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Thread: Enneagram type 4

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    Wholsesome 4ishness

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    ESI 4w3 all the themes are there, the 3s ''big cars and mansions'', dread and hate, jealousy and envy of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Pierre XO — Social 4w3 68

    i do agree with him being 4w3... even stereotypically so. though i think he's sx-first > social


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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    4w5

    Whoaa...!
    The first time in my 5 yrs of dim meandering in typology that I see someone not confuse 4w5 with 5w4. Me being a 4w3 social variant, I cannot help but doubt if she is social too. Social 4s, if I remember the definition correctly, usually postpone their artistic passion in favor of more intellectual pursuits, they do not hone the passion and that's also owed to shame. So I guess standing in front of such a crowd with minimal stage fright may make her an Sx/Sp 4w5??? In contrast, in spite of her visibly self-surrendering trait, which is a prerequisite of the 4, she is still very determined to let the art out as it is (less self-criticism). After some more digging, I reckon that's actually her genre: the current pop/indie mixed with her touch. And the problem with that is that it's got style over substance (repetitive patterns stacked over each other, simple lyrics, mostly one-way melody, the sadness of which is interrupted by hip-hop playfulness). So her heavy use of technological propping up for a lack of talent + conformity to a mainstream "sonic language" does lead back to social. She maybe a social 4w5 but in the 2nd position of her tritype (and possibly a 7+4 ENFP, similar to Eva Green). She's got some talent, apparently, in playing the keyboard + the technicalities of music production. Yet she's predominantly leaning towards the building-, production stage, instead of the more abstract, theoretical compositional stage. What this means is that the uplifting talk about "translation" and "conversion" is not entirely valid in her case. We don't emote in only one particular genre (-set of instruments, stock sound fx, singing style, etc).

    Edit:
    so after checking her channel it's clear that the "tormented artist" image (Western European meme) or persona that she adopts for her Tedx presentation was only just a one-off thing. Most of the time, however, she is this upbeat gangxta slampoetry rapping hip-hop woman with a noticeable flair of sadness to her character (but one that witch doesn't entirely take over the latter). She still has the superficiality, flakiness of the ENFPs/liberal extroverts: within the 16 minutes of her independent Ted presentation, she fails to answer the very question of her thesis: "How to translate feeling into sound?" (unless "splurging on a fortressful of synths and a DJ mixing deck to start with" was the answer). Her treatise on music semiotics is clearly a red herring, digression, prevarication, pretext only for her heart-wrenching performance (with the suggested message:"let us all extroverts buy some fruity music gear to helps us introvert (and stop perpetually traveling) like the Fi-doms naturally do, so as to be able to process our emotions, heal the lumps"), that which in turn is also a pretext for the advertisement of her supposedly soulful music.
    Last edited by Neokortex; 07-15-2019 at 01:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    The nature of fixation is that it repeats and repeats, it doesn't wake up to itself, even when we're deeply immersed in enneagram wisdom and have been working on or looking at this stuff for many years."
    Urghhh. That's some heavy.... heavy... void of karmic darkness. Oh my gaawwwd!
    Erhm, so anyways, where are you guys meet/join up to plot for blowing up the whole world?


    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    4 so/sx

    wut???
    LOL. DDDDD
    Last edited by Neokortex; 07-14-2019 at 11:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    So I guess standing in front of such a crowd with minimal stage fright may make her an Sx/Sp 4w5??? In contrast, in spite of her visibly self-surrendering trait, which is a prerequisite of the 4, she is still very determined to let the art out as it is (less self-criticism). (...) She maybe a social 4w5 but in the 2nd position of her tritype (and possibly a 7+4 ENFP, similar to Eva Green).


    i remember watching this video at some point and the way she presents herself & her life story seemed sx/so & sp-blindspot to me back then, but i haven't looked to deeply into it. i still think sx/so is the most likely stacking at this point, especially since she seems to be so comfortable with connecting to the audience/public (in the ted talk video).

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post


    i remember watching this video at some point and the way she presents herself & her life story seemed sx/so & sp-blindspot to me back then, but i haven't looked to deeply into it. i still think sx/so is the most likely stacking at this point, especially since she seems to be so comfortable with connecting to the audience/public (in the ted talk video).
    Heads-up: I've expanded a bit my comment on Claudio. I've seen her rapping here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO7ynbc90wQ and don't think she's sx/so. But I'm not ruling out 4w3... either that or her 7 preceding the 4 gives her a sparkly powa! that we know as the cheesiness of the ENFPs. There's actually a most-probably ENFP member on PerC who also does a lot of DJish music mixing (along with heavy social media publicization). My ex-short-term friend, retrospectively an ENFP, was also doing his hip-hop on computer and most of it was set up for live performance. Hence, I criticized him for overfocusing on the lyrics, instead of going "the classical" way about the song structure. On the other hand, Eva Green might be an Sx/So 9, as well as an ENTP. Thinking of the type of nudism she did in the Dreamers (2000), I think that's more... intimate (for a sexual fantasy) than a template a screenwriter would use to spice up an otherwise foreign movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post

    Karen McDougal - 4w5 so/sx (SEI-Fe?)


