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Thread: FarDraft Video Questionnaire

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    Default FarDraft Video Questionnaire

    Hi, everyone. I made another video questionnaire since I'm stuck between ILI and LII. While I relate more to the ILI profiles, I relate to many aspects of the LII profiles and there exists IR evidence (Sol's test | might redo it for statistical purposes) which strongly indicates LII over ILI. However, in reality, I have to spend a lot of time with a Ti base (probably LSI) and she is quite different than I, which complicates things, though I understand that a sample size of one is not enough to yield useful conclusions.

    I'd like to hear your input since I've just been reading and rereading the profiles, trying to find something useful to help, which isn't very efficient. If it happens to be the case that I have enough information but just need to wait it out, seeing how the real world affects me and me it, then so be it. I'll be patient, especially since I'm pretty young to be typed anyway (17).

    Thanks.

    By the way, sorry about the quiet volume. I naturally speak quietly, but since I'm talking about personal affairs, I'd rather not let the world hear, lol.

    Also, I do certainly value intelligence as well as competence. I should have phrased that better in my video. Competence is the ability to complete a task well, which I like since it leads group projects to be much easier. Intelligence is the ability to solve novel problems with little experience (I know it's more complicated, but that's the definition I'll use for now), which I like in others since it allows for a greater ability to converse intellectually.

    Video removed for now. Thank you for your suggestions.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-29-2019 at 07:45 PM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    I mean you got a contingency plan, and you said STEM is "the best way to go", or in other words, it's the Ni-Te way to go. I only watched 3 mins and I'm like how are you not ILI. Also you said competence > intelligence. Sounds like Te > Ti.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 03-25-2019 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I mean you got a contingency plan, and you said STEM is "the best way to go", or in other words, it's the Ni-Te way to go. I only watched 3 mins and I'm like how are you not ILI. Also you said competence > intelligence. Sounds like Te > Ti.
    The issue I have is that that sounds like the MBTI interpretation of NiTe (contingency planning, mostly) rather than the socionics interpretation. I'm rather certain of being NiTe in MBTI, yet the same can't be said about socionics since neither profile really hones in on planning with respect to type. Gulenko talks about it, but model G tries to reconcile MBTI and socionics, which would naturally lend itself to easier typing for someone who knows MBTI in depth. At the high-level, contingency planning would be linked to rationality, though.

    Also, I do certainly value intelligence as well as competence. I should have phrased that better in my video. Competence is the ability to complete a task well, which I like since it leads group projects to be much easier. Intelligence is the ability to solve novel problems with little experience (I know it's more complicated, but that's the definition I'll use for now), which I like in others since it allows for a greater ability to converse intellectually. I'll add this as a footnote in the op.

    EDIT: My opinions on planning and socionics have changed at this point.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 07-05-2019 at 04:06 AM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Well, @FarDraft, from your user name and your convos in chat and the phrasing of the writing in your posts, you resemble most of the LII's whom I know and none of the ILI's whom I know.

    However, you don't look like any of those LII's, but instead rather strongly resemble a couple of the ILI's. Except for the smiling. ILI's don't smile very much.

    I actually place a lot of faith in both of these typing methods and I'm puzzled that they so strongly disagree in your case.

    It might be time to return to the basics of Socionics and try to determine which functions you prefer to use.

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    I think you are LII-Ti , I watched your video just out of curiosity, I thought you were ILI. 538 tritype =triple competence,so I don't think that valuing competence over intelligence means necessarily Te>Ti. I think your video is dominated by Ti, sure I can see some Ni and little bit Ne, Te, however I think you process everything for the sake of Ti.

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    From how/what you write on the forum and your emotional distance and demeanour, LII. Take it with a cupful of salt.

    PS: Since it seems that you've been grumbling about your j/p preference, catalysed by the VI of Sol, maybe look at some users which he has characterised as p type (he types me SLI, and i agree with him at the current moment). Comparing my expression to yours, i am a bit less controlled physically, i'm less specific and i circulate more in speech and thought, i usually don't separate my internal states from myself and i sit in melancholia, i repeat myself and hang on to words not bound by rationality or rules to a certain extent, and i am 'drooping', something usually seen as characteristic of Ip types.

    You sit upright, you are focused (albeit distant, Ti-Ne?), you seem a bit intense and rigid. (to me)
    You speak with confidence and clarity, bound by regulations and systematicity, essence and it's relation to each other are not blurred, there is not much questioning or doubt (something more common in Ip types, afaik), although openness and multifacetedness is very clear. (Ne ego) Investigation is separated, not a part of you.
    You are clean looking and have an ordered appearance (in contrast, Ip types are often too internal to notice such)
    You bear the format, self-control and regulation of a theoretical Ij type, and logic+intuition is pretty apparent.
    Last edited by para; 03-25-2019 at 06:16 PM.

