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Thread: Conflict in ESI-LIE duality (ISFj and ENTj)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PussyInASarcophagus View Post
    https://youtu.be/rlhrdXoQ_k4

    Goes back to Strativeskaya's masterwork on this duality dyad. LIE going off the rails and betraying the 'team' or the dyad, at the very least.

    A pitch perfect example of LIE ESI duality gone wrong above. Yes, it's a video-game but I haven't seen any other digestible example that was more accurate.
    And ESIs can do no wrong, uh?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Based on that video, I'd keep her around. She just needs to settle down a bit, though. She needs to have someone explain to her why breaking plates is not efficient.
    Guy in the video is some ILI, clear activity
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    And ESIs can do no wrong, uh?
    lol In reality, we know that they most certainly can and do. How about when that unshakable Fi conviction about a particular feeling/belief is rooted in untruth? And they take (excessive) action based on feelings (which aren't facts), the (limited) sensory data before them, strung together by a shaky hunch they're convinced is the underlying truth (when their intuition is not a strength for them), and with little to no care about whether any conclusions based on the aforementioned make objective sense.

    LIEs, along with most other intuitives, are prone to "scatter brained" fuck ups that may result in several missed phone calls, a misplaced or lost phone, a missed date/birthday/engagement, etc... with willful, intentional deception playing no active part and yet a ESI may be utterly convinced that LIE is cheating and doing a poor job of covering their tracks. lol As if LIEs are not excellent strategists capable of all sorts of capers and covert operations when and if we choose to be. But try to convince the ESI that you aren't lying. Even if they give in and say that they believe you, they really don't because whatever evidence they can literally see along with their experiences, matter the most. They can most definitely fuck up a relationship all by themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Guy in the video is some ILI, clear activity
    He doesn’t VI exactly like any of the ILI’s that I know, but I can’t think of a better type for him.

    And yes, I agree. Activity.

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    ESIs seem to want space (autonomy) but also to never feel alone, and can sometimes be very self-righteous and selfish; as a punishment, they'll sometimes withhold all displays of affection. LIEs seem to like engaging the field knowing that there's a solid base at home, and to often challenge and control with ruthless disregard; as a punishment, they'll sometimes invade someone's space and metaphorically show who's boss. In the beginning, LIEs seem to have a fascination with self-contained personalities and the challenge of conquering them - but this can wear rather thin after a number of years of being together. ESIs often admire people who can take control - so long as it's not them being controlled. Most conflict between these two seems to have elements of the preceding characteristics in various proportions - most minor and easily forgotten. Note that duals usually have the insight to maximise the hurt to their partners should something really break down such as infidelity.......

    a.k.a I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 08-06-2019 at 11:39 AM. Reason: added "being controlled" to clarify

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    lol In reality, we know that they most certainly can and do. How about when that unshakable Fi conviction about a particular feeling/belief is rooted in untruth? And they take (excessive) action based on feelings (which aren't facts), the (limited) sensory data before them, strung together by a shaky hunch they're convinced is the underlying truth (when their intuition is not a strength for them), and with little to no care about whether any conclusions based on the aforementioned make objective sense.

    LIEs, along with most other intuitives, are prone to "scatter brained" fuck ups that may result in several missed phone calls, a misplaced or lost phone, a missed date/birthday/engagement, etc... with willful, intentional deception playing no active part and yet a ESI may be utterly convinced that LIE is cheating and doing a poor job of covering their tracks. lol As if LIEs are not excellent strategists capable of all sorts of capers and covert operations when and if we choose to be. But try to convince the ESI that you aren't lying. Even if they give in and say that they believe you, they really don't because whatever evidence they can literally see along with their experiences, matter the most. They can most definitely fuck up a relationship all by themselves.
    This is unbelievably accurate. Thank u love

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Default LIE and ESI stubbornness

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    ESIs seem to want space (autonomy) but also to never feel alone, and can sometimes be very self-righteous and selfish; as a punishment, they'll sometimes withhold all displays of affection. LIEs seem to like engaging the field knowing that there's a solid base at home, and to often challenge and control with ruthless disregard; as a punishment, they'll sometimes invade someone's space and metaphorically show who's boss. In the beginning, LIEs seem to have a fascination with self-contained personalities and the challenge of conquering them - but this can wear rather thin after a number of years of being together. ESIs often admire people who can take control - so long as it's not them being controlled. Most conflict between these two seems to have elements of the preceding characteristics in various proportions - most minor and easily forgotten. Note that duals usually have the insight to maximise the hurt to their partners should something really break down such as infidelity.......

    a.k.a I/O
    Yes, both LIEs and ESIs are matched in their complete stubbornness. And for ESIs giving them freedom is at the core of their being, including financial freedom. The ESI-Se I dated was of the opinion that money should be shared freely amongst lovers, even so early in the relationship. He worked as a waiter, which didn't earn too much. He aspired to become a model, but that is a costly endeavour before it starts paying out. He repeatedly insisted on borrowing money from me and ignored my explanations that I'm a student and cannot easily miss money as of now. I felt pressured by him and as a consequence started digging my heels in. Everytime that he brought up the money topic, I repeated my explanation that I cannot spontaneously lend him a hundred bucks. This frustrated him, as he felt like I treated him as a child, instead of an equal. I genuinely liked him, it saddens me that this broke us apart.

