Differences between ESE-ESFj and LSE-ESTj

[lemontrees]

I only really know females of these types (minus my LSE dad) so that's who I'll talk about.

ESE's exude a more organic warmth, whereas LSE's exude more of a crisper, sustained bubbliness, from my point of view.

A lot of LSE women use Fe-role very much and it comes across like they are super excited about everything, whereas ESE women have smoother transitions between their emotions.

If you pay attention to the content of LSE's speech they are often constantly asking about things like "How did you make that dish?" "How many people are already enrolled in this class?" "So your purpose for coming here primarily is to meet more people?" "How are you going to get to location b on Sunday- do you need a ride?" They also take a lot of pride in finagling something in a creative way using Te, so they will tell stories in which they did something using a strange method and cut steps but it came out fantastic, etc. Or proudly say things like, "I came to this party bringing just the wine I had left over in my house... it needed to be drunk anyway! So actually I didn't purchase anything!" Or, "I know the department gives us funding to go to [conference in April]. I think we could just apply for the money and then use it to take a small vacation... I've been thinking about inviting you guys to my childhood home."

ESE's are a bit more...alpha flavored I guess. They are a bit more likely to spend more time talking passionately about "frivolous" things like clothes and Miyazaki movies and be not averse to sci-fi/ fantasy. They can sometimes use Te-role a lot too, but you know that at the end of the day they're reading and responding to emotional signals. Sometimes they get overly emotional and I ignore them by withdrawing into what I consider "pure Si" mode until the mood passes. Conversation topics revolve more about people, friends, their jobs, etc, than larger societal trends that cause a economic shift with bad humanistic implications or whatever- more SF type topics. Even for so-firsts, it seems that you still focus on these "people" topics just on a larger scale.

LSE's often come across to me as "cool and hip" whereas ESE's come across more as "girlish and interpersonal." To me LSE's come across as having a more classically "boyish" air or a mix of feminine and masculine qualities whereas ESE's are classically feminine.

[Olduvai]

Willie Robertson (LSE)

Sadie Robertson (ESE)

also, Si Robertson (IEE)

[Whoobie77]

My mom is an ESE. From a (probable) Te/Fi user's perspective, it appears to me as though an invisible stormcloud of rapidly changing emotions follows her everywhere. My Fe is very primitive, so I will usually show either 1) no affect at all or 2) extremely exaggerated gestures like eye-rolls when I'm frustrated. It causes a lot of conflict. She's very lighthearted (the thing about Alphas being perpetually very childlike is true of her). As an objective ethics user, her morality comes from an objective source that she received when she was a child (Catholic dogma), and this often causes conflict, as my moral map is a wonky mishmash of rules of thumb I've made up on the fly. A good example of a conflict situation between us is when we go to Disney World, a favorite vacation spot of hers. For her, it's "the happiest place on Earth" (Fe), while I personally am sick of it because I've been so many times (Fi). She's always happy the whole time we are there because that's the objective emotional atmosphere, which I have trouble meeting.

One of my professors from this past year was an LSE. His Te base makes him intimidating when you first meet him, even for me, a Te valuer. His class was tough, as he is able to retain huge amounts of historical data, and expects you to do the same. The thing about Deltas being the eldest quadra makes sense for him; where I can easily see what my mother was like as a child, for him, it seems as though wise old age was his time of ripening. He's a Christian, but, unlike my mother, who accepts everything in the Bible on blind faith due to strong Fe and weak Te, he is very academically detached from the text, and has a highly personalized, ineffable system which guides his reading. Still, he respects the information as time tested (Te). Despite being a intensely hard worker, you can see his inner INFj hippie sometimes. It's pretty obvious he furiously dreams of a pastoral communist utopia. He's always wearing business attire, per the ESTj stereotype.

Here's how you spot the difference. ESFjs will be childlike, cheerful, and not really intimidating. ESTjs will be mature, formal, and are kind of scary when you first meet them. ESFjs are your stereotypical nuclear family mom, and ESTjs are your stereotypical nuclear family dad (with apologies to male ESFjs and female ESTjs). Both may be conservative in outlook due to heavy Si, but this is not mandatory.

