Return To Simpler Times

[AWellArmedCat]

I've changed my flair back for now

[welcometomania]

Hi OP! ^^

If I were you, honestly I would trust what your aunt typed for.. because I'm sure she knows you better than any of us here haha

I tend to find the Process/Result dichotomy to be the most helpful actually, simply because it seems to be the most extensively studied atm. Although I will say that Gulenko, in the translated article here: (https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ects#Groupings), seemed to wildly suggest that Result types are almost stress-free as opposed to Process types, when environmental and cultural factors play much more significant roles than being a certain sociotype themself

Btw you also seem to fit more with being Ethical & Process.. (can't roll my eyes hard enough though at Gulenko grossly generalising these types as being the 'most feminine' ¬_¬ )

[AWellArmedCat]

@rhdn Thanks for the input! Yeah, I really have no idea to be honest lol I find it difficult to settle on one thing when there's a lack of unanimity so even just in the few minutes since I posted that I've been hemming and hawing over whether or not I actually agree with what I said. I do sorta feel though that a lot of it comes down to how much credence is given to Gulenko's ideas. It seems like most of the reasons for considering me EIE rather than IEI stem from his theories rather than from classic Socionics. Not that that's bad though. I just wonder if it's perhaps not so strange that his theories would type people somewhat differently from what classic Socionics might suggest

[welcometomania]

@rhdn Thanks for the input! Yeah, I really have no idea to be honest lol I find it difficult to settle on one thing when there's a lack of unanimity so even just in the few minutes since I posted that I've been hemming and hawing over whether or not I actually agree with what I said.

sounds a bit like Ne-demo..

but yeah always, take your time.. it's just socionics really.. nothing too important haha

[welcometomania]

@rhdn I do sorta feel though that a lot of it comes down to how much credence is given to Gulenko's ideas. It seems like most of the reasons for considering me EIE rather than IEI stem from his theories rather than from classic Socionics. Not that that's bad though. I just wonder if it's perhaps not so strange that his theories would type people somewhat differently from what classic Socionics might suggest

I think he does deserve a lot of credits (though I highly doubt it's solely him coming up with these theories) but when it comes to actual typing of people, tbh he should just leave it to ethical types because imo we're just better at doing it.. for obvious 'social' reasons

Though I do believe he can type some people very accurately, like probably most people that share similar culture with him (Eastern Europeans (?) )

[godslave]

Hypotheses


This dichotomy is based on the features of placement and distribution of attention as a mental function. It is possible that Process types have have a greater level of stability and concentration of attention (ability to focus on a single topic for prolonged period of time, even in presence of distractions). Result types show an ability to "distribute" their attention (to simultaneously pay attention to multiple topics) and to "shift" their attention from one topic or activity to another.


Examples


Right/process: "Finishing something is not easy, it is also not easy to start something, but the most difficult thing is to return to the middle of something I've abandoned long time ago" "I read the book to the end of the chapter and a several pages into the next chapter... the thought of something coming to an end is frightening." "God forbid that I start a game of solitaire, I will "hang" with it for a long time (regarding a computer game)" "It is difficult to force myself to undertake a task, but afterwards it just rolls forward by itself."


Left/result: "The matter at hand must be known. If estimations are not final, they must at least be intermediate." "It is very interesting for me to start or complete a matter... I like visualizing a finished project or task." "The most horrible thing is when something just won't end." "I feel like a juggler; in my hands—several activities (processes). I am aware of two points—the beginning and the end." "Why can't you simultaneously listen and eat?"

https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ess_and_result

I'll take myself as an example. I relate to the bold parts. Yesterday, I was sure that I was a Result type, today I think that I might be a process type, just like last week, and the circle goes on and on. It's simple, I can relate to anything, I find a part of myself in some bullet points of each side of the dichotomy. For instance, I began to play Ocarina of Time like 20 years ago. I still didn't finish it and I love Zelda ! The problem is that I play it a for about a week (few hours a day) every six or seven years. Each time I start from the point of saving after a long period, I have some difficulties to remember where I was in the story. It's not like a book where you can go back several pages to re-contextualize where you are in the story so I had to replay Ocarina of time from the start several times. It has been about five years that I didn't play it but this time I kinda remember where I was more or less. I'm considering to play it soon, although I was planning that my next game would be Suikoden 2, a plan that is waiting for its fulfilment since I have decided it like eight or nine years ago after I finished Suikoden 1. Why didn't I finish Ocarina of Time and played and finished other games meanwhile ? I don't know, it's not because of any difficulties in the game that's for sure, I'm a good player. Anyways, I digress.