    Why is she a 4w5?

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    Quote Originally Posted by india View Post
    hes not a 4. 3w4 probably. he obviously thinks hes above everyone in how he comes across. hes so gross. not saying 3s are gross but he is. gives me a really weird vibe
    he wants the shine of being different and unique, its not like he is ashamed of being flawed and weird like a 4 is. hes very normal actually lol
    Well, someone thinking they're above everyone else is usually a way of hiding feelings of inferiority, whether they admit this or not. Coming across as "normal" can also be a way of covering up feelings of weirdness and alienation.


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    4w5 (sp/so?)



    Last edited by lynn; 09-28-2019 at 07:54 PM.

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    4w3 so/sp


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    tale of a sx 4w3


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    4w5


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    4w3


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    Tons of great music guys. Fiona Apple, The Smiths, The Cure, NIN, Mazzy Star. I'm seeing a lot here

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynn View Post
    4w5

    Looked at the stuff... hey, if there's even as much as an ounce of sadness in a music video... does that make it "special?" If one aspect of Enneagram 4 is present and expanded on in a movie... does that altogether make it an "Ennegram 4 themed movie?" Special has become the new ordinary. I just can't wait to see an American film done in the vein of Ingmar Bergman's Scenes from a Marriage (1973), that is, with realistic acting and plausible life drama. Indeed, there's plenty of So/Sx fantasy in what you posted and a lot of is similar to what my INTJ So/Sx 5w4 (w/ a 4?) old pal is binging on: Marvel/~like flix-wrapping of easily digestible (i.e. not nuanced) emotions/drama amped to the max (e.g. "Why did you do this to me Lokiiiii??!!! Whyyyyy???!!) by the Sx, their expression magnified by the fantasy/action scenarios ("I show my pain by tearing a whole building down!").1 Yet if you see only an aspect of a type because of flat characters written into the moneyshot script only, then how does that not distort the representation of the overall type?

    You have left one aspect of E4 out of consideration: the aspect that So/Sx 4s lack: elitism, snobbishness. It would be odd, wouldn't it, if these films and music videos criticized themselves for being not ordinary but supraordinary, schlock and parvenu (a self-criticism that made Charlie Kaufman's Adaptation relatable)? My intuition says their production was not lead by E4 people, neither are the actors (singers) such: the whole package tries too hard to fit into the mainstream... just thinking about that synthwave drone at the end of the Alias Grace trailer. And that the only expression of drama is the "all-American" (bread-and-circus) violence.

    Of course it does not need to be all aspects of 4 presented just one or two detailed and typical and neither does it need to be coming from haute couture aesthetic. Two examples.

    __________________________________________________ ___
    Footnote:
    I've actually debated this with him... from what he managed to get across, is that while these series have one or more so-called protagonists, the drama is revolving around a group. So even though in one of these series the lead role is of a modern day Lucifer in America, the poignant bit is not just his drama, him having fallen in love with a human, but mostly the quips, the exchanges between his friends and family. Apparently, as an So blind spot, I'm just too self-absorbed for that.
    Last edited by Neokortex; 10-25-2019 at 02:41 PM.
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    movement to 2

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    Good time for a change
    See, the luck I've had
    Can make a good man
    Turn bad

    So please please please
    Let me, let me, let me
    Let me get what I want
    This time

    Haven't had a dream in a long time
    See, the life I've had
    Can make a good man bad

    So for once in my life
    Let me get what I want
    Lord knows, it would be the first time
    Lord knows, it would be the first time

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    Last edited by lynn; 01-28-2020 at 08:12 PM.

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    One of the most accurate descriptions I've seen.


    The Four with a Three-Wing

    The traits of the Four are in some degree of conflict with the traits of the Three-wing: Fours are introverted, withdrawn, vulnerable and self-aware, whereas Threes are extroverted, popular, well defended, and lack self-awareness. The Four's search for self is in marked contrats to the Three's ability to project simulated images to others without regard to the real self. The Four's fear of exposing itself (in a sense, a fear of success) is the opposite of the Three's self-display and competitive desire for success. The Four's introverted self-consciousness contrasts with the Three's charm and other extroverted social skills.

