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Thread: On Good and Evil

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    Default On Good and Evil

    What is good? What is evil? Can people be pure evil - or pure good for that matter? What started this thread is the notion I read that evil is 'just a social construct' - i.e., there are usually reasons why people behave cruelly, selfishly, and callously. Evil then is just a fairy tale, something just made up to justify why people behave in such a way.

    I think this notion is patently false. Why? Because good and evil are probably distributed in something like a Bell Curve. Most people are neither purely selfless or cruel - most people have done some things right and some things wrong in their life, and they therefore lie in the middle of the curve; even if these traits are not distributed like an exact Bell Curve, the same principle probably holds true: most people are not completely good or evil. One may now notice that this actually works against my thesis - i.e., how does good and evil then exist? Clearly, just like for IQ, height, etc., there are people who lie way to the right or the left of the curve. These are then the people who are 'pure good' or 'pure evil.' This makes the notion that evil (and also good) are just constructs into nonsense.

    I also realized something from this on a personal level: if I mind evil so much, how am I not actually 'Fi?' Because just like most people, I have done some things right and some things wrong. The people I then argue and fight with are at the absolute bottom of the barrel: it is not because I am so good, but because they are so bad. But if I'm not 'so good' why do I deserve to be treated like I'm 'a saint?' Because most people have done something wrong as well and don't deserve to be treated this way either! Most people probably couldn't even stand the people I fight and argue with - and it's not because most people are some kind of saint!

    The End.

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    I agree with your premise for the most part as that is how I see good and evil as well. Pure good and pure evil mostly exist in theory as concepts. So they do exist, but only in a theoretical form. In practice, very few if any people can define themselves as pure good or pure evil. Almost everyone has done or continued to do bad and good things. However, that does not mean all people are equal or even close. I prefer to think of it as a spectrum.

    Think of a stereotypical good person as being light grey where they are mostly good with some evil, a stereotypical evil person as being dark grey where they are mostly evil with some good and your average joe as being merely grey where they are roughly an even mixture of good and evil with shades in between all of them. A pure good (white) or pure evil (black) person is incredibly rare and probably do exist, but they are likely an extremely tiny minority if they do exist anyways.
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    If at the basest level, most people possess the hard wired biological imperative to spawn and thrive (or at the very least, survive), then at the macro level, I'd say "good" should be more aptly described as whatever is "life affirming/promoting," with the collective in mind, and "bad," whatever prohibits and contradicts that. Wanton murder = "bad." Killing someone who is attempting to murder you = "good." Depletion of the Ozone layer = "bad." Ridding the world of entities that destroy the environment = "good."

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    Good and evil are words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Good and evil are words.
    Assume morality falls under something like a 'Bell Curve.' Then there are still people to the right and the left of the centre of the curve - sometimes way to the right or left... Then how does that not exemplify 'good and evil' the same way such a curve would for 'height' or 'intelligence?' That is the point I was trying to make...
    Last edited by jason_m; 06-04-2019 at 09:17 PM.

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    I prefer Architecture and Morality.

    There is no such thing as "Good and Evil": that would require absolute objectivity, which is impossible, and require morality to be objective, which is an oxymoron.

    The best a person can do is to follow their own conscience, and not blindly follow what others tell them. I don't think a person with full agency is capable of acting contrary to their conscience.

    Humans are probably unique amongst animals on this planet in that the majority of them are capable of remorse for past actions: I think Darwin made that point regarding the concept of morality - that is essentially indicative of what we mean by morality.

    ah: “A moral being is one who is capable of reflecting on his past actions and their motives-of approving of some and disapproving of others; and the fact that man is the one being who certainly deserves this designation, is the greatest of all distinctions between him and the lower animals. But in the forth chapter I have endeavoured to show that the moral sense follows, first, from the enduring and ever-present nature of the social instincts; secondly, from man's appreciation of the approbation and disapprobation of his fellows; and thirdly, from the activity of his mental faculties, with past impressions extremely vivid; and in these latter respects he differs from the lower animals. Owing to his condition of mind, man cannot avoid looking both backward and forward, and comparing past impressions. Hence after some temporary desire or passion has mastered his social instincts, he reflects and compares the now weakened impression of such past impulse with the ever-present social instincts, and he then feels that sense of dissatisfaction which all unsatisfied instincts leave behind them; he therefore resolves to act differently for the future-and this is a conscience. Any instinct permanently stronger or more enduring than another gives rise to a feeling which we express by saying that it ought to be obeyed. A pointer dog, if able to reflect on his past conduct, would say to himself, I ought (as indeed we say of him) to have pointed at that hare and not have yielded to the passing temptation of hunting.”
    ― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

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    good = pleasure
    evil = pain

    on the highest personal level - what is such for your soul/heart/higher-self
    on the lowest - for primitive instincts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    good = pleasure
    evil = pain

    on the highest personal level - what is such for your soul/heart/higher-self
    on the lowest - for primitive instincts
    nope if that was the case then why do people put themselves willingly through painful situations for a higher cause? If you only know the training outline for monks in china, but they see this as good. People values is what determines what is good or evil. Stealing may be good if its giving to the poor and praying may be evil if its to a foreign god.This is why it varies from time to time. However in the end there is no good or evil just perspectives. If you was a being with unlimited power and can do whatever you want with out judgement, however you have no knowledge of what was good or evil before hand then what is wrong or right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anderson21 View Post
    nope if that was the case then why do people put themselves willingly through painful situations for a higher cause?
    I've mentioned about levels. what is pleasure on higher level mb a pain on lower

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    I've mentioned about levels. what is pleasure on higher level mb a pain on lower
    still doesnt answer my question

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anderson21 View Post
    still doesnt answer my question
    I think he means pleasure as self-realization, being a martyr for a cause you believe in deeply would be painful but self-realizing, therefore bring more pleasure or good in the end because it aligns with the self, while being untrue to yourself could bring instantenous, wordly pleasure but feel empty down the line, so more pain than pleasure. Or at least, it's what I got from what he wrote.

