My approach, to be clear, isn't to figure out if socionics is "real" or not; it has certain rings of truth to it, and my approach is to conceptualize what it IS saying, rather than argue over if it is "real"
I don't tend to indulge things like "does God exist" or "is it real" or whatever, as I find it's more useful to try to formulate what it is one is looking for -- what it does and doesn't say, rather than try to make absolute statements or reality, existence, and what have you.
I ban my self so that I don't waste time here. The craziness is part of the fun... It has died down lately because of over moderation ( which, incidentally also kills lively discussion.)Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I dont know strange, its hard for me to describe ENTj "salesman" entrepreneurs using the adjectives you used. So that l leads me to wonder why you are treating people that way?
Wait a minute. I didn't say I was treating people that way. I said that's how others whom I have talked to perceive the ENTj's discussion style. I'm basing this off discussions with people who work for two other ENTj CEO's whom I know. Personally, I'm an angel.
Actually, people have told me I'm a bull in a china shop, that I'm a loose cannon, that I'm the 82nd Airborne (drop in, fix the problem, jump out), am hard to ignore, that I will say anything to anyone, etc., etc. I don't think anyone I know believes I'm mistreating them, or that I'm purposefully being hurtful. I think that is the worst thing a person could possibly do, so I try my best to never intentionally hurt people, and if I see that I have, I apologize immediately and try to fix it.
I'm a pretty good salesman and entrepreneur, too, but that is so easy, I didn't think to mention it.
I would describe myself as a person who looks for opportunities, talks to other people about what they want and can do, organizes some fun, and makes decisions to ensure that everyone gets paid. But I doubt that that's how others see me. I've noticed that type descriptions vary in what I would call their accuracy (which is really a measure of agreement, at this stage of the science), and depend on how psychologically "close" the person doing the describing is to the person being described. So, rather than give an ENTj description, comprehensible to 2% of the people reading this, I just reported on what a wide variety of types think of ENTj's.
I know you didnt say it, you dont have to. If people are telling you you are those things then that probably means you are being those things. Relationships are a mirror for the self.
Yet I believe you, so it makes me wonder if maybe you have no idea what people really really think of you, because it is probably not even half as bad as you made it out to seem. You dont need to be seen as a badass around here, just be yourself, which better comes through in posts like the one I am quoting here and not the previous one where you portray yourself through the precieved descriptions of others towards you.
I guess my point here is that I think there are lots of things related to Jung's ideas on types that seem to more or less fit more naturally into a Te+sensation manner of study, so it's important to pick out what socionics really has the potential to describe. A simple example here is a lot of his predicted tendencies on cognitive types are tapping into much broader aspects of personality (that aren't so cognitive in nature!), and there's some truth that simply measuring those areas accurately helps contribute to a much more realistic understanding than trying to explain *everything* using the information elements, as a lot of socionics portraits seem to try to do.
I think there's a lot of potential for intuitives and/or Ti types to appreciate the specifically Jungian side though and extend it, but they do need to pick their battles.
There's a difference between emphasizing your perspective/being bored with the other vs truly trying to construe the other as unnecessary period.
Jesus, this is extremePeople call me a workaholic, but I take care of my physical resources way too much to accept the title, and here's the confirmation of it. Ain't I creating this sort of situations for myself, let alone thinking it's normal when it happens. Probably why I'm seen as so "unique" (they're nice way of saying weird) here in Korea. They think daily nosebleeds and headaches due to excessive work hours, fainting is nothing.
My EIE friend HATES old people would be terrible in a care taking role (like a CNA)
I used to have fainting spells... I also tend to skip going to the doctor's, dentist's, anywhere that involves my health. Not saying I'm Si PoLR but I do relate to most of the descriptions for it.
