Conflict Relations Mother- Daughter Shaping Sense of Self

[Becca]

Has anyone else experienced this? Having this constant self doubt in your skills based on them always being seen as useless and unimportant.

I strongly feel that that shaped how I see myself, and it makes it harder when I meet her and she triggers all those feelings of unworthiness.

I am INFj and she is ENTp, and every time I try to explain my reasoning she thinks I am being dramatic or harsh. The only way we can have interactions is on a superficial level, carefully making sure not to step on each other's toes. It is exhausting.

For example, I cannot talk about my baby's need to sleep because she makes fun of me for being neurotic (Si), or not being able to play with her enough, which she get's extremely touchy about. If only she could see my side that I am trying to do what's best for my daughter... But she always get's annoyed by me. I try to cater to her as much as I could, but it is strained and we even have to promise each other that 'We won't fight" when we go out together.

Any suggestions or similar experiences?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

That's not conflictors, that's you supervising her. (that's what you meant right?) Very common to think of your supervisor as harsh. My ESE mom thinks I'm really harsh when most of the world sees me as a soft kitten. If they *are* naturally harsh to begin with AND your supervisor it's so awkward and dark/cutting, that the only thing I know how to do is try and laugh it off.

Superficiality and shallowness might sadly be the price to pay if you want to keep the peace. (If I act kinda fake hallmark card greeting ish with my mom we can get along beautifully.) And this forum gives those things a bad rap but they aren't as shitty as you guys make them out to be. I guess u just have to decide if the peace is worth it or not.

[Becca]

That's not conflictors, that's you supervising her. (that's what you meant right?) Very common to think of your supervisor as harsh. My ESE mom thinks I'm really harsh when most of the world sees me as a soft kitten. If they *are* naturally harsh to begin with AND your supervisor it's so awkward and dark/cutting, that the only thing I know how to do is try and laugh it off.

Superficiality and shallowness might sadly be the price to pay if you want to keep the peace. (If I act kinda fake hallmark card greeting ish with my mom we can get along beautifully.) And this forum gives those things a bad rap but they aren't as shitty as you guys make them out to be. I guess u just have to decide if the peace is worth it or not.

Thanks, but she's not a supervisor, I only gave that example in my interactions so I see why you think that. there is also the clash between her Se and my Polr, such as when she enforces me to go out more or admonishes me that I am neglecting my appearance, which is a top priority for her.
We also clash in her Fe seeking, when I ignore her or am not cheerful enough and she takes it personal... And she ignores Si by being able to fall asleep sitting up all the time, or just not eating lunch or eating a lone pepper for a meal.
Thanks for your reply, I love IEI congeniality Xx

[Exodus]

So she's SLE? And she's your mother?

I would say yes, the relationships you have with your family can warp your conception of what is normal, for your type and otherwise. I grew up in a household mostly without Si valuers and it wasn't until going to college that I realized the level of conflict that existed was not necessary or even normal.

[Becca]

So she's SLE? And she's your mother?

I would say yes, the relationships you have with your family can warp your conception of what is normal, for your type and otherwise. I grew up in a household mostly without Si valuers and it wasn't until going to college that I realized the level of conflict that existed was not necessary or even normal.

Yeah
Thanks I really think this messed me up a lot because even now, when I want to use my Fi, I feel stupid about it. She also ignored me a lot when I was hurt and angry about things as a kid, so now I have triggers about being upset as well and I feel I have no right to my own emotions. Sigh it's hard.

I also had that about Si, when I went somewhere where they focused on it I was like "Yes I love this place!" But at the same time it is weird for me.

