Friedrich Nietzsche's type (old discussion)

[munenori2]

INFp, possibly EIE, but I like INFp quite a bit more.

[silverchris9]

lol @ you posing as "self-actualized" from your parents' basement.

I live in a van down by the river now. I'm moving up in life.

I was boooooooooooornn by the river, in a little tent. And just like the river I've been running, ever since.


Nietzsche is an Se-worshiping cockbottom.

EDIT: And his elevation of the spirit/energy/personality over morals/ethics/character is stupid, based on logical incoherence almost satirically painted up as philosophy. He throws in a few faux-Kantian tricks that didn't even work when Kant did them, and the whole thing is just ridiculous. He comes at things from a very different angle, and reaches some brilliant conclusions, but they are ultimately one-sided, not the complete picture, not the well-tempered truth.

[WVBRY]

EDIT: And his elevation of the spirit/energy/personality over morals/ethics/character is stupid, based on logical incoherence almost satirically painted up as philosophy. He throws in a few faux-Kantian tricks that didn't even work when Kant did them, and the whole thing is just ridiculous. He comes at things from a very different angle, and reaches some brilliant conclusions, but they are ultimately one-sided, not the complete picture, not the well-tempered truth.

The well tempered truth? What is that like when you buy people into thinking you're wise with ? Because I cant think of one philosophers ideas that this critcism of yours couldnt apply to. And what faux-Kantian tricks are you referring to exactly?

[Gilly]

Not well-tempered? Nietzsche successfully predicted numerous cultural trends that have played out exactly as he said they would. The spiritual truths he demonstrates are self-evident.

[silverchris9]

"Well-tempered truth" is an allusion to "the well-tempered clavier" implying balance, calibration, tuning, etc. Like any allusion, it is designed to bring to mind multiple meanings, but I think in this case, the emphasis especially is on the idea that there is a correct sort of calibration for the mind as well as the clavier (precursor to the piano), and that Nietzsche's mind was calibrated to a different scale, (at)tuned to different frequencies. So, while it produced beautiful cognitive music, that music simply doesn't "sync up" with the real world; it reveals a side or an aspect of the world, not the whole thing. The same complaint can be made of almost all Beta NF writers, or even just good writers in general.

(Bad writers occasionally seem as though they are telling the whole truth, but that's simply because they're telling us things we already know, and we like to assume that we know the truth.)

Shakespeare may be an exception to this rule because his representation of human interaction is so convincing that we think Iago is a real person, and thus, that his world is the real world. I'm just parroting Harold Bloom, but it's an interesting thought.

Nietzsche is right about a lot of things, but his conclusions are unbalanced. Extremely accurate when applied to one side of reality, extremely inaccurate when applied to another. He has a great propensity to recognize the power and the glory of the blond beast, but the inability to see the power and the glory of the self-denying saint, aided by a pathetic rationalization about how the ascetic spirit comes from some ugly source or another (as if an ugly source taints its own result! As if flowers did not spring up from dirt!)


When I talk about pseudo-Kantian tricks, in my mind I'm thinking of an analogy between two very specific passages in works by Nietzsche and Kant, respectively, both on the subject of morality. In a passage in Kant's metaphysics of morals, when he talks about the categorical imperative, he is providing examples of situations where the categorical imperative can be applied. In one such situation, Kant claims not that the person would not hypothetically like for the maxim of his action to be applied universally, but that he is incapable of willing for the maxim to be applied universally. Basically, he makes his example work on a technicality.

Similarly, when Nietzsche is talking about the strong class and how the weak cannot blame the strong for being strong, he uses a pseudo-Kantian trick to argue that the strong are strong and have no capacity to be not strong, so it is impossible for them not to prey on the weak. It's in the Geneology of Morals.

Also Nietzsche was an anti-semite. Nyah nyah.

[Gilly]

Are you retarded? Nietzsche WAS a self-denying saint.

