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Thread: Why Do Catholics Do That?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The power of Christ is supposed to be in every believer, and god is supposed to be omnipotent. Christians are supposed to be saved by the grace of Christ, not through hand gestures or symbols around their neck.
    Yes, we are saved by grace through the work of Christ, but unfortunately it takes a lot more effort to fight our nature and walk with the Lord and to keep Gopd's ways in mind and to ask God for the graces to become perfect - and most of us don't achieve that on earth. It takes a lot of graces to stay the course. Hand gestures and images are some of the things that remind us who we are and to Whom we belong, and images that remind us of our friends in Heaven who have run the good race and are near to us praying for us. All of these help.

    Profession of faith is important but Catholics and Orthodox and some other churches put a lot of emphasis on what to do next. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The Second Commandment says that "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."









    Beautiful, beautiful images. I copied your quote to repeat them.

    It looks like you misunderstood the post. What was referred to is that Catholics and Orthodox have always made the sign of the cross, and always will, often, like before and after prayer, for example. Its either the small gesture with their fingers only on the forehead (like with the ash on Ash Wednesday) or the more common touching first the forehead, then down to the center of the chest/heart, then finishing by touching two points across the upper chest near shoulders like a cross, usually repeating, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

    But again you sound so often like a Protestant apologist - or should I say Protester. You remember that I was raised Protestant and practiced Christianity as a happily not-Catholic Protestant, for a very long time before I unexpectedly converted to Catholic. It took a long time to get there - I protested it the whole way. I had to satisfy all of my deeply embedded Protestant protestations which I had accepted as a very much a part of my thinking for a long time, and this took abut a years's intense effort with much, much reading, before I would ever dream of becoming Catholic - which I was very motivated not to do. But these things are easily resolved, if one wants to know the truth - and I did (though I never dreamed that seeking the truth of these matters would make me Catholic!)

    There can be many answers to the "graven image" protest, but to keep it brief I will give a single one: Why would God say that and then tell the Israelites to construct a tabernacle - for His tablets of the Ten Commandments, some Manna and I Aaron's staff - and give specific instructions for gold-cover statues/images from Heaven and earth to adorn it, when people would then bow before it? (hint: That should be indication that maybe there is another way top interpret this "instruction" other than what you put forth.)

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  2. #162
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    Agreed. Toasters are more viable than microwaves

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Yes, we are saved by grace through the work of Christ, but unfortunately it takes a lot more effort to fight our nature and walk with the Lord and to keep Gopd's ways in mind and to ask God for the graces to become perfect - and most of us don't achieve that on earth. It takes a lot of graces to stay the course. Hand gestures and images are some of the things that remind us who we are and to Whom we belong, and images that remind us of our friends in Heaven who have run the good race and are near to us praying for us. All of these help.

    Profession of faith is important but Catholics and Orthodox and some other churches put a lot of emphasis on what to do next. . .
    Once a Christian is saved and following Christ, no amount of ritual after that is needed according to Christian dogma. Your hand gestures are pure superstition and are not even consider necessary by Christian dogma - the grace of Christ is supposed to be in every Christian even though they are sinners.

    It is notable that you would sooner mention the saints in heaven that the saints living here on Earth. Christian dogma says that the dead are resurrected on the Day of Judgement, that the background of the person who prays is irrelevant, and that Christ alone is the Intercessor for prayers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Beautiful, beautiful images. I copied your quote to repeat them.

    It looks like you misunderstood the post. What was referred to is that Catholics and Orthodox have always made the sign of the cross, and always will, often, like before and after prayer, for example. Its either the small gesture with their fingers only on the forehead (like with the ash on Ash Wednesday) or the more common touching first the forehead, then down to the center of the chest/heart, then finishing by touching two points across the upper chest near shoulders like a cross, usually repeating, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

    But again you sound so often like a Protestant apologist - or should I say Protester. You remember that I was raised Protestant and practiced Christianity as a happily not-Catholic Protestant, for a very long time before I unexpectedly converted to Catholic. It took a long time to get there - I protested it the whole way. I had to satisfy all of my deeply embedded Protestant protestations which I had accepted as a very much a part of my thinking for a long time, and this took abut a years's intense effort with much, much reading, before I would ever dream of becoming Catholic - which I was very motivated not to do. But these things are easily resolved, if one wants to know the truth - and I did (though I never dreamed that seeking the truth of these matters would make me Catholic!)