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    Between the two I would think ILI. Definitely some sort of introverted thinker though.

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    critical and detailed Sounds ILI. Diverse interest on potential capitalization even more like ILI. Uneven performance depending on mood points towards irrationality. Doubts and wants to become stronger confident more like ILI. As in generating new views you seem to be quite stifled as you want to be sure. Sardonic etc. .



    ILI af.
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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    I think you are LII-Ti , I watched your video just out of curiosity, I thought you were ILI. 538 tritype =triple competence,so I don't think that valuing competence over intelligence means necessarily Te>Ti. I think your video is dominated by Ti, sure I can see some Ni and little bit Ne, Te, however I think you process everything for the sake of Ti.
    Triple competence is actually 531 but double competence is plenty. And I'm relatively uncertain about my gut fix anyways, so I could indeed be triple competence. Do you mind giving some examples of my cognition being dominated by Ti? What, in particular, do you see is Ti? (In case it isn't obvious, I'm trying to edge out your typing methods as much as I am trying to understand how you think).

    That being said, if I am indeed LII, I'd almost certainly be Ti subtype despite the irrational aspects of my personality. It's between LII-Ti and ILI-Te, mostly.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, @FarDraft, from your user name and your convos in chat and the phrasing of the writing in your posts, you resemble most of the LII's whom I know and none of the ILI's whom I know.

    However, you don't look like any of those LII's, but instead rather strongly resemble a couple of the ILI's. Except for the smiling. ILI's don't smile very much.

    I actually place a lot of faith in both of these typing methods and I'm puzzled that they so strongly disagree in your case.

    It might be time to return to the basics of Socionics and try to determine which functions you prefer to use.
    Well that's unfortunate. Could it be that I'm younger than most people you meet and so VI isn't as effective? If not, then, yeah, back to the drawing board.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    From how you write on the forum and your general demeanour, LII. Take it with a cupful of salt.
    Ok, thanks. I will take the salt and eat it, dying from hypernatremia shortly thereafter.

    EDIT: Now that you've edited your post. I take most of what you say as compliments, which could be an indication of Ij preferences, and I have to relate with pretty much all that you say. I am very precise and systematic in the way that I speak so as to not miss anything important or misrepresent my own ideas. My appearance fluctuates. I prefer my hair long, but I don't know how to deal with it, meaning that it tends to mess itself up naturally. I am very planned and structured, though my mood can influence my productivity during the day, as I mentioned in the video. I'm very detached from others and prefer my speech be impersonal since I don't like to get too close to others.

    Here's where it gets messy. My speech is naturally more confident than I am. I narrow down possibilities by considering more information, but I can't be certain about it since that comes when the information fits together. My sister told me when I was about 12 that I tend to speak too impersonally/forcefully. For example, when ordering food, I didn't smile or say please. No clue how that fits in, but it exists.

    Your analysis provides me great insight. It has definitely been helpful.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-25-2019 at 06:36 PM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Ok, thanks. I will take the salt and eat it, dying from hypernatremia shortly thereafter.
    I updated my post - looks like you're getting a second helping then. Enjoy.

    Also you sound like a fairly reflected and purposeful individual, and you usually are constructive and systematic forum-wise. It's nice to see (i can't reach quite the same ideal, as your constructiveness is far too inclusive and helpful to others for my liking ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    Between the two I would think ILI. Definitely some sort of introverted thinker though.
    Yeah, IXTx I have no doubt at this point. Most likely logical subtype. What points you towards ILI over LII? Impression? Specific words? I'm starting to be more convinced of LII, so I'd like to know.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    I get the impression from LII's that they want protection. Lots of protection. And cheery people.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    Sincerely yours,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    critical and detailed Sounds ILI. Diverse interest on potential capitalization even more like ILI. Uneven performance depending on mood points towards irrationality. Doubts and wants to become stronger confident more like ILI. As in generating new views you seem to be quite stifled as you want to be sure. Sardonic etc. .



    ILI af.
    I'd agree with almost everything, though I'm not sure how much I overstated the "wanting to become more confident" part. I suck at talking to people informally, which is mainly what I meant. It makes it difficult for me to make friends or connections with the opposite sex, which I know will haunt me down the line. I also have frequent doubts about my own abilities and so a push from someone to show me that I don't completely suck is usually what it takes. This sounds like Se DS rather than PoLR, I realize. My Taekwondo coach was most likely some gamma extrovert, and she continually pushed me to believe in myself and crap. Same with my mother, but she's probably some Fe base.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-25-2019 at 06:39 PM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Yeah, IXTx I have no doubt at this point. Most likely logical subtype. What points you towards ILI over LII? Impression? Specific words? I'm starting to be more convinced of LII, so I'd like to know.
    Visually, you don't look LII to me, but you do look similar to many people I've seen typed as ILI. Just my first impression though, make of that what you will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moou View Post
    Visually, you don't look LII to me, but you do look similar to many people I've seen typed as ILI. Just my first impression though, make of that what you will.
    So two people have said I look like ILI (you and Adam). Sol says I look LII, though. Interesting. I'll see how to integrate VI as I learn more about it. I'm a complete noob in that area.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Well that's unfortunate. Could it be that I'm younger than most people you meet and so VI isn't as effective? If not, then, yeah, back to the drawing board.
    Actually, my database of faces for VI mainly consists of people I've seen on this site, and in the pictures and videos of people whom the people here post as type examples. This actually has made it harder for me to VI-type people who are much older than 30. With older people, I tend to go by their continuous voice and body movements. Often I don't "see" which type they are for months, and then one day it'll click.