[1981slater]

Ni-EIE

[strrrng]

Not well-tempered? Nietzsche successfully predicted numerous cultural trends that have played out exactly as he said they would. The spiritual truths he demonstrates are self-evident.

that's partially because he was initiated. the ubermensch fantasy is proper in his own place. he was also an agoraphobic opium addict.

[krieger]

would those of you who think the forum is continually going downhill please look at the first page in this thread and snap to your senses.

[WVBRY]

Okay, I think I understand it from your perpective now Silvechris, but Neitzsche being an anti- semite Im not sure about. I do know he wrote some anti-jewish things, but he also broke off his relationship with Wagner because of the latter's anti-semitism.

[Morcheeba]

Are you retarded? Nietzsche WAS a self-denying saint.

Haha, I was thinking the same thing when I read his post.

[HERO]

I still think Nietzsche was Beta NF (most likely IEI, although I can't completely rule out EIE). If not that, then LII [Negativist (and Involutionary/Result)] is not entirely improbable.

- from THE PHILOSOPHERS: Their Lives and the Nature of their Thought by BEN-AMI SCHARFSTEIN, pp. 349-350: In my accounts of individual philosophers I have adopted the psychoanalytic view that a child’s idea of God is likely to be modelled on its father . . . it strikes me as significant that the four philosophers, Hume, Nietzsche, Russel, and Sartre, who lost their fathers earliest in life are all atheistic or close to it.

- pp. 357-358: Of course, sado-masochism is a form of ambivalence, and, of our group of philosophers, most evidently characterizes Pascal, Rousseau, Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, and Sartre. In each of these, with the exception of Wittgenstein, the personal sado-masochism is immediately perceived in his philosophy as well. It sometimes takes the form I have called ‘stuttering’. That is, philosophers such as Pascal, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, and Wittgenstein tend to write in aphorisms, notes, or fragments, as if the effort to express themselves coherently cannot withstand their powerful contrary impulses, but comes to more natural expression in spasmodic writing that resembles a dialogue of perpetually warring selves.


