I rose her from the dead, but then it turned out to be Ayn Rand in a mask so I sent her back to the dead like nevermind.Originally Posted by wasp
I rose her from the dead, but then it turned out to be Ayn Rand in a mask so I sent her back to the dead like nevermind.
I think it's like this: yes both can be assholes, the difference is just that thinker types repress their emotionality so they're not as in tune with their emotions and that manifest in several ways like being an asshole because they're repressing emotoins whereas feeling types are assholes but they're being assholes because they're so affected by something emotionally. theyre acting out from their emotions. now everyone does that to an extent but t types less
Last edited by maniac; 04-18-2018 at 08:44 AM.
ITT thinkers are more likely to deal with people wrong because they aren't comfortable dealing with emotions (and maybe even their own as maniac puts it).
ITT feelers are more likely to make poor decisions because they aren't comfortable disregarding feelings (impartiality is not as natural).
I know that's very general and I'm sure people can move from one to the other, depending on their life and circumstances, but that's kind of how I see it.
good bye
Anyone can be an asshole if you keep validating their assholery. Thinkers generally speaking don't realise they are being assholes, so they usually need someone emotionally intelligent to be like, you're being an asshole, these are the consequences of your actions etc, etc.
IxTP don't go out of their way to be assholes, but sometimes trying really hard not to be an asshole makes you a massive asshole. Get them alone (especially INTP) and they are by far some of the most offensive people out there lol, and unless they give a shit about you, they're going to continue being assholes.
I know an INTP who nitpicks a lot, he'll call me out on a lot of things and try to police what I say and how I express myself. He's even spewed profanities at me. I challenged him once and he became a mega asshole. So it has nothing to do with being a feeler or a thinker, it has to do with the person and how wiling they are to accept that they aren't god's gift to the world and take responsibility for how they are making others feel.
Fe doms tend to be overwhelming and manipulative af, especially when unhealthy. ESE in particular are very difficult to reason with. But they're not usually assholes, they just come off as being illogical... unless they are bullying you into aligning with their values, that's the worst. ESPECIALLY when society is in their favour.
The small case studies are not good here. As there is never "same environment" for different individs. In any age two siblings could to get significantly different external influences. Freud could to say that pointed on some of external factors which predispose to those neuroses.
Also I suspect Freud did not took seriously some of his assertions about the factors of concrete neuroses, like too much accent on sex, toilets, incest, etc. He could be lesser primitively thinking, but to use yellow press style to attract the attention to own more general ideas, to psychology itself and mb to own person to gain more money.
His general idea was about unconscious importance and how it may influence on the conscious. That our instincts, wishes, needs, the natural inclination to pleasure, may stay not noticed by the conscious and anyway affect on it. That to return higher control to conscious is possibly by finding the consensus between it and the unconscious, to allow something from unconscious to be accepted and to be, instead of often useless [or not reasonable] trying to strengthen the conscious.
To describe neuroses as the symptoms of inner conflict was new. Later Pavlov have found experimental proof that neurotic behavior is provoked by inner conflicts. He experimented on dogs, gave them contradictory stimuls and those reacted abnormally. If that abnormal reaction leaded to reducing of inner discomfort or got other encouragement - it could be fixed and later repeated by creating similar situation of inner conflict. It's objective behavioral science, but the idea was popularized by Freud at first and this allowed to do lesser speculative researches.
Socionics with the idea of duals partly follows the idea of Freud about acceptance of our unconscious. As the communication with duals makes as more conscious information related to weak functions. This reduces the tension between our conscious and unconscious and improves our emotional state. Duals not only help better to understand us, but also to find and to go better ways to follow our needs and wishes related to weak functions. Duals partly do what psychotherapist does in psychoanalysis.
Last edited by Sol; 04-18-2018 at 03:48 PM.
I'm not really sure I'm getting you but...
