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Thread: Not Understanding Sarcasm

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    Default Not Understanding Sarcasm

    Hi, everyone.

    I've mentioned this before, but I think my IEE (possibly EIE) friend's girlfriend is an LII. However, I'm not so sure if that's the case anymore. Alongside what I learned from the Se PoLR thread, she also has this weird thing where she can't, at all, understand sarcasm. I know LIIs are known for being literal (e.g.
    Mr. or Ms. Literal, who says exactly what (s)he means, and trusts that you will too.
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t..._LII_composite) but since they have strong Ni and intuition in general, they should be able to read between the lines to a degree, no? Sarcasm is a major aspect of my humour and whenever I make a sarcastic remark around her she literally cannot tell and has to clarify with me every time - it's quite funny actually, like a child not understanding a big word that is written.

    Besides this, she also has the mentality of, "Run at it with a sword to defend your beliefs" (these are her words, not mine) in that if her core principles are crossed, then she'll immediately begin to defend them, perhaps not physically, though it's possible that she goes to that level. Some descriptions present LII as a revolutionary (notably Reinin and Malysha), though others present them as more level-headed. Most present them as careful individuals who do not act impulsively, which leads me to think that she is not an LII. I don't know if LSIs would act in such a way, but if you have any suggestions let me know.

    EDIT: I'm quite certain she's a Ti base type, which is why I'm only considering LII and LSI. If there's reason to think To base is suspect, let me know.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-05-2019 at 12:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Hi, everyone.

    I've mentioned this before, but I think my IEE (possibly EIE) friend's girlfriend is an LII. However, I'm not so sure if that's the case anymore. Alongside what I learned from the Se PoLR thread, she also has this weird thing where she can't, at all, understand sarcasm. I know LIIs are known for being literal (e.g. http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t..._LII_composite) but since they have strong Ni and intuition in general, they should be able to read between the lines to a degree, no? Sarcasm is a major aspect of my humour and whenever I make a sarcastic remark around her she literally cannot tell and has to clarify with me every time - it's quite funny actually, like a child not understanding a big word that is written.

    Besides this, she also has the mentality of, "Run at it with a sword to defend your beliefs" (these are her words, not mine) in that if her core principles are crossed, then she'll immediately begin to defend them, perhaps not physically, though it's possible that she goes to that level. Some descriptions present LII as a revolutionary (notably Reinin and Malysha), though others present them as more level-headed. Most present them as careful individuals who do not act impulsively, which leads me to think that she is not an LII. I don't know if LSIs would act in such a way, but if you have any suggestions let me know.

    EDIT: I'm quite certain she's a Ti base type, which is why I'm only considering LII and LSI. If there's reason to suspect Ti base, let me know.
    "Run at it with a sword to defend your beliefs" sounds way more like LSI than LII to me.

    OK, here's where I go off the rails. Is she enamored with Samurai culture? Does she dress in black, with white and red accents? If so, she could be LSI.

    My LSI ex-GF also had trouble telling when I was joking with her. I had to be really, really obviously joking, otherwise she would take what I said literally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    "Run at it with a sword to defend your beliefs" sounds way more like LSI than LII to me.

    OK, here's where I go off the rails. Is she enamored with Samurai culture? Does she dress in black, with white and red accents? If so, she could be LSI.
    Too independent for a samurai. More like a ronin. /s
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    "Run at it with a sword to defend your beliefs" sounds way more like LSI than LII to me.

    OK, here's where I go off the rails. Is she enamored with Samurai culture? Does she dress in black, with white and red accents? If so, she could be LSI.
    If I didn't get sarcasm and took things too literal then I would retype LSI right now. Not due to anime either because I don't watch it.

    Tomoe Gozen!




    Edit: FTR, I don't think LSI have too much trouble with sarcasm.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If I didn't get sarcasm and took things too literal then I would retype LSI right now. Not due to anime either because I don't watch it.

    Tomoe Gozen!


    What do you currently type as?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    What do you currently type as?
    ILI


    j/k

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If I didn't get sarcasm and took things too literal then I would retype LSI right now. Not due to anime either because I don't watch it.

    Tomoe Gozen!




    Edit: FTR, I don't think LSI have too much trouble with sarcasm.
    I tend to agree, but she might have been reacting to the half of me that is EIE and been listening very hard for all the possible ways I could mislead her. She'd sometimes pause for a second after I said something as a joke, then she'd crack a grin. But that took a while for her to learn.