- from Nietzsche: A Philosophical Biography by Rudiger Safranski (translated by Shelley Frisch); pp. 19-22 [The Drama of Disillusionment]: [Nietzsche] hoped the music would never stop, but it did, and he faced the quandary of how to carry on with his existence. On December 18, 1871, Nietzsche traveled from Basel to Mannheim to hear Wagnerian music conducted by the composer. Upon his return to Basel, he wrote to his friend Erwin Rohde: “Everything that...cannot be understood in relation to music engenders...downright aversion and disgust in me. And when I returned home from the concert in Mannheim, I actually had a peculiarly exaggerated weary dread of everyday reality, because it no longer seemed real to me, but ominous”.
His return to a daily routine devoid of music was a problem that Nietzsche pondered incessantly. There is such a thing as life after music, he deliberated, but can it be endured? “Without music, life would be an error” (6, 64; TI [Twilight of the Idols] “Maxims and Arrows” 33).
Music, Nietzsche declared, imparts moments of true feeling”. It could be claimed that his entire philosophy was an endeavor to cling to life even when the music stopped. Although Nietzsche attempted to make music with language, thought, and ideas as much as humanly possible, displeasure was his constant companion. “It should have sung, this ‘new soul’ – and not spoken!”, Nietzsche wrote in a later self-critical preface to The Birth of Tragedy. His discontentment continued to dog him. Among his fragments written in early 1888, the following remark appears: “The fact is ‘that I am so sad’; the problem ‘I don’t know what that means’ ... “The tale from the distant past’”. Nietzsche was on the trail of Heinrich Heine, recalling lines from Heine’s famous poem “The Lorelei," in which a beautiful woman seated on the cliffs lures sailors to their deaths with the allure of her song. Having heard the siren song, Nietzsche grew dissatisfied with a culture in which the sirens had fallen silent and the Lorelei was nothing more than a tale from the past. His philosophy originated in postsirenian melancholy. He strove to preserve at least the spirit of music in words and an echo of farewell while tuning up for the possible return of music, so that the "bow" of life "does not break".
Over the course of many years Nietzsche used the music of Wagner to gauge his aesthetic pleasure. After hearing the overture to the Meistersinger for the first time, before his personal encounter with Wagner, he wrote to Rohde: "Every fiber and nerve of my being is tingling. It has been a long time since I experienced such a sustained feeling of rapture". This feeling was heightened when he improvised on the piano. He could surrender himself to the lure of the piano for hours at a time, forgetting himself and the world. One famous and infamous scene described by his childhood friend Paul Deussen refers to this rapture. "Nietzsche," reported Deussen, "traveled alone to Cologne one day, took a guided tour of the sights, and then asked the tour guide to take him to a restaurant. The tour guide took him instead to a house of ill repute. Nietzsche told me the next day, 'I suddenly saw myself surrounded by a half dozen apparitions in tinsel and gauze, staring at me expectantly. I was speechless at first, but then I went instinctively to a piano, as if it were the only being in the group with a soul, and struck several chords. They broke the spell and I hurried outside...' ".
Music, even when limited to a few improvised chords, triumphed over lust, In 1877, Nietzsche devised a hierarchy of things according to the degree of pleasure they afforded. Musical improvisation was placed at the pinnacle, followed by Wagnerian music. Lust was placed two rungs lower. In the bordello in Cologne, two chords were all he needed to transport him to another realm. They ushered in what he hoped would be a never-ending flow of improvisation and begin as though they had long since begun, and when they stop, they are still not truly finished. "The unending melody -- you lost the shore and surrender to the waves". Waves, which spill ceaselessly onto the shore, carrying you and pulling you along, and perhaps even pulling you under and submerging you, were Nietzsche's symbol of the depths of the world. "This is how the waves live -- just as we live, the desirers! I will say no more . . . how could I ever betray you! Because -- heed my words! -- I know you and your secret, I know your type! You and I are of one and the same type! -- You and I, we have one and the same secret!". One of these secrets is the intimate relationship of wave, music, and the great game of life that Goethe called "expire and expand." It is a game of grow and fade, rule and be overruled. Music transports you into the heart of the world, but in such a way that you do not die in it. In The Birth of Tragedy, Nietzsche called this ecstatic life in music the "rapture of the Dionysian state, which eradicates the ordinary bounds and limits of existence". As long as the rapture persists, the everyday world is carried off, only to be regarded with disgust when it returns to one's consciousness. The sobered ecstatic succumbs to a "will-nullifying frame of mind". At this moment, he resembles Hamlet, who is similarly revolted by the world and can no longer brace himself to act.


- from The Poetry of Nietzsche: The unwilling seducer

He casts an empty word to wile away the time:
Into the blue -- and yet a woman fell for it.

- from Nietzsche: A Philosophical Biography by Rudiger Safranski (translated by Shelley Frisch); pp. 243-244 (Chapter 10): Nietzsche remained in Genoa until the end of March 1882. Spring had begun, and the weather was balmy. Normally, he would have returned to more northerly climes at this point, but instead he made the odd choice of traveling to Messina, Sicily, on a moment's notice. He was the only passenger on a freighter. This trip gave rise to a great deal of speculation. Was he hoping for an unexpected encounter with Wagner, who had moved into his vacation lodgings nearby? Was it the homoerotic colony on the outskirts of Messina that attracted him, in particular the photographer Wilhelm von Gloeden, who was then famous for his pictures of naked young men cavorting in poses that recalled Greek antiquity? Interpreters of Nietzsche who focus on his latent homosexuality suspect that this was the case. Certainly, he associated the south with emancipated sensuality and relaxation. He was happy to keep dreaming the dream of the "blissful islands." In Zarathustra he sent "sweeping-winged longing" out into "hotter souths than sculptors ever dreamed of: to places where gods in their dances are ashamed of all clothes" (4, 247; Z Third Part, "On Old and New Tablets" 2). The enchanting experience of hearing Bizet's opera Carmen for the first time in Genoa in late November 1881 had given flight to Nietzsche's fantasies of the south.

