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Thread: The Ukraine Question

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Hope this ends in an European military coalition and we can kick out the Yankees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toro View Post
    What the fuck is a "hithlerist"?
    @Sol refers to the AZOV paramilitary group as if it represented the ukrainian goverment proper. In fact it represents a jewish oligarch's interest. They might use national socialist imagery, but their goals and specially their actions point towards the opposite direction.

    I would separate own opinions from patriotism, personal partisanism or the media's histerics and try to see things for what they are, this goes for both sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    Hope this ends in an European military coalition and we can kick out the Yankees.
    Lol. The Yankees would kick out the rest of the world, but when we look around, we see that we ARE the rest of the world.

    Except for those Irish.

    Don't want to have anything to do with those worthless, lazy, brawling drunks. My god, my grandfather was one.

    Weirdly enough, I share most of his names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    NATO menaced to put nukes in Ukraine that would obliterate Russia in 4 minutes without possibility of retaliation, this means Russia cannot surrender in this war, even if it turns out to be a meat grinder (which seems to be the case).

    Do you want to avoid suffering and deaths? Don't support Ukraine. The faster Russia occupies the less death and pain is generated. Russians cannot "lose" this war, they'll throw everything they have to throw if they have to.

    Do you want to avoid a world war? Don't sanction Russia until driving it into the diplomatic situation of best korea. Making Putin have nothing to lose is not a good idea.
    Just let the dictator have what he wants and maybe he won't hurt us. Victim mentality at its finest.
    Last edited by ouronis; 02-27-2022 at 07:05 PM.

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    Vilnius, 2022.

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    Something doesn't add up.

    For such a large and technologically advanced army, Russia is doing badly. Very badly. Logistical issues and poor Russian morale is being blamed, which really does seem like the obvious and likely explanation.

    But if the war tweets and footage are correct, and if I'm reading the situation correctly, even some Russian attempts at taking isolated strategic targets (like bridges and airports), using special forces, have been repelled. Russian special forces (Spetsnaz) are really, really good. Their morale and loyalty, like all special forces, are superior if not outright fanatical.

    Not to diminish the fighting bravery of the Ukrainians, but I'd strongly consider the possibility that American, British, French, and other NATO special forces have been secretly deployed to Ukraine. Ukraine's call for an 'international brigade' seems like the perfect cover for deploying extranational troops with plausible deniability.

    I'd even speculate that hawks within Western administrations were intending to trigger Russia via NATO expansion, and that it was never a defensive alliance but a deliberate maneuver to provoke Russia into a strategic blunder. They got what they wanted, for the moment, which is to give their enemy a bloody nose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Something doesn't add up.

    For such a large and technologically advanced army, Russia is doing badly. Very badly. Logistical issues and poor Russian morale is being blamed, which really does seem like the obvious and likely explanation.

    But if the war tweets and footage are correct, and if I'm reading the situation correctly, even some Russian attempts at taking isolated strategic targets (like bridges and airports), using special forces, have been repelled. Russian special forces (Spetsnaz) are really, really good. Their morale and loyalty, like all special forces, are superior if not outright fanatical.

    Not to diminish the fighting bravery of the Ukrainians, but I'd strongly consider the possibility that American, British, French, and other NATO special forces have been secretly deployed to Ukraine. Ukraine's call for an 'international brigade' seems like the perfect cover for deploying extranational troops with plausible deniability.

    I'd even speculate that hawks within Western administrations were intending to trigger Russia via NATO expansion, and that it was never a defensive alliance but a deliberate maneuver to provoke Russia into a strategic blunder. They got what they wanted, for the moment, which is to give their enemy a bloody nose.
    @xerx, I don't think that other nations have undercover forces in Ukraine. I don't think anyone in the West thought that Putin was stupid enough to attack.