    At a later financial request I offered reserving the hotel room for him, instead of sending the money. If he'd provide me the name of the hotel, I would book the place. Instead he wanted me to send him the money, so he could book it himself. He wanted me to trust him, but the fact that he asked to borrow money so often for different things didn't show any financial sensibility from him. I have been raised in the Netherlands, which has strict morals regarding money, whereas he was French Canadian. I would have been happy to support him financially, but by purchasing that which he needs, instead of giving him a blank cheque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    Yes, both LIEs and ESIs are matched in their complete stubbornness. And for ESIs giving them freedom is at the core of their being, including financial freedom. The ESI-Se I dated was of the opinion that money should be shared freely amongst lovers, even so early in the relationship. He worked as a waiter, which didn't earn too much. He aspired to become a model, but that is a costly endeavour before it starts paying out. He repeatedly insisted on borrowing money from me and ignored my explanations that I'm a student and cannot easily miss money as of now. I felt pressured by him and as a consequence started digging my heels in. Everytime that he brought up the money topic, I repeated my explanation that I cannot spontaneously lend him a hundred bucks. This frustrated him, as he felt like I treated him as a child, instead of an equal. I genuinely liked him, it saddens me that this broke us apart.

    At a later financial request I offered reserving the hotel room for him, instead of sending the money. If he'd provide me the name of the hotel, I would book the place. Instead he wanted me to send him the money, so he could book it himself. He wanted me to trust him, but the fact that he asked to borrow money so often for different things didn't show any financial sensibility from him. I have been raised in the Netherlands, which has strict morals regarding money, whereas he was French Canadian. I would have been happy to support him financially, but by purchasing that which he needs, instead of giving him a blank cheque.

    I hated it when my LSI ex-GF would ask me for money. I made a lot more than she did, but she seemed to work less as I became her supply, so this was some kind of interaction that she was trying to set up, almost as theater.

    I didn't mind giving her money because she wasn't very expensive (OK, now think about that. That's not a thought I've ever had with an ESI.), but rather it was the WAY she asked for money.

    I believe that when a couple is out, they should each be able to spend freely as they wish. Since the LSI almost never had money, if she wanted something, I paid for it, which I didn't have a problem with. If I knew we were going shopping, I'd just give her enough money to cover it before we went out. But she seemed to prefer to wait until we were somewhere in public, then she'd find some orchid or something and say to me, "Will you buy me that?"

    God, I hated that. I'm not your dad. If you want it, just buy it yourself. If you don't have money, then ask for cash before we're in front of some salesperson.
    @Armitage, I don't think this is type-related, although I don't have a lot of experience with types and money. The LSI was the only GF who did that, although I did have one ESI GF who paid for exactly nothing. I don't know how she managed that without it bothering me at the time, but she did.

    All the other ESIs and other types I've dated paid for what they bought, unless I specifically invited them out to eat. Even the ESI who was flat broke paid her way.

    So your ESI was probably trying to involve you in some story that he wanted to live but which you didn't. Or maybe it was to hook you into a relationship with him by him owing you money, so you'd not forget to call.
    Either way, you need to use a four-letter word when referring to him: Next!

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    It sounds like the LSI preferred the freedom of deciding what she wanted on the spot, instead of having to plan ahead to ask you for enough money in advance? Impulse buying as the ultimate form of financial freedom.

    I was actually very willing to call him, until he started asking me for money. So it wasn't the latter. The former might have motivated him, though, as he tried to eat his cake and have it at the same time too. That sure backfired on him, as now he has neither. It's a peculiar way of thinking, to risk all for a bit of money. Something he realized too late, given his sad look when I broke up with him.

    I need someone more mature, pity he wasn't, but I cannot do anything about that. I have to move on, indeed. C'est la vie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    It sounds like the LSI preferred the freedom of deciding what she wanted on the spot, instead of having to plan ahead to ask you for enough money in advance? Impulse buying as the ultimate form of financial freedom.
    No, @Armitage. She wasn't impulsive or indecisive. Instead, it was an Se thing. "Hah! I know you hate it when I ask you to buy me things. So buy this for me, right now." It was an Introverted Aggressor move on an Extroverted Victim, and I've never seen this in any of the ESIs that I've dated.

    She also asked me to carry her purse on several occasions. At first, I thought she just needed an extra hand, but then she did it again and each time, she went out of her way to say later that she was sorry that she made me carry her purse. Lol. Right.

    You see some pretty weird things on dates, but again, I think that was a Beta Aggressor move, because I haven't seen that at all from ESIs. I think that ESIs are just more fem-oriented than LSIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I was actually very willing to call him, until he started asking me for money. So it wasn't the latter. The former might have motivated him, though, as he tried to eat his cake and have it at the same time too. That sure backfired on him, as now he has neither. It's a peculiar way of thinking, to risk all for a bit of money. Something he realized too late, given his sad look when I broke up with him.