- from The Peacock and the Buffalo: The Poetry of Nietzsche; p. 125 (To Hafis):

To Hafis

A drinking verse, or a water drinker's question

The inn that you built,
Is greater than any house,
The drinks that you brewed,
The world could never drink.
The bird, who once was a Phoenix,
Lives with you, as a guest,
The mouse, who gave birth to a mountain,
Who -- is almost like you!
You are all and nothing, are the inn and the wine,
Phoenix, mountain and mouse,
You always withdraw into yourself
You always fly out of your self --
You are the height of gloom,
You are all deep illusions,
You are all drunken drinkers,
-- What for, why wine for you?

- from The Peacock and the Buffalo: The Poetry of Nietzsche; p. 159:

For Darwin's disciples

Do these brave Englishmen,
These mediocre intellects,
Name you as 'Philosophy'?
Set Darwin besides Goethe,
And call out: Injured majesty --
Majestic genius!

- from Wagner and Nietzsche by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (Translated from the German by Joachim Neugroschel); pp. 33-34: Wagner's intention of exploiting Nietzsche's literary talent for his own cause was concealed from the unsophisticated scholar. The concordance of the two men in regard to Schopenhauer actually deluded Nietzsche into believing there might be some philosophical gains. He wrote to Carl von Gersdorff: "What's more, I've found a man who, like no one else, reveals the image of what Schopenhauer calls genius and who is completely imbued with that wondrously introspective philosophy. This man is none other than Richard Wagner, and you mustn't believe any judgments about him in the press, in the writings of musical scholars, etc. No one knows him and no one can judge him because the rest of the world stands on a different foundation and is not at home in his atmosphere. He is filled with such an absolute ideality, such a deep and poignant humanity, such a sublime earnestness of life, that when I'm in his presence I feel I'm in the presence of the divine. How many days have I already spent at the charming country estate on Lake Vierwaldstatt, and that wonderful personality of his is always fresh and tireless. Thus, only yesterday, I was reading a manuscript he had given me, On State and Religion; a long, deep essay, meant to enlighten his "young friend," the little king of Bavaria, about his own position on the state and religion. Never has a king been spoken to in a more dignified and more philosophical manner; I was perfectly uplifted and profoundly moved by this ideality, which seemed to have sprung directly from Schopenhauer."

- from PREFACE: The author feels that Wagner's great appeal to, and influence on Nietzsche are tightly interwoven with the philosopher's ambitions as a composer. This is a side of Nietzsche's creativity that his readers have barely noticed. The perception and appreciation of Nietzsche the musician must comprehend the reason why two polar individuals strove towards one another yet were destined to be close only briefly and then to have an "astral friendship."


- from ZARATHUSTRA'S SISTER: The Case of Elisabeth and Friedrich Nietzsche by H. F. Peters; p. 211: It took some time before Elisabeth realized that the fortune her Swedish angel had given her through the years to ensure the survival of the Nietzsche Archives in perpetuity was gone and that once again she was entirely dependent on income from royalties. And even that would end in 1930 when the copyright expired. A government capable of such an infamous betrayal of its own people deserved to be overthrown. Elisabeth rejoiced when she heard that a movement of national resurrection was growing in Bavaria, led by Ludendorff, whom she greatly admired, and ******, the revered leader of a small band of patriots. If she had been younger, she would have gone to Munich and joined the march on Berlin, even at the risk that it might fail and that she would be arrested for treason.

[Reuben]

Nietzsche writes just like Sam, such a copy cat Nietzsche!

[consentingadult]

I'm currently halfway The Gay Science, and to me he sounds like a typical neurotic EIE, and very narcissistic as well. A lot of Mobilizing-Se, in the Expatian sense: "behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them".

[Gilly]

But Niezsche espouses his real shortcomings candidly. He says that the ubermensch is what we need to be striving for; not what he was.

[WVBRY]

But Niezsche espouses his real shortcomings candidly. He says that the ubermensch is what we need to be striving for; not what he was.