[lemontrees]

Despite being a intensely hard worker, you can see his inner INFj hippie sometimes. It's pretty obvious he furiously dreams of a pastoral communist utopia. He's always wearing business attire, per the ESTj stereotype.

LSE's often seem pretty hippy to me haha. There are plenty who are into drugs. They are also really great at multitasking and have good memories, so they can do their homework on the train to another city, party all night while there, study for a test on the way back...

They can also "Te on the fly," meaning they cam get themselves into extreme situations but still figure out where they need to go.

I knew an LSE woman who works in nonprofits but used to be a first mate on a ship, and had gone fishing with native tribes in Alaska cutting giant fish's throats open with a pocket knife or something. Another who spent a semester abroad in a Buddhist monastery and was really into WWOOF, and had lived off of food stamps at some point (I think as a comfortable practical alternative) while working in a cheese shop and pursuing creative outlets. Another who picked up a semi-feral cat while traveling through Southeast Asia and bribed some people for the proper paperwork to transport back to North America...

There is definitely the other variety though.

[Whoobie77]

They can also "Te on the fly," meaning they cam get themselves into extreme situations but still figure out where they need to go.

Yeah, I know what you mean. The LSE I described in my last post is also a part time archaeologist who hangs around in transitive Palestine tribes when he goes over to the Middle East. And I had LSE middle school teacher/scoutmaster. He was ex-military and had a Spartan helmet tattooted on his right arm. He'd take us out in the woods and be like "THIS IS SPARTA!" and would push us to develop the technical skills to fend for ourselves, while also still having a kind of paternalistic protectiveness that was willing to help when we really needed it.

[Pookie]

ESE's don't understand the joke and laugh.
LSE's don't understand the joke and don't.

[Beautiful sky]

In discussion an ESE can get heated really fast and bring their voice up too loud. An LSE draws their voice down on purpose to draw someone into a discussion and if things get heated instead of sticking around and rousing more emotional outbursts, which they dislike, they will simply leave.

[woofwoofl]

LSE vs ESE. Any LSEs here; if you know ahead of time that you gotta fight an ESE, I'll walk through hell and back with you and train the shit out of you until you can absolutely steamroll the fucker without even quickening your pulse.

From where I stand, it just feels like LSEs have their shit together in general, and are more chill. If we find a subject to connect on, we can talk about the ins and outs of it for hours, and then hopefully get some cool shit done as a result of the convo. With me and the ESEs, it's like there's a constant stream of noise, confusion, and drama from their end and it's pure hell to deal with. I begin to envy the deaf, and this is coming from someone who once stayed up 50 hours in a row to get just the right sound when producing for a local band for free. One of the ESEs had to have been arbitrarily categorizing everything around him, and he made wild guesses about shit, hung sheets of paper with cheesy little quotes and mantras all over the place for fuck knows why, literally paraded around a room in a sea of confusion that I suspect he built all by himself, and I swear, I feel like those people just talk so they can hear the sound of their own head roar and make everyone else hear it too. Terrible.

If this is all sounding negative overall, those are my experiences, and I know someone other than me would make sense of whatever it is they do and have a good time with it. I kinda feel bad that I'm not able to do that myself regularly. It's also possible that I just happened to run into a bunch of real shitheads.

[Olduvai]

In discussion an ESE can get heated really fast and bring their voice up too loud. An LSE draws their voice down on purpose to draw someone into a discussion and if things get heated instead of sticking around and rousing more emotional outbursts, which they dislike, they will simply leave.

nice observation you must have first-hand experience with ESE

[Beautiful sky]

nice observation you must have first-hand experience with ESE

I dated them because I couldn't find LSE and about half the women in my family are ESE.

[willekeurig]

LSE's often seem pretty hippy to me haha. There are plenty who are into drugs. They are also really great at multitasking and have good memories, so they can do their homework on the train to another city, party all night while there, study for a test on the way back...