Where do you see these outside factors? In descriptions? Descriptions are just trying to grasp some common behaviour or stereotypes of the type as a guidance or introduction. That's all you can do in text. The real observations are in real life where we observe the IM directly.
It's just a fact that one has observed. That there are 16 variations of IM, and that IM is relevant for understanding how people generally work etc. It has some benefits, you can understand why people think the way they do and relationships.On another level, how can be there only 16+ cores? So somehow it's true we need those outside factors in order to decide how to put each person in only 16 categories, some parts in common that guide us, aka the 8 functions... but then that's no core anymore.
Of course a human being is more than just the IM, but that's already implied in the concept of type.
You don't have to type people according to IM. If you are able to find other regularities in people you can make your own typology according to that. It's just that experience has shown that IM is a fruitful thing to focus on.
Last edited by Tallmo; 04-18-2018 at 04:36 PM.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
yes I agree to some extent that we can come up with some general rules abot people in the world, I'm just worried that we don't classify them the wrong way simply for an external appeareance. the thing I had with genders was directed at this because the world expects and imposes some roles to sexes, but how each person lives this imposition might deceit the observer to make him believe that they favor a given category simply because of how they look... it's a very common prejudice.
@Sol honestly I couldn't care less about Freud's ideas, he vastly overestimated the importance of environment and for the most part his theories don't have anything to do with reality (or socionics, in my opinion, but you probably already knew that).
He only limited his researches to this factor. But seems never claimed that other reasons are not important to be taken into account, to say he overestimated something. He knew about genetics studies and should be able to understand at least this as a possible factor of predisposition. I suppose you've taken this idea not from Freud's words, but an interpretation of him by some author.
> and for the most part his theories don't have anything to do with reality
His general ideas which I mentioned above have nothing objective to think them as wrong. While "yellow" part with sex&toilets is not the main in his theories, but a surface specifics.
> or socionics, in my opinion, but you probably already knew that
As you saw, I've linked Freud's theories with Socionics above.
Jung was Freud's follower and used his idea of the unconscious in the types.
Model A uses Freud's terms, but partly in a doubtful way. ID should be where superid, as it's the source of energy. And mb the main place of neurotic conflicts, as it's weak and more personally important than nonvalued regions. Stimulating of superego block may create the predisposition for neurotization - create "negative" energy for it, but the personal conflict itself should be situated in superid - this conflict blocks the energy of superid, does not allow to understand, express and follow own needs of those region. Duals help with all this - to understand yourself in superid region and to express own superid.
@Joy not SEE but Ti seeking type? which Ti porl would be pointing out every contradiction?
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...s-of-instincts
VI me
I’d say SLE, neither Se nor Ti subtype, but somewhere in the middle. Which means I see lots of Se, and just 10-20% Ti.
I know an SLE-Se, and you look more intellectual than he does, and I know two SLE-Ti’s, and you look much more expressive and “in the moment” than they do. So maybe SLE-0.
I know a few LSI’s, and they all appear much more logical (Ti) and have more gravitas than you, and I know one SEE, and he vibes more like a “rebel with a cause.”
number9 mb IEI
check Sol's IR for ITR Ne impressions mate
@ N9L SEE. Typical case of ethical male trying to feel logical and masculine through self-typing, also typical of male wanting to be Oli's dual by self-typing SLE.
My other typings:
Crystal: SLI
woofwoofl: SEE
Adam Strange: LIE
bnd: IEI
Chryssie: confused, but probs IEI
totalize: SEE
Chae: IEE
Sol: LSE
Maritsa: EII
Olimpia: IEI
Starfall: IEI
Pink: IEI
Aylen: IEI
Dingu: IEI
K4M: SLE
BeamerBoy: SLE
Viktor: SLE
Bertrand: ILI
Tallmo: SEI
Suz: alpha SF leaning SEI
lemontrees: SEI
Toynbee: LII
kopyk: ILE
manjac: SEI
Pallas Athena: EIE
ooo: IEE
idontgiveaf: SEE
wasp: EII
wacey: EII (with vibes of all rational ethical types)
If I haven't mentioned you either you've told me not to do so or I probably agree with your self-typing.