[Rebelondeck]

Most Ijs look upon their own competence objectively, which is a good thing but this makes self-doubt rather common in youth. Because we may do things differently from our mothers does not invalidate our own methods no matter how much we may be criticized. When confidence and autonomy builds, Ijs usually develop a huge ability to ignore what others may say, which can have both positive and negative consequences. The problem is not the criticism; it's how it's received and processed. Unfortunately, more than a few Ijs remain in their self-doubt holes......

a.k.a. I/O

[Becca]

Most Ijs look upon their own competence objectively, which is a good thing but this makes self-doubt rather common in youth. Because we may do things differently from our mothers does not invalidate our own methods no matter how much we may be criticized. When confidence and autonomy builds, Ijs usually develop a huge ability to ignore what others may say, which can have both positive and negative consequences. The problem is not the criticism; it's how it's received and processed. Unfortunately, more than a few Ijs remain in their self-doubt holes......

a.k.a. I/O

I go back and forth with confidence and autonomy, it's only when I'm around the people who hurt me the most as a child that self doubt hits the hardest. I think how we were treated as children truly affects our self image, and it can be harder for someone who experienced a lot of adversity to be confident in their self worth..
With new people that compliment my personality, it is easier for me to be confident but there is always a voice in my head saying something is wrong and I think I just pinpointed why that is so- because of how my mother never received me for who I was fully. She complimented me only when I utilized my weak functions Se Ti Ni and Fe, and I always felt I had to make those stronger in order to be worthy of her attention. For example, be more spontaneous, take care to look great all the time, never show your feelings when you are hurt, and come up with long winded spiritual insights.

[Rebelondeck]

@Becca It's no easy matter to shed automated responses that have conditioned from childhood. A person cannot go through life without accumulating some baggage but the true measure of having overcome the adversity is not saddling others with similar baggage - especially ones children.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Chae]

Has anyone else experienced this? Having this constant self doubt in your skills based on them always being seen as useless and unimportant.

I strongly feel that that shaped how I see myself, and it makes it harder when I meet her and she triggers all those feelings of unworthiness.

I got the same issue. It's enneagram-related. Mom is E1 criticizing everything non-stop, nothing's ever good enough. Me - E3 - feel like my worth depends on praise beyond meeting her standards. I just want her to acknowledge me once.

[Becca]

@Rebelondeck Yep but some people are so wounded from how they were ignored that they create a false self and leave their original selves. They are too afraid to look deep down at what was done to them! Drives me crazy.
BTW what type are you? INTj?

[Rebelondeck]

....BTW what type are you? INTj?

Yes, and very high Ti likely because I had a mother who, from my very early childhood, dumped all her woes on me as if I were her psychoanalyst - tmi for a kid

[Becca]

Yes, and very high Ti likely because I had a mother who, from my very early childhood, dumped all her woes on me as if I were her psychoanalyst - tmi for a kid

Probably because you we're her son-husband lol

[Alstroemeria]

Hi Becca!

I can relate. In fact, the title made me reply because I was curious about the very same thing. I am ILI and my mother is ESE, and I don't have a good relationship with her. My mother always belittled me and made me feel inferior - she convinced me that I was dirty, lazy, argumentative, harsh, cruel, unlikable, and that no one would ever love me due to my character. (on top of a generous heaping of informing me verbally that I was the biggest problem in her life simply by existing). She also controlled who I went out with and who I met, and was convinced I wouldn't be able to survive by myself. My one redeeming trait to her was my intellect, and I sought to maximize that, if only to earn her love and affirmation. But then I gave up trying to get her to approve of me once I hit my teenage years, and also went to seek a diagnosis for depression when I was 16 since I felt like killing myself The worst part was the fact that it was difficult to get anyone to understand since in public she was always kind and affirming and acted like your best friend.

Now I mostly seek to avoid my mother as much as I can, and I met my SEE s/o who does a pretty good job at convincing me that my mother was wrong about me. (and for that I am really grateful that duality exists) I still am depressed, but I'm still alive so I think that's great. I'm not sure how conflict relations can be salvaged really. I would simply suggest avoiding your mother as much as you can and trying to keep conversations to a superficial level when you have to meet her, but perhaps this is not the answer you are seeking (and I may be biased )

I would also be interested in reading other responses, if only to gain a nuanced perspective

[niffer]

Somebody who views you as useless and unimportant is useless and unimportant to you. Gain your independence and cut her out.

[Pookie]

Unless shes a terrible mother in general, I think its good to keep an open mind about what advice she has for you regarding parenting. No ones got it figured out all the way, and whats best for the kids isnt always what we think.

Regarding the stress factor. Being around other people who value the same functions as you will give you the breaks you need to handle a conflict relation. You live at her house still?