Am I a process type thought ? I have a high level of focus when I'm interested in something, to the point of losing track of time (like writing this post, I'm working on it for about... four hours now ?! OMG !). Now is that a process trait or is it a manifestation of some kind of ADHD ? You see my point ? It seems like one have to check all the boxes without any contradiction to get to a correct typing, that's impossible ! It's not like in the DSM where you have to check like 4 out of 7 boxes or 5 out of 9 boxes to get to a diagnosis. How does Dr.G works around that reality ? By coming up with his DCNH system. When you add to all that the signs of the functions you either see a mess or a direct straight line to a correct type diagnosis but again, there is no consensus about the signs of the functions. So we find ourselves submerged with correlates instead of real markers. What we need is a consensual methodology, a mean by which any socionist will deliver a correct typing regardless of the socionics school he or she came from. It doesn't make sense that one one person gets let's say IEI by one socionist and IEE by another, that's not serious ! One is negativist the other is positivist, one is extravert the other is introvert, one is static the other is dynamic etc.. That tells a lot about Reinin's dichotomies !



The problem with Reinin Dichotomies is that they are just that dichotomies. Where do we cut ? Some people (me included) often find themselves in situations where the dichotomies don't click as they should. "Either or" is significant only when the data point are sufficient, like sample rate in analog to digital audio conversion to get a high definition image of the type and that's not the case with Reinin's Dichotomies. So it often happen that people find themselves stuck in between certain dichotomies because they see them like a spectrum or a conditional/ "it depends" thing. That's true even with some Dr. G material. [btw, he changed his views or developed his ideas to the point of transformation over the time so we better be kept up to date with his materials and consider his past articles esp from the 90's as obsolete]. For instance one can find oneself in a situation where she or he relates with traits like [Positivist - Process - Dynamic] or [Negativist - Result - Dynamic] which don't make sense according to the theory in this particular case the formation of a given Form of cognition. So it can be very difficult to have a holistic and well defined picture of ourselves to self-type esp if we get confused by reading and take for granted all the source material of different socionics sources written in different period of time, sometimes decades apparts.


Anyways, I think you're an Fe valuer, your mind seem faster i.e. more quick and articulated than an IEI regardless of the subtype, I know that's not an argument but it kinda is to me don't ask me why ! For what it's worth, I like you, I like your energy, I know that's not an argument but it kinda.. you get the picture ! You seem relax and kinda flexible I mean your movements are not stiff which is a sign of irrationality along with your wide hands movements and agitation. However, there a lot of signs of extraversion, for instance the way you presented yourself at the beginning of the video, the importance you give to others opinion ( you literally ask for Ti !). I would say that Ti is in your Super-ID block for sure and because you are not confident in it the way it should be if Ti was your mobilizing function, I would say that it's suggestive. So why do you feel like an introvert and not relate with the EJ temperament ? Well, that can be explained by your subtype. (Yes I'm literally imitating Dr. G ! Ahaha !) I think you have trait of C and H so I would say EIE-Ni CH (??). Note that I didn't see evident signs of Se it's very hidden. For the record I can't seriously type with such a little material and informations, not that it would be any different with a lot of informations, my typing skills are not that sharp..

P.S. Please excuse the rambling !

[nifl]

there's no question about you being intuitive, ethical, irrational
but i'm not certain in IEI, although it is more likely
IEE is still a significant possibility to me - best way to figure it out is by intertypes, if you're unsure
EIE is impossible, still

[EUDAEMONIUM]

You appear more irrational rather than rational. If EIE then C sub, IEE is not a crazy typing at all. But if I remember right, you are a teacher used to speaking in front of a group of people. You are a foreigner living outside of your country. This sort of thing would help condition those extraverted ethical (and extroverted in general) functions to a higher degree than another IEI who rarely leaves their hometown.