Okay maybe you are SLE Number 9 but if you are, you are the retarded Transkar kind.
Last edited by niffer; 04-19-2018 at 07:59 AM.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
If someone neutered you and did boob job on you would be very comparable with this SLE.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Number 9 is obviously an EII posterboy.
Seriously though, SEE typing for him is perfect, with SLE coming close, mayhaps.
Swoosh.
“I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
― Clarice Lispector
his top skill is being homeless and annoying.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
^those Dominatrix subtypes...
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
@manjac
"TIM infp"
you are too assertive for IEI
it's EIE
Last edited by Sol; 04-19-2018 at 09:48 AM.
@Sol im sorry you feel that way
it is what fits dichotomy-wise, and in jung. well besides the extroverted feeling, cant relate to that in jung. but dichotomies yes
what do u guys think about enneagram
I'm generally grumpy, and he's annoying, so he's a worthwhile target for dumping on.Why so bitter?
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
dont go to hard on me please
There is nothing to sorry. It's common for E or S types.
> besides the extroverted feeling, cant relate to that in jung
functions used in Socionics are same like at Jung in its essence, their core description. to think other is heresy and wrong. expanded functions description in Socionics are secondary and are correct, while in early Jung's texts their quality and correctness is more doubtful. Jung own type did not understand correctly, besides what he could to write in secondary, expanded theory.
A backstory for your fun and how N-I types differ. In the previous summer I typed a girl to EII and said her about LSE as my type. We talked a little on different forum's themes. Then accidentally she decided to establish emotionally closer communication and started to behave with the significant assertive attention to me. Showed personal sympathy, tried to start discussions. Asked me a lot about my personal data, and even when I rejected to give it - she asked it again with persistence and without much creativity, and I gave her a little. I showed no interest in closer communication before to her, all that was strange to see. Also I prefer in women more delicate, softer and lesser assertive style - that her behavior was pushy for me. But I'm a man and young woman's attention, especially with good IR, touches me - all that was charming and aroused some feelings to her as a woman as I thougth she flirts with me and I like felt her sexual passion directed on me. The situation scared me a little, as I began to notice the appearance of feelings to her, while knowing almost nothing about her.
That her assertive and stereotypical behavior gave me doubts in her EII type. That was types forum and I said her about my doubts in EII, what she strongly disliked. In our later talking I've also noticed she understands not good where is appropriate to say me what she said in case she wanted to make us closer, but not to push me. Some things said by her to me I perceid as irritating, unreasonable arguing, and some even insulting. I got the assurance it's not EII, said it in her typing theme [where previously said that I'm sure in her EII *sigh*], and she felt insulted and have deminded to stop talking to her anymore. Besides "uncomfortable" opinion about her type not being EII and some criticism of her shortcomings which differ her from EII, she seems has accumulated the anger that I rejected her friendship offer before. As I partly liked her attention to me, I felt sorrow when said openly that have changed the opinion about her type - I understood this will avert her. I did that because this was my duty to say publicly about changed the opinion about her type, because I was irritated by some of her behavior and style, and the appearance of feelings as the reaction on her flirty attention scared me a little.
