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Last edited by cookie123; 02-14-2021 at 06:35 PM.
This is actually a good question (at least more reasonable, than a lot of the questions around here). Seeing how old it is, though, you may have found your answer by now, I wager.
I had a 3w4 sx/sp ESTP colleague so I can relate some differences. Most 3w4s are tertiary so/sp 3w4. These people may enter business and wear all things chic and elegant. Even if it's not "economics," they'd still be heavy on giving the "professional" facade. Tertiary social 4w3s, similarly, would be heavy on looking like this... David Bowie thing. Whereas they're actually masculine inside, they just try to tone it down with more of a affectation - think of George Michael (not as dramatic as Bowie but still).
Compared to corefix 4w5, corefix 4w3 is a 4 that tries to be more boyish, more adventurous, more adaptive to group expectations, doesn't allow the drama to show in the beginning. Whereas corefix 4w5 may be more shameful and hesitant to even try to enter the extroverts' (physical) activities. With tertiary social 4w5s one sees this snobbishness, vanity on the surface, they're alternative cultural "indie" people, yet what is underneath this facade is aggression and entitlement - they try to sublimate those into art to justify them. Corefix 4w5s are more self-surrendering and they do actually go through self-torture and self-surrender, which they'd don't show. Corefix 4w3s also cry silently but their drama is more mushy, lighter. They're not necessarily aware of the 4 quality inside of them, they conform, play the social game until they backstabbed, offended or expected to cross some personal values etc., that's when the princely qualities come out. So that w3 in the corefix 4w3 makes them forego their effeminate nature to be more adventurous, boyish, within limits, ofc. I, as a core-fix so/sp 4w3, when I'm alone and don't have prospects, feel at times that I deserve stuff, in that sense I have this effeminate, fragile, passive prince in me who doesn't fight for things, who thinks they deserved to be born int a better life, have better parents, better abilities, etc. But that's just the main part of me that gets repressed by other parts.
3w4s, when tertiary are, again, normal. There are so common, perhaps you wouldn't even recognize them, esp. if you're from a culture (big city) that values professionalism and glitz. When it becomes a core-fixation or a stronger preoccupation, such as with Sp/Sx 3 ISTJs, then it's a personal thing. Social 3s like to be in a successful group, have a successful and valued role but it's more diluted - their image can come from the success of the group. But the E3 descriptions usually refer to a core-fixation, someone who's primary preoccupation is to be seen as successful. Both socials and non-socials are about how they are perceived by others but non-socials put more emphasis on their individual struggle, their individual "rags to riches" climbing up. It's not enough to bask in the success in a certain elite group, it has to be their own success. But they know well and ashamed of them not being good enough, not having the abilities, etc., so they'll cheat, cut corners, just to make it look like they got there on their own. With the tertiary 3w4s it's more about personal dignity, about being "good enough," despite their gut sphere drives, to which their awesome group can contribute to. But core-fix 3w4 is himself awesome, energetic, wonderkid, etc. Citizen Kane, Great Gatsby, Gattaca's protagonist and my ESTP ex-colleague, etc. They, as well as corefix 4w3s, repress their emotions and contort themselves to chameleon others' abilities and mold to expectations. What ever competence is needed, they can do it. Corefix 4w3s are more limited in this respect, they wouldn't try just about anything. But core-fix 3w4 sells their inner child to the devil and is hollow inside for longer time. I break down quicker and cry for killing my inner child but I am also hollow a lot of the time. I also abstain from rewards and allowing myself to slack when doing a commission, something that gets exposed to people's judgment of performance. Even if they don't judge, I still feel that I have to give the best, like right now, writing shitloads of text, even if no one really cares. Maybe some random dude, browsing old posts will value it.
So I've noticed lately that two 3w4 videos are up on YT that give good self-examinations. What's important in noticing these people is the speed they talk and the amount of references they make. 3w4s have this also in their work: fast and efficient. Although, "efficiency" is misleading because it often times gives only stopgap solutions, not real work.
Last edited by Neokortex; 02-11-2019 at 10:35 AM.
Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!
Oh, and Patrick Swayze was an Sx/So 3, in my typing. The Benedict Cumberbatch rendition of Dr. Strange gives the same vibes.
Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!
I'm a 4w3 and my boyfriend is a 3w4. I have to admit that at first, I thought he was a 4 as well, but that was just a very shallow observation. We both have similar background and we've overcome similar things in life. Just like me, he experienced what it is like to be the outsider, he was very emotional and sensitive as a child and he was often the one other kids picked up on. He was the artistic, touchy-feely, clumsy child stereotype. When we talk about these experiences, we find that we have many things in common, but we're actually very different.