    As conflicting as these two component types are, both are nevertheless concerned with self-esteem issues: the Four tends to have low self-esteem, the Three high self-esteem. Both opposing sets of traits can coexist in the same person, although uneasily. Noteworthy examples of the Four with a Three-wing include Tennessee Williams, Maria Callas, Rudolf Nureyev, Frederic Chopin, Marcel Proust, Martha Grahm, Paul Simon, Harold Pinter, Lawrence Olivier, Robert DeNiro, Walt Whitman, Albert Camus, E.M. Forster, Gustav Mahler, Peter Illich Tchaikovsky, Charles Ryder, and Blanche DuBois.

    Because of the Three-wing, healthy people of this subtype can be sociable, ambitious, and accomplished, particularly in the arts. The are in touch with who they are and who they are becoming, but with a more extroverted, energetic dimension to them. People of this subtype are also usually ambitious, physically attractive, and possess a certain social sense, which counterbalances the Four's tendency to withdraw from others. They are adaptable, sensitive to others, and have a good sense of humor.

    Average people of this subtype may be helped out of their self-absorption by a concern for what others think of them. Since people of this subtype have the ability to project a favorable image, they are able to conceal their real emotional condition more effectively than othe other subtype: others may not realize how vulnerable or emotionally troubled they may be. Fours with a Three-wing are competitive and interested in making something of themselves in the world, but they fear success, self-exposure, and possible humiliation. However, to the degree that the Three-wing is operative, this subtype also has narcissistic tendencies (exhibitionistic desires for their behavior. And, to the degree that their narcissistic needs are unfulfilled in reality, their desires for triumph can both play a part in their fantasy life and become a focal point for disappointments.

    Since unhealthy persons of this subtype are still fundamentally Fours, they take out their aggressions principally on themselves. The are self-inhibited and alienated from others, depressed, self-contemptuous, and so forth. However, to the degree that the Three-wing plays a part in the overall personality, there will be moments when they act like unhealthy Threes. People of this subtype can be hostile and malicious; their secret envy of others will be reinforced by the Three-wing's jealousy. Exploitativeness, opportunism, and duplicity may also be present, although these traits increase their shame and guilt if they should succumb to them. The vindictive malice which we find in Threes is rarely acted upon by this subtype. If it ever is, however, neurotics of this subtype will punish themselves even more severly than they inflict pain on anyone else. Crimes of passion and suicide are possible.

    The Four with a Five-Wing

    The traits of Fours and of Fives tend to reinforce each other. Both are withdrawn types: Fours withdraw to protect their feelings, Fives to protect their security. Fours with a Five-wing will be markedly more observant of the environment, particularly of other people. There is an intellectual depth and intensity here which is not found in the other subtype, but also a corresponding social insecurity. Noteworthy examples of the Four with a Five-wing include Virginia Woolf, Franz Kafka, Ingmar Bergman, Saul Steinberg, J.D. Salinger, Bob Dylan, Soren Kierkegaard, Hermann Hesse, William Blake, and Hamlet.

    Healthy, gifted individuals of this subtype are probably the most profoundly creative of all the types because they combine intuition with insight, emotional sensitivity with intellectual comprehension, frequently with stunningly original, even prophetic, results. Four with a Five-wing burn brighter than Fours with a Three-wing, but at the risk of burning themselves out faster.

    Average persons of this subtype are given not merely to self-absorption, but to philosophical and religious speculation. Their emotional world is the dominant reality, but with a strong intellectual cast. People of this subtype tend to be extreme loners, more lacking in social connectedness than the other subtype. Thus, their artisitic expressions more completely substitute for the person than in Fours with a Three-wing. These people also frequently have an otherworldly, ethereal quality about them; they are extremely independent and unconventional to the point of eccentricity. They also tend to be secretive, intesely preoccupied with their thoughts, and purposely enigmatic in their self-expressions. Their creative ideas may also be somewhat unsual, possibly even surreal. Members of this subtype care little for communicating with those who cannot understand them. Rather, they are interested in expressing their inner vision, whether sublime or terrifying, bleak or lyrical.

    Unhealthy persons of this subtype inhabit a particularly barren and terrifying inner world. There is a self-denying, even life-denying element of inner resistance to everything outside the self, throwing all of the Four's existential problems into sharper relief. Since Four is the fundamental personality type, fours with a Five-wing are assailed by self-doubt, depression, alienation from others, inhibitions in their work, and self-contempt. To the degree that the Five-wing plays a part in the overall personality, unhealthy fours of this subtype will also resist being helped by anyone, thus increasing their alienation from others. They also tend to project their fears into the environment, resulting in distorted thinking patters which may include elements of suspicion, paranoia, and phobias. Not only are people of this subtype subject to torment from their self-hatred, they can see very little that is positive outside themselves, and they become very pessimistic about the apparant meaninglessness of life. Of all the personality types, peopleof this subtype are potentially the most isolated from themselves and from reality. They are prone to the depressive forms of schizophrenia.