    In any case, I'm slowly broadening out and I'm seeing that there are some things in people's faces that don't change much with age, assuming that they aren't mental, starving, derelict or extremely obese.

    IMO, your "voice", by which I mean the patterns in your speech, seems to be extremely LII. The main features are long sentence lengths, elaborate and lengthy paragraphs, a desire to be precise and correct, and a general coolness and an aversion to engaging in emotional or triggering behavior that I associate with LII's.

    Contrast that with Capitalist Pig's succinct *farts* in chat, or his greeting to a new member which said "Whose sock puppet are you?" Right out of the door, the ILI's that I know are right in your face. The LII's are more circumspect.

    But, that's just my impression. As I said, typing based on preferred functions is probably best, and as a Te user rather than a Ti-user, I'm not great at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Actually, my database of faces for VI mainly consists of people I've seen on this site, and in the pictures and videos of people whom the people here post as type examples. This actually has made it harder for me to VI-type people who are much older than 30. With older people, I tend to go by their continuous voice and body movements. Often I don't "see" which type they are for months, and then one day it'll click.

    In any case, I'm slowly broadening out and I'm seeing that there are some things in people's faces that don't change much with age, assuming that they aren't mental, starving, derelict or extremely obese.

    IMO, your "voice", by which I mean the patterns in your speech, seems to be extremely LII. The main features are long sentence lengths, elaborate and lengthy paragraphs, a desire to be precise and correct, and a general coolness and an aversion to engaging in emotional or triggering behavior that I associate with LII's.

    Contrast that with Capitalist Pig's succinct *farts* in chat, or his greeting to a new member which said "Whose sock puppet are you?" Right out of the door, the ILI's that I know are right in your face. The LII's are more circumspect.

    But, that's just my impression. As I said, typing based on preferred functions is probably best, and as a Te user rather than a Ti-user, I'm not great at that.
    Ok, then. My initial thought when you said that ILI's are right in your face was the introduction of L from death note. If you haven't seen it, after the detectives reveal their identities, he pretends to shoot them and says "BANG! If I were Kira [Killer] you would be dead by now, Mr. Soichiro Yagami". I'm pretty convinced he's ILI, and that example seems to highlight the ILI "speech nature", if I'm understanding correctly. I'm not really like that. Maybe if I get to know you better, I'd be more like that, but I'm much more distant from from the onset.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Ok, then. My initial thought when you said that ILI's are right in your face was the introduction of L from death note. If you haven't seen it, after the detectives reveal their identities, he pretends to shoot them and says "BANG! If I were Kira [Killer] you would be dead by now, Mr. Soichiro Yagami". I'm pretty convinced he's ILI, and that example seems to highlight the ILI "speech nature", if I'm understanding correctly. I'm not really like that. Maybe if I get to know you better, I'd be more like that, but I'm much more distant from from the onset.
    It occurs to me that this illustrates the difference between Se-seeking and Si-seeking. Se-valuers are going to deal in (seek out, express, demonstrate) personal power relationships, and Si-valuers are going to deal in personal comfort relationships.

    "L", as you described him, is presenting Se personal force ("bang") with Ni "If I were Kira", but his use of Se is clumsy and disorienting to those he's trying to impress. His imaginative use of Ni is more effective as an argument.
    An Se-dom wouldn't threaten. They would just act.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-25-2019 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Triple competence is actually 531 but double competence is plenty. And I'm relatively uncertain about my gut fix anyways, so I could indeed be triple competence. Do you mind giving some examples of my cognition being dominated by Ti? What, in particular, do you see is Ti? (In case it isn't obvious, I'm trying to edge out your typing methods as much as I am trying to understand how you think).
    Everyone can say anything to describe themselves, I think that's why it is important to see how did they say it. Your sentences are built in Ti fashion, they are logically correct, consistent rather than giving factual information. I actually didn't see you giving factual information just to sake of giving factual information, however, of course you used Te for the sake of Ti and this is how a person uses their ignoring function.