    *EDIT*
    After a few months, she told me she liked the fact that I never lied to her or misled her. Apparently, this was something new to her.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-04-2019 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    ILI


    j/k
    Lol, ILI 4w5 would be weird, but I can see it possible in some circumstances. So I've narrowed it down to 14 types. Probably ethical cuz 4w5 and probably beta cuz vibes.
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    what about her?

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    humour understanding is better at N types

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    It's called Autism or Asperger's.

    Difficulties in appreciating non-literal speech, such as irony in ASDs (Autism Spectrum Disorders) have been explained as due to impairments in social understanding and in recognizing the speaker’s communicative intention.

    It has been shown that irony comprehension requires the acquisition of the shared knowledge and communicative strategies adopted by a social community
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3991690/

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychology Today
    People with Autism Spectrum Disorder Take Things Literally

    Okay, you say, theory of mind might explain why person A misunderstands person B’s colloquialism because person A always uses language literally. BUT: it does not necessarily explain why person A always thinks literally in the first place. Well, actually, it does. The total explanation is a long one, but in essence, if a person has always lacked the ability to understand that other people think differently, then this could have led to a very restricted view of the world and the language used. If you then throw in the fact that people with ASD find themselves in situations where language use is restricted, it becomes clear that it’s unlikely this problem will rectify itself through practice.
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ings-literally

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    I've thought about this, but I'm not qualified to diagnose or even reasonably speculate if someone has a developmental disorder. At a high level, though, she doesn't demonstrate any of the other symptoms/characteristics, and so I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that she's autistic. I think she's just a person who takes things too literally.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I've thought about this, but I'm not qualified to diagnose or even reasonably speculate if someone has a developmental disorder. At a high level, though, she doesn't demonstrate any of the other symptoms/characteristics, and so I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that she's autistic. I think she's just a person who takes things too literally.
    That's why Autism is a spectrum, some people only show very mild symptoms.

    At its root though, it has to do with difficulty comprehending social contexts, since sarcasm and irony has greatly to do with understanding social contexts.

    That's why another point is that it also has to do with culture, since sarcasm and irony mostly only developed in Western culture, and it's not really existent in other cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Lol, ILI 4w5 would be weird, but I can see it possible in some circumstances. So I've narrowed it down to 14 types. Probably ethical cuz 4w5 and probably beta cuz vibes.
    Heh sorry about that. I don't want to derail your thread but...

    I have been watching a lot of documentaries on the brain and neuroscience lately. I don't think some people are aware that the brain and how we perceive reality is too complex to be covered by socionics. I find myself going to neuroscience because psychology only takes you so far. I recommend a series I watched this weekend to anyone who wants to check it out. It is on amazon prime for those who have it. We are a pattern seeking species that naturally looks for meaning, some more than others or maybe it is others just don't notice this about themselves.

    This is the first episode.



    I am going to give my unpopular opinion... Socionics is limited because it doesn't explain how cognition works so I like to think of it as a philosophy on social interaction > cognitive ability. I think IEI is best fit fwiw. Socionics is a closed system in many ways. It offers no solutions to the problems people who seek it out have other than sticking to certain types of people for more comfort. Life is not just about comfort or happiness, for me at least. There is much more to it. I want more. The thing is we tend to type those we are comfortable with into more favorable IR types and those we dislike into less favorable IR.

    It can leave people spinning in endless circles and still unsatisfied in their relationships if they don't match up to their idea of duality. I didn't come to it for relationship issues. I know how to to be in a relationship and can get along with all types if I choose to. I think if I hadn't been in relationship with someone who would be considered ILI, according to socionics, I would have missed out on so much. I have no regrets. I am a better person for it.

    If I was able to go back in time and meet with Jung I have no doubt he would "diagnose" me an introverted intuitive, or maybe schizophrenic, at the beginning of his journey. lol That might not have been a good thing before he went through his own version of "psychosis". I think it helped him and opened his eyes to an unseen reality so he could understand things he didn't before. I will always feel drawn to his work, even as our knowledge of how the brain works grows. He learned and understood things that most people will never understand in a lifetime. If people think I idolize him they are wrong. He just experienced realizations I also experienced (back to my childhood). I believe we all have access to the subconscious and the collective unconscious and it is as easy as turning a dial on a radio to tune into it, for some people.