As a 3w4 he loves attention, he's a natural comedian who lights up every group he comes into. He loves telling jokes and he can grab the attention of everyone with his charisma and expressive manner of speech. People love him, he can get close to anyone in no time. He can't sit quietly for very long, he needs to talk all the time, and he can have a conversation with basically anyone.
I as a 4w3 am far more introverted and shy. I'd feel so self conscious and anxious if I attracted that much attention on myself. I do like attention, and I have to admit I often envy how my boyfriend can be so self confident in front of others, but I couldn't do it. I'm also much darker when it comes to my sense of humor and I don't care about sharing positive feelings with others as much as he does.
We're both artists, but the ways by which we approach the creative process are fundamentally different. Art is something very personal for me, it's melancholic, it's driven by my subjective emotional state and I often use it as medium to express my inner feelings and thoughts. His art is far less personal, he likes to play with ideas and symbols far more than he likes to play with emotions. It's not so much about self expression for him, it's more about the creative process itself.
As a 3, he's very focused on productivity and achievement. He can force himself to work, even when he doesn't feel inspired, or even when his mood is very low. He's extremely driven, ambitious and always strives to be the best at everything he does. He's a book-like workaholic, he can spend the whole day working without needing a break at all. I as a 4w3 I am extremely ambitious as well, but I don't have the will power to push myself as hard as he does. I'd love to be as productive and disciplined as he is, but I'm a slave to my moods and feelings. When I'm not in a mood to work, I simply can't force myself to do anything, even though I feel very guilty about it.
He's extremely competitive and I'm very envious. It's similar when you think about it, but it manifests very differently. When he sees that someone is better than him, he can't handle it. He immediately starts to push himself to become better, he's very assertive and always tries to be the best of the best. He once told me that he can't imagine being average, 'cause that's for lazy losers. When I see that somebody is better than myself, I feel envious about their talents or skills, I crawl up under my blanket, get depressed and pity myself for being weak a useless.
He needs tons of positive feedback and affirmation from others, far more than I do. He loves to tell me about his success, because he needs me to tell him that I'm proud of him. He needs to hear that he's good, successful, accomplished etc. in order to be balanced. I need it as well, but I'm less direct about it. I do something and wait for others to notice it. I don't come to them and ask for their approval. But he's like a needy child who jumps around the room until you tell them that they've done a good job.
I like to talk about my emotions, I like to share mainly my negative emotions, when I feel sad, depressed etc I like to talk it out. He usually only shares the positive emotions unless I really push his buttons and force him to share some of his more negative feelings. He experiences them just as well, but is less likely to express them than I am.
He can also get depressed and very emotional quite easily, but he deals with these feelings with work and some kind of productive tasks, while I tend to drown myself in my sorrows. Also he's more likely to express his feelings that I'm. For example he cries easier in front of me, than I do in front of him. I tend to hide and feel ashamed of some of my feelings, while he just gets it all out. On the other hand, he can get over them much easily than I can.
To distinguish look at the core type fears and motivations but the basics of the core types are different enough I think. I am pretty much enneagramed out right now other than using it for myself. Read all the different books by the most well known and respected authors for deeper understanding. If you are using various systems then it might be harder since you have to factor in the socionics, mbti, instincts, etc... The more effort you put into understanding it all and how it comes together the more you will get out of it. Talking to someone one on one and asking questions is a good start. Find a 3w4 and a 4w3 whose self typing you are confident in and talk to them.
The Achiever (the Three)
Achivers are energetic, optimistic, self-assured, and goal oriented.
How to Get Along with Me
Leave me alone when I am doing my work.
Give me honest, but not unduly critical or judgmental, feedback.
Help me keep my environment harmonious and peaceful.
Don't burden me with negative emotions.
Tell me you like being around me.
Tell me when you're proud of me or my accomplishments.
What I Like About Being a Three
being optimistic, friendly, and upbeat
providing well for my family
being able to recover quickly from setbacks and to charge ahead to the next challenge
staying informed, knowing what's going on
being competent and able to get things to work efficiently
being able to motivate people
What's Hard About Being a Three
having to put up with inefficiency and incompetence
the fear on not being -- or of not being seen as -- successful
comparing myself to people who do things better
struggling to hang on to my success
putting on facades in order to impress people
always being "on." It's exhausting.
Threes as Children Often
work hard to receive appreciation for their accomplishments
are well liked by other children and by adults
are among the most capable and responsible children in their class or school
are active in school government and clubs or are quietly busy working on their own projects
Threes as Parents
are consistent, dependable, and loyal
struggle between wanting to spend time with their children and wanting to get more work done
expect their children to be responsible and organized
Renee Baron & Elizabeth Wagele
The Romantic (the Four)
Romantics have sensitive feelings and are warm and perceptive.
How to Get Along with Me
Give me plenty of compliments. They mean a lot to me.
Be a supportive friend or partner. Help me to learn to love and value myself.
Respect me for my special gifts of intuition and vision.