    Each IE comes up with different intonation, you can analyze them according to +/- signs and their positions. Each persons behave differently when they process these IEs. You can observe and detect the similarities. I find it hard to describe, I can say that ILI sounds much more concrete than you, you sound more complex than ILI. Between I think I sound more vague than you. If I have to give example to visual things, you look upwards when you try to catch your thoughts, sometimes you loose track, you seem more expressive when you talk about certain things that you find interesting.

    I am also going to mention about our differences since I think we share the same type. My eyes moves/dart around much more often, I seem more expressive/playful/welcoming compared to you. I think LIIs who have 7 in their tritypes seem more expressive/playful/welcoming than me.

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    ESE-Fe 3w4 so/sx...your energy is too glib for a 5w6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    ESE-Fe 3w4 so/sx...your energy is too glib for a 5w6.
    Are you serious?
    Edit: I'll keep an open mind, but I severely doubt it.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    3w4s can present themselves as any type. What I'm seeing from you is the presentation of an intellectual persona. That, in itself, is not enough to catch an ILI or LII or 5w6 typing from an expert like myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Are you serious?
    Edit: I'll keep an open mind, but I severely doubt it.
    I'm gonna assume they aren't. The referring to self as an expert and the baseless typings with no explanations kinda give it away. I'd just ignore if I were you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    I'm gonna assume they aren't. The referring to self as an expert and the baseless typings with no explanations kinda give it away. I'd just ignore if I were you.
    I'm intrigued at this point. When I have the time, I'll probably question him myself. I have considered type 3 in the past, but I realized I only related to the superficial aspects of it (care about presentation, success, etc.). I have the motivations but it isn't my core type. I also don't try to portray myself as an intellectual at all. I genuinely like math and physics and love to solve problems. But we'll see what happens.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I'm intrigued at this point. When I have the time, I'll probably question him myself. I have considered type 3 in the past, but I realized I only related to the superficial aspects of it (care about presentation, success, etc.). I have the motivations but it isn't my core type. I also don't try to portray myself as an intellectual at all. I genuinely like math and physics and love to solve problems. But we'll see what happens.
    I'm just warnin ya, don't get ya hopes up. I've already questioned him twice with no answers

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    you'd better typed people IRL and checked to what types IR effects point

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    3w4s can present themselves as any type. What I'm seeing from you is the presentation of an intellectual persona. That, in itself, is not enough to catch an ILI or LII or 5w6 typing from an expert like myself.
    If you feel as though I'm presenting an intellectual persona, then so be it. Impressions are subjective and so there's nothing I can do to change your mind. In fact, the entirety of "impression-based typing" works like that, which is one of its downsides if the typer isn't willing to consider more information. I don't know if you're openminded or not. Don't take that as an insult. I want to get to the bottom of your typing, which is why I'm responding in the first place.

    I see myself as a smart person (and I have frequent doubts about that as well), but I don't think I ever claimed to be or suggested that I am an intellectual. The questions were asking what I am doing and what I like to do. I am doing math and physics and I like to solve problems. Perhaps I was a bit arrogant in my phrasing of the answers, but the answers stand nonetheless. In reflection of what I've wanted to do with my life (something I've had to do a lot given the decisions I have to make at my age), I realized that solving problems is what I care about. I want to learn things but also apply them to interesting problems. While I'm obviously not doing that 24/7, I try to improve my skills in those areas because it's what I like. That's the honest truth. If my presentation led you to believe that I'm trying to be some "intellectual", then I apologize that I was misleading.

    I'm also not completely against your 3w4 typing. I considered 3w4 as a potential type before (alongside 6w5 and 1w9). However, if we're basing type on the core fear and motivations, 3, 6, nor 1 fit it as well as 5 did. I'm not an id base type nor am I a reactive base type nor am I a superego base type, which are three reasons (among many) why I settled against 3, 6, or 1. However, I knew I still had the 6 and 3 motivation. Thus, I settled on a 6 wing (influences 5 motivations/behaviour) and 3 fix (secondary coping strategy/secondary motivation). I think this is a reasonable solution. If you have other evidence to indicate type 3, let me know since I'm willing to open up enneagram again if there's a reason to do so (I'm mostly uncertain about gut fix, though some of your comments indicate you dislike tritype).