    From what I've seen, the Russian troops were told they were on maneuvers in the Ukraine, and were surprised when it turned into a live-fire exercise.

    https://twitter.com/aliostad/status/1497519061554630658

    As for the Russians not preparing enough food and fuel for the invasion, that just seems like terrible logistics to me, but entirely possible. I just read that in WWII, the Allies thought they had good records of all the fuel that the Germans had and were surprised when they attacked Poland with almost no surplus. The Allies were convinced that Germany had hidden stores, but no. They just attacked and hoped that there would be no resistance and that the world would respond with appeasement.

    Sort of like what our former president, Appeasement Monkey Trump, would have done.

    Also, while some chickenhawks might want war with Russia, I seriously doubt that anyone else does. Really, lets say that Putin shoots himself tomorrow and is replaced by a competent, liberal democratic government (not that that's likely). Who wants to rule over a nation that is an oil state the size of Russia with an economy smaller than Italy and has 1950's technology?
    You could pour money into that place forever and not get a dime back.

  8. #248
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    Ah yes, immature and white trash breeder boys blaming gay people.

    Nah, this is all the fault of a patronizing and condescending narcissistic str8 male with insecure penis issues. Like most problems in the world.

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    The New York Times reports that Ukraine agrees to talks with Russia.

    Putin tries to buy time for the invasion to work, and Ukraine is being polite.

    Ukraine's terms should be that Russia can have it's soldiers back, but not their weapons.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-27-2022 at 07:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    Is Ukraine’s government actually controlled by neo-nazis? Where did that story come from?
    It came from plenty of videos and interviews made on this topic. Zelensky's government wasn't actively controlled by them, but it was in the least turning a blind eye to activities of these groups that nationalistic Ukranians decided to use to target, kill and maim people of the independent republics of LNR and DNR.

    These white supremacist guys are marching out in the open on the streets and it seems to be well tolerated.

    There's also the pesky fact that Poland wouldn't accept refugees from Middle East, since they are Middle Eastern, but their doors are wide open to Ukrainians since they are white - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/w...es-poland.html

    The West with its colonial past is of course also happy to turn a blind eye to this and continue funding these white supremacists indirectly. Supporting terrorists and extremists is nothing new to the gov of United States, as long as these groups are against whomever they deem an enemy.



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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Low-key hoping that this is real.



    Officially they are going to denounce it, ofc, but Chechens are sending a battalion of their own into Ukraine for special ops. In their own words, "to clear up the Nazis", since middle eastern Islamic ideology is in a lot of conflict with Ukranian and Polish white supremacists movements.


    https://tinyurl.com/yc2dmfe6

    https://tinyurl.com/abechr76

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrInternet View Post
    This is motivated by the fact that Ukraine is neighbouring Poland (so it's more reasonable to seek asylum there), and the fact that Ukrainians and Poles are culturally more similar. Presumably it's easier to get them integrated, getting jobs and paying taxes. My country (Sweden) is well-acquainted with the risks of letting in huge amounts of Middle Easterners with little incentive to integrate, and it's understandable that Poland didn't want to take the same route.
    That's the conservative traditionalist typically Republican pov here in US as well. Let's only 'import' people from countries similar to ourselves and screw the rest.

    Your post also doesn't explain why there are effectively Nazis marching openly on Ukrainian streets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Officially they are going to denounce it, ofc, but Chechens are sending a battalion of their own into Ukraine for special ops. In their own words, "to clear up the Nazis", since middle eastern Islamic ideology is in a lot of conflict with Ukranian and Polish white supremacists movements.
    Wowzers, "is this a real life?" moment for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberpunk View Post
    Wowzers, "is this a real life?" moment for me.
    didn't foresee this huh?

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    Fuck taking in "refugees" from the middle east.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    I like how russia is using the nazi narrative, seems a bit odd when you look at their beloved history, which they glorify
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molo...ibbentrop_Pact

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale...n%20Federation.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popu...20deportations.

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  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Instead of invading other countries, liberal democracies just hold meetings to exchange information and ideas and then they cut off the credit of the bad guys, so they can't play with the adults anymore.
    Ooooooh, so Iraq was invaded and bombed by gnomes, and it was gnomes pulling out of Afghanistan this past year. It wasn't the liberal democracy of United States, but it was the gnomes who invaded those countries.