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    Morality and Good and evil are just like a path that you take on a forked road. It simply has to do with choosing between Choice A and Choice B.

    So the question is, why is Choice A (good) better than Choice B (evil)? Well we don't really know why, other than that we're constantly seeking explanations on why choosing A is better than B.

    All we're saying is that taking a good action is objectively better than taking an evil action. And that requires an explanation as to why that is the case.

    I think morality is what makes an action possible for a sentient being that has the ability to make a choice. A sentient being that is seeking better actions, and hence more knowledge and better explanations.

    You can say that some people are purely good, some people are purely evil, and most people fall somewhere in between. But what good is having that kind of statistical approach? It doesn't actually say anything about morality. It just says that there are certain kinds of people in this world. It can't explain anything.

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    Intellectually, its tempting for me to say well yeah, good/evil are just words and everything is nuance shades of grey blah blah blah.

    But good and evil are felt, not known. It's obviously 'good' to save an innocent old lady from a burning building, and obviously 'evil' to laugh at her as she dies and then smother her dead ashes on your body whilst you tweak your nipples and sing the lyrics to Goodbye Horses. (And even eviler to make her think you are there to save her, and then do the latter!) The 'in the middle/everybody is a little bit of both' comes down to the fact that it feels like most people would be incredibly indifferent to an old, helpless lady dying in a fire unless it was their own mother/grandmother or close family member. So they might feel a little bad for her from a safe distance, but they wouldn't actually do anything about it or care very much.

    That was just one example. It's easy to think of thousands more.

    The temptation of being evil is that in the moment it feels incredibly good and exhilarating. Like you are born free, like that Dexter episode. This isn't just reserved for creepy serial killers tho, I strongly believe its an objective trait that everybody feels. Also what Cersei said to Septa Unella was pretty spot on as well. She didn't do those cruel things because she was worried about Cersei's salvation, she did them because it felt good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Good and evil are words.
    Words denote concepts.


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    Idk. I’ve always idealistically believed in the gray, or even in the grand scale of things, that there is no such thing as good and evil. But then again I’ve been sheltered my whole life.

    But I could see myself becoming unsheltered, starting to believe in evil, and wanting to rid the world of it....

    People I’ve come acrossed, most of them seem to have good intentions, but I’ve heard of gangs, mafias, and what some have done to people. I think if I were to witness that, it might screw me up a bit and change my perspective. But I’m in my safe little pocket of the world, it’s hard for me to conceptualize fully without being touched by it. And I hope to God I never am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Intellectually, its tempting for me to say well yeah, good/evil are just words and everything is nuance shades of grey blah blah blah.

    But good and evil are felt, not known. It's obviously 'good' to save an innocent old lady from a burning building, and obviously 'evil' to laugh at her as she dies and then smother her dead ashes on your body whilst you tweak your nipples and sing the lyrics to Goodbye Horses. (And even eviler to make her think you are there to save her, and then do the latter!) The 'in the middle/everybody is a little bit of both' comes down to the fact that it feels like most people would be incredibly indifferent to an old, helpless lady dying in a fire unless it was their own mother/grandmother or close family member. So they might feel a little bad for her from a safe distance, but they wouldn't actually do anything about it or care very much.

    That was just one example. It's easy to think of thousands more.

    The temptation of being evil is that in the moment it feels incredibly good and exhilarating. Like you are born free, like that Dexter episode. This isn't just reserved for creepy serial killers tho, I strongly believe its an objective trait that everybody feels. Also what Cersei said to Septa Unella was pretty spot on as well. She didn't do those cruel things because she was worried about Cersei's salvation, she did them because it felt good.
    Feeling doesn't justify anything, even if it is powerful. There are people who genuinely feel rather strongly that gay men are evil and should be expunged from the universe. That doesn't mean they are justified.

    Morality is a wonderful excuse.

    The leaders of the world are clever. They point out the wrongs of others to hide their own.

    People with strong empathy are disinclined to do things to others that cause them pain. People with weak empathy are more willing to cause pain to others and seek their own pleasure. People with extraordinary empathy will pain themselves to prevent others from feeling pain. Not everyone who appears empathetic is. Some of the most feeling people can be some of the most callous. The most selfless people feel the pain of the aggressors as well as the aggressed.

    Morality is, mostly, a social game. People argue over who is right and who is wrong as a way of jostling each other for social status..

    Morality is also just brainwashing. The dutiful slave classes think hard work is good and builds character, and that those who do not work hard are evil. They believe this because they have been trained to believe it. They believe that anyone who does not work is just making excuses. Thus the wealthy do not have to provide for the weak and helpless. These statements are more true in America than some places.

    Socionics quadra and type affects moral belief, but isn't all there is to it.
    Last edited by Aramas; 06-05-2019 at 06:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Assume morality falls under something like a 'Bell Curve.' Then there are still people to the right and the left of the centre of the curve - sometimes way to the right or left... Then how does that not exemplify 'good and evil' the same way such a curve would for 'height' or 'intelligence?' That is the point I was trying to make...
    No thanks. Bell curves are one dimensional and based on a binary. I think morality is a lot more complex than that.

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