I think you are IEI, IEI-C seems to work fine.

Also, imo you definitely need to make a public channel. Your aesthetic and speaking ability would be good for anything. I mean, it doesn't even need to be socioncs, you could just do a lifestyle yt channel about living in Japan and get views.

[AWellArmedCat]

sounds a bit like Ne-demo..

I definitely relate to being disoriented by too much Ne, and have always preferred to eliminate possibilities rather than expand them. Then again in group projects in school I tended to be the primary or one of the primary idea generating people when it came to the early stages of our projects. I just don't like to spend too long in that phase. I start getting antsy and wanting to narrow things down once we've got a selection that feels big enough and would get pretty irritated with people who didn't seem to want to move past that. Really, I tend to think that eliminating possibilities is one of the best ways to go about pretty much anything from test taking to deciding what to eat when out with a group of friends. So yeah, Ne-demo seems very plausible lol

but yeah always, take your time.. it's just socionics really.. nothing too important haha

I appreciate the chill vibes lol It will probably be some time before I really settle. As I alluded to on another post a few minutes ago, I tend to think there's more than one valid way to approach Socionics. Much in the same way that I wouldn't say that Socionics is right while MBTI is wrong (though Socionics I think is far more deeper and more useful), I am inclined to think that there aren't right or wrong interpretations of Socionics so much as there are more and less interesting/useful ones. All personality models based in Jung seem to agree that I must be an NF (even MBTI), but diverge from there. I suppose now I'm sort of attempting to tease out the model of Socionics I prefer to use, and once I've figured that out I'll be more easily able to type myself. I think everyone giving suggestions as to my type has very good reasons for thinking I am IEI, EIE, or IEE respectively. I'm just not sure as to which interpretation I prefer.

[on a peaceful hiatus]

Ne is kinda too tempted by alternatives. Like I studied japanese for a while 6 or so years ago but then just dropped it to do something that seemed more interesting at that time.Ni feels more like committing to a decision, and once you made that commitment, you are unlikely to change course. I studied socionics for 7 years now, but I could easily see myself switching to a different topic and start as a beginner again if I feel like it. Ni is about achieving certain things, while Ne is about satisfying curiousity without considering pragmatism

[AWellArmedCat]

What we need is a consensual methodology, a mean by which any socionist will deliver a correct typing regardless of the socionics school he or she came from. It doesn't make sense that one one person gets let's say IEI by one socionist and IEE by another

I agree! A standardized methodology would clear up the vast majority of disagreements about people's type. I think if we could all be much more certain of ours and others' types that would also allow us to more effectively study things like intertype relationships independently

Anyways, I think you're an Fe valuer, your mind seem faster i.e. more quick and articulated than an IEI regardless of the subtype, I know that's not an argument but it kinda is to me don't ask me why ! For what it's worth, I like you, I like your energy, I know that's not an argument but it kinda.. you get the picture ! You seem relax and kinda flexible I mean your movements are not stiff which is a sign of irrationality along with your wide hands movements and agitation. However, there a lot of signs of extraversion, for instance the way you presented yourself at the beginning of the video, the importance you give to others opinion ( you literally ask for Ti !). I would say that Ti is in your Super-ID block for sure and because you are not confident in it the way it should be if Ti was your mobilizing function, I would say that it's suggestive. So why do you feel like an introvert and not relate with the EJ temperament ? Well, that can be explained by your subtype. (Yes I'm literally imitating Dr. G ! Ahaha !) I think you have trait of C and H so I would say EIE-Ni CH (??). Note that I didn't see evident signs of Se it's very hidden.

I definitely love when others feed me Ti lol Posts like this one are awesome, so don't worry about rambling. Hearing other people's thoughts really helps me formulate my own. I suppose that's an extroverted thing to say! As for not relating to EJ temperament, subtype explaining that could definitely make sense. I have a weird internal balance when it comes to my social energy levels too. Like when I'm "on" I can seem very extroverted (in the popular sense of the word) to people, but resetting is very essential for me, and there are days when I'm just feeling moody and really protective of my alone time. I have an ESFp friend who's always trying to get me to do these multiple day parties which I just can't handle. Like he'll want to go out drinking on Friday, crash at someone's house, then wake up on Saturday to hangout all day long, then go clubbing Saturday night, crash again, wake up and idle away Sunday nursing the hangover and watching movies. To me, this doesn't sound fun at all, and feels incredibly unproductive. I have too much of a drive to be creative and draw or study Japanese to waste so much time. I also just wouldn't have the energy for that. When the night ends, I really want to be alone. I don't want to wake up to more socializing unless it's with someone like my EII friend who I barely even notice is in my house half the time

I'm getting rambly too, but thank you so much for the extensive reply!