    (from: Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Don Richard Riso)

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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac View Post
    The Four with a Three-Wing

    Robert DeNiro

    The Four with a Five-Wing

    Hamlet.

    (from: Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Don Richard Riso)
    Groaaaaan. These are 6's. There are other wrong typings in there but these are the most painful.
    This is why I don't like these descriptions. Apart from personally relating to 99% of their 4 descriptions and maybe 50% to their 6, when I am a 6 in fact, their typings of people is just so off. The hyper 6-ish "To Be or Not To Be" of Hamlet is turned into a 4w5? Ouch. It just saddens me. They fucked up the public perception of 6's and 9's so much, and then proceeded to over-humanize 4 and make it too relatable to many who don't even have 4 in their Trifix. Hell, they even put the "fear of success" (6 <> 3 line) in the 4w3 descriptor...


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    ok

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    Unhealthy levels of four


    Level 7: The Alienated Depressive
    As we have just seen, self-indulgent Fours consider themselves exempt, free to live in a world of self-gratification. In time this creates a new source of anxiety: the fear that they may lose the possibility of attaining their hopes and dreams, especially their hope of self-actualization. Actualizing themselves is what Fours have always wanted, but if something happens to make them feel that that dream has been lost, they suddenly feel cut off from themselves. Something they have done or failed to do now comes home to roost, and suddenly they "spiral in" to some core of themselves, both in shock and to protect themselves from even more loss.
    Unhealthy Fours are angry at themselves for what they have done to themselves. They realize that they have wasted precious time, missed opportunities, and have fallen behind others in almost every way—personally, socially, and professionally—and they feel acutely ashamed. They envy others— everyone else seems to be happy, accomplished, and successful in the many ways in which Fours feel they are not. They see, much to their sorrow, that withdrawal into self-absorption has not turned out to be a way of finding themselves. Instead, things have gone wrong: they are wasting their lives, and they know it. They feel terribly confused and racked with self-doubt. They feel like failures—they have not accomplished anything worthwhile, and fear that they never will.
    Unhealthy Fours unconsciously inhibit themselves from having any kind of meaningful desires because they do not want to be hint any more, especially by having desires and expectations for themselves. The result is a sudden total blockage of all feelings, as if life had suddenly been drained from them. Whatever fulfillment they may once have found in their creative work, whatever hopes they may have had suddenly vanish. They instantaneously become fatigued, apathetic, alienated from themselves and others, sinking into emotional paralysis, barely able to function.
    Exerting themselves in any way is extraordinarily difficult. They cannot bring themselves to sit in front of an easel or a typewriter until their creative juices begin to flow again; nor can they call friends or go to a movie. Looking for work or finding a therapist is out of the question. They feel like staying in bed all day, and often do. Ironically, unhealthy Fours can no longer be self-indulgent even if they wanted to, because they simply cannot bring themselves to get involved with anything.
    As angry at themselves as they are, unhealthy Fours fear expressing their anger lest it make things worse. If they are angry at someone else—a romantic interest, for example—for disappointing their expectations, unhealthy Fours are so enraged that they cannot stand being in the same room with the former beloved, the object of such recent erotic obsessions. They are so angry that they hold themselves back from showing reactions of any kind, insofar as it is possible. (Others, however, can see that they look desolate, sigh deeply, and are close to tears.)
    Fours at this Level often feel that everyone has let them down. They are furious with their families, their friends, the world, and themselves, and view their problems as, if not insurmountable, certainly worse than everyone else's. Fours have always wanted to see themselves as unique, but unhealthy Fours can find uniqueness only in the degree of their suffering: they suffer more than anyone else. (It often comes as a humiliating shock to Fours in therapy or recovery to discover that others have suffered as much as they have, and in some cases even more.) However, the fact that others are also suffering does not discount the fact that unhealthy Fours really are in a great deal of pain and cannot find ways to express it or release it. Their anger and grief feel too vast to experience in their entirety, so Fours use whatever energy they have left to hold it back.
    Unhealthy Fours are still self-aware, and they realize that they are depressed and on the verge of becoming even more depressed. They know that only with the greatest difficulty will they be able to keep themselves from going under emotionally. An inner light is going out, one which they fear may never be rekindled. Everything seems to be futile and dying.