THAT.

And Neitzsche was probably a 5W4 in enneagram and seemed pretty introverted though I cant rule out Ni-EIE as his typing.

[Creepy-male]

The concept of an ubermensch to me seems like an expression of e5 to e8 integration.

I've known a lot of people that are put off strongly by neitzsche ideas of power/ubermensch/"what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" ... this may have a relation to how different e-types receive his philosophy.

I could see e8 loathing him except for instances where they disintegrate and begin analyzing reality, then they may develop an interest in some of the ideas to help them get out of disintegration, once back at e8 they would be more in reality and see less value in the overanalysis. I could see an e8 potentially having such a love-hate relationship with his ideas.

e6's I could see as being highly skeptical and little offset by his ideas, e6's ironically are the kinds of types that are most and least likely to fall for cults and religion at the same time, I could see them being a little paranoid of his ideas because they want to maintain psychological distance from his world of ideas, because they have a subconscious tendency to grasp on strongly to ideological bases.

e7's I think would maintain distance as well, neitzsche is power seeking, e7's are ideal seeking and positive, they would find his withdrawn power seeking ideas to be a little depressing/dark I would think, maybe a little comical like a evil genius character -- THE UBERMENSCH!!! etc... however I could see an e7 quoting something from neitzsche potentially when they integrate to e5, but in a very subjective/situational way.

We should do a poll on how e-types respond to neitzsche.

[gooey]

Ni leading...obviously. Diagnoses by Mr. Jung himself. Jung thought he would be INTp as he labeled him an introverted intuitive type with strong thinking and felt feeling was his weakness. Anyone agree/disagree? I actually think INFp is very possible, considering his poetic musings and focus on human nature.

[EyeSeeCold]

Do you have a link to where Jung diagnosed him?

If Ni base is certain, he's definitely Beta INFp. He takes a more ideological approach to his perception of the world, the problems with it, and the ways to correct them. Whereas with being Gamma INTp, I'd find his ruminations to be more specific and concrete in thought, without the air of a prophetic propagandist.


He also favored classism so I guess that could argue for Aristocratic.

[Jenna]

Ni-IEI

[gooey]

Jung mentions it in his notes on Zarathustra. My thoughts were also IEI but Jung stated feeling was his weakness...not sure about this though. His "prophetic" nature definitely screams Ni though...but I'm unsure if it's INTp Ni or INFp Ni

[EyeSeeCold]

Could you quote the section? It's not available online.

Beta Ni is manifested in the form of NF, therefore more ideological, socially relevant, and expressive; more obscure even(fully implicit/internal going by aspectonics).

Jungian Introverted Intuition was heavily skewed towards INFp rather than INTp.

[Leader]

...Haven't read any of his work but just by looking at him I can tell you he is not IEI, and more likely to be INTP.

[EyeSeeCold]

I could take him for LII but I don't see ILI.

[Leader]

I could take him for LII but I don't see ILI.

Yeah.

[DividedsGhost]

If people come to consensus on his type, I'll clap a gay tune and ask BnD to kiss me.

[The Ineffable]

Nietzsche is 100% Beta NF, so among the two he is IEI.

[HERO]

I made a thread on Nietzsche:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ietzsche+Couch


The consensus generally tends to be Beta NF, and most likely IEI. In order of likelihood --

1. Ni-INFp
2. Ni-ENFj
3. INTj
4. INTp

[HERO]

Do you have a link to where Jung diagnosed him?

If Ni base is certain, he's definitely Beta INFp. He takes a more ideological approach to his perception of the world, the problems with it, and the ways to correct them. Whereas with being Gamma INTp, I'd find his ruminations to be more specific and concrete in thought, without the air of a prophetic propagandist.


He also favored classism so I guess that could argue for Aristocratic.