[AWellArmedCat]

there's no question about you being intuitive, ethical, irrational
but i'm not certain in IEI, although it is more likely
IEE is still a significant possibility to me - best way to figure it out is by intertypes, if you're unsure
EIE is impossible, still

I certainly still haven't thrown out IEE as a possibility, but IEI feels like it makes way more sense as far as intertypes go. I pretty consistently struggle to get along with LSEs, and while I get along great with my SLI aunt, she feels more like the exception than the norm (and she's been considering lately that she could be mistyped). I'll keep thinking about it for sure, but for now I'll stay flaired as IEI if only because it'd feel wrong to change it so soon after starting this thread lol

[AWellArmedCat]

But if I remember right, you are a teacher used to speaking in front of a group of people. You are a foreigner living outside of your country. This sort of thing would help condition those extraverted ethical (and extroverted in general) functions to a higher degree than another IEI who rarely leaves their hometown.

That's all correct! I also semi-regularly interpret at events where there are a large number of both Japanese and foreigners present. Most recently it was for two field trips (one for elementary and one for middle schoolers) onto the US military base. That was interesting because I didn't know a lot of the specific Japanese terminology about fighter jets for example, but had to explain the basic physics of their operation. I'm very used to getting thrown into the deep end and figuring things out. When I was in theatre as a kid I was one of the actors considered to be decent at improv. I had a few classmates I loved to perform completely improvised skits with because I felt I knew what kinds of things to throw at them to elicit that would lead to hilarity.

It's worth bearing in mind though that I only ended up doing most things because my ESE mom is constantly on the lookout for interesting things for my siblings and I to do. She loves nothing more than to find cool things and encourage us day after day to pursue them, and I really owe a lot of my experiences to that encouragement. By now I search out and do things for myself, but I don't know that I would have if my mom hadn't opened me up to so much. I was always shy and reserved as a kid

Also, imo you definitely need to make a public channel. Your aesthetic and speaking ability would be good for anything. I mean, it doesn't even need to be socioncs, you could just do a lifestyle yt channel about living in Japan and get views.

Aww thanks! Funny thing is that I already have a public channel lol I just haven't shared it here because people would learn my real name very quickly there, but then again I'm not sure I really care that much at this point. I also have a few very nosy, conservative, Christian family members who I wouldn't want finding my 16types username since I speak very freely on here. I don't have that many things posted on my other channel anyways, but I've posted let's plays of Stray (the cyberpunk cat game), my attempt at a few vocal and guitar covers, some old school projects, and a bit of Japan exploration stuff. I've thought about starting a third channel with a brand new alias a few times, but we'll see.

I won't say who, but a user or two on here already know my real name and thus could find my channel pretty easily. To those people, feel free. It's literally just my real name followed by my name again but in katakana. To everyone else, maybe if you're really super nice to me for long enough I'll share it with you too lol (personally I don't think it'd be worth your time though )

[AWellArmedCat]

Ne is kinda too tempted by alternatives. Like I studied japanese for a while 6 or so years ago but then just dropped it to do something that seemed more interesting at that time.Ni feels more like committing to a decision, and once you made that commitment, you are unlikely to change course. I studied socionics for 7 years now, but I could easily see myself switching to a different topic and start as a beginner again if I feel like it. Ni is about achieving certain things, while Ne is about satisfying curiousity without considering pragmatism