    Level 8: The Emotionally Tormented Person
    Depressed and alienated from themselves and others, unhealthy Fours go from bad to worse. They fear that because of their depression and inability to function, they are doomed. Their disappointment with themselves intensifies into a consuming self-hatred. Neurotic Fours turn against themselves with an absolutely withering self-contempt, seeing only the worst in themselves. They excoriate themselves about everything: the mistakes they have made, the time they have wasted, their unworthiness to be loved by anyone, their worthlessness as human beings. They are caught in the grip of obsessionally negative thoughts, and their relentless self-reproaches become a form of delusional thinking into which no ray of hope can intrude.
    Morbid fantasies become obsessions. They are convinced that they are outcasts in life, sacrificial victims, endlessly suffering for what their parents have done to them and what they have done to themselves. They feel pathetic, rightly rejected by everyone. They also feel guilty for existing: they have contributed nothing, and people would be better off without them. Their self-hatred is like an electron accelerator whipping incidents of virtually no significance into formidable forces, smashing them into what little self-esteem remains. Not only are unhealthy Fours convinced that they are utterly and permanently defective, they are also convinced that others regard them as contemptuously as they regard themselves. They have absolutely no self-confidence, and no reason to hope that they will ever be able to acquire any. A chasm of inner darkness has opened inside them, like a black hole draining whatever life they have.
    They are extremely distraught, yet unable to shake themselves free of the self-accusations and feelings of hopelessness plaguing them. They may sit alone for hours, barely breathing and yet violently tormented. They may burst into tears and uncontrollable sobbing, then retreat once again into silence and intense inner suffering.
    They sabotage themselves in various ways, wrecking what few opportunities remain for them and hurling irrational accusations at their remaining friends and supporters. They still hope that someone will see their plight and rescue them, that the "good parent" may still appear, but that hope seems increasingly remote and eventually becomes another source of self-torture. If there has been drug or alcohol abuse it is rapidly escalated. Their fantasies, such as they are, become morbid and death-obsessed. Everything becomes a source of torment to them: the whole of life becomes an unbearable reminder of their alienation from it. If they were once artists, their unfinished work mocks them; if they were once in love with someone, their failure in love mocks them; if they once had a family or a job, their failures there mock them as well.
    Unfortunately, some of their self-accusations may have a basis in fact. Because of their self-absorption and self-indulgence, Fours may have missed many opportunities to do something positive with their lives. To some extent, they are responsible for bringing their anguish upon themselves, and they know it—which is why their self-accusations cut so deeply. But rather than truly expiate guilt by punishing themselves, their self-hatred only destroys whatever inner resources they still possess. The only way out is to do away with their tormented consciousness altogether.

    Level 9: The Self-Destructive Person
    If conditions do not change for the better, their despair becomes so deep that neurotic Fours will attempt to destroy themselves, one way or another. When they become hopeless, what remains to be seen is the form their despair will take—whether they will kill themselves directly or indirectly, through drugs or alcohol or some other means.
    It is difficult for other personality types to understand that because of their self-hatred, neurotic Fours feel cut off from life itself. Everything in the world—everything positive, beautiful, good, and worth living for—has become a rebuke to them, and they cannot bear the thought of living that way for the rest of their lives. They must do something to escape from their crushingly negative self-consciousness. In essence, neurotic Fours must rid themselves of themselves, since they feel defeated by life and see no way of coming to life again.
    While suicide attempts as a way of eliciting help are possible, many neurotic Fours believe that they are utterly hopeless, and so intend to have their suicide work. Despairing Fours may embrace death as the final solution to the ongoing problems of their lives. Death is a welcome chance to leave their sorrows, a hoped-for annihilation of their painful self-consciousness.
    Suicide is not only a way of escaping from their intense mental suffering, it is a rebuke to others for not helping them enough, for not understanding their needs, for not caring about them. From the Four's point of view, others' lack of love and understanding has driven them to take their own life. Suicide is the ultimate act of withdrawal, an aggressive act by which Fours inflict suffering on others without having to be aggressive, or guilty, or responsible.
    Although Fours are far more likely to destroy themselves, in their emotional torment they are also capable of murdering the people they feel are responsible for mining their lives. If a major disappointment in love played a role in the Four's descent, their jealousy may overwhelm them, causing them to impulsively commit a crime of passion, killing the object of their unrequited love before taking their own lives.
    Suicide also holds another attraction: it is the one thing in life over which despairing Fours still feel they have any control. By contemplating suicide, they feel that they remain the masters of something, even if it is only the possibility of saying no to life, of refusing to go on being tormented. The mere thought that, if they wished, they could put an end to themselves is a source of comfort.
    Before they have reached this stage, Fours have doubtless thought about suicide many times. The danger is that the more they think about it, the more they may become infatuated with death as a solution to their problems. When they are in despair, having rehearsed suicide so often in their imaginations, they may act without any more consideration or warning to others.