    What I don't understand is your ESE typing. That would entail a number of things that are simply untrue about myself. Firstly, I'm not Fe base. Genuine emotional expression I find to be very difficult. It's one of my biggest weaknesses. I have a good understanding of how others are feeling by reading their words/body language, but I don't know if it's strong enough or if I care enough for Fe to be my leading function. Moreover, I'm not even sure if that's related to Fe or Fi since the differences seem to be subtle. Secondly, I'm not Ti seeking. Logic, structure, systematizing, categorizing, etc. have been strengths of mine for quite a while. In comparison to my family (mostly F types), I'm much better (again, I'm not trying to be arrogant - it's just the truth. They are better than me at a number of things.). My family all attest to this, with my parents both having said that I am a very critical thinker, when I was required to fill out a form of my strengths in my leadership class. To be Ti seeking would be completely contrary to these observations. Thirdly, I'm not Ni PoLR. Time management, imagining likely causes or effects, detail orientation, and noticing contradictions are strengths of mine rather than weaknesses. I also like to see these strengths in others. In fact, I frequently guide my friends on the optimal path to take in the future since they are often uncertain of it. I can provide you no proof of these statements, so you'd have to trust that I'm being honest, which you may or may not. Lastly (of the points I can think off the top of my head), I am not passionate or engaged enough to have 4D Se and Fe. I'm very distant from people and prefer to contemplate in my head rather than engage with things regularly. If unperturbed, I can be left to my own inertia for a long while, which is a big weakness of mine. That's what I meant by my productivity being somewhat controlled by my mood. I'm able to construct plans and schedules, but sometimes the execution of those plans I find too difficult.

    My questions are basically as follows: why do you type me ESE besides the impression? Do you think I'm lying about what I said in the video? What "tipped you off" that made it seem like I am projecting an "intellectual" persona?

    All of this is only of use to you if you're willing to trust that I'm not lying. I have no reason to lie since I'm not out to project an image of myself but rather to determine my true type. If I were out to create a positive image, then I would have stuck with MBTI, calling myself the "mastermind" and trolling on reddit forums to assert my "intellectual dominance". I could have simply denounced Sol's test or typings, which led me to reopen the possibility that I'm LII in the first place. I could have prepared a script for this video to make myself look better, or denounced your typings as invalid. However, I don't do these things because I believe that people have things of value to say, and I want to listen to them before denouncing them. I've been criticized of denouncing things too early in the past (as I mentioned in my video), and I don't like that about myself since it means that I'm not able to consider as much information as I can. It prevents me from getting closer to the truth, which is a great fear of mine (another reason for typing myself 5).

    If you believe I am lying after this post, then so be it. However, I ask you to provide me more evidence in support of your claims since they are so drastic in comparison to the norm. I'll consider them more if I think the evidence is valid and the reasoning is sound.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-26-2019 at 02:55 AM. Reason: Additional comments
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Since K4 rarely feels inclined to explain his typings you can get a general idea of his method in these two posts. @FarDraft @queentiger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    VI has already been proven with samples of identical twins. Identical twins have the same micro-expressions. To date, opponents of VI have not been able to disprove VI by showing examples of identical twins where the vibe is totally different. I put the challenge out there but nobody has been able to meet it. You will never find a set of identical twins where one vibes like henry kissinger and the other vibes like Jim Carrey. More than that, identical twins tend to know what the other is thinking and they can easily finish each other's thoughts/sentences. It goes beyond just a sibling bond.

    Not every person of the same type will be identical twins, of course. So it becomes a question of where to draw the line. That's where VI has to be tempered by common sense. The Intelligent Design Method of Typing is just that, VI + Common Sense. That's where reading up on these people is a good way to find out where one type ends and another begins. You can find a chain of VI proofs in the beta examples thread, where I build one example off previous examples. So very often, the same personality markers appear in people that VI alike. VI is also effective because it undercuts all those socially constructed differences/similarities between people, like race, gender, status, occupation. It also undercuts other factors such as differences in IQ.

    VI opponents point out that identical twins can often be very different from each other and identical twins often tout their differences. But the desire to individuate is very common in human nature. It may be more of a hang up for identical twins such that they can develop an aversion to their replica. So they find areas of differences, and intentionally cultivate areas of differences, from their twin as if to emphasize that they are not like each other. In other words, they attempt to exert conscious control over their personality in order to distinguish themselves from their twin. And some can be successful at it. But mother nature has the final word on it....the vibe doesn't lie, as vibe and micro-expressions speak more directly to the nature of your personality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    I also use the Open Borders Approach, another one I coined. I am speaking to two fundamentally different views of Socionics.

    The Open Borders approach dissolves the Quadra Values mythology….”drains the swamp.” Socionics New Wave still recognizes Quadras but in the same way that England recognizes the royal family. We will call them King and Queen but they don’t have any actual power. Although there may be some values loosely associated with each quadra, there's absolutely no rational basis for treating Quadra Values as an axiomatic principle of Socionics. It's ludicrous to use it as starting point.

    The Closed Borders view is the one that is held by pretty much every Socionics School of Thought except for Socionics New Wave. That is, the view – religiously held by some -- that there is such a thing as Quadra Values and that one can or should begin with quadra when typing. So in the classic methodology, first you type Quadra based on Quadra values, whatever that means, and then you narrow it down by one of four types, either through VI or one of the less objective, less serious methods of typing.

