government websites. Brute force and numbers aren't enough anymore, America has to educate its masses to keep up. #EuropeanCommonSense
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