I can certainly get distracted by alternatives sometimes, but I tend to settle on something sooner or later. Most recently I've been interested in learning another language because I feel like my Japanese is good enough that I'm not gonna get confused or lose any ability in it even if I stopped speaking it for awhile. The question has just been which language. I've been going back and forth for awhile and messing around in Duolingo just to see what sparks interest. I think I may be settling on Hindustani/Urdu/Hindi though. I have a few students who are from Pakistan and thus speak Urdu, so it makes sense to learn their language. Additionally Bollywood films are usually in a very neutral dialect that doesn't lean too heavily into Urdu or Hindi, so I could use those movies as a nearly unexhaustive resource. I feel I don't know a lot about the culture or politics of Pakistan and India either, so learning one of the main languages of the area seems like a good way to do that. It would also give me access to an Arabic and Sanskrit script which would make future adventures into other languages that use those a bit easier. Also like half a billion people speak some variety of Hindustani, so I'd have plenty of people to talk to lol

[on a peaceful hiatus]

@AWellArmedCat PewDiePie recently moved to Japan. I think he's an EIE-C. maybe this video is worth watching for you

[AWellArmedCat]

@AWellArmedCat PewDiePie recently moved to Japan. I think he's an EIE-C. maybe this video is worth watching for you

Lol I actually already saw it! It felt so surreal. Like is now just the time to move to Japan or something?

Oh and yeah, I think EIE could definitely make sense for him. I don't feel I know DCNH well enough to have picked out a subtype, but C sounds reasonable

[Hope]

I just want to say no IEE for you. Beta seems ok, and you remind me a lot of a LSI-Ti from highschool.

[The Reality Denialist]

Very similar tone compared to her https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVZxe9KgjEI

[Renna]

Positivist. IEI for sure.

[The Reality Denialist]

Many times process types deny process orientation because they can be self critical. Which sort of fits in.
In your previous vid you talked about stuff that sounded vortical synergistic themes. You used that paradoxically to change self typing. Lol.

So yeah. Good fit for IEI-C.

[AWellArmedCat]

Very similar tone compared to her https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVZxe9KgjEI

Oh woah, you're right! I feel an immediate connection with her. She's got a super similar vibe

[AWellArmedCat]

I just want to say no IEE for you. Beta seems ok, and you remind me a lot of a LSI-Ti from highschool.

Interesting. I'm very curious in what way I remind you of this LSI you knew

[AWellArmedCat]

In your previous vid you talked about stuff that sounded vortical synergistic themes. You used that paradoxically to change self typing. Lol.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. If you could elaborate at all I'd love to know more. If not though, don't worry about it!

[AWellArmedCat]

Positivist. IEI for sure.

Not disagreeing, but out of curiosity, what tells you that I'm positivist?

[Renna]

Not disagreeing, but out of curiosity, what tells you that I'm positivist?

It's just a vibe, so it's hard to describe, and it's not very trustable. But the more I look at people the more I feel it clearer.

Jusk like how I usually think LSI seem charming and friendlier than SLE, despite the fact that they are introvert. And because of that SLE sometime feel more like an introvert/lonewolf than LSI.

[The Reality Denialist]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. If you could elaborate at all I'd love to know more. If not though, don't worry about it!

Characteristic of a 'vortex' is its self-organizing nature, moving like a whirlwind. This manifests mentally as a rapid search for options, tests, and the subsequent screening of variants which do not yield results. It operates on basis of testing, advancing to the goal through trial and error. In a sense, it is comparable to a perpetual lab experiment in the brain.

The first advantage of Vortical cognition—liveliness and naturalness. It seems to simulate the actual processes occurring in nature. Another advantage—faith in success and luck. Synergetics do not confuse temporary setbacks with error; they will undertake attempt after attempt until success ultimately comes to them.

Its chief disadvantage is that the intellectual search is often blind and uneconomical. Another difficulty is its randomness and spontaneity. Synergetic intellect is a kind of chain reaction that catalyzes itself. The mechanism of positive feedback operates: if not curbed, then the concentration of effort first leads to an explosion, followed by dissipation.

Synergetic intellect explains phenomena through substantive reasoning. The very substance (material or substrate) itself generating phenomena through natural movement. In the Aristotle example, the cause of sculpture is the block of marble from which it was made.