[Chae]

Supervision with the daughter as supervisor is tough, I have the exact same constellation as Becca and it's difficult every day. What I see as helpful options are other people influencing this issue, like a dual for the mother, to have some benefactor stuff going on as well. Or the daughter has an activity partner to moderate. Other than that you only have time on your side until the relation turns around authority-wise.

[FDG]

Do people honestly expect their parents to compliment and encourage them...?

[Rebelondeck]

Do people honestly expect their parents to compliment and encourage them...?

Encouragement would be nice but to complement, no. The main disconnect between parent and child is communication, which is usually fomented by generational and social issues, but communication can be further complicated by type mismatches. However, the parent is ultimately responsible for mitigating any conflict but many parents are incompetent at mitigation and it's difficult to fault them for this shortcoming because it's a very specialized skill; I've known few who were really good at it.......

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

Supervision or conflict. This brings two different cases:
1. Supervisor: it's mainly OK while implementation and reactions could be bit different at times. For time being it is seen OK enough by supervisee unless supervisor brings up something critical about supervisee who after that implodes. I think numerous implosions are good way of describing it for both parties.
2. Conflictor: bring in something that shows conflict of interest for example third person and it is screwed. Both think that they are right and wont listen.

[niffer]

Do people honestly expect their parents to compliment and encourage them...?

Uh.. yes? What the fuck?

Encouragement would be nice but to complement, no. The main disconnect between parent and child is communication, which is usually fomented by generational and social issues, but communication can be further complicated by type mismatches. However, the parent is ultimately responsible for mitigating any conflict but many parents are incompetent at mitigation and it's difficult to fault them for this shortcoming because it's a very specialized skill; I've known few who were really good at it.......

a.k.a. I/O

Yes I agree with this. Maybe not shower the kid with compliments and false encouragement or praise or other empty words which could also be unhealthy in other directions for a number of different reasons. But if you don't at least want to encourage your kids to be able to deal with what life brings then WTF is the point of having them? And the OP was describing how she was being told by her parent that she was unimportant and worthless, shutting her down outright ( @FDG ). Not a comparable situation, like expecting pampering lol.

[Bertrand]

people are shit so I don't expect (as in take future oriented action reliant on them fulfilling their duty) them to do anything

but inasmuch as its the right thing to do I would "expect" (infer a duty) for parents to encourage their children (under circumstances worth encouraging, i.e.: good behavior/notable accomplishments, etc)

I guess we need to distinguish semantics and morals

failure to expect parents to encourage their children (as in infer a duty) on the moral plane would be a feature of a despicable society so it feels weird for someone to imply such a thing might be the normative state

its these kinds of implications that make me think FDG is kind of an asshole (especially under the context in which it occurred, as @niffer rightly pointed out)

[FDG]

Yes I will spank my kids daily

How can I honestly reply seriously?

[niffer]

How can I honestly reply seriously?

If you can't it means you probably are an asshole who is experiencing cognitive dissonance.

Just because you're a fucking weird victim who likes getting spanked in the bedroom doesn't mean it will do any good for your kids.

Don't have them if you yourself are still a child.

[Bertrand]

If you can't it means probably are an asshole who is experiencing cognitive dissonance.

Just because you're a fucking weird victim who likes getting spanked in the bedroom doesn't mean it will do any good for your kids.

Don't have them if you yourself are still a child.

lol I never really thought of it that way, but its like they subconsciously know they're immoral and need to be punished

[niffer]

lol I never really thought of it that way, but its like they subconsciously know they're immoral and need to be punished

lmfao

[Bertrand]

lmfao

especially when you consider what constitutes a "good" or "notable" thing is just a question of values; hence "encouragement" is merely the propogation of values from parent to child. to infer such a thing is superfluous is to infer the normative society is the valueless society. its like, what is this?-- lord of the flies? is FDG a sith lord who one day hopes his apprentice will usurp him via murder? in the absence of values only pure power remains, (which ironically is still a value, which is how we can call such a person an asshole on the basis of their values), and such a thing is empty... like you said, why even have kids at that point?

we all know no one is that badass, so really its just either ignorance (as to what one is really saying by implication) or an attempt to appear badass in a totally self defeating way (why bother?--we all know you're not--and even if you were there will still be no point), both of which are just kind of pathetic

i'm going to be gracious and chalk it up to language barrier and say no ones that pathetic

[FDG]

If you can't it means you probably are an asshole who is experiencing cognitive dissonance.