    (Also from Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Don Richard Riso)

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    This is archetypal 6, straight up. Not at all close to 4:
    Don Richard Riso is wrong.


    To be, or not to be, that is the question:
    Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
    And by opposing end them. To die—to sleep,
    No more; and by a sleep to say we end
    The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
    That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
    Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
    To sleep, perchance to dream—ay, there's the rub:
    For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
    When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
    Must give us pause—there's the respect
    That makes calamity of so long life.
    For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
    Th'oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
    The pangs of dispriz'd love, the law's delay,
    The insolence of office, and the spurns
    That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,
    When he himself might his quietus make
    With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
    To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
    But that the dread of something after death,
    The undiscovere'd country, from whose bourn
    No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
    And makes us rather bear those ills we have
    Than fly to others that we know not of?
    Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
    And thus the native hue of resolution
    Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
    And enterprises of great pitch and moment
    With this regard their currents turn awry
    And lose the name of action.

    BY WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE
    (from Hamlet, spoken by Hamlet)

    I intended to highlight which of it is 6, but I ended up putting every line in bold. It is all 6.


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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac View Post
    ok
    I strongly disagree that this is "ok." Fear of success and all that jazz is straight up 6 and you think this makes for the most accurate descriptions for 4? I know that you have seen better than this. Riso came up with some clever stuff, especially the health levels in cooperation with Hudson, but their authority on type 4 is abysmal.


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    sp/sx


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    "The Four blames the object of her desire, finding flaws and imperfections that justify the lack of fulfillment, and the object is pushed away. Or once a desired object has been obtained, the Four’s focus moves on to what else is not right in her life or what else needs to be acquired. Unsatisfied, ungratified, and displeased, nothing is ever quite right to a Four. What she has or procures always loses its shine, and the longing shifts to what is just out of reach. Things could always be a little different, a little better, more of this or of that, and then perhaps, just perhaps, she could be happy at last. But happiness for a Four is ephemeral, something inevitably spoils it, and the longing for fulfillment begins again. This pattern belies the professed desire for happiness, and we see that beneath the surface what the Four really wants is to maintain her identity as someone who longs and does not get."

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    4w5


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    The ennea-type IV syndrome has been recognized since early in the history of psychiatry, as we can observe reading Kurt Schneider’s volume on psychopathic as we can observe reading Kurt Schneider’s volume on psychopathic personalities. Summarizing German publications of before his time, he quotes, for instance, the following observation on the “depressive psychopath”: “At bottom he refuses life and still surrounds it by a sort of unrequited love. Frequently, too, we see him develop a tendency toward vanity, a comparison with those who are contented and happy, the awareness of simplicity, even of the excessive simplicity that often characterize these brings the sufferers to deem suffering as something noble and themselves as aristocratic … Others see in suffering a merit which is no different from their tendency to reflect and to brood … Not rarely one finds that in the environment and way of living there is an aesthetic preoccupation that can convey arrogance and dissimulates an inner despondency. Other depressives are rather in a bad mood, are cold and selfish, grumbling and embittered, irritable and critical, cruel and ill intentioned. They are pessimists in the face of everything and also in the face of their own they almost cheer up when they meet new failures. Neither do they desire anything good for others.” Such character has been designated by Kraepelin as “irritable predisposition” and by Bleuler under “irritable dysthymia,” designations that also correspond to the eternally discontented and the resentful of Aschaffenburg.
    (Naranjo, Character and neurosis)

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    this is by Tom Condon, I decided to go through them and put in bold the things I relate to. to test the accuracy but mostly because im bored.

    Self-Preservation Fours
    • Self-Preservation Fours are often risk takers
    • They take chances to stir up emotional intensity, collect new experiences, play outinner dramas or learn about themselves
    • Open advocates of the passionate life
    • Social and artistic courage; the high side of this subtype brings daring
    • Healthy Fours with this subtype often feel driven to express an inner vision and findthe courage and skill to bring it into the world
    • Often exceedingly practical in ways that support their creative enterprises
    • For some their home is an aesthetically soothing refuge, for others home is dank and depressing, prompting fantasies of beautiful places, a stimulant to envy
    • May have possessions they keep for a long time that are charged with symbolism and meaning
    • Environmentally sensitive react strongly to their surroundings; fussy and hard to please about new purchases
    • When less healthy, they take self-destructive risks or punish other by hurting themselves
    • Some can be reckless and openly court disaster while others merely flirt with loss
    • Sometimes the connection to One is extra strong. Fours with this subtype can harangue themselves in a Oneish way and then rebel with reckless behavior
    Some resist the need to make a living; may hobble themselves with mystery ailments that prevent them from having a “straight job”
    • Self-Preservation Fours can be mistaken for counterphobic Sixes
    • Some Fours with this subtype struggle with their weight and body image as they relate to identity. Anorexia, overeating or obsessions about food are possible