    There can be many answers to the "graven image" protest, but to keep it brief I will give a single one: Why would God say that and then tell the Israelites to construct a tabernacle - for His tablets of the Ten Commandments, some Manna and I Aaron's staff - and give specific instructions for gold-cover statues/images from Heaven and earth to adorn it, when people would then bow before it? (hint: That should be indication that maybe there is another way top interpret this "instruction" other than what you put forth.)

    The Ark in the Old Testament was considered the dwelling place of god on Earth: the sole reason for bowing in front of it was not to bow down before the Ark, but to bow down before god. The bible makes it clear that the making of engraved things is a sin, as is the veneration of engraved things. According to Judaism and Christianity, god currently has no specific temple on Earth where it resides. Jesus of course said "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." ...not in any engraved objects.

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    "the Catholic Church never excommunicated a single Nazi, but in 2010 it excommunicated nun Margaret McBride for allowing an abortion that was necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman suffering from pulmonary hypertension."

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    Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction:
    “... I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus...”

    http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

    Catholic’s say the darndest things
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    I'm just gonna swoop in really quick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction:
    “... I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus...”

    http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

    Catholic’s say the darndest things
    I'm... pretty sure that's not a thing. Or, maybe it is. Dunno.
    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    "the Catholic Church never excommunicated a single Nazi, but in 2010 it excommunicated nun Margaret McBride for allowing an abortion that was necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman suffering from pulmonary hypertension."
    Yup, that happened. People get excommunicated. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes for not. Life goes on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Once a Christian is saved and following Christ, no amount of ritual after that is needed according to Christian dogma. Your hand gestures are pure superstition and are not even consider necessary by Christian dogma - the grace of Christ is supposed to be in every Christian even though they are sinners.
    Mm. Let me pose a question then. Just because something is not necessary, does that mean that it is not beneficial or useful or good?

    That is all, carry on. Stay sweet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction:
    “... I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus...”

    http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

    Catholic’s say the darndest things
    Those are just jesuits. It´s like saying the americans are all mormons.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Anyone who's read the Bible (and even vaguely understood it) would not be a Catholic. Catholics are not Christian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    Anyone who's read the Bible (and even vaguely understood it) would not be a Catholic. Catholics are not Christian.
    Rude!! >.<

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Those are just jesuits. It´s like saying the americans are all mormons.
    Tell that to The Pope
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/pope-f...ciety-of-jesus
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucenna View Post
    Yup, that happened. People get excommunicated. Sometimes for good reason, sometimes for not. Life goes on.
    But did they get excommunicated for being Nazis?

    Quote Originally Posted by ucenna View Post
    Mm. Let me pose a question then. Just because something is not necessary, does that mean that it is not beneficial or useful or good?

    That is all, carry on. Stay sweet!
    Superstition is not only not necessary, it serves no purpose whatsoever, and when combined with an immoral ideology such as the Christianity of the New Testament, it is harmful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    But did they get excommunicated for being Nazis?
    Maybe. Why does it matter if they did or didn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Superstition is not only not necessary, it serves no purpose whatsoever, and when combined with an immoral ideology such as the Christianity of the New Testament, it is harmful.
    It would seem that you're not Christian. So it would be impossible for me to convince you of the purposefulness or use of Christian actions. Also, you make the claim that Christianity is immoral. You're welcome to defend that claim, but I'm curious what you use as your basis for the concept of morality//immorality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucenna View Post
    Maybe. Why does it matter if they did or didn't?
    If you are going to have such a process as excommunication then not using it when members of your church commit crimes against humanity is a huge indictment of your ideology. This is especially noticeable when you do excommunicate individuals who have acted morally.

    Quote Originally Posted by ucenna View Post
    It would seem that you're not Christian. So it would be impossible for me to convince you of the purposefulness or use of Christian actions. Also, you make the claim that Christianity is immoral. You're welcome to defend that claim, but I'm curious what you use as your basis for the concept of morality//immorality.
    My primary reason for considering Christianity of the New Testament immoral is that I consider torture to be the greatest evil.