[Metaphor]

Doesn't seem EIE enough. Maybe IEE is feasible, but you seem Fe-valuer by the expression alone.
Vortical cognition, despite not being as 'turbulent' compared to their counterpart, which is Dialectical cognition, does seem to have a problem that they 'whirl around an endless circle' that can't be stopped and eventually turned into an atrocity inside their mind, given a perception that their mind is like a turbulent chemical substance possibly. And this state of affairs makes them become 'nothing' without them realizing it too.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

they 'whirl around an endless circle' that can't be stopped and eventually turned into an atrocity inside their mind, given a perception that their mind is like a turbulent chemical substance possibly. And this state of affairs makes them become 'nothing' without them realizing it too.

how is that different compare to DA being split into X makes sense but so does Y but they dont work together so nothing makes sense

[Metaphor]

how is that different compare to DA being split into X makes sense but so does Y but they dont work together so nothing makes sense

"There is a finite that lies within our understanding about the world."

In dialectics, the result of reasoning really isn't absolute and therefore can't be determined by just one variable but two or three (if-then-else) to measure its limit as a boundary, and this doesn't cause a chaos, but a confusion instead due to its process on itself: Finite-Infinite-Denumerable.
Hence then, arguably, the example of Vortical-Synergetic in reasoning is the Socratic method whose the inventor, I thought, was an LIE.

[AWellArmedCat]

@<a href="https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=12637" target="_blank">Alive</a> very kindly reached out to me for a typing video! I’m very sorry I didn’t think about this before, but my own video window is very tiny in this. That was my bad. I just had to see his beautiful face lol

https://youtu.be/DFyv_Dw65jw

Thank you again so much for doing this, Alive! It was fun ^^

[myresearch]

@<a href="https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=12637" target="_blank">Alive</a> very kindly reached out to me for a typing video! I’m very sorry I didn’t think about this before, but my own video window is very tiny in this. That was my bad. I just had to see his beautiful face lol

https://youtu.be/DFyv_Dw65jw


Thank you again so much for doing this, Alive! It was fun ^^

Uhm... I hate to break it to you guys but this seems like Alive's typing video , he covers most of the screen

It is fun though, first time seeing two forumities in one video.

[on a peaceful hiatus]

had to lol seeing how tiny your screen and how gigantic mine is. some things just never work out the first time. Was a fun chat, though.

[godslave]

@<a href="https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=12637" target="_blank">Alive</a> very kindly reached out to me for a typing video! I’m very sorry I didn’t think about this before, but my own video window is very tiny in this. That was my bad. I just had to see his beautiful face lol

https://youtu.be/DFyv_Dw65jw

Thank you again so much for doing this, Alive! It was fun ^^

Great video ! You so vibe like Steve Vai ! I think it's an association in my head now !

Alive seems like a cool guy. For what it's worth I'm interested in languages too. In fact I began to learned Japanese circa 1992. I remember that because it was the time when Zelda a link to the past came out. I played and finished the japanese version so it was the first time I used some basic japanese knowledge. My japanese is quite rusty now, it has not evolved significantly because I don't really practice it. My brother is interested in Japanese too and he kinda learned some just by watching anime. I guess it's the case for most anime aficionados. I love to learn and then discuss about it with someone other than an imaginary interlocutor ahah ! I'm also a musician. Enough talking about me sorry for that !

Edit : I can see IEI. Someone said that you're a positivist. I think it manifest in your Ego functions : Ni+ and Fe+ according to Dr.G's definitions but what is most visible is Fe + (Ethics of positive emotions) maybe because of an enhancement of that function. Quite frankly I have a hard time differentiating Fe + from Fe - ( Ethic of dramatic emotions) because SEIs (Fe -) don't seem that dramatic to me. It doesn't compute with the Type image I have of SEIs whom are adorable irl. Ni+ (Intuition of the future/bringing the future into present) is believing in good outcomes. Because this function is subjective and introverted it is less visible but the fact that you live and work in Japan which is not an easy thing to do for a young gaijin, could be a hint to HD Ni(+). Anyways, NF for sure.

[nifl]

Interesting. I'm very curious in what way I remind you of this LSI you knew

the likelihood of this ''LSI'' actually being an LSI is microscopically low, then

[Metaphor]

It probably is like an endless rollercoaster, and I don't know about you but I got a nausea by just imagining it.