    I have learned so much on human psychology from my time here (5 years) but it probably isn't what people would expect. I am an observer for the most part. I also participate so I can get people to reveal things that help me understand.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Can be LII or LSI. Anyways,... LSI (like ehm... some SOLipsistic minds here) might refuse to accepts non tangible concepts like infinity in life like normal distribution goes from -infinity to infinity. Where as LII's might have different problems with sarcasm.
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    ime non-intuitive logical types struggle the most with this. Makes sense, as it requires emotional empathy + insight to detect sarcasm. Otherwise you would naturally take everything literally too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    ime non-intuitive logical types struggle the most with this. Makes sense, as it requires emotional empathy + insight to detect sarcasm. Otherwise you would naturally take everything literally too much.
    Maybe you can help me out with this. Is understanding other's emotions more Fe or Fi? It seems more Fe than Fi, but I don't really understand the "ethics of relations" since that also sounds like understanding how people feel and how those feelings would affect relations between individuals.

    My take on it is that not understanding sarcasm would be more about naïveté than anything. Naïve people are more likely to take things literally since they're not shrewd enough to make critical judgments. They're innocent, unaffected, tame, inexperienced, and perhaps unwise. This could be type related - alpha SFs being most naïve, delta STs or gamma NTs being least?

    What do you think about this?
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    In my family sarcasm is pretty normal and funny. All quadras are/were represented but primarily beta. We tease each other a lot. We can all pick up on it. I would say my ESE sister is the most naive in many ways yet she still picks up on it. Sometimes it will fly right over her head if it is ironic. This is how it became a thing among my siblings to say to her "at least you're pretty". It is not meant to hurt her feelings though and she finds it funny when we say it but can fake a pout. Then she will laugh. At some point I decided it does hurt her feelings more than she let on so I don't really say that anymore.

    I am not sure if this is a factor at all but she is the only one of my siblings who tested with an average IQ and was a C (+) student. No one pushed her to do better in school because she excelled in other areas. She got a pass when the rest of us were pushed to get high grades.

    She is less likely to use it than my EII sister but both do use it to a certain extent to tease. My IEI brother and I use it more in an ironic way. It really isn't mean spirited, usually, unless we are in an argument. My mom does not use it. She is LSI. She is not naive but English is not her first language either. I think sometimes she misses it due to that. She is more literal than the rest of us. My ILI step dad used it more when he was annoyed with us so it wasn't the playful kind.

    Kids pick up the ability to detect sarcasm at a young age. Pexman and her colleagues in Calgary showed children short puppet shows in which one of the puppets made either a literal or a sarcastic statement. The children were asked to put a toy duck in a box if they thought the puppet was being nice. If they thought the puppet was being mean, they were supposed to put a toy shark in a box. Children as young as 5 were able to detect sarcastic statements quickly.

    Pexman said she has encountered children as young as 4 who say, “smooth move, mom” at a parent’s mistake. And she says parents who report being sarcastic themselves have kids who are better at understanding sarcasm.

    There appear to be regional variations in sarcasm. A study that compared college students from upstate New York with students from near Memphis, Tennessee, found that the Northerners were more likely to suggest sarcastic jibes when asked to fill in the dialogue in a hypothetical conversation.

    Northerners also were more likely to think sarcasm was funny: 56 percent of Northerners found sarcasm humorous while only 35 percent of Southerners did. The New Yorkers and male students from either location were more likely to describe themselves as sarcastic.

    There isn’t just one way to be sarcastic or a single sarcastic tone of voice. In his book, Haiman lists more than two dozen ways that a speaker or a writer can indicate sarcasm with pitch, tone, volume, pauses, duration and punctuation. For example: “Excuse me” is sincere. “Excuuuuuse me” is sarcastic, meaning, “I’m not sorry.”

    According to Haiman, a sarcastic version of “thank you” comes out as a nasal “thank yewww” because speaking the words in a derisive snort wrinkles up your nose into an expression of disgust. That creates a primitive signal of insincerity, Haiman says. The message: These words taste bad in my mouth and I don’t mean them.

    In an experiment by Patricia Rockwell, a sarcasm expert at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette, observers watched the facial expressions of people making sarcastic statements. Expressions around the mouth, as opposed to the eyes or eyebrows, were most often cited as a clue to a sarcastic statement.

    The eyes may also be a giveaway. Researchers from California Polytechnic University found that test subjects who were asked to make sarcastic statements were less likely to look the listener in the eye. The researchers suggest that lack of eye contact is a signal to the listener: “This statement is a lie.”