    I consider something to be moral if it minimizes pain and maximizes pleasure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If you are going to have such a process as excommunication then not using it when members of your church commit crimes against humanity is a huge indictment of your ideology. This is especially noticeable when you do excommunicate individuals who have acted morally.
    I cannot answer as to why some people were excommunicated and some were not, that is not my place. But excommunication isn't like citizenship. We wouldn't excommunicate Adolf ****** now that he's dead. We'd excommunicate him because he isn't doing things right and we want him to know that and to change that. It's not a condemnation, but rather a call to action and self evaluation. As for the nun, she was excommunicated Latae Sententiae, that is automatically by virtue of her action. And I'd actually have to examine that. Just because the bishop said that her actions caused her to be excommunicated doesn't mean he evaluated her actions correctly. Or maybe he did. That's not the point though. People are human, even when the represent the government or the church or something. And they're sure to screw up sometimes. A lot even. It's not something that is remarkable at all to me. People are idiots, life goes on.


    My primary reason for considering Christianity of the New Testament immoral is that I consider torture to be the greatest evil.
    You forgot to correlate torture with Christianity. As it stands, I know that you think Christianity is immoral, and that torture is immoral. And I can presume that you think Christianity and torture are closely connected. I'm wondering why.

    I consider something to be moral if it minimizes pain and maximizes pleasure.
    Then you and I, my friend, will disagree on most things regarding morality.
    Responses bolded

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucenna View Post
    Responses bolded
    Christianity in the New Testament says that non-Christians will be tortured after death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Christianity in the New Testament says that non-Christians will be tortured after death.
    Well... actually it doesn't. That said, I do believe in hell. But it's not a place just for non-Christians. Pets can go there too!
    Joking aside. Generally, at least for the Catholics. non-Christians are pretty chill in heaven. Assuming God is the loving God we make him out to be, it'd be pretty stupid if he just went and damned all the people who didn't believe in him to hell. On the other hand, he's not just gonna force people into heaven neither. If you'd rather go to hell, that's your prerogative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If you are going to have such a process as excommunication then not using it when members of your church commit crimes against humanity is a huge indictment of your ideology. This is especially noticeable when you do excommunicate individuals who have acted morally.



    My primary reason for considering Christianity of the New Testament immoral is that I consider torture to be the greatest evil.

    I consider something to be moral if it minimizes pain and maximizes pleasure.

    How can measurement of pain and pleasure be attributed to morality? There are many things that can drive instant pleasure which can simultaneously be considered painful and/or immoral in the long run- drug or alcohol abuse, selfishness. Why can't something painful also be good? Sacrifice or self denial for the sake of love, for instance.

    When we allow humans to drive morality and its definitions, chaos ensues.

    Morality is absolute. We know what is right and wrong, and yet we rebel. Do not lie, do not cheat, do not steal. Do not commit adultery. Honor your parents. These are good, moral things.


    God and His law was built entirely on these two principles: love the LORD. Love your neighbor. When these are kept (which we are clearly unable to do on our own). The whole Bible, to include the New Testament, was built on this, and to show that we are incapable of doing it without a change of heart, which comes from the aid of God Himself.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Christianity in the New Testament says that non-Christians will be tortured after death.
    The wages of sin is death, and in Heaven, there's no death, so you can't have sin, so you can't have non-Christians in Heaven.

    Now, God is perfect, and perfectly moral. Yes, God could say, let everyone into Heaven, but then, if He was to do that, He would cease to be God, because then He would not be morally perfect, but have compromised Himself, so to get round this, He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

    This is just how it works. Like it or lump it, it's the facts.

    Personally, I'm backed by the blood, if you're not born again, I suggest you should be - even speaking out against Christianity will be covered, all sins are covered.

    Now, can you go out and murder loads of people? Well, possibly, although I'm not sure if the Holy Spirit would permit it, for such acts, God will call His children home early, referenced from the Bible. But, you are saved through faith, and faith alone. You have to BELIEVE.