    Later on, two of those gnomes by names of Hilary and Bill Clinton were discussing how it would be nice to bomb the people of Iran.

    If this is what "exchange of ideas" looks like then count me out of it, smh, sounds too genocidal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ... so they can't play with the adults anymore.
    An adult wouldn't confuse snottiness for maturity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Ooooooh, so Iraq was invaded and bombed by gnomes, and it was gnomes pulling out of Afghanistan this past year. It wasn't the liberal democracy of United States, but it was the gnomes who invaded those countries.

    Later on, two of those gnomes by names of Hilary and Bill Clinton were discussing how it would be nice to bomb the people of Iran.

    If this is what "exchange of ideas" looks like then count me out of it, smh, sounds too genocidal.



    An adult wouldn't confuse snottiness for maturity.

    The US government operates for the benefit of the wealthy class in the US, no question about it. Every other government also operates almost entirely for the benefit of it's own wealthy class. I really can't think of any exceptions.

    Still, if I had to be at the mercy of either the US government or the Russian government, I'd choose the US. You seem to have made that choice, too, @silke.

    Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Don't be surprised when they give you the middle finger too.

    Not only am I unsurprised, I also don't care.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    It came from plenty of videos and interviews made on this topic. Zelensky's government wasn't actively controlled by them, but it was in the least turning a blind eye to activities of these groups that nationalistic Ukranians decided to use to target, kill and maim people of the independent republics of LNR and DNR.

    These white supremacist guys are marching out in the open on the streets and it seems to be well tolerated.

    There's also the pesky fact that Poland wouldn't accept refugees from Middle East, since they are Middle Eastern, but their doors are wide open to Ukrainians since they are white - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/w...es-poland.html

    The West with its colonial past is of course also happy to turn a blind eye to this and continue funding these white supremacists indirectly. Supporting terrorists and extremists is nothing new to the gov of United States, as long as these groups are against whomever they deem an enemy.


    The story of one militia does not represent the views of 44 million Ukrainians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Just let the dictator have what he wants and maybe he won't hurt us. Victim mentality at its finest.
    The dictator wants Minsk agreements to be respected and to not have nukes on the border capable of obliterating his country in 4 minutes. Do you think that's enough of a reason for starting a worldwide nuclear catastrophe? Or to keep Ukrainians dying and suffering on an unwinnable war turned into a meat grinder? Its absurd. As always, emotional arguments "muh victim mentality" in order to justify the unjustifiable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    It came from plenty of videos and interviews made on this topic. Zelensky's government wasn't actively controlled by them, but it was in the least turning a blind eye to activities of these groups that nationalistic Ukranians decided to use to target, kill and maim people of the independent republics of LNR and DNR.

    These white supremacist guys are marching out in the open on the streets and it seems to be well tolerated.

    There's also the pesky fact that Poland wouldn't accept refugees from Middle East, since they are Middle Eastern, but their doors are wide open to Ukrainians since they are white - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/w...es-poland.html

    The West with its colonial past is of course also happy to turn a blind eye to this and continue funding these white supremacists indirectly. Supporting terrorists and extremists is nothing new to the gov of United States, as long as these groups are against whomever they deem an enemy.


    AZOV can claim whatever it wants and can use the symbols it wants, but follow the money trail, their leadership and their actions and you'll notice how things usually are not how they're presented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    The dictator wants Minsk agreements to be respected and to not have nukes on the border capable of obliterating his country in 4 minutes. Do you think that's enough of a reason for starting a worldwide nuclear catastrophe? Or to keep Ukrainians dying and suffering on an unwinnable war turned into a meat grinder? Its absurd. As always, emotional arguments "muh victim mentality" in order to justify the unjustifiable.
    This is what your argument boils down to. It says if you don't want Putin to throw nukes at you, indulge in either the propaganda that his baseless paranoia that the west is going to attack is what's driving him or clear the way for his true imperialist ambitions. The west has no interest in attacking Russia. Russia is a defeated enemy with very little power outside of their nukes. The only thing they want to do is stop Putin's bullshit craziness where he is playing off the same playbook as every indefensible dictator. That is not something we should or can do by laying down and taking it, and we don't have to, so fuck him.