    Another experiment that analyzed sarcasm in American TV sitcoms asserted that there’s a “blank face” version of sarcasm delivery.

    Despite all these clues, detecting sarcasm can be difficult. There are a lot of things that can cause our sarcasm detectors to break down, scientists are finding. Conditions including autism, closed head injuries, brain lesions and schizophrenia can interfere with the ability to perceive sarcasm.

    Researchers at the University of California at San Francisco, for example, recently found that people with frontotemporal dementia have difficulty detecting sarcasm. Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin has suggested that a loss of the ability to pick up on sarcasm could be used as an early warning sign to help diagnose the disease. “If someone who has the sensitivity loses it, that’s a bad sign,” Rankin says. “If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that’s when I would worry.”

    Many parts of the brain are involved in processing sarcasm, according to recent brain imaging studies. Rankin has found that the temporal lobes and the parahippocampus are involved in picking up the sarcastic tone of voice. While the left hemisphere of the brain seems to be responsible for interpreting literal statements, the right hemisphere and both frontal lobes seem to be involved in figuring out when the literal statement is intended to mean exactly the opposite, according to a study by researchers at the University of Haifa.
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    We were raised in the Northeast which makes some sense, when it comes to finding it funny, according to the article.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    I know an SEE who eats turkey sandwiches a lot. Is it related?

    I know an SEE who uses sarcasm a lot. Is it related?

    It's the same thing. It's correlation and not causation. There's no way to tell if anything is ever related to anything. Unless you can explain why that is the case. There's simply no way to explain why should Fi or Fe should logically lead to understanding or not understanding sarcasm, because it doesn't have anything to do with sarcasm per se. There's no such logical premise for why that should be the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I know an SEE who eats turkey sandwiches a lot. Is it related?

    I know an SEE who uses sarcasm a lot. Is it related?

    It's the same thing. It's correlation and not causation. There's no way to tell if anything is ever related to anything. Unless you can explain why that is the case. There's simply no way to explain why should Fi or Fe should logically lead to understanding or not understanding sarcasm, because it doesn't have anything to do with sarcasm per se. There's no such logical premise for why that should be the case.
    Despite all these clues, detecting sarcasm can be difficult. There are a lot of things that can cause our sarcasm detectors to break down, scientists are finding. Conditions including autism, closed head injuries, brain lesions and schizophrenia can interfere with the ability to perceive sarcasm.

    Researchers at the University of California at San Francisco, for example, recently found that people with frontotemporal dementia have difficulty detecting sarcasm. Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin has suggested that a loss of the ability to pick up on sarcasm could be used as an early warning sign to help diagnose the disease. “If someone who has the sensitivity loses it, that’s a bad sign,” Rankin says. “If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that’s when I would worry.”

    Many parts of the brain are involved in processing sarcasm, according to recent brain imaging studies. Rankin has found that the temporal lobes and the parahippocampus are involved in picking up the sarcastic tone of voice. While the left hemisphere of the brain seems to be responsible for interpreting literal statements, the right hemisphere and both frontal lobes seem to be involved in figuring out when the literal statement is intended to mean exactly the opposite, according to a study by researchers at the University of Haifa.

    At least some people find it worth researching.

    My first thought when I read OP was autism too (like you mentioned) but then I thought that was too obvious and not everyone who has trouble with it is autistic.

    I picked up on your sarcasm there btw.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    I could identify with that a lot when I was younger, taking things people told me more literally and at face value, but I've gotten pretty good at detecting sarcasm and reading between the lines in my old age. On the flip I find that I've always been really good at detecting things like subtle satire in fictional works when it would often fly over the heads of others around me. Like for instance my SEI mother didn't like me watching Beavis and Butthead because she thought it would influence me badly but I knew right away it was obviously satirical in nature. She genuinely seemed to think that it was glorifying a dumbing down of teenagers and promoting things like playing with fire and frog baseball (in fact, it seemed a lot of people in the media took that show way too literally at the time).

    So I don't know, maybe it partly depends on context and is a case-by-case thing regarding how and when LIIs are good at reading between the lines. It might also come with better usage of Ne, whereas one relying heavily on Si but neglecting Ne might be poorer at recognizing sarcasm and anything else that isn't always overtly presented. Not to make this all about me, but it wasn't really until I started socializing more and immersing myself in activities more outside of my comfort zone and that didn't involve me being a reclusive homebody that I really began to excel at reading sarcasm and other subtleties. So assuming this LII you speak of is correctly typed, I would be curious to know things like her age, how often she spends time with other people, etc.
    Last edited by perpetuus; 03-08-2019 at 04:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    At least some people find it worth researching.