    BELIEVE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucenna View Post
    Well... actually it doesn't. That said, I do believe in hell. But it's not a place just for non-Christians. Pets can go there too!
    Joking aside. Generally, at least for the Catholics. non-Christians are pretty chill in heaven. Assuming God is the loving God we make him out to be, it'd be pretty stupid if he just went and damned all the people who didn't believe in him to hell. On the other hand, he's not just gonna force people into heaven neither. If you'd rather go to hell, that's your prerogative.
    Doesn't Christ in the New Testament says they'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and that the path to destruction is wide?

    I do not want to go to hell, but that is irrelevant, because hell and god do not exist. Even if they did, I would not believe in a god that I cannot observe, nor would I obey a god who would send people to hell for their disbelief. And of course, I cannot choose to go to a place I do not believe exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Christianity in the New Testament says that non-Christians will be tortured after death.
    Christianity states that people rebel and reject God and His free offer of help, redemption, salvation, and a new heart, thus, the judgement is this: "light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness more than the light."

    Could God be just if He allowed murderers, adulterers, rapists, and the like to suffer no penalty?

    The book of Timothy states that God desires no one to perish (go to hell). Hell was made for demons- not for man. But man rejects what is good. The Old Testament confirms this, that God takes no pleasure in punishing those who do wrong.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    Personally, I'm backed by the blood, if you're not born again, I suggest you should be - even speaking out against Christianity will be covered, all sins are covered.
    And this my friends, is where I differentiate myself from Protestant denominations and prefer Catholicism. Being "born again" and then just doing whatever you feel like it after. Kinda BS in my books. Generally I'd rather good people vs bad people be in heaven, regardless of religion or circumstances. Granted my definition of good vs bad perhaps deviates from the norm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucenna View Post
    And this my friends, is where I differentiate myself from Protestant denominations and prefer Catholicism. Being "born again" and then just doing whatever you feel like it after. Kinda BS in my books. Generally I'd rather good people vs bad people be in heaven, regardless of religion or circumstances. Granted my definition of good vs bad perhaps deviates from the norm.
    I am neither protestant or Catholic - I am Christian and refer to the Bible. Please don't accuse me of things I am not.

    But, to explain, there ARE no good people! If you define 'good', who is good? There's always someone 'better' than yourself, but in the eyes of a perfect God, even one sin is enough to condemn you of all. The only way out is to accept you're a sinner and believe on Jesus, who died on the cross, buried, and bodily risen three days later, paying a debt He did not owe because we couldn't. That's the Gospel, and you don't need churches, popes, guys in funny dresses to get it. It's a message for EVERYONE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Doesn't Christ in the New Testament says they'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and that the path to destruction is wide?

    I do not want to go to hell, but that is irrelevant, because hell and god do not exist. Even if they did, I would not believe in a god that I cannot observe, nor would I obey a god who would send people to hell for their disbelief. And of course, I cannot choose to go to a place I do not believe exists.
    Try that in a court of law.

    "I don't believe in this court, nor this judge. You can't throw me in prison."

    We all know we shouldnt lie, cheat, or steal. We all know we should love one another and give to those in need. We all know that we shouldn't be selfish or greedy, hateful or unforgiving. Yet we are. The very existence of our moral compass points to the existence of a higher moral being. The existence of our need for justice and court rooms is a model of a higher and perfectly just court room. Our very thirst for mercy points to our need for a Savior to be merciful to us.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    How can measurement of pain and pleasure be attributed to morality? There are many things that can drive instant pleasure which can simultaneously be considered painful and/or immoral in the long run- drug or alcohol abuse, selfishness. Why can't something painful also be good? Sacrifice or self denial for the sake of love, for instance.

    When we allow humans to drive morality and its definitions, chaos ensues.

    Morality is absolute. We know what is right and wrong, and yet we rebel. Do not lie, do not cheat, do not steal. Do not commit adultery. Honor your parents. These are good, moral things.


    God and His law was built entirely on these two principles: love the LORD. Love your neighbor. When these are kept (which we are clearly unable to do on our own). The whole Bible, to include the New Testament, was built on this, and to show that we are incapable of doing it without a change of heart, which comes from the aid of God Himself.
    The issue is minimizing pain and maximizing pleasure. If something causes harm, it is contrary to that maxim. Pain is bad, but is often less bad than things that cause us harm, and can be useful as an indicator for when something is harmful. But that only shows that pain is less bad than greater evils.