They can also "Te on the fly," meaning they cam get themselves into extreme situations but still figure out where they need to go.

I knew an LSE woman who works in nonprofits but used to be a first mate on a ship, and had gone fishing with native tribes in Alaska cutting giant fish's throats open with a pocket knife or something. Another who spent a semester abroad in a Buddhist monastery and was really into WWOOF, and had lived off of food stamps at some point (I think as a comfortable practical alternative) while working in a cheese shop and pursuing creative outlets. Another who picked up a semi-feral cat while traveling through Southeast Asia and bribed some people for the proper paperwork to transport back to North America...

There is definitely the other variety though.

Woooa. You really need to send me some of your LSEs. I've only ever met maybe two that were like that.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

With me and the ESEs, it's like there's a constant stream of noise, confusion, and drama from their end and it's pure hell to deal with. I begin to envy the deaf, and this is coming from someone who once stayed up 50 hours in a row to get just the right sound when producing for a local band for free. One of the ESEs had to have been arbitrarily categorizing everything around him, and he made wild guesses about shit, hung sheets of paper with cheesy little quotes and mantras all over the place for fuck knows why, literally paraded around a room in a sea of confusion that I suspect he built all by himself, and I swear, I feel like those people just talk so they can hear the sound of their own head roar and make everyone else hear it too. Terrible.

Haaaaah. I can identify with some of this. My mother is a very bouncy person who can be very thoughtful and who loves to do things for others even at her own expense (time, energy, money, etc). That's not to say she is a pushover; she has often gotten frustrated with my stepfather because she expects him to be "a man" and to take care of issues like neglectful renters and the like, and she finds him way too lenient when he should be putting his foot down. (He apparently had the same problem at his job and was eventually pulled from the supervisor position they'd put him in.) I find her excessively concerned about what others think, to the point that she'll tone herself down to avoid disapproval. She's very witty and mouthy. She will walk around in public singing random ditties she made up on the fly. It's a lot of fun watching movies with her because of her snarky comments. She's incredibly good with math and teaches it at a local college, and she's the one who handles the family finances (Dad sometimes has to call her and make sure which card to use for certain things like getting gas). She's also occasionally sulky, sometimes highly irrational and over-emotional, and prone to yelling/screaming when particularly pissed off. She also has a relatively wide controlling streak. She slept with a lot of people in her younger days, and she was so freaked out about the possibility that I might turn out like her that she flipped out on me when I was nine years old because it came up that I mentioned liking a boy. Seriously, she made me stay away from those friends after that. My absolute lack of experience with the opposite sex led to a situation in adulthood where I ended up stabbed in the back by a close friend precisely because I had no experience and was too naive to understand what was going on around me. Her views on sex are absolutely Puritan, and she doesn't seem to understand that if she teaches her kids that sex is bad and icky, they're not going to magically transform on their wedding night (should they wait that long for sex, as she wishes) and suddenly have sex without any hangups just because it's now in the proper context. (Weak , maybe?) I've gotten to the point where I'm tired of walking on eggshells around her and tired of catering to her emotional bullshit. I've heard her yell "Divorce!" enough times that I tend to just wait and see now whether she actually means it. I feel sorry for some of the crap she has to put up with, but that doesn't mean I absolve her of all responsibility for her poor choices. She's getting better, but I think she's been a good example of an unhealthy ESE. Those are not fun.

[DirectorAbbie]

I know females and males of both types, but mostly ESEs females.

When it comes to decorating, the LSE will make suggestions and, if nobody disapproves, act on them. The ESE will eagerly exclaim what she thinks would be good and seems more interesting in collecting ideas to add to her own than in discounting her own suggestion. I think this is a positivist/negativist example.

I've had both LSE and ESE male teachers. The ESEs were more fun and prone to telling jokes. Both would poke fun at students they knew wouldn't mind. The LSE had a more set order of doing things, but that could be attributed to his being older than they.