    Intimate Fours
    • Intimate Fours love others in a deep way, and possess a sensitive, complex, poetic intelligence about matters of the heart
    • This is a highly romantic subtype, visible in the realms of romantic poetry, the troubadour tradition and popular music about love, especially in the lyrics of confessional singers
    • Often stay friends with ex-lovers
    • A focus on aesthetics; some Intimate Fours are tasteful, flashy dressers
    • Can harbor afantasy of perfect union, a redemptive love that will heal the wound of being an unwanted outsider
    • Prone to jealousy and may be competitive in close relationships as well as generally; can feel like there is only so much love to go around
    • Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner has ever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships
    • A stronger connection to Two
    • May be surprised to discover that their beloved has different needs; they assume mutuality of purpose and are unprepared to negotiate
    • Also prone to professional envy and try to best others at work
    • May be unable to enjoy their successes without demeaning the achievements ofothers
    • Intimate Fours can resemble Eights just as romantic Intimate Eights can resemble Fours
    • Can believe that without someone to love they are nothing and life is not worth living
    • When in love, images of their partner fill the Four’s awareness and attention. The beloved is a muse, necessary to connect Fours to their own life force
    • May take no responsibility for their life until Mr. or Ms. Right comes along
    • There can be a willful immaturity to this stance, a stubborn refusal to face facts no matter what the practical costs
    • Can be love addicts who lack the memory of being loved and believe they are condemned to search the world for something or someone to fill them up
    • Some Intimate Fours act markedly seductive to stave off being rejected
    • May engineer rejection by picking unavailable or inappropriate people to become infatuated with
    • A few have ambiguous, confused or exaggerated sexual identities or a chronic identity
    crisis around their sexuality


    Social Fours
    • Healthy Social Fours are unusually independent, self-affirming and socially courageous
    • Willing to take unpopular stands, initiate innovative projects or create institutions thathave humanistic or artistic purposes
    • They make good teachers especially of art, poetry, spirituality, realms of the heart andthe inner life
    • Can be idealistic, drawn to social causes, with a keen sense of justice. The connection to One is especially strong with this subtype - lately yea
    • May play the role of the critical outsider, dissatisfied with the norm

    • Prone to shame because they compare themselves with the “normal” world around them, for deviating from imagined group norms
    • Highly self-critical although their critical voice often belongs to someone else
    • To refute the voice’s criticisms, a Social Four may romanticize her defects or snobbishly counter-criticize the group
    • May seek status or feel driven to achieve to get revenge against those who once laughed at them
    • Cover their shame with charm
    • Social Fours with a Five wing can grow antisocial and depressed, bearing their shame
    in solitude, in tension to a group that they keep at a distance


    Four with a Three Wing
    • Fours with a Three wing can seem like Sevens. Can be cheerful, outgoing, with asense of humor and style
    • May be “counter depressive,” in that they stay busy and on-task to avoid getting bogged down in melancholy
    • Healthy Fours with this wing marry art and commerce; they are both creative and effective, intuitive and ambitious
    Generally more visual and kinesthetic and have a faster tempo of thought, speech and reaction
    • Often materialistic, can have elegant or expensive taste; could prize the rare
    Might dress flashy – albeit in a color coordinated way – in contrast to Fours with a Five wing, who try to be socially invisible - so so, I dress a bit different but wouldn't call it flashy. when I was a kid though definitely.
    • Can be conscious of wearing a mask to hide their “true” deformed identity
    • Some are Three “wannabes”; they imitate Threes to pass in the “normal” world as high-functioning and well-adjusted citizens; underneath they feel like ETs
    • Can be exceptionally competitive, sometimes more so than Threes
    Their pleasure in their own achievements may be tainted by jealousy or motivated by revenge
    • When recognized for what they accomplish, they may feel celebrated for the wrong reasons or dismiss the recognition as not enough
    • Fours with this wing can tend towards melodrama and flamboyance
    • Get lost in fraudulence, play the role of the artist or the authentic, unique one
    • Generally more conventional and less original than Fours with a Five wing - ​how would I know?
    • May have bad taste but not know it - probably lol