I can relate how it manifests for me: I tend to forget that I have a physical body. Unless I am in a very healthy state of mind, I tend to disregard it completely. It also seems like I'm never in the present; my mind is always occupied with some thought, and I cannot turn it off. My perception of time is very subjetive. I'm also not suggestive to anything that would provide for a positive physical experience (in the hedonistic sense), it is like not important for me at all, the only exception to this is good food I guess. I do care about basic bodily necessities, or rather, I want to get rid of the sensation that my body needs something, as soon as possible. I am very spartan in my daily living, going by with just the minimum required to live. I am very aware of anything that could be going wrong in my physical body (I notice early signs very efficiently), but at the same time I can ignore it completely until a serious injury occurs. I have a good deal of broken bones and injuries due to reckless or dismissive behavior. I can endure high amounts of physical pain. Anything toxic or unnatural is like deadly poison to me, same as sugars and oily subtances (though to a lesser degree). I cannot match colors correctly or come up with a good outfit combination unless I go though a lenghty process of trial and error, or I am tipped off. However, this is self-referential only; I can accurately assess the aesthetics of some other person.
Shouting part ain't true 'cuz I don't take that shit, but the bolded it's a 100% fit.
The perfect description of my turbulent on-and-off relationship with Socionics.
"STOP THINKING AND JUST FEEL THE MOMENT, GEEZ!!!"Yep.
For me is: "Does it hold up to factual experience? Is it consistently observable and functional in real life?"
Thanks for this thread, had I find it and read it from the OP before a lot (if not all) of my questions would have been answered.
Accurate. I should get checked for scurvy. Nah.
What's this? I don't have time for those vitamin d pills you prescribed me doc.
FRIED CHICKEN.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
I was recently in the hospital for surgery for a month. I saw dozens of nurses. I can tell the difference between what I thought was 'Si-PoLR' and what was not.
The Si-PoLR nurses were very caring, but had problems:
- using syringes
- changing bandages
- working with equipment
- taking blood
Really, doing anything physical or mechanical. They seemed almost 'awkward' doing that stuff. The nurse who I thought was IEE had the same problem, but she had a different personality. It didn't really bother me, but I concluded the most likely reason was that the nurses who were having problems were weak in that function...
(There were also some nurses who I thought were FiSe: we always tried to warm up to each other, but I was too passive and them sometimes too strong; they seemed to need someone who needs a 'push' emotionally; while I was carefully calculating how I would recover - e.g., walk from place 'A' to 'B', they wanted me to really push myself and and walk for something like 50 metres; I was calculating every step, but they needed someone who needs a hard 'push' to get going... (This is not relevant to the thread, but I thought I would add it in for clarity about some of the functions...))
When I hang out with my ISTp friend with groups, he’d be the one friend that would want to go home if it got too late, complaining how tired and drained we’d all be from a lack of sleep
Now someone that’s Si-PoLR would probably be the exact opposite; maybe they’d push staying up late for the groups sake, sacrificing their well-being in the process
Si is kind of like, let's say Christmas is coming around, and somebody has all these ideas about what Christmas should be and how important it is to have that. They might value a certain idea of family about Christmas and a certain image of what it is or something like that. It's a subjective internalized element regarding the sensation of activities and things. Something important and special to them. It can be as simple as somebody liking certain colors on a wall or something like an idealized appreciation of a certain aesthetic or something like that. It's subjective essentially.
Si-polr and Si roles don't give a shit about all that...basically. They don't put much value on aesthetics or valuing a personal image about things, I guess you could say. I think the popular notion of Si being about comfort might be indirectly more true than the other functions, but it's not "really" Si. Nothing about Si has to be inherently comfortable or mean somebody likes good food or something.How did that become a thing anyway?
Androgynous Robot Dreamer - Not really human, but good at pretending.
Simplest way: its like the second creative function. Only more narrow and weaker and neurotic.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
At least in LIE descriptions it is mentioned that LIE's can be good technicians. Sounds like some sort of precision work to me.
I think PoLR is more like: Dammit, brick wall we meet again! Let's see what to do in here. Based on this this happens, so... MOMMA!
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Maybe you're just a slob.