    I need someone more mature, pity he wasn't, but I cannot do anything about that. I have to move on, indeed. C'est la vie.

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    She wasn't impulsive or indecisive. Instead, it was an Se thing. "Hah! I know you hate it when I ask you to buy me things. So buy this for me, right now."
    If I had been dating her it probably would have ended in a game of chicken, with her trying to make me buy stuff for her, while I would be trying to make her say "please" for it. I find it nonsensical how people derive their self-worth from making other people do trivial acts as a display of power. If I ever want to be pushed around, I would simply visit my ESTP mathematics uncle.
    ( He orders everyone in the family around. I'm the only one of my side of the family whom he actually makes conversation with, or more exactly debates with and I debate back. He seems to hold me in favourable regard, though, which might be part of the beneficiary-benefactor, I believe? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It was an Introverted Aggressor move on an Extroverted Victim, and I've never seen this in any of the ESIs that I've dated. You see some pretty weird things on dates, but again, I think that was a Beta Aggressor move, because I haven't seen that at all from ESIs. I think that ESIs are just more fem-oriented than LSIs.
    I'm pretty sure that my guy was an ESI, however, given how intimacy was very important to him. Whereas the LSI I previously went on a date with and who looked for a long-term relationship focused almost solely on sex and superficiality. Additionally, before the ESI and I went dating, he asked me a battery of questions to test if I would really stay faithful to him. #Strong_Fi_Weak_Ne One of these questions was if I already came out of the closet to my family. #Family_values He had the tendency to take things personally and reprimand me for it, or even try to repay the perceived sleight with another. #Tit_for_Tat While a LSI would not have taken offence to what I said and would have simply shrugged it off. Also, he wasn't a star at economics, because when he needed to stay in a hotel for the weekend, he wanted us to book together for one long stay, so we could get the discount. But I would only arrive on Wednesday, which meant that being eligble for the discount would cost us more instead of less. #Weak_Te I know that there is generally a lot of discussion about mistyping people, but these are some of the reasons why I strongly think that he was ESI, instead of LSI or any other Beta.

    In hindsight, I think that the ESI insisted on borrowing money from me, because we were a team as a couple. He even asked me: "If it was you who needed money, would I then neither be allowed to help you out?" And he did need the money to pursue his dream of becoming a model in Paris, as living there is very expensive.
    Last edited by Armitage; 11-10-2021 at 08:08 PM.

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    @Armitage, I didn't doubt your typing of him. I didn't mean to give that impression, either.

    He actually does sound like an ESI from all of your descriptions.

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    To answer the question from my experience, thus far I've had no major fights over things with my ESI girlfriend. Mostly just little things that don't really matter. For example, we share a language class together, and I'll sometimes be doing something else like drawing diagrams or something else like that, and she'll tell me very bluntly to do my work. I'll resist her the first couple of times she tells me to start working, and then at the last 15-20 minutes of class, I'm able to get the assignment done. She thinks it's kind of crazy how I can push things off at the last minute and still get shit done.

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    This ESI I attempted a dualization with, complained that I was a "nerd with no life" and demanded that I should get some "dignity". Basically, she attacked my PoLR and my DS. But before this jab happened, I basically had told her that "she was a wacko, who was emotionally fried, and would be miserable all the rest of her life". So you can see how this "conflict" might go about. Pretty sure we actually just wanted to help each other in reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    This ESI I attempted a dualization with, complained that I was a "nerd with no life" and demanded that I should get some "dignity". Basically, she attacked my PoLR and my DS. But before this jab happened, I basically had told her that "she was a wacko, who was emotionally fried, and would be miserable all the rest of her life". So you can see how this "conflict" might go about. Pretty sure we actually just wanted to help each other in reality.
    Are you sure she told you that your a "nerd with no life" in seriousness, or is it possible she was teasing you?

    My ESI girlfriend calls me a dork and an asshole all the time, and it's basically always just her teasing me for fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Intellectual View Post
    Are you sure she told you that your a "nerd with no life" in seriousness, or is it possible she was teasing you?

    My ESI girlfriend calls me a dork and an asshole all the time, and it's basically always just her teasing me for fun.
    You're right. I suspect she was teasing me. But she was also angry at me for a few reasons so she probably wanted to get back at me too.

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    Usually happens when LIE runs into money problems.

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    Probably the biggest point of conflict in the LIE in such a relationship is perhaps how ESIs treat us (especially in public). They are very "bitchy" types, which can create problems and frustrations in the LIE.

    LIEs are known for handling ESI's constant emotional battering and criticisms fairly well. We tend to deal with the ESIs criticisms using humor to soothe tensions, however, that absolutely DOES NOT mean we like being criticized. We may be able to deal with it well externally, but internally, those kind of criticisms can really hurt, and get it can get to a point of being unhealthy. They especially do this around others, because they have their guard up around everyone (except for the LIE when they're alone). LIEs do not always want that; we do not want to have to deal with ESIs when they put up their emotional shield anytime they're in public. It's frustrating, and even somewhat hurts us.

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