    Consequently, the VI breakdown for each Socionics type laid down by Socionics New Wave is much better than the breakdown proferred by Socionics.Com. Even though both schools of thought recognize that VI is superior to all other methods of typing, pinterest.com/socionics's breakdown is not inhibited by a Closed Borders Approach. The Open/Closed Borders difference may not be the precise or only reason why the New Wave breakdown is better. However, I can affirmatively state that the New Wave breakdown would not have come out so great if it had been based in the more arbitrary Closed Borders Method.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Since K4 rarely feels inclined to explain his typings you can get a general idea of his method in these two posts. @FarDraft @queentiger
    Thanks for posting this. It seems as though his method claims to severely undercut the cognitive basis of socionics, meaning that any of the points brought up in this thread in favour of ILI or LII wouldn't shift his typing. If he doesn't respond to my response, I might try again or pm him since he made some pretty serious accusations. It goes beyond typing me something that doesn't make sense into the realm of creating pretences for some false narrative. I demand answers. If that doesn't work, then I'll have no choice but to denounce his typing as ludicrous, especially when faced with a mountain of opposing evidence. We'll see what happens.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-26-2019 at 06:58 PM. Reason: precision
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Thanks for posting this. It seems as though his method severely undercuts the cognitive basis of socionics, meaning that any of the points brought up in this thread in favour of ILI or LII wouldn't shift his typing. If he doesn't respond to my response, I might try again or pm him since he made some pretty serious accusations. It goes beyond typing me something that doesn't make sense into the realm of creating pretences for some false narrative. I demand answers. If that doesn't work, then I'll have no choice but to denounce his typing as ludicrous, especially when faced with a mountain of opposing evidence. We'll see what happens.
    Haha you're a lot more reluctant to denounce his typing as ludicrous than me. I've already done so lol. VI is mostly bs imo anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    Haha you're a lot more reluctant to denounce his typing as ludicrous than me. I've already done so lol. VI is mostly bs imo anyway.
    It's for two reasons: one, because he's made such accusations, which intrigue me. I'm always worried that I'm not presenting myself as honestly as possible. I have the 3-ish goal of being successful, and I know that if that goal surpasses honesty, then the image you create becomes how you perceive yourself which leads to problems down the line. If he can explain, in detail, why he feels as though I'm presenting an image, then I can take steps to either stop doing those things which lead to the presentation or at least be aware of the nonverbal ticks that I have. Two, he has a lot of experience in typing, which leads me to trust him more than someone who is simply starting out. Perhaps this is an argument by authority fallacy, but I think it's justified when there is no real measure of determining who is trustworthy and who isn't within socionics. People who have many years of observing others are more likely to be consistent with their typings, and so I want to take his opinion into consideration.

    EDIT: It's the same reason I considered Sol's opinion seriously. His typing was much less radical than this one (LII), but it was still very firm and based upon things I found to either be untrue or minor. I knew there were aspects of truth within it, though, since the evidence was consistent. It's only reasonable to do the same with this typing unless the evidence is fringe or the explanations are faulty.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-26-2019 at 06:56 PM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    It's for two reasons: one, because he's made such accusations, which intrigue me. I'm always worried that I'm not presenting myself as honestly as possible. I have the 3-ish goal of being successful, and I know that if that goal surpasses honesty, then the image you create becomes how you perceive yourself which leads to problems down the line. If he can explain, in detail, why he feels as though I'm presenting an image, then I can take steps to either stop doing those things which lead to the presentation or at least be aware of the nonverbal ticks that I have. Two, he has a lot of experience in typing, which leads me to trust him more than someone who is simply starting out. Perhaps this is an argument by authority fallacy, but I think it's justified when there is no real measure of determining who is trustworthy and who isn't within socionics. People who have many years of observing others are more likely to be consistent with their typings, and so I want to take his opinion into consideration.
    Well I did notice you mentioned 3, 1 and 5 as you identifying with in one of your posts so maybe you are core 5 with 3 and 1 also in your tritype?

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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    Well I did notice you mentioned 3, 1 and 5 as you identifying with in one of your posts so maybe you are core 5 with 3 and 1 also in your tritype?
    Like I've said, my gut fix is the most uncertain fix. The only reason I type an 8 gut fix is because I'm more reactive when it comes to moral actions. I don't have a set of moral principles like a 1 would but rather a circumstantial approach. That alone is not a strong argument. I could indeed have a 9 fix or 1 fix. Since the gut fix is such a weak aspect of my personality, only time will tell.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Like I've said, my gut fix is the most uncertain fix. The only reason I type an 8 gut fix is because I'm more reactive when it comes to moral actions. I don't have a set of moral principles like a 1 would but rather a circumstantial approach. That alone is not a strong argument. I could indeed have a 9 fix or 1 fix. Since the gut fix is such a weak aspect of my personality, only time will tell.
    It's interesting actually, I was always much more sure of my enneagram (Especially the core 3 part) than my type in any other system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Everyone can say anything to describe themselves, I think that's why it is important to see how did they say it. Your sentences are built in Ti fashion, they are logically correct, consistent rather than giving factual information. I actually didn't see you giving factual information just to sake of giving factual information, however, of course you used Te for the sake of Ti and this is how a person uses their ignoring function.