Yeah they do. But will usually qualify those images with more intangibly abstract descriptors—i.e., the 'meaning', 'spirit', or 'essence' of the thing. Default inner perception is conceptual > sensorial, such that Si Role/PoLR denotes tremendous difficulty in pivoting away from this frame of mind.
Watch how they talk. It's nearly impossible for them to actively describe much of anything in experientially concrete terms for long, without resorting to mental constructs or metaphors about it.
lmao
Some of these are ligit problems I'm sure everyone has come across...
Seeing a lot of logics of actions combined with Si. Most of these are actually more Te polr, or Se polr. This is more delta territory. Running over the garden hose with the lawn mower had me loling.
I do agree with you, but I'm not sure how that goes against what I said exactly. Could you explain?
But I probably explained it poorly, but it's kind of like ...there was an episode of the Simpsons (https://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/the-...01-mitigations) where Homer got the comic book guy's car from a valet and drove it around. Homer scratched his car and comic book guy didn't really care, but then he saw his comic (never opened) was destroyed in the backseat and he wanted Homer to go to jail for it. Homer tried buying another comic to replace it, but comic book guy didn't care.
Comic book guy (this guy doesn't have a name, does he?) instead took a memento that Homer had from his father and broke it and considered that "even".
It's kind of like people that buy nice cars and leave them in a garage because it's more about the feeling they get from the car (Si), then about the thrill of driving it (Se). A lot of traditions, especially holidays, have a lot of Si surrounding them. It's some deeply cherished, yet internalized image of these holidays that is less conceptual and much more personal. Like 4th of July was fun for me because we could blow stuff up and see what kind of crazy shit we could do with fireworks, but the tradition of 4th of July being some idealized representation of American freedom seems a bit weird to me when it happened so long ago and we don't even really know what it means anymore, since that time is long gone and things have changed so much since then. The actual meaning behind it seems completely lost at this point, particularly given that the US is a huge ally with the UK and in this day and age a lot of the freedoms that were fought for in the past, arguably have been slowly lost with time. It seems mostly a representation for a personal and idealized image of American indepedence, rather than a conceptual one of what American independence actually means.
So I don't know, but that's more or less what I'm getting at.
Androgynous Robot Dreamer - Not really human, but good at pretending.
if the project is something the Si-PoLR type cares about, they'll work obsessively but in short bursts to avoid impatience and boredom. If not, they'll pass most of the work onto others and stay up late just for the extra free time.
Valuing being a "hard worker" is really more of an Se thing. EIEs and LIEs are managers, not workers.
Thanks dual!
BTW my example was based on a vacation trip
You initially said they don't value aesthetics or personal image, that's mainly all I was disputing. Clear they do—just per different qualitative parameters that may be not as obvious from an opposite orientation.
When speaking of information metabolism, this concerns how different types experience reality and how their mind is colored by that. So I usually try to get at the inner life of the subject.
The thing is that Si-polr people can sometimes seem more oriented "towards Si" than even Si base people. Why is that?
Si base is just an irrational sensing function. It just perceives any impressions that happen to come up. "The whole world is Si". There is also no means for expressing this Si. This is not a very useful function in daily life.
In Si polr types the person has his strong functions to go about doing things, and then he can orient himself towards Si in a narrow/limited way (in the spirit of the PoLR so to speak). The thing is, this is often needed for many tasks.
Let's say you are doing some technical work. Then it might be good to be primarily rationally thinking and then just use minor Si for the sensual/physical adjustments. Of course it depends on the work.
Many good dancers are EIE. They handle the expressive part and time flow with their ego functions, and then do small very narrow adjustments with Si (posture, hand pressure etc)
Last edited by Tallmo; 07-02-2019 at 01:59 PM.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Is there anyway to balance it out? To neither ignore it or obsess over it? Or can you only do one. I have in the passed ignored my polr, but I do think obsessing over my polr is better than neglecting it. Both bring problems how ever I do wish I could just pay attention to it, with out overcompensating on it.
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