I think the alpha/delta difference is a bigger one than the thinking/feeling difference. I know an ESE-Si who's been dualized and doesn't portray Fe as exuberantly as other ESE women, and I know an LSE-Si lady who isn't as obviously Te as I am.
ESEs are more focused on the feelings and mood of the whole room, whereas LSEs are disinterested in that but may be interested in their own feelings or those of a few individuals near them.

[Absurd]

whereas ESE's are classically feminine.

Ye, they're somewhat gay in a feminine sense of the word.

[wacey]

My last long term relationship was with an ESE. My current is with an LSE. I think the outwardly the similarities between these two is way more apparent then the differences. Which makes sense being that they are Look-a-likes.

[lemontrees]

Woooa. You really need to send me some of your LSEs. I've only ever met maybe two that were like that.

I think if you met any of these people in more formal settings they would be very professional. I think that's the nice thing about LSE's- they are often more responsible (than ESE, SEI) and can really go both ways. Which is to say, hopefully some of the ones you know secretly have that in them...

I'll def trade you some for some ILE's!

[Amber]

^^^Some of my best teachers were LSEs. A bit too conventional for my taste, but organized and competent. Demanding and efficient overall. I haven´t interacted with many ESEs irl ...I think 1 or 2 on more or less formal occasions. In study contexts, I´ve noticed ESE relies much more on the "ready-made" opinions of people in positions of authority (aka teachers) than on their own ideas.

[Whoobie77]

she's the one who handles the family finances...She's also occasionally sulky, sometimes highly irrational and over-emotional, and prone to yelling/screaming when particularly pissed off... Her views on sex are absolutely Puritan, and she doesn't seem to understand that if she teaches her kids that sex is bad and icky, they're not going to magically transform on their wedding night (should they wait that long for sex, as she wishes) and suddenly have sex without any hangups just because it's now in the proper context.

As a (tenuously) fellow Gamma, I I.D. with so much of this. -Fe wants to live in a land where people don't have bad or Dionysian sides, and -Fi wants to eliminate extraneous elements of their ethical persona. So an Alpha rational parent (Fe, Ne, and Ti) will have some weirdo platonic ideal for the Gamma kid, and the Gamma kid is just trying to get their head straight and do a pragmatic assessment of their virtues and vices. It's like oil and water.

At least in my experience.

[Beautiful sky]

If you think of an ESE tries to find systems that work (like books on efficient time management is a system that they will try - one is "7 Habits of Highly Efficient People") because they want to bypass the Te and achieve the result; an LSE doesn't seek this as they do look for work and do look at the process, the ESE is less geared towards finding the How's of things (where and LSE will say things like "if you want to interact with different crowds especially potentially mean ones you need to know how to speak with these people) and ESE will simply watch the cues that these people put out not necessarily having putting forethought in the method or the process. As a result type, the ESE focuses on their end objective, "I just need to go there. That's where I need to be." And LSE is more like "I need to know how to get there."

[consentingadult]

ESE's don't understand the joke and laugh.
LSE's don't understand the joke and don't.

LOL. I completely concur. I want to add that LSEs in such cases will have their typical stupified look on their faces.

[Beautiful sky]

I'll give you an example of a friend who is ESE and his result screams.
So, we, I mean I was doing his taxes yesterday and I wanted to see if I could get his new car expensed under his business under title 179. So, I don't usually do this because most of the people I prepare taxes for lease their cars rather than buying them. I pulled up the IRS page on title 179 and proceeded to read it careful. I had to make a bathroom run and I asked Matt to read it and try to understand it's requirements till I came back. He was already furious that he wasn't achieving the results he wanted without having taken time to understand the rules. He was getting upset, voicing loud disappointments "how hard could this be!" "This shouldn't have to take me three hours to do!" Me, being calm and conflict avoidance, and always remaining quiet and calm (actually that alone calms him down as he sees his emotional reaction and being a feeler type observes me and feels bad for putting me through his tantrums). I asked him what he gathered from the reading and he said he didn't that he couldn't figure out the steps, he just wants to know what to do so he can do it and attain the results that he wants. While me, being a process type, picked up the article and proceeded to break it down into steps for him. I asked him from beginning to end, trying to engage him calmly, "does this apply to you? if no then we need to move ahead..." only to see him more angry and frustrated so I had to abandon a step which he didn't want to any more. Had it been my dual everything would have gone smoothly, we would have actually been more careful as to check several sources, even a direct source to make sure we understood all things clearly before proceeding. Getting something done with an ESE is hard for me as I'm often confronted with this result tendency. But, he's a wonderful guy and he's very caring. The Ej temperament is wonderful for someone like me. One day it will be with my dual