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    Ukraine must join the European Union, the president of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyenen said in an interview with Euronews

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    The dictator wants Minsk agreements to be respected and to not have nukes on the border capable of obliterating his country in 4 minutes. Do you think that's enough of a reason for starting a worldwide nuclear catastrophe? Or to keep Ukrainians dying and suffering on an unwinnable war turned into a meat grinder? Its absurd. As always, emotional arguments "muh victim mentality" in order to justify the unjustifiable.
    Putin's torn up the Minsk agreement by invading Ukraine. He breached the Budapest agreement long before that.

    You seem to be saying the the Ukrainians should give up sovereignty so that they can be Putin's meat shield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    This is what your argument boils down to. It says if you don't want Putin to throw nukes at you, indulge in either the propaganda that his baseless paranoia that the west is going to attack is what's driving him or clear the way for his true imperialist ambitions. The west has no interest in attacking Russia. Russia is a defeated enemy with very little power outside of their nukes. The only thing they want to do is stop Putin's bullshit craziness where he is playing off the same playbook as every indefensible dictator. That is not something we should or can do by laying down and taking it, and we don't have to, so fuck him.
    This is what your argument boils down to. It says if you don't want Kennedy to throw nukes at you, indulge in either the propaganda that his baseless paranoia that the Warsaw pact is going to attack is what's driving him or clear the way for his true imperialist ambitions.

    The situation is similar to the Cuban missile crisis, in which the US tried to invade through Bahia de Cochinos (rightfully). There's a fundamental difference though; Ukrainian paramilitaries alongside Novorrosiyan separatist kill each other in skirmishes and shootouts caring very little for Minsk's agreements, usually there's no clear initiator of hostilities, and in the case of Ukraine joining NATO, a skirmish gone sour can end in Russia's obliteration.

    It is absurd for even the world's security to get a country in the middle of an ongoing civil conflict near a nuclear powerhouse into NATO, even more if you take into account that Russia is as you say, defeated already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    This is what your argument boils down to. It says if you don't want Kennedy to throw nukes at you, indulge in either the propaganda that his baseless paranoia that the Warsaw pact is going to attack is what's driving him or clear the way for his true imperialist ambitions.

    The situation is similar to the Cuban missile crisis, in which the US tried to invade through Bahia de Cochinos (rightfully). There's a fundamental difference though; Ukrainian paramilitaries alongside Novorrosiyan separatist kill each other in skirmishes and shootouts caring very little for Minsk's agreements, usually there's no clear initiator of hostilities, and in the case of Ukraine joining NATO, a skirmish gone sour can end in Russia's obliteration.

    It is absurd for even the world's security to get a country in the middle of an ongoing civil conflict near a nuclear powerhouse into NATO, even more if you take into account that Russia is as you say, defeated already.
    Personally, I want Russia to survive and to prosper. I just don't want this for Putin.

    And before you say anything, let me add that I also don't want this for Trump, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    This is what your argument boils down to. It says if you don't want Kennedy to throw nukes at you, indulge in either the propaganda that his baseless paranoia that the Warsaw pact is going to attack is what's driving him or clear the way for his true imperialist ambitions.

    The situation is similar to the Cuban missile crisis, in which the US tried to invade through Bahia de Cochinos (rightfully). There's a fundamental difference though; Ukrainian paramilitaries alongside Novorrosiyan separatist kill each other in skirmishes and shootouts caring very little for Minsk's agreements, usually there's no clear initiator of hostilities, and in the case of Ukraine joining NATO, a skirmish gone sour can end in Russia's obliteration.

    It is absurd for even the world's security to get a country in the middle of an ongoing civil conflict near a nuclear powerhouse into NATO, even more if you take into account that Russia is as you say, defeated already.
    Maybe Russia shouldn't back paramilitaries in Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Putin's torn up the Minsk agreement by invading Ukraine. He breached the Budapest agreement long before that.