    I disagree that morality is absolute, which demonstrates that morality may not be absolute: but if there was an absolute moral, it would be to minimize pain and maximize pleasure.

    I could not love an omnipotent being who would torture those who disbelieve or disagree with it. If there is an absolute evil, then that would be torture.

    The Abrahamic god engaged in genocide in its holy texts, and in Christianity and Islam, tortures individuals for an indefinite amount of time if not eternity. By contrast, in the age of the United Nations, we are living in the most peaceful and prosperous time in history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    The wages of sin is death, and in Heaven, there's no death, so you can't have sin, so you can't have non-Christians in Heaven.

    Now, God is perfect, and perfectly moral. Yes, God could say, let everyone into Heaven, but then, if He was to do that, He would cease to be God, because then He would not be morally perfect, but have compromised Himself, so to get round this, He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

    This is just how it works. Like it or lump it, it's the facts.

    Personally, I'm backed by the blood, if you're not born again, I suggest you should be - even speaking out against Christianity will be covered, all sins are covered.

    Now, can you go out and murder loads of people? Well, possibly, although I'm not sure if the Holy Spirit would permit it, for such acts, God will call His children home early, referenced from the Bible. But, you are saved through faith, and faith alone. You have to BELIEVE.

    BELIEVE.
    If god is moral, he would not punish me for following my conscience or for what I honestly believe. God is not an indisputable fact - the idea that an omnipotent being would torture individuals for being unable to force themselves to believe something contrary to their own observation is immoral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If god is moral, he would not punish me for following my conscience or for what I honestly believe. God is not an indisputable fact - the idea that an omnipotent being would torture individuals for being unable to force themselves to believe something contrary to their own observation is immoral.
    You are, and have always, been able to perfectly follow your conscience, 100% of the time, with no error or need for apology, correction, or mistake?
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Christianity states that people rebel and reject God and His free offer of help, redemption, salvation, and a new heart, thus, the judgement is this: "light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness more than the light."

    Could God be just if He allowed murderers, adulterers, rapists, and the like to suffer no penalty?

    The book of Timothy states that God desires no one to perish (go to hell). Hell was made for demons- not for man. But man rejects what is good. The Old Testament confirms this, that God takes no pleasure in punishing those who do wrong.
    I never said that people should not take responsibility for their own actions (although I believe that rehabilitation is often cheaper and more effective at reducing negative actions).

    With Christianity, it does not matter how moral you are, because if you do not follow Christ, you are going to be tortured for eternity, whereas if you follow Christ, you are going to be rewarded for eternity. How then does the Christian god punish sin other than through death?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    I am neither protestant or Catholic - I am Christian and refer to the Bible. Please don't accuse me of things I am not.

    But, to explain, there ARE no good people! If you define 'good', who is good? There's always someone 'better' than yourself, but in the eyes of a perfect God, even one sin is enough to condemn you of all. The only way out is to accept you're a sinner and believe on Jesus, who died on the cross, buried, and bodily risen three days later, paying a debt He did not owe because we couldn't. That's the Gospel, and you don't need churches, popes, guys in funny dresses to get it. It's a message for EVERYONE.
    The notion that individuals are inherently bad and needing of being "saved" is one of the most destructive dogmas ever devised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Try that in a court of law.

    "I don't believe in this court, nor this judge. You can't throw me in prison."

    We all know we shouldnt lie, cheat, or steal. We all know we should love one another and give to those in need. We all know that we shouldn't be selfish or greedy, hateful or unforgiving. Yet we are. The very existence of our moral compass points to the existence of a higher moral being. The existence of our need for justice and court rooms is a model of a higher and perfectly just court room. Our very thirst for mercy points to our need for a Savior to be merciful to us.
    What court of law on Earth requires the defendant to recognize the judge or else be imprisoned?

    It does not require a Higher Moral Being to recognize that minimizing pain and maximizing pleasure is a good maxim, whereas torturing others is bad. It isn't surprising that organisms that do not engage in self-destructive behaviour tend to prosper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    You are, and have always, been able to perfectly follow your conscience, 100% of the time, with no error or need for apology, correction, or mistake?
    Should I follow my conscience, or what your religion tells me my conscience should be? The alternative sounds like being a castle on sand. If I am not the ultimate determiner of what is moral, then I am liable to adopt ideologies that are immoral without any thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I never said that people should not take responsibility for their own actions (although I believe that rehabilitation is often cheaper and more effective at reducing negative actions).