[Adam Strange]

I have an LSE mother and sister and good friend, and I've worked with several LSE's, so I'm pretty familiar with them. I'm much less familiar with ESE's. The only two I've known (superficially) have been chefs.

So there is this one guy whom I know and, for a couple years, I thought for sure that he was an LSE. He works in the building trade as an old home remodeler and let me say, this guy has Si taste. He remodeled a rental house for me and the results are amazing; modern, updated, clean and very visually appealing, while keeping within the vision that the original designer had for the place. The only thing that puzzled me about him is that he has a hard time finding work and seems to be fairly bad with money. I mean, absolutely NO LSE that I know is bad with money.

He recently hurt his leg and can't work in (re)construction anymore, and he's trying to re-invent himself at age 50. (Fortunately, his GF is totally supportive of him in this, but they don't live together, so that might help.) He asked me how I went from being a factory rat to where I am now.

While talking with him, I was struck by how similar he and I are in temperament and background. His parents are working class and he has no idea how to entrepreneur. (Neither did I, but I figured it out.) He is great with design, but when he applied to a local Art Tile company, they said he needed to know Adobe, and he told me that he doesn't own a computer and doesn't even have internet. He also said he sucks at math, and now I'm thinking that this guy has zero Te. Then he shyly admits that he was in Theater in college, and I'm trying to remember ANY LSE who even went near the theater, other than to sneak in to watch because their wives insisted that they get cultured. ("Put down that damned fishing pole and take me someplace nice.")

So here's my problem: He totally VI's LSE in my book, but I don't know many ESE's to compare him with. He's got the zero Ni thing down, and boat loads of Si, but is he just poor at showing Te and is a bona fide LSE who completely sucks at money and math, or is he an ESE who was so squashed at home (his dad was a lifer at GM) that his Fe got lost and he had to go into the manly building trades?

Incidentally, he told me that when he first goes into a house to remodel and restore it, he stands in the place for a while and tries to "feel" the house, in order to do honor to it. Maybe that's Si and could be either LSE or ESE, IDK. He's very decisive when it comes to selecting remodeling options, and he's good. The places he works on don't feel like some architect came in and put a fancy steel and glass stairway right in the middle of the living room, because, hell, it looks cool and modern. His stuff is perfectly in keeping with the nature of the house.

*EDIT*
If this guy, who seems so LSE to me, actually is an ESE, then I could understand why my LII sister married an LSE. Also, why their marriage is Not Very Good and yet has lasted.
Also, if this guy is an ESE, then he must be the Si-subtype, because while he's friendly, I, with my Role Fe, am probably much more friendly-appearing than he is.

[The Reality Denialist]

It can be quite difficult to believe but LSE (having EIE as their super ego) seems far more casually dramatic than ESE (who most certainly has capability of being that even more). ESE is soothing even when they are always doing something. It seems to be quite big give away at least for me.

[Adam Strange]

It can be quite difficult to believe but LSE (having EIE as their super ego) seems far more casually dramatic than ESE (who most certainly has capability of being that even more). ESE is soothing even when they are always doing something. It seems to be quite big give away at least for me.

Good point. I don't find LSE's to be soothing at all. Kind of the opposite, in fact, and yet, this guy is extremely soothing. I thought that he was just a super-suppressed LSE or something, but, @Heretic 007, you make a very good argument for ESE.