    My first thought when I read OP was autism too (like you mentioned) but then I thought that was too obvious and not everyone who has trouble with it is autistic.
    I would think that it has to do with: either it's innate, or it's (un)learned.

    "It's innate" is a bit too obvious, and it doesn't really explain anything. It's also apparently the same approach as Socionics. A type is apparently innate, and that's that.

    Obviously, people will have to learn sarcasm. Young children may not understand sarcasm. You go to another country, and you speak in sarcasm and they don't know what the hell you're talking about, or they'll take you literally. So what should you conclude? Wow! They must be some "type" that is unable to understand sarcasm!

    Well, no.

    There are also two different modes of explanations: one is neurological, and the other is psychological or sociological. Neurological explanation is saying this or that region of the brain might be related to detecting sarcasm or something like that. But how would it work psychologically? People will have to either consciously or unconsciously think about sarcasm in order to understand sarcasm. And so what would the thinking process for that look like? And what's "thinking", anyway? Is it just about literally having a "thought" in your native language? Or is it something else entirely that will have to be explained in different ways?

    How do people begin to understand sarcasm? What does that process look like? How does one know that one is joking, and so on? What even is a joke? Why should anyone say what they don't really mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I would think that it has to do with: either it's innate, or it's (un)learned.

    "It's innate" is a bit too obvious, and it doesn't really explain anything. It's also apparently the same approach as Socionics. A type is apparently innate, and that's that.

    Obviously, people will have to learn sarcasm. Young children may not understand sarcasm. You go to another country, and you speak in sarcasm and they don't know what the hell you're talking about, or they'll take you literally. So what should you conclude? Wow! They must be some "type" that is unable to understand sarcasm!

    Well, no.

    There are also two different modes of explanations: one is neurological, and the other is psychological or sociological. Neurological explanation is saying this or that region of the brain might be related to detecting sarcasm or something like that. But how would it work psychologically? People will have to either consciously or unconsciously think about sarcasm in order to understand sarcasm. And so what would the thinking process for that look like? And what's "thinking", anyway? Is it just about literally having a "thought" in your native language? Or is it something else entirely that will have to be explained in different ways?

    How do people begin to understand sarcasm? What does that process look like? How does one know that one is joking, and so on?
    I can't answer all your questions but the article might answer some. I do not usually have any problem picking up sarcasm/irony. I might not always like it but I pick it up irl. I have taken some things said to me too personal at times, online. I got upset when someone I talked to a lot told me that E4s were autistic (they type me a 4) and when I asked if I seemed autistic they didn't respond. All of a sudden I was thinking about what could possibly make me seem autistic since I have been in group voice chats with them. I was thinking about it for a whole day and off and on for a couple more days. It turned out they were teasing. They didn't bother to fill in me even after I asked a couple times. They just happened to tease me on a day I was not up for teasing so I took it to heart.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  24. #24

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    Well I think I can explain sarcasm.

    First, you'd need a socially accepted premise, such as:

    1. It's funny to say the opposite of what you really mean

    This is what is socially accepted as a "joke". People will understand you perfectly well if you say outlandish things on purpose, because they know that you really mean the opposite.

    So if I say:

    "Boy, I sure love killing people. It's just the serial-killer in me, mm, mmm"

    People will find this funny, because they know that I really mean the opposite. They might even be relieved, because they will implicitly understand that I am not a serial killer nor do I enjoy killing people. They will also implicitly understand that I know that killing people is wrong, and that is my moral stance.

    So people with autism and things like that have a hard time understanding that, because they don't really take or understand things from the others' POV. They don't know what the others are thinking from their point of view. So they would not understand such socially accepted "premise".

    Of course, this depends on culture to culture. Some cultures may not find saying the opposite of what you really mean to be funny (e.g. sarcasm), and they'll end up taking you literally. So if you say that you love killing people, then they'll just think that you're insane.

    So I don't think that there's a "sarcasm detector" in the brain or something like that. But rather, there's a part of the brain that makes one understand things from others' POV, and from the social position.

    And so sarcasm is just something that is learned socially, in my opinion. And some people may not have the ability to learn social things.

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