Just because you're a fucking weird victim who likes getting spanked in the bedroom doesn't mean it will do any good for your kids.

Don't have them if you yourself are still a child.

Yeah I will never have kids because you said so, sure.

My personal opinion: parents are humans and your interactions with them will largely be similar to their interaction with the rest of the world.

If you are fortunate enough to have parents who have positive-constructive interactions with the outside world due to upbringing, personality, circumstances - consider yourself lucky. If your parents have less constructive interactions with the outside world, it's unreasonable to expect them to behave differently with you, you have to accept them for who they are.

[niffer]

LOL, and sith lord lol

an attempt to appear badass in a totally self defeating way (why bother?--we all know you're not--and even if you were there will still be no point), both of which are just kind of pathetic

well this is Se HA in a nutshell.

also @FDG told me he's short so the mental image of a small, childlike, angry european man taking out all his rage and feelings of impotence by spanking the shit out of a helpless child (FINALLY, something smaller than him) fits well i guess

[Bertrand]

Yeah I will never have kids because you said so, sure.

My personal opinion: parents are humans and your interactions with them will largely be similar to their interaction with the rest of the world.

If you are fortunate enough to have parents who have positive-constructive interactions with the outside world due to upbringing, personality, circumstances - consider yourself lucky. If your parents have less constructive interactions with the outside world, it's unreasonable to expect them to behave differently with you, you have to accept them for who they are.

yeah heaven forbid anyone fight with their parents on the basis of differing values

[Bertrand]

LOL, and sith lord lol



well this is Se HA in a nutshell.

also @FDG told me he's short so the mental image of a small, childlike, angry european man taking out all his rage and feelings of impotence by spanking the shit out of a helpless child (FINALLY, something smaller than him) fits well i guess

damn, have we gone too far? I thought we were beating up on a moron, not a sympathetic moron

hahaha

anyway, I'm not entirely serious. I don't believe anyone actually lives out FDG's malformed child rearing philosophy. at least not in a nation of laws and child protective services, which I assume are of the highest quality in Switzerland

[FDG]

I don't see how I was trying to appear badass, but you can go on with your show if you wish to.

[niffer]

Yeah I will never have kids because you said so, sure.

My personal opinion: parents are humans and your interactions with them will largely be similar to their interaction with the rest of the world.

If you are fortunate enough to have parents who have positive-constructive interactions with the outside world due to upbringing, personality, circumstances - consider yourself lucky. If your parents have less constructive interactions with the outside world, it's unreasonable to expect them to behave differently with you, you have to accept them for who they are.

Yeah whatever at this constructivist-positive bullshit from you backtracking now trying to wash away how you just first insensitively threw your initial post out in this context of someone venting about their personal problems.

Stop trying to make people try to believe you're more mature than you are and stop making people feel bad when they're just trying to vent. You are just an emotionally immature ass.

[FDG]

Yeah whatever at this constructivist-positive bullshit from you backtracking now trying to wash away how you just first insensitively threw your initial post out in this context of someone venting about their personal problems.

Stop trying to make people try to believe you're more mature than you are and stop making people feel bad when they're just trying to vent. You are just an emotionally immature ass.

That's your opinion, others may think differently.

[niffer]

Yup, just my correct opinion only!

Thanks for the encouragement earlier on carrying on with my show!

[FDG]

Yup, just my correct opinion only!

That would mean all the others are wrong.

[Bertrand]

honestly whoever liked your bullshit initial post was definitely wrong

and yes it irritated me that it got any likes at all

[niffer]

That would mean all the others are wrong.

A genius in our midst.

[FDG]

honestly whoever liked your bullshit initial post was definitely wrong

and yes it irritated me that it got any likes at all

(Wasn't posted with that intention)

[niffer]

@Bertrand and I are like good fairy moral parents double team spanking @FDG and he's probably secretly child-boner enjoying it too

[Bertrand]

bbl, shower