    You seem to be saying the the Ukrainians should give up sovereignty so that they can be Putin's meat shield.
    >Putin's torn up the Minsk agreement by invading Ukraine.

    Putin has already declared that the Minsk agreements no longer exist, and in his view have been broken by Ukraine. This is very doubtful as I'd like to see to what extent the militias serve the Ukrainian goverment and to what extent were the Donetsk and Lugansk popular republics responsible for the hostilities. Initially one of his core demands for resolving the crisis were to respect the Minsk agreement.

    >You seem to be saying the the Ukrainians should give up sovereignty so that they can be Putin's meat shield.

    Ukrainians should seek cooperation with the west as much as it doesn't pose a nuclear threat to it's neighbors and as much as it doesn't lead to a wider conflict in Europe. Which means Ukraine shouldn't enter NATO, although the EU or the US should ideally be able to guarantee Ukrainian independence and sovereignty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Maybe Russia shouldn't back paramilitaries in Ukraine
    He probably shouldn't, that doesn't change the fact that Ukraine's NATO membership is a serious threat to european and russian security.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    He probably shouldn't, that doesn't change the fact that Ukraine's NATO membership is a serious threat to european and russian security.
    I doubt it ever was. Now, it's much too late for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    >Putin's torn up the Minsk agreement by invading Ukraine.

    Putin has already declared that the Minsk agreements no longer exist, and in his view have been broken by Ukraine. This is very doubtful as I'd like to see to what extent the militias serve the Ukrainian goverment and to what extent were the Donetsk and Lugansk popular republics responsible for the hostilities. Initially one of his core demands for resolving the crisis were to respect the Minsk agreement.

    >You seem to be saying the the Ukrainians should give up sovereignty so that they can be Putin's meat shield.

    Ukrainians should seek cooperation with the west as much as it doesn't pose a nuclear threat to it's neighbors and as much as it doesn't lead to a wider conflict in Europe. Which means Ukraine shouldn't enter NATO, although the EU or the US should ideally be able to guarantee Ukrainian independence and sovereignty.
    Russia and the USA have nuclear missiles that can travel across whole continents, and you're worried about nukes on the border of Russia - a state which has persistently invaded its neighbours over the last 20 years?

    From what everyone can see, Russia is less likely to invade a country if it is a member of Nato or the EU.

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    RBRS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I doubt it ever was. Now, it's much too late for that.
    It was, because the country is in the middle of a civil war with an armistice that wasn't being enforced, near Russia, and with the possibility of obliterating the Kremlin in 4 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @xerx, I don't think that other nations have undercover forces in Ukraine. I don't think anyone in the West thought that Putin was stupid enough to attack.

    From what I've seen, the Russian troops were told they were on maneuvers in the Ukraine, and were surprised when it turned into a live-fire exercise.

    https://twitter.com/aliostad/status/1497519061554630658

    As for the Russians not preparing enough food and fuel for the invasion, that just seems like terrible logistics to me, but entirely possible. I just read that in WWII, the Allies thought they had good records of all the fuel that the Germans had and were surprised when they attacked Poland with almost no surplus. The Allies were convinced that Germany had hidden stores, but no. They just attacked and hoped that there would be no resistance and that the world would respond with appeasement.

    Sort of like what our former president, Appeasement Monkey Trump, would have done.
    If this was a formal test question, I would probably also write down that Russia's failure is primarily due to incompetence. Incompetence is usually the simplest and best explanation for any sort of failure in any context.

    But while I'm not a psychologist or an expert on the behaviour of military strategists, I do recognize an opportunity when I see one. And the NATO allies have been gifted an enormous opportunity to inflict damage on an adversary. We already know that they're sending lethal military equipment (it has been explicitly admitted by mainstream news and in Pentagon press briefings). What's so unlikely about sending so-called "volunteers" to join Ukraine's international brigade?


    Also, while some chickenhawks might want war with Russia, I seriously doubt that anyone else does. Really, lets say that Putin shoots himself tomorrow and is replaced by a competent, liberal democratic government (not that that's likely). Who wants to rule over a nation that is an oil state the size of Russia with an economy smaller than Italy and has 1950's technology?

