If LIEs are forceful, why do EIIs like us? (ENTj and INFj)

[Zero]

as an LIE I find myself using force often and even unconsciously. I force my surrounding people to have a certain impression of me which I see will benefit me the most in the future, using my Ni. Aren't EIIs supposed to hate this type of behavior? Yet two of my closest friends are of this type and they even sometimes admire this trait about me. EIIs in general admire a trait in others, even if they dislike it at first, but find it is not very unethical and has caused their benefit (or survival from potential trouble) later on. For the same reason SLEs are attractive for them at a distance.

I also have some sort of supervisory effect on them in this area?! Because they are sometimes unaware of how they come off to the outside world (in some areas), as in they might do something very important and have the opportunity to make it a big deal and create reputation for themselves, but they usually miss this opportunity for no good reason. However one of my EII friends is an overachiever and the other is an underachiever, I don't understand why this happens while they are so much alike. Probably achieving doesn't really have much to do with TIM. I consider myself an underachiever (yet keep giving advice )

Why does this happen? being aware of my nature they even give me hope and motivation to achieve the Se related goals.

[niffer]

- We often like or feel protected by those who have strengths that can help cover for our weaknesses
- Especially in Model B, LIE would have the same kind of Se+ in their HA as LSEs would for their demonstrative function. I like the Fi HA of some ILIs too for this reason perhaps

[Olimpia]

Their Dual LSE has 4D Se and can be quite forceful if a particular situation requires it of them. In that sense, an LIE can resemble their Dual sometimes. But the differences become apparent once it is clear you actually value Se, which they don't. An LIE is gonna try to use Se more in a certain try-hard way, much more than an LSE will try. LSEs limit their use of Se or regulate it much more. But whenever they do use it, it is quite effective, much more effective than the Se of an LIE.

P.S: In Model G, LIE and LSE don't have the same Se.

[FDG]

Te is also a forceful function.

[Olimpia]

EIIs like LIEs mostly for their Te, obviously...

[Bertrand]

it puts the semi in semi dual

[Tallmo]

EIIs duals are also forceful, with demonstrative Se. It's not just behaviour. It is about the whole IM flow that should match or not, a base function will force the partner to pay their whole attention to that type of conciousness. Mobilizing will do it less

same thing with any semi dual pair

[Muddy]

The simplest answer is that EIIs like LIE's because they are Te base, that doesn't mean however that the Se valuing differences aren't decreasing the quality of the relationship compared to how it would be with an LSE. XSEs Se manifest as making them stern and forceful about maintaining peace (Se channeling into Si), while an XIEs weaker and valued Se mobilizing manifest as them often trying hard to be forceful, as the HA tends to be sensitive and prone to overcompensating.

[The Reality Denialist]

EII's like people who can push the force away (obviously with a force) so to speak.

[Singu]

Why don't you just try asking them why they like you or your specific behavior X, instead of just making assumptions...

Funny how pretty much everything in this thread is just assumptions. It has nothing whatsoever about those specific people.

[Zero]

Why don't you just try asking them why they like you or your specific behavior X, instead of just making assumptions...

Funny how pretty much everything in this thread is just assumptions. It has nothing whatsoever about those specific people.

Sorry but do we have a problem I am unaware of? It seems you try mocking me recently. I don't see a reason why I should not communicate my thoughts on a forum designed specifically for this purpose.

[Zero]

- We often like or feel protected by those who have strengths that can help cover for our weaknesses
- Especially in Model B, LIE would have the same kind of Se+ in their HA as LSEs would for their demonstrative function. I like the Fi HA of some ILIs too for this reason perhaps

Hmm yeah what I'm actually trying to find out here is how the Se PoLR in EII functions other than not being able to force others.
You see "force" is a very generalized word actually. EIIs themselves somehow force others in some ways by insisting on not forcing them. Like if I ask my EII friend what she wants to do for the evening and where she wants to go she will say "you decide", even if I insist she should decide this time, and while by this she doesn't want to force her opinion on me for where we should hang out, she's also somehow forcing me to decide
Btw are you a EII or a SLE?

[Sol]

to be forceful relates to Se, what is not LIE's significant trait
EII like LIE for the complementary traits. semiduality is the controversive IR, unlike duality

[niffer]

Hmm yeah what I'm actually trying to find out here is how the Se PoLR in EII functions other than not being able to force others.
You see "force" is a very generalized word actually. EIIs themselves somehow force others in some ways by insisting on not forcing them. Like if I ask my EII friend what she wants to do for the evening and where she wants to go she will say "you decide", even if I insist she should decide this time, and while by this she doesn't want to force her opinion on me for where we should hang out, she's also somehow forcing me to decide
Btw are you a EII or a SLE?

That’s an interesting point. It does “force” the other person in the relationship to have to do everything in a way. Forcing others to use force in the EII’s place. I’m SLE.