    With Christianity, it does not matter how moral you are, because if you do not follow Christ, you are going to be tortured for eternity, whereas if you follow Christ, you are going to be rewarded for eternity. How then does the Christian god punish sin other than through death?
    What we fail to see is the devastation, destruction, and chaos that even the smallest of sins makes against a completely holy God. Just look around the world. We would all agree that this place is far from ideal. Yet we all have contributed to the horrors of this place. I've done things I regret. I've hurt people, even if just emotionally. I've neglected to love others in the way I knew I ought to. I've contributed to this destructive place.

    And yer I desire to live in a perfectly good, just, merciful, and wonderful place of love. Yet I lack the ability to perfectly carry this out. Thus, I myself do not deserve Heaven. I deserve punishment.

    God warns us that the wage system of sin IS death. And yet He loves us still.

    Hence, the necessity to believe in Jesus, to be born again, to receive a new heart and a new spirit. How can anyone claim to not need saving when they themselves can testify to their own sin, and thus contributing to the state of this world. "To know the right thing to do, and fail to do it, is sin."

    It's astounding to me how God can show perfect justice and perfect mercy at the cross. God's wrath against Jesus on the cross was my penalty. And Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is my mercy.

    I'm certain if someone paid all of your debt for you, or took your imprisonment terms for you, or took a fatal bullet for you, SOMETHING would move in your heart.

    Jesus took an eternal bullet for us on the cross.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Should I follow my conscience, or what your religion tells me my conscience should be? The alternative sounds like being a castle on sand. If I am not the ultimate determiner of what is moral, then I am liable to adopt ideologies that are immoral without any thought.
    The Bible tells us that we know what we ought to do. Our conscience bears witness when we fail to do what is right. God wrote His law on hearts. The Ten Commandments are universal for us all.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    What we fail to see is the devastation, destruction, and chaos that even the smallest of sins makes against a completely holy God. Just look around the world. We would all agree that this place is far from ideal. Yet we all have contributed to the horrors of this place. I've done things I regret. I've hurt people, even if just emotionally. I've neglected to love others in the way I knew I ought to. I've contributed to this destructive place.

    And yer I desire to live in a perfectly good, just, merciful, and wonderful place of love. Yet I lack the ability to perfectly carry this out. Thus, I myself do not deserve Heaven. I deserve punishment.

    God warns us that the wage system of sin IS death. And yet He loves us still.

    Hence, the necessity to believe in Jesus, to be born again, to receive a new heart and a new spirit. How can anyone claim to not need saving when they themselves can testify to their own sin, and thus contributing to the state of this world. "To know the right thing to do, and fail to do it, is sin."

    It's astounding to me how God can show perfect justice and perfect mercy at the cross. God's wrath against Jesus on the cross was my penalty. And Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is my mercy.

    I'm certain if someone paid all of your debt for you, or took your imprisonment terms for you, or took a fatal bullet for you, SOMETHING would move in your heart.

    Jesus took an eternal bullet for us on the cross.
    Jesus in the New Testament was described as innocent. For god to punish someone for the sins of another is immoral, and is contrary to the modern sense of justice. How is that objectively moral?

    Why does Jesus only receive a few hours of pain and a few days of death for the sins of the whole world, while mere mortals have to be tortured for eternity (and not because they sin, but because they do not follow Christ)?

    Ideally, I would take responsibility for all my actions and act in accordance with my principles. I would not deviate from this purely on the promise of some reward.

    If Christ has absolved me of my "sin", then I do not need to believe in or follow Christ in order to be absolved of my "sin". Why then do people still die?

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    The Bible tells us that we know what we ought to do. Our conscience bears witness when we fail to do what is right. God wrote His law on hearts. The Ten Commandments are universal for us all.
    I see no merit in worshiping the god of the Old Testament, refraining form making graven images, or keeping the sabbath, at the very least.

    The god of the Old Testament killed millions of people, ordered genocides, and asked for a father to murder his son. To me, this is wrong, and not something I Ought to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Jesus in the New Testament was described as innocent. For god to punish someone for the sins of another is immoral, and is contrary to the modern sense of justice. How is that objectively moral?