I felt as unjustly insulted by her too high negative reaction and perceived her behavior as not much adequate one. So I stoped to read what she writes for some time, did not reply on her messages to me on the forum - later I also read not all what writes, even where she could to reply on my messages to her. One of those missed messages contained important information and if I'd read it, much in our relations and lives could to go very differently - we could to marry, probably. After some weeks she asked me to forgive her rude reaction to me, and I said that nothing special happened, though to change my worsened opinion about her that was not enough. She continued to show me heightened sympathy, some care and attention on the forum for some time, but I had nothing significant to her and showed no interest in closing, I was sometimes sarcastic and not very polite with her, insisted on her not EII type. Also she found other people for friendly talking [including men which ones she thought as own dual], started pals communications with the ones who felt bad to me and that influenced on her perception, got more of IRL relations with some man to reduce the unconscious interest to other men, etc - her interest to me have reduced. The problem was - in the same time I got more and more info about her as a person, her special attention kept influenced on me and I noticed the appearance of emotional attraction to her as a friend primarily, not a woman, not romance still. I thought that she likes me and flirted recently, plus I got the info about our possible good relations if we'll meet IRL - I allowed my feelings to develop to her.
When I asked is she not indifferent to me? She said that has relations with other man and also finds some my personal qualities as weird. As I got feelings to her already that hurted me strongly. I've tried to break our communications to allow the feelings to go away as thought her behavior to me as dishonourable, as betrayal and the situation was not good for possibility of relations as I thought before. In that missed message she said about the other man at her, and if I'd read it - I'd was ready to all this in case I got feelings to her anyway - I'd was not shocked and deeply insulted what leaded to "bad" relation to her. Then I got the "good" info that her relations with than man are doubtfuly to be stable. Also I felt as inslulted, felt the pain of rejection and jealousy, started to feel doubts about her personality and goodness of our possible relations, I thought her behavior as inappropriate - I allowed myself to behave not good to her. This have leaded to my criticism against her behavior with me and her relations with than man, what she perceived emotionally badly and have insulted to me strongly, and in some degree she disliked my romantic attention as wanted to keep those not so good relations - her relation to me have become bad, critically bad. While I kept the feelings which can't go away easily and idiotically kept the hope she'll break the current relations, we'll meet and mb will love each other on the whole life.
She has stoped to communicate with me friendly, stoped normal communication, did not reply on some messages and questions - she stoped being polite and respectful with me. I tried for some monthes to return normal talking with her as I was attracted to her as a person [not only a woman], remembered she liked me in the past and asked me for the friendship herself, I saw the possibility for friendship between us [without open romantic interest], but sometimes I did what she disliked like criticism [against what she said, her relations, her pals, etc - that was relatively polite and reasonable but she did not like it anyway], she still just felt bad to me because of the past and affraid of another "uncomfortable" opinions from me, because of my romantic interest to her which pulled her away from other her men [also if I'd had more money like seems those ones in her perception, her interest to me was significantly higher], because she got higher interest to relations with other men already. She replied on some messages, but rejected to talk normally. When I've tried to clear the situation does she agree on normal everyday talking with me whith possibility to establish friendly talking she wanted for us in the past - she directly has rejected this, with saying that in past had much better opinion about me and I do what she dislikes like criticism against her pals and relations. I've perceived this as rough insulting against me and replied in the same style, - we got a quarrel. I've written her that good friendly communication between us is still possible, would be pleasant and useful for us both, but this needs agreements and patience to establish, this needs efforts. This did not help. Also the communication with her would hold my feelings to her and this may happen for years [I had similar in my past], while she seems is catched good on other men already, causing me the pain of her rejection and preventing the feelings to other women. So partly I was not caution with her and acted unconsciously against our friendly talking. I needed to leave the forum with her to stop seeing her messages and reduce thoughts to her, to help feelings to her fade away.
It's that ESI, E-9, mb w8 sx. Good, tender and kind girl, also beautiful and smart, 26 y.o. only. With slightly exotic ethnicity and look [yellow eyes] from Tatarstan. It's funny as the previous IEI girl I had significant feeling too was from Uzbekistan, also with partly asian/turks blood.