[Adam Strange]

Here is a pretty good explanation of why LIE's and EII's get along.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

[empineer]

as an LIE I find myself using force often and even unconsciously. I force my surrounding people to have a certain impression of me which I see will benefit me the most in the future, using my Ni

Force. Forcefulness. In what area? How do you define force?
LIEs are time-managing fact-based freaks,
ILEs are extra-flexible confusing freaks,
SEEs are "look how fascinating I can be" freaks,
EIIs are "oh please don't hurt my feelings although I am super-strong, let me think about it longer a bit" freaks,
LSEs are postponing, "do ethical facts really even matter" managing freaks,
and SLEs are weakpoint-filled confused freaks.
Any other questions?

[empineer]

The ENTj is attracted by the INFj's responsiveness, emotional sensitivity, helpfulness, his/her desire to be of service, to charm, to aid a friend, an inclination to sacrifice oneself for his/her partner (because something like this is also "coded" in the ethical program of LIE's dual, the ESI).

Meanwhile, the EII finds attractive everything in the LIE that at least partially overlaps with the program aspect of "logic of actions" of EII's dual type LSE – LIE's persistence in achieving goals, logical acumen, inexhaustible energy, his preference for creativity and innovation – as well as by the characteristic traits of this type: LIE's cheerfulness and optimism.

[Minde]

EIIs like LIEs mostly for their Te, obviously...

And the Ej-ness. Temperament is important, too.

Hmm yeah what I'm actually trying to find out here is how the Se PoLR in EII functions other than not being able to force others.
You see "force" is a very generalized word actually. EIIs themselves somehow force others in some ways by insisting on not forcing them. Like if I ask my EII friend what she wants to do for the evening and where she wants to go she will say "you decide", even if I insist she should decide this time, and while by this she doesn't want to force her opinion on me for where we should hang out, she's also somehow forcing me to decide

Ijs are either aggressors or childlike, and there is overlap in thinking/processing. Kids can be quite the dictators, lol. Childlike types tend to "ask" others to care for them, to cater to them. Aggressors make things happen themselves, or make others do them. Childlike ones more make the space for someone else to do what they want. Both kind of expect that the world should revolve around them, heh.

So, yeah, that's a great example.


If you want to try to get an EII to make a decision like that, I can say what often works with me, because I can very thoroughly relate to that situation: When my boyfriend asks me where I want to go or what my preference is for any given thing, my first instinct is often to balk and ask for him to decide. Sometimes he will, but more and more he's starting to basically just give me time to think about it. He'll sometimes ask leading questions that try to draw out any clues or bits of what I might be wanting. For example either-or, yes-no, or specific detail questions, "What types of food appeal to you right now?" Alternatively, sometimes he gives a partial preference "That sushi we had at [place] was good. Do you feel like sushi?" And then he gives me space to ramble and change my mind as I mull over various options.

Another thing that motivates me to make preference-style decisions is if I'm "helping" by doing so. So, for example, my boyfriend might say that he's busy working through a separate problem and could I help out by choosing someplace to go. Even then I can be insecure that my ideas won't be good enough, but he's good at easing my fears about that. "I love you even if you choose a terrible restaurant."

[Sol]

And the Ej-ness. Temperament is important, too.

J, E are important. J - to think in one style. E - introverts are leaned to more active people. I - extraverts are leaned to more calm ones.

Temperament is not part of normal Socionics and hypothetically mb different at the same type.

> If you want to try to get an EII to make a decision like that, I can say what often works with me, because I can very thoroughly relate to that situation: When my boyfriend asks me where I want to go or what my preference is for any given thing, my first instinct is often to balk and ask for him to decide. Sometimes he will, but more and more he's starting to basically just give me time to think about it. He'll sometimes ask leading questions that try to draw out any clues or bits of what I might be wanting.

he has good feelings to you as significantly thinks about your needs 1st of all, despite what types are there

[Minde]

he has good feelings to you as significantly thinks about your needs 1st of all, despite what types are there

Thank you for saying that. I agree.

[Rebelondeck]

@Zero Are you implying that EIIs can't be forceful? I've known a few of these velvet hammers who'd charge at the enemy like a Jeanne d'Arc - and weren't always "ethical". Nine-tenths of a type is below the surface and there's a huge gap between admiring someone's tactics or behaviour and living with them.

a.k.a. I/O

[Lord Pixel]

I notice I respect the Se of LIEs but can be pparanoid of it, always on the look out of it sort of expectong it to be used in a way that will confirm why I should be wary of it. I think my respect of it comes from it being a weakness in myself so it just causes me to be like "how do you do that, how are you like that?" Since I simply cannot fathom how to be like that. But I also notice how I do not value Se myself when some of them use more vulgar or simple humor that I do not understand or find funny much. Be forceful with an EII and you will see they do not like it if not in that moment at some point if it is done continuously. And when you are forceful with an EII (this is true for me at least) there is a silent "F**K YOU!" That is whispered in my mind, like an extreme moment of hatred, it goes a way quick but is strongly ignited inside in the moment, and slowly makes me start to distance myself if done too much. After learning socionics so recogbize when people do this they do not mean to intentionally piss me off like I previously thought, but even with that knowledge my internal reaction is still the same.