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with so-called dogmas or ideologies as long as they are right/correct and based on facts. Not to mention they're intrinsically related to Beta Ti.
The only problem is when it turns to judging people and saying mean things about them... while a lot of the 'believers' of the 'minority' view don't have the guts to stand up and tell the world about their 'identity'/'beliefs' under their real name (without moralizing or judging people who think differently) [and this cowardice is in part due to the suppression of dissent and the price of dissent.]

It goes both ways. I generally find truth in things that tend to upset the status quo. Most people are used to ignorance, hypocrisy, deception, lies, double-think, etc. so they never question their assumptions, preconceived notions, etc. They tend to think that anyone who thinks differently than they do is evil, mentally ill, lacking in empathy, narcissistic, a jack ass, psychopath/sociopath, or drawn to 'supposed' "cults", brainwashed, conservative, raised without manners, etc.

[HERO]

That's why I'm pretty confident now that my Aunt is actually Fi-ENFp. She ended up considering Alice Miller (Ni-INFp) dogmatic... and my Aunt also hated Bill Weintraub (Fe-ENFj) like the plague.

A lot of the things my Aunt has written have been deemed Ti-PoLR. For example (in response to the ENFp descriptions I sent) --

"Yes, some things I can relate to. Like gaiety, dancing eyes (this is a nice expression)
Others not so much. For instance to me it is more important to hold on to principles than have friends.
I do not even invest much effort into initiating friendships.
There are other things that are so generally human that I believe most people share them, like being attracted to novelty and curious.
I have never understood what is the purpose of these classifications?
It seems to me that adults have complex personalities which are hard to define outside a certain social context, and even within that context their behaviour and cognitive patterns are influenced by personal circumstances which vary in time.
The older I get the less I am stimulated by the interaction with other people who do not share my interest in literature, film and living outside the box in a creative and purposeful way. I spend most of my time reading and writing. And in my free hours I want to be as close to nature as possible."

My Aunt also said, "I am not much into classifications."

So being able to distinguish between Ti-valuing and Te-valuing may also help in typing people, including the dead, like Nietzsche. Te-valuing types are generally less dogmatic/ideological; are generally less passionate about causes, activism, protests, etc. or don't embrace the Beta 'revolutionary spirit' as much nor the Alpha 'intellectual categorizing/rigidity'; and Te-valuing types are much less obsessed with classifications, categories, etc.

[Artsu Tharaz]

Ni leading...obviously. Diagnoses by Mr. Jung himself. Jung thought he would be INTp as he labeled him an introverted intuitive type with strong thinking and felt feeling was his weakness. Anyone agree/disagree? I actually think INFp is very possible, considering his poetic musings and focus on human nature.

Jung thought himself to be weak in Feeling, but he is INFp/INFJ. Nietzsche certainly sounds very Feeling, more poetic than logical, and given Jung's misidentification of his own strength of Feeling it seems possible that he would miss this too. His thoughts are very natural to my mind.

I'll put my vote down for INFJ, but I'll have to re-read some Nietzsche with the intent of typing before I can be confident.

[HERO]

http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/counselor.aspx

If Carl Jung is INFJ in Keirsey's (MBTI) system, that's another good argument for Carl Jung being INFp in Socionics. They were both probably Ni-INFp. I'd have to agree with Socionix regarding those typings as well. They had a (very) strong Introverted Thinking Hidden Agenda... Especially in the Ni-INFp, that can more than make up for Te-PoLR.

[noid]

If Carl Jung is INFJ in Keirsey's (MBTI) system, that's another good argument for Carl Jung being INFp in Socionics.

false first statement imply following can be whatsoever, true or false.
Go into personnality cafe, you will find that 90% of INFJ are INFj (when really fall into NF group) (I am the 10%).
Dostoevsky is typed as an INFJ too.
Jung imo can be INTp, but not sure, hes hard as hell to type. What bug me for example is that he seemed to have a high concern for balance between various things, as if somewhat of an Ij temperament ; I dont think Fi HA express this way.

For Nietzsche, idk, at least beta/gamma > alpha/delta, nothing new here.

[Aquagraph]

He rants in a semi-incomprehensible way and can be real enthusiastic as a poet. IEI.