    You could pour money into that place forever and not get a dime back.
    Russia should have fully recovered by now, but that was preempted by a series of unfortunate economic and political decisions. Under Joseph Stalin, the Soviet Union had recovered (from World War I and the Russian Civil War) within a generation. Both France and Germany recovered, also within a generation, from the Franco-Prussian War and World War I, respectively.

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    Baqer's Avatar
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    Hungarian man copy paste #3:

    Let's talk a bit about the Russian military, i.e. how the f could this "superpower" be completely rebuffed by Ukraine?


    Some say that Russia wanted to win this war mostly through conscripts, and that the "elite" with the "good equipment©" are yet to be deployed. This is not quite true.


    Russia did deploy their elites, their best in fact, the paratroopers. The problem is, those paratroopers are dead. Killed at Hostomel Airport, or blown out of the sky in those two IL-76 transport planes (2-300 instant KIA).


    That being said, Russia still does have a large number of modern equipment that hasn't been deployed yet. The problem is, deploying them isn't easy. You need well-functioning, robust logistics chains to get your hardware moving on such a large scale. Judging by the fact that Russian soldiers are running out of fuel and rations for the second day in a row now, Russian logistics are a complete catastrophy.


    Case in point, their air force: if you look at the difference in size, it's overwhelming. Russians should have achieved air superiority from day 1. And yet, the sky above Ukraine is still contested (the famous pilot called Ghost of Kyiv is now at 10 kills btw).


    They did start sending in some advanced hardware today, like T-90 tanks (a column of which a bunch of villagers blocked, forcing them to turn around), but Western countries also started pumping Ukraine with latest generation weapons. Even Germany is giving them their newest Panzerfaust now, designed to punch through the T-90s reactive armor.


    If anything, this war exposed Russia as a paper tiger. A global superpower with a world-class army, and yet they cannot take a single city in 4 days of invasion? Also keep in mind, rolling through the countryside is the easy part. The hard part is going inside cities and doing urban battle. Russians are stumbling at the easy part. How well would they fare during the latter?


    The moral of the story: you can have huge numbers, mountains of hardware and a sea of troops, but you need the logistics and economy to match it. Russia has neither of the latter two.


    And we haven't even talked about morale, which is a whole other story, one I feel like I've covered enough already.


    Russia is fucked. Glory to Ukraine.

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    I’m disturbed that Putin ordered his nuclear forces to go on high alert today. Wtf

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    This shit just sucks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    I’m disturbed that Putin ordered his nuclear forces to go on high alert today. Wtf
    Yeah it really is terrifying. It means "Russia will nuke and someone with nukes will retaliate". If this doesn't put him in league with Kim Jong-Un and his ilk, I don't know what does. Actually nuking, probably.

    I heard it was just to give the negotiators a bargaining chip, let's hope that's what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Russia and the USA have nuclear missiles that can travel across whole continents, and you're worried about nukes on the border of Russia - a state which has persistently invaded its neighbours over the last 20 years?

    From what everyone can see, Russia is less likely to invade a country if it is a member of Nato or the EU.
    >Russia and the USA have nuclear missiles that can travel across whole continents, and you're worried about nukes on the border of Russia - a state which has persistently invaded its neighbours over the last 20 years?

    Nukes that can hit under the time limit of 4 minutes can go undetected, meaning most vital Russian infrastructure could be destroyed without response, that's a serious threat.

    >Russia is less likely to invade a country if it is a member of Nato or the EU.

    When Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, or the baltic states joined NATO, Russia didn't intervene. But they did intervene in Ukraine after Euromaidan, and have intervened again, it seems like it is for the very same reason. Might that be because Russia is reacting agains't a serious threat to their security? Because NATO has kept expanding into Eastern and Southeastern Europe since the fall of the Warsaw pact.

    Ukraine's NATO application isn't worth all this conflict, specially in economic terms Europe is going to be hit very, very hard.
    Last edited by RBRS; 02-28-2022 at 12:10 AM.

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