    Four with a Five Wing
    • Fours with a Five wing are generally more introverted
    • When healthy they have a rich, complex creativity
    • Although somewhat intellectual, they have exceptional depth of feeling and insight

    • May be multi-talented in ways that they take for granted
    • Fours with this wing are often more original and idiosyncratic, unique to the point of eccentric
    • Use thinking to suppress or dissociate from their feelings
    • Often they are more auditory and kinesthetic and less consciously visual
    • They have a spiritual and aesthetic openness and may also have a marked need to pour themselves into creative or artistic pursuits
    • Try to use the strength of their minds to manage their emotional intensity
    • Some are loners who can seem enigmatic or hard to read
    Externally reserved and internally resonant; when absorbed in a mood they can sit still and expressionless for long periods of time (hypnotic catalepsy)
    • An “open or closed” quality; after suddenly breaking hours of silence, the Four won’t stop talking
    • Fours with this wing will sometimes polarize against their own Three wing, making Threeness a shadow that they indict in others
    • Could see the world as dominated by trashy, materialistic values and pointless hyperactivity – things the Four secretly envies
    • Some are nondescript and try to be invisible. Consciously decide to venture into the world
    • Some are sedentary and, if not overweight, have no muscle tone
    • Especially prone to feeling alienated and depressed; could isolate themselves
    • More likely to argue for their limitations or prove they can’t function in the normal world
    • Might ignore practical matters or unpleasant but necessary chores, citing the strength of their feelings as an excuse
    • Can be whiny or have an air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment
    • Prone to sulking and stubborn, passive-aggressive sadness; unusually humorless
    Can inhabit a private world of pain and loss or be morbidly in love with death
    • Might have a well-developed eye for the grotesque and the gothic
    • Like Sixes they can fear taking action; some complain of having little energy

    Four’s Connection to One
    • A healthy connection to One helps Fours locate and connect to the objective, factual world, independent of their inner feelings
    • Helps Fours balance the intensity of their feelings. They think more rationally and keep things in perspective
    • The connection to One brings discipline and diminishes a Four’s self- indulgence
    • Brings problem-solving skills and an unexpected practical streak: Fours can betalented at managing money and handling realistic details
    • Oneish Fours tend to be idealistic and work hard for what they believe in; morally courageous expressions of principle - moving to this direction but not there yet.
    • Contributors rather than complainers, committed to living in and improving an imperfect world
    • When Fours are less healthy the connection to One devolves into being critical, fault finding and nit-picky
    • After the perfect union of falling in love the Four can turn critical and disapproving, focusing only on what is missing in his partner’s behavior
    • May have idealized, romantic dreams for which there are no partners or expect somuch of partners that they drive them away
    • Self-critical; may criticize themselves in a Oneish voice that speaks only of their Four’s flaws, reinforcing their sense of alienated difference
    • Oneish Fours can block themselves creatively or set themselves up to fail because nothing they produce is up to their own impossibly high standards
    • May criticize and tear down others, mainly out of jealousy
    • Sometimes latch onto a grandiose, obsessive Big Idea or believe they are attuned to Absolute Truth
    • Idealistic and artistic pretentiousness are possible; could feel they inhabit a lofty plane where their endeavors and aspirations can not be understood by mortals – The Great Artist Blues
    • Black and white thinking with a moral cast
    • Self-punitive and pleasure hating, fanaticism and religiosity are possible


    Four’s Connection to Two
    • Fours have a built-in connection to Two. When healthy it brings interpersonal skills and the ability to voluntarily empathize with others
    • Like Twos, Fours can float over and switch places with others and intuitively sensehow they feel. The Four will then filter and interpret other people’s feelings through the Four’s own subjectivity
    • Twoish Fours can be supportive, generous “foul weather” friends who understand and accept the pain of others
    • May volunteer their services to ease suffering
    • Act upon ideals, want to make the world a better place - lately ya kinda
    • The connection to Two brings the ability to teach or mentor, especially about subjective matters. Can accurately read the nonverbal behavior of others
    • When this connection is less healthy, a Four may compulsively merge with others, especially their pain, as it unconsciously reminds the Four of their own
    • May flatter, charm and placate, hoping to mask their sense of defect
    • Twoish Fours are prone to moody instability; by turns needy and then aggressive
    • Can put great demands on their relationships and be easily disappointed
    • Twoish Fours may flee themselves through codependent service to others
    • The Four sense of specialness is intensified by Twoish pride
    • Loud arguments and histrionic dramas are possible
    • Psychosomatic illness and age regression (becoming younger than your years) are stronger tendencies
    Last edited by maniac; 06-03-2020 at 02:04 PM.

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