[WVBRY]

I relate to Neitzsche's interest in abstract theories in a cognitive fashion, in the sense that we both are good with conceptualization(Ne) but dont really care about it, its our demonstrative function,what matters to me is to create concepts which allow change to be caused in ways which consequanially also allows me to take power(Se). Same with Neitzsche- his speculations on will to power are a form of personal liberation from the fedders of Christ and submission to external power. What im getting at is that Neiztsche was actually ENFj, with Ne demonatrative and Se HA, something I dont think has been talked about in this thread.

[munenori2]

INFp

[fen]

I really can't tell you what I think his type is--I always understood he was INFp but I don't know if this is correct. I thought I was INFp for a long while and based much of that on the fact that I admire people like Nietzsche, Plato, and Carl Jung. Thinking about it though, I think I was so enamoured with Nietzsche because existentialism is very empowering...the idea of the Ubermensch and his acknowledgement that we create ourselves resonated with me. However, the "Will to Power" sort of irked me. I supposed this could be Se-PoLR in myself...I don't know. Overall though, his ideas were self-empowering and I admire that. They have a very "You create yourself and your values and meaning in a meaningless world" and they sort of express how I feel about morality. SO--yeah. He does seem to value Se and Ni for sure.
I do feel I need to add that much of his idealism is "of this world" and not so "other-worldly." I think this should be noted. He was clearly Se-seeking, in my view. It's just the vs and vs I can't tell. :x

[WVBRY]

Nietzsche = Ni-INFp. His writing seems more -tailored IMO, e.g. from Thus Spake Zarathustra:

And thus spake Zarathustra unto the people:

It is time for man to fix his goal. It is time for man to plant the germ of his highest hope.

Still is his soil rich enough for it. But that soil will one day be poor and exhausted, and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow thereon.

Alas! there cometh the time when man will no longer launch the arrow of his longing beyond man--and the string of his bow will have unlearned to whizz!

I tell you: one must still have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: ye have still chaos in you.

Alas! There cometh the time when man will no longer give birth to any star. Alas! There cometh the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself.

Cross-reference the above to Extraverted Ethics as detailed here:

- describing fields of relationships and actions that take place between people
- describing influences on living objects
- describing external, observable manifestations of emotions
- spectacles
- describing emotional states or degrees of arousal
- using sonal forms of words as a means of expressing emotions
- describing audible behavior and imitating sounds
- situative word creation to convey shades of emotion
- expressive interjections and exclamations

- frequent use of emotionally charged adjectives
- informal, colloquial, "non-dictionary" vocabulary
- intentionally violating the stylistic flow with words that are either highly colloquial or archaic
- intonationally conveying emotional states
- personification of inanimate objects; increasing the number of actors involved in each story

And fits rather well.

As for Jung, I'm inclined to think he was Ni-INFp too, though I've been leaving open a possibility for Ni-INTp—he is quite a bit 'drier' and more direct compared to Nietzsche.

Re: Jung's typing of Nietzsche, it's worth remembering that Jung conceived types as more of a dynamic construct; where the configuration of functions in the psyche (primary → auxiliary → tertiary → inferior) follows a set pattern in each type, but the strength of each function was variable between individuals and could change over time. Which is something Socionics doesn't really permit. Point being, that even if Jung suggested Nietzsche as an "introverted intuitive type with strong thinking and felt feeling was his weakness", this shouldn't be interpreted as a suggestion of Nietzsche being INTp. Since from a Jungian perspective, it's just as well that an INFp could have repressed auxiliary Feeling and a corresponding emphasis on tertiary Thinking in its place.

What makes you think INFp and not ENFj?

[HERO]

- quotes about Nietzsche from The Untouched Key by Alice Miller; p. 81:

One biographer describes a scene that clearly illustrates how extreme the boy's self-denial was. Caught in heavy rain on his way home from school Nietzsche did not quicken his pace but continued to walk slowly with head erect. His explanation was that "upon leaving school one must go home in a calm and mannerly way. That's what the regulations require."