We both keep an offence on each other from what happened still. I keep feelings to her, though plan to switch from her. I hope sometimes we'll meet IRL to see each other and mb like each other... again. In case I'll not find the love earlier. I think we can love each other strongly, deeply and to have good marriage. What we could to get since autumn in case we'd met and she broke off her those doubtful relations. I doubt she'll have so good feelings with other man in the life, like we could to have. I know what semi-duality may to give in emotional part, I had this experience in my past.
wut!
yea i dont have time to read that haha
anyway i find it sad how sol keeps retelling the same stories about how women rejected him and him blaming it on socionics... almost seems psychotic
after considering being an extrovert, me being an extrovert is.. impossible. everyone and i mean everyone who has ever met me would describe me as quiet and shy. im also too introspective for my own good i think.
Last edited by maniac; 04-19-2018 at 01:27 PM.
My DCNH subtype list:
Disclaimer: I use my own supervision ring method to assess the subtype
Note: certain subtype in certain conditions is certainly more useful than in others. I might add that there might exist some malicious envy towards one subtype D->H->N->C->D so N's might see themselves as more boring than they really are and H's see themselves as too whimsical (I am) etc. Not very useful.
@niffer (SLE): very possible H. That(hint of ESIness) shines bit in her judgments. Not very adaptive towards role but something is there.
@Viktor (SLE): N, his attitude towards certain behavior and viewpoints points towards role (bit hesitant willfulness to apply and thinkstuff to further his life and maybe provide) but I think D could be possible.
@thehotelambush (LII): very clear N. Again clearly delineating between right/wrong. Role.
@wasp (EII): C, due to her ability to create artificial logical scenarios points towards ILE-shift in thinking.
@Sol (LSI): N, due to his standards being kind universally (as process type) albeit it is role (hence not strong) in firmly established environment.
@Number 9 large (SLE maybe SEE): D, datu use, m8. Full throttle with base.
@Olimpia (IEI): D, her drive to put ego block in use albeit lack ofrears their ugly heads. Likes to put (relatively so) super-ego block aside. I think she establishes very well base + creative dynamics so I think D type. Ip shifts towards Ej is bit contrary. Clearly not C energy in creative. I could put N under consideration.
@Aylen (IEI): H, it is rather easy to detect her large information consumption while remaining skeptical (albeit bit obscure sources) in that process. She clearly works with
@Tallmo (SEI): N, goal to find/search for comfortable OK place (mentally) while using good amount role.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I'm unanimously typed EII (alternatively: Fi-leading) on this forum, even the video I posted last year came back with mostly delta NF results, but when I posted that same video elsewhere, the results were gamma, specifically gamma SF, so then I tried it again sometime later. the results were introverted beta, slightly more LSI, but then I sent the same video to Sol out of curiosity, he typed me "not Fi" and I think he might actually be the closest of them all
just a passing thought. I think he can at least be trusted to go against the grain when he draws his type conclusions (sometimes to a more accurate end)
Where can we find this video?
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
link below, but I've since removed the video. I'm only posting the link because I believe you agreed with delta NF. the rest of the results I mentioned (gamma SF, introverted beta) came from a different group, so even at the time, I thought the delta NF typings might've just been confirmation bias.
(but I could be wrong)
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...de-2-years-ago
I initially had SEE vibes from N9 after I joined the forum, fwiw. This means nothing, and I can't VI worth a shit, but just my two cents.
This is because socionics is the most consistent, perfect system ever devised by our species.
ST Se. No Fi from N9.
Last edited by Hope; 04-19-2018 at 03:11 PM.
Sol, buddy, it's generally not a good idea to give so many details about your private life over a forum, people tend to take advantage of that, not saying everyone will but once you send the information into cyberspace it's "out there" forever. Not saying this as provocation, just free advice.
ok so no video anymore. Could you possibly show it again so I can check my confirmation bias? I probably never saw it.
EDIT: wait, I probably saw it. But i dont really remember much
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Your new avatar is really cute.
Also the whole DCNH thing I'm still having to wrap my head around...
thank you, it should be moving like this but it doesnt work.
I dunno how you got the previous one to work like that, but it's still cute all the same.thank you, it should be moving like this but it doesnt work.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