Though I don't always want to be cheered up when I'm feeling melancholy, I sometimes like to have someone lighten me up a little.
Don't tell me I'm too sensitive or that I'm overreacting!
What I Like About Being a Four
my ability to find meaning in life and to experience feeling at a deep level
my ability to establish warm connections with people
admiring what is noble, truthful, and beautiful in life
my creativity, intuition, and sense of humor
being unique and being seen as unique by others
having aesthetic sensibilities
being able to easily pick up the feelings of people around me
What's Hard About Being a Four
experiencing dark moods of emptiness and despair
feelings of self-hatred and shame; believing I don't deserve to be loved
feeling guilty when I disappoint people
feeling hurt or attacked when someone misunderstands me
expecting too much from myself and life
fearing being abandoned
obsessing over resentments
longing for what I don't have
Fours as Children Often
have active imaginations: play creatively alone or organize playmates in original game s
are very sensitive
feel that they don't fit in
believe they are missing something that other people have
attach themselves to idealized teachers, heroes, artists, etc.
become anti-authoritarian or rebellious when criticized or not understood
feel lonely or abandoned (perhaps as a result of a death or their parents' divorce)
Fours as Parents
help their children become who they really are
support their children's creativity and originality
are good at helping their children get in touch with their feelings
are sometimes overly critical or overly protective
are usually very good with children if not too self-absorbed
Renee Baron & Elizabeth WageleNaranjo - Ennea-Type Structures
Success through Appearances (Ennea-Type III)
Vanity, Inauthenticity and the "Marketing Orientation"
Trait Structure
Attention Need and Vanity
Achieving Orientation
Social Sophistication and Skill
Cultivation of Sexual Attractiveness
Deceit and Image Manipulation
Other-Directedness
Pragmatism
Active Vigilance
Superficialityhttps://www.9types.com/Naranjo - Ennea-Type Structures
Seeking Happiness through Pain (Ennea-Type IV)
Envy and the Masochistic Personality
Trait Structure
Envy
Poor Self-Image
Focus on Suffering
"Moving Toward"
Nurturance
Emotionality
Competitive Arrogance
Refinement
Artistic Interests
Strong Superego
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
@Freya sounds like you guys are fit for marriage. DDD Do you have or plan to have children too?
Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!
Succinctly, whereas both value public acclaim and uniqueness, they will value one or the other more. 3w4's primary goal is success and praise, and will work within the system to get that. 4w3 primarily views himself as unique or as an outsider, and while he will want success and praise as well, he won't seek to be a part of the system that he sees as rejecting him. As well, 3w4 is more likely to come off as confidant or vain, while 4w3 will have a hard time concealing emotions and inner pain.
big difference. 4w3s will look very shameful, 3w4s central problem isnt visceral shame and needless self-consciousness. 3w4s look like 3s... usually with an artistic flair. sometimes they look more "concretely artistic" than 4s. more flashy. prince and michael jackson are flashy but thats because they got a 7 fix.
3w4: ariana grande (sx/so 397), selena gomez (sp/so idktritype), marina diamandis (so/sx 379 maybe), adam ant
4w3: prince (sx/sp 478), lana del rey (so/sx 496) , michael jackson (so/sx 497) , anna wintour (sp/so 458)
@Neokortex I'm fairly sure of being a 4w3. If you're doubtful, I made a video about enneagram 4w3 few years ago as well as the one about 4s in general. You can watch them and see for yourself, it also explains why I relate to 4 and mainly 4w3.
I've watched your 4w3 description again. Very good job! It has, actually, made me cringe, damn. There were some very well presented and accurate parts that sharply capture the type's essence.
Q#1: Do you have the stuttering in the original? If not, then might wanna render it with a different codec and upload that instead.
Q#2: Do you still have the photos you have posted on this forum? You're somewhere in an East/Central European pub, dressed all black with red tinted glasses? I'm curious to see that fashion design again.
Criticism:
Segment: 4:03-4:16
[Transcript]:
Yes and no. I did study photography and film but I've always had problems fitting in that milieu because of my E6. I imagine some would even get sick of all that E3 glamour and fakeness after a while. On the other hand, tertiary 4w3s may revel in it (because of feeling they deserve it).3s usually feel, like, at home in showbiz and this also true for the enneagram type 4w3. A lot of famous artists and celebrities are 4s with 3.
I asked for your photos because of your use of black and being more focused in your video does suggest that you have an E5, instead of the 7. 7s are more scatterbrained in general, more upbeat. You seem to have a better hold of your Ne than I do and you don't seem to get the speedboost of the 3. Hence, I think 4w3 is not your core-fix. Perhaps you use 4w3 strategies to compensate for/overcome E9 "flaws?"
Last edited by Neokortex; 02-21-2019 at 10:22 AM.
Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!