- from Breaking Down the Wall of Silence by Alice Miller; p. 18:

'Abstract thought offers a chance of survival. In the meantime, the body seeks to express its terrible distress in other ways than tears and screams. It produces an endless catalogue of symptoms, in the hope that someone will finally sit up and take notice and perhaps ask the questions: "What is causing you such distress? Why were you sick more than one hundred times in one school year?" But no one asks such questions. Instead, doctors continue to prescribe their drugs. Not one of them comes up with the idea that, perhaps, Friedrich's chronic throat infections are a way of compensating for the screams he is forbidden to scream. No one makes the connection between his persistent attacks of rheumatism and the almost intolerable muscular tension from which he suffers. How are his muscles supposed to relax, anyway -- when the hope that he might one day be able to give voice to the fear and fury stored in his body slips farther away with every new day?'


I'm probably wrong, yet I could potentially see some of this being connected to Socionics 'negativism' (and rationality). So I guess that's why I still think, that at the very least, Ni-ENFj is the second-most likely type for Nietzsche.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ysical_Level_2

"Negativism induces tangible bodily tension. Negativists are inclined to accumulate 'charge', making highly-charged Negativists easily overexcitable (especially if also Dynamic). In order to compensate against this, Negativists are recommended to engage in physical exercise that relaxes and smooths internal tension."

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...lity#Rationals

"Rationals . . . [5.]Usually have stiff movements."

http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml

"RATIONAL TYPES . . . •angular, discrete movements
•internal tension (readiness)
•often have difficulty relaxing after tasks are over"


And this makes it somewhat difficult for me to entertain Ni-INTp for Carl Jung (although in and of itself it probably only serves to validate Ni-INFp as a more likely typing than Ni-INTp):

- from Thou Shalt Not Be Aware by Alice Miller; p. 87: ". . . a passage written by C. G. Jung in the year 1934:

The Aryan unconscious . . . contains explosive forces and seeds of a future yet to be born. . . . The still youthful Germanic peoples are fully capable of creating new cultural forms that still lie dormant in the darkness of the unconscious of every individual – seeds bursting with energy and capable of mighty expansion. The Jew, who is something of a nomad, has never yet created a cultural form of his own and as far as we can see never will, since all his instincts and talents require a more or less civilized nation to act as host for their development. . . . In my opinion it has been a grave error in medical psychology up till now to apply Jewish categories – which are not even binding on all Jews – indiscriminately to Germanic and Slavic Christendom. Because of this the most precious secret of the Germanic peoples – their creative and intuitive depth of soul – has been explained as a morass of banal infantilism, while my own warning voice has for decades been suspected of anti-Semitism. This suspicion emanated from Freud. He did not understand the Germanic psyche any more than did his Germanic followers. Has the formidable phenomenon of National Socialism, on which the whole world gazes with astonished eyes, taught them better? Where was that unparalleled tension and energy while as yet no National Socialism existed? Deep in the Germanic psyche, in a pit that is anything but a garbage-bin of unrealizable infantile wishes and unresolved family resentments. A movement that grips a whole nation must have matured in every individual as well. [Collected Works X, 165-166]


Since Jung was Swiss and therefore did not have to accommodate himself to the Nazi regime, he obviously wrote these words out of conviction. In any case, a personal, emotional involvement is unmistakable in these lines and constitutes the true significance of what might otherwise be regarded as ideological nonsense . . ."

[HERO]

I haven't read too much of Nietzsche's writings... I read Thus Spoke Zarathustra in its entirety (about seven) years ago. I like some of his writing, although I also perceive some of his writing to be arid and/or confusing at times. Although some of it inspired or moved me at times, I can't say I've ever been really crazy about the idea of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" . . . There might be some denial (minimization of harsh painful reality) in that at times... although I probably have to work on my attitude, etc. in terms of improving my life... I do find that some of his ideas regarding morals, values, etc. resonate somewhat... although I'm not sure if I perceive them in the same way others do.