    Each IE comes up with different intonation, you can analyze them according to +/- signs and their positions. Each persons behave differently when they process these IEs. You can observe and detect the similarities. I find it hard to describe, I can say that ILI sounds much more concrete than you, you sound more complex than ILI. Between I think I sound more vague than you. If I have to give example to visual things, you look upwards when you try to catch your thoughts, sometimes you loose track, you seem more expressive when you talk about certain things that you find interesting.

    I am also going to mention about our differences since I think we share the same type. My eyes moves/dart around much more often, I seem more expressive/playful/welcoming compared to you. I think LIIs who have 7 in their tritypes seem more expressive/playful/welcoming than me.
    I'm not sure how I could have given factual information in the video in the first place. But I guess that if I were Te ego, I wouldn't figured out a way. Your comments make sense to me. However, like before, I'm conflicted since LIIs ignore Te and have alpha rather than gamma values. However, I don't think I ignore Te and my values have been stereotypically gamma since I was a kid, with alpha influence coming as I began to figure out what I liked. I also don't relate to a lot of things many Ti users say. For example, a few ILEs were saying how they disdain the mandatory physics lab course that they must take next year. They say "why do we need experiments? We can just do math!" I know it was half-joking, but I don't have that sentiment at all. Experiment and real-world facts are the basis by which we determine truth in systems that are not axiomatic. However, perhaps that's not Te valuing but just my being reasonable.

    If my type is LII, then the conclusions I would have to come to are that 1) general quadra values are less important than originally thought, 2) the ignoring function isn't truly "ignored". I'll look into those two aspects before I make a decision.

    All that being said, if the cognitive basis of socionics is to be respected, then unconscious actions must be taken into consideration - that includes writing/speaking style. That evidence points strongly towards 4D Ti, though I need to look at the precise usage of the demonstrative function to be certain about it being valued.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    I still think LII>ILI. You already know my opinion so I will make this short and focus on things that interested me and no one commented on.

    Your comments regarding what you need help with seems Fe seeking, or at least you seem to value Fe. Confidence, morale boosting, yelling, etc. I also remember you saying that you like public speaking and how much you engage in it. According to Gulenko, LII has trainable ethics, while ILI has trainable sensing.

    You said you get annoyed by false bravery, impulsive and reckless behavior. That doesn't sound like Se-valuing to me.

    I think you are right to consider Gamma. I know I do sometimes. But it's hard for me to see myself as ILI, I did consider LIE. I actually get typed ENTJ in MBTI sometimes. I relate to the business and ambitious side of Gamma a lot. I do think quadra values are important in the overall picture, but when you are considering two types that have similar strengths focusing on valued functions doesn't make sense, especially when those functions are strong in both types.

    The only thing I can add here is the fact that both Gamma and Alpha are democratic and individualistic quadras. So I have an appreciation for a lot of Gamma values that are not readily apparent.

    I know why you think the ignoring function is confusing and I've seen people do the same mistake. You have to remember Model A is a mental model. The ignoring function is also called the observing or limiting function. The thing to take away from that, is a person who has a Te ignoring function doesn't accept inputs from other people in that form, or does it reluctantly and in small amounts.

    They will however use the function themselves and apply a different approach, usually in tandem with Ti. Gulneko mentions an example of that but he attributes it to static vs dynamic. He says ILIs have better memory and command of facts, and they have an associative memory. While LIIs incorporate facts in a scheme or system of some sort, a Kinesthetic memory. LIIs can resist information that doesn't coincide with their understanding.

    So the ignoring function is strong and a person will usually use it a lot to support their base function. They are two sides of the same coin. The ignoring function is just much more conservative in terms of accepting outside input. That is how I see it.

    For reference: Gulenko made a video about LII vs ILI


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    I don't really see why this is necessary. Yes, you do use Ti quite a bit and are interested in a lot of the same areas an LII would be. Yet, you clearly preferred Se in your other video questionnaire. There was no reason to think you value Fe or Si. So the only reason there should be any kind of confusion is if quadra values simply aren't being considered properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Well, @FarDraft, from your user name and your convos in chat and the phrasing of the writing in your posts, you resemble most of the LII's whom I know and none of the ILI's whom I know.

    However, you don't look like any of those LII's, but instead rather strongly resemble a couple of the ILI's. Except for the smiling. ILI's don't smile very much.

    I actually place a lot of faith in both of these typing methods and I'm puzzled that they so strongly disagree in your case.