    Why does Jesus only receive a few hours of pain and a few days of death for the sins of the whole world, while mere mortals have to be tortured for eternity (and not because they sin, but because they do not follow Christ)?

    Ideally, I would take responsibility for all my actions and act in accordance with my principles. I would not deviate from this purely on the promise of some reward.

    If Christ has absolved me of my "sin", then I do not need to believe in or follow Christ in order to be absolved of my "sin". Why then do people still die?
    All good questions.

    If God punished a normal being for the sins of others, then yes, it would be unjust. But Jesus is God in the flesh. Therefore, God took the punishment for our sins. He did so because it was the only way. None of us can achieve perfect righteousness on our own. When we believe and trust in Jesus' work on the cross, we are justified and accredited with His righteousness. This is what separates Christianity from other religions. We cannot "do enough good" or "earn" Heaven. Rather, there should awaken in us an awe, a humbling of the soul, a sobering of the spirit, a change of heart in seeing a God who loves and dies for what is technically considered His enemies. It's that love that changes and transforms us. Grace is, by definition, unmerited or undeserved favor.


    Jesus' suffering on the cross was far beyond a mere day of torture. For one, He lived and experienced life in the flesh. Like us, He experienced hunger and thirst. He was flogged and beaten so hard that the Bible said He was beyond recognizable. And though the physical pain of the cross was excruciating, add to it 1) the shame, the mocking, the taunting, the spitting, 2) the guilt, taking our sins upon His shoulders, and 3) the rejection. Not only was Jesus rejected by being crucified outside of the city, He was rejected by everyone, to include His friends.

    However, none of this could compare to the rejection Jesus experienced from God the Father. When He was on the cross, He cried, "My God, why had you forsaken me?" He was rejected and separated from God the Father, a perfectly eternal love.

    People ARE separated from God for their sin. All sin can be forgiven, except the sin of unbelief. How can God heal you if you refuse to acknowledge you need healing? God makes it very clear. Unless you repent and accept Christ, you will perish. He sends judges, prophets, priests, His son, and now evangelists to make sure everyone hears this message. He is not wanting anyone to perish.

    The bottom line is- God is holy. We are not. There is no way for us to be reconciled with Him apart from Christ.

    You know your Christianity. And you are familiar with the texts. We can have all the head knowledge in the world of the "religion" of Christianity. But if the heart cannot see a God who so loved the world that He came to die for it, that they might be able to be reconciled and embraced together for eternity, then all the logic in the world will not change your mind.

    Christ's atonement is for those who repent- who recognize their sin and turn directions, lay down their rebellion against God-, and trust entirely in the work of Jesus. We cannot earn God's favor. Our work is like dirty rags.

    Does a child need to earn the love of a good father? No. The Father loves the child because it's his child.


    People perish eternally because they reject Christ. They prefer to keep their sin.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    If Satan rules this world (2 Corinthians 4:4), why is he allowing a Bible in every hotel room?
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    If Satan rules this world (2 Corinthians 4:4), why is he allowing a Bible in every hotel room?
    Because they are Gideon's Bible, typically English Standard or King James, not the New Jerusalem Bible used by Catholics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    If Satan rules this world (2 Corinthians 4:4), why is he allowing a Bible in every hotel room?
    God is completely sovereign over everything, to include Satan. Recall the book of Job. Satan wasn't allowed to do any harm to Job without God's permission. He is on a tight leash until his day of judgement.

    In the beginning God created everything. Genesis tells us that God gave man the authority to rule over every living creature and to subdue the earth, to multiply, to be fruitful.

    Man has given much of that authority away to be enslaved by sin. "For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved." 2 Peter 2:19.

    Thus, God came in the flesh as a form of the man Jesus. He now rules over all. Thus God's command in Genesis was never negated, and now man can be overcome by Jesus, to allow for true freedom and all the fruits of the Spirit that come with it.

    Also- God said His Word would never fade or pass away. So His Bible remains.

    EDIT: I'm not Catholic, FYI.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    If Satan rules this world (2 Corinthians 4:4), why is he allowing a Bible in every hotel room?
    To stir up some fecal matter.
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