    It might be time to return to the basics of Socionics and try to determine which functions you prefer to use.
    I really wish you would stop doing this. Comparing people to people you know isn't a valid argument, especially when we have no reason to think you're typing those other people correctly in the first place. That and VI (essentially another example of comparison typing) are pretty much your only typing methods. I already gave a comprehensive "basics of socionics" answer in the other thread. (But careful, this method requires actually watching more than 30 seconds of the video.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    I still think LII>ILI. You already know my opinion so I will make this short and focus on things that interested me and no one commented on.

    Your comments regarding what you need help with seems Fe seeking, or at least you seem to value Fe. Confidence, morale boosting, yelling, etc. I also remember you saying that you like public speaking and how much you engage in it. According to Gulenko, LII has trainable ethics, while ILI has trainable sensing.

    You said you get annoyed by false bravery, impulsive and reckless behavior. That doesn't sound like Se-valuing to me.

    I think you are right to consider Gamma. I know I do sometimes. But it's hard for me to see myself as ILI, I did consider LIE. I actually get typed ENTJ in MBTI sometimes. I relate to the business and ambitious side of Gamma a lot. I do think quadra values are important in the overall picture, but when you are considering two types that have similar strengths focusing on valued functions doesn't make sense, especially when those functions are strong in both types.

    The only thing I can add here is the fact that both Gamma and Alpha are democratic and individualistic quadras. So I have an appreciation for a lot of Gamma values that are not readily apparent.

    I know why you think the ignoring function is confusing and I've seen people do the same mistake. You have to remember Model A is a mental model. The ignoring function is also called the observing or limiting function. The thing to take away from that, is a person who has a Te ignoring function doesn't accept inputs from other people in that form, or does it reluctantly and in small amounts.

    They will however use the function themselves and apply a different approach, usually in tandem with Ti. Gulneko mentions an example of that but he attributes it to static vs dynamic. He says ILIs have better memory and command of facts, and they have an associative memory. While LIIs incorporate facts in a scheme or system of some sort, a Kinesthetic memory. LIIs can resist information that doesn't coincide with their understanding.

    So the ignoring function is strong and a person will usually use it a lot to support their base function. They are two sides of the same coin. The ignoring function is just much more conservative in terms of accepting outside input. That is how I see it.

    For reference: Gulenko made a video about LII vs ILI
    Thanks for the further comments. Most of what you've written makes sense to me but three things don't. First, morale-boosting, confidence, yelling, etc. seems more like Se DS rather than Fe. I thought alpha SFs would be more sympathetic or comforting. Second, disliking reckless behaviour seems common for both ILI and LII. In fact, many descriptions talk about how the ILI consistently demands prudence from others because he finds that most actions lack sufficient foresight. This is the main reason why he's "the skeptic/critic", in the first place. Third, you say "when you are considering two types that have similar strengths focusing on valued functions doesn't make sense, especially when those functions are strong in both types." However, this seems to me like exactly what you should do since both types are strong in the same functions and so the difference in value is what sets them a part. For example, while both ILI and LII have 4D Ti, meaning that understanding logical systems should come with less difficulty for both, LIIs use Ti has their main means of processing information whereas ILIs don't. The difference in value distinguishes the two types.

    The way I use Te is as a tool for problem solving. I learn information I think to be useful to solve a problem and then I apply it. Oftentimes, this means that I initially don't have a firm understanding of where the information comes from, but I tend to investigate that on my own time, so that I can generalize the information to other situations (with precision kept in mind, of course). That, to me, sounds like Te serving Ti, which indicates LII. However, I've read the reddit summary of a video Gulenko made with Ben Vaserlan on the differences between ILI and LII, and it says that an ILI is focused on problem solving whereas an LII is focused on theory-building. If that's the case, then I have no doubt about being ILI since theory-building is secondary to me in nearly all respects. Moreover, my very first "type me" thread (since deleted, but I've saved a copy) was asking about where associative memories fit into the theory of socionics since I had realized that my memory is very associative. That coincidence provides evidence for ILI as well.

    Since model G is trying to reconcile MBTI with socionics (with INTJ = ILI and INTP = LII; Gulenko makes this clear in the model G type diagrams), it would only make sense for me to type ILI in model G since I relate to INTJ more so than INTP in MBTI. However, that system isn't model A, and so I don't think my TIM should be based on it.

    The case for LII has been made very clear to me at this point by you and others. Thanks for that. My next source of theoretical investigation lies in the id block since that seems to be where a lot of my confusion lies, as you noted about the ignoring function. Practically speaking, I'll probably wait to type myself since I haven't met enough SEEs or ESEs to type myself on the basis of IR. That would be a very important factor to consider. If I do type myself ILI, I'd have to be an unusually rational one, which is what leads me to doubt the typing in the first place. To justify that, I'd probably have to apply DCNH, being the normalizing subtype, and I have no clue how reliable that theory is.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-27-2019 at 08:54 PM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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