View Poll Results: type of Jordan Peterson?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    4 3.15%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    2 1.57%
  • LII (INTj)

    22 17.32%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    9 7.09%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    45 35.43%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    8 6.30%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    1 0.79%
  • ILI (INTp)

    10 7.87%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    21 16.54%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    5 3.94%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    1 0.79%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    1 0.79%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    4 3.15%
  • EII (INFj)

    3 2.36%
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Thread: Jordan Peterson

  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    He still looks introverted in the video. EIEs are extraverted types.
    That's like saying that Arizona is a sunny place.

    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Crying/getting emotional is not an indication of Fe. It's not even exclusive to ethical types.
    Yeah but having a monologue about 'humanistic values' and getting so passionate about what you're talking about to the point when you start crying about how important this is for the entire humanity might be a good indication...

    That's just an intellectual version of EIE. But I don't know maybe you think that science is only reserved for logical types and I shouldn't be studying cognitive sciences because I'm an EIE, too and instead I should focus on singing or acting because I should be extroverted?


    Again, clearly valuing Se over Si and devaluing Fi... This is basically black on white that he values people like SLE/LSI.

    When he talks about getting the right partner, he insists on finding someone who's demanding and challenging... He values structure, discipline, strength and truth over mercy - to put it simply.

    Clearly this guy's on a mission to "save humanity".
    Last edited by azbestos; 03-08-2018 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #362
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    Erm mer gerd he crossed his legs what a betaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

    Parameterssssssssssss. manlinessssssssssss.

  3. #363
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    Here's an excerpt from Jung's description for Ti. It's a dead ringer for Peterson:

    "If in his eyes his product appears correct and true, then it must be so in practice, and others have got to bow to its truth. Hardly ever will he go out of his way to win anyone's appreciation of it, especially anyone of influence."

    "He usually has bad experiences with rivals in his own field because he never understands how to curry their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, headstrong, and quite unamenable to influence."

    "Because he thinks out his problems to the limit, he complicates them and constantly gets entangled in his own scruples and misgivings. However clear to him the inner structure of his thoughts may be, he is not in the least clear whear or how they link up with the world of reality. Only with the greatest difficulty will he bring himself to admit that what is clear to him may not be equally clear to everyone."

    "In his personal relations he is taciturn or else throws himself on people who cannot understand him, and for him this is one more proof of the abysmal stupidity of man. If for once he is understood, he easily succumbs to credulous overestimation of his prowess."

    "In his own special field of work he provokes the most violent opposition, which he has no notion how to deal with, unless he happens to be seduced by his primitive affects into acrimonious and fruitless polemics. Casual acquaintances think him inconsiderate and domineering...To outsiders he seems prickly, unapproachable and arrogant, and sometimes soured as a result of his anti-social prejudices."

    "He is a poor teacher, because all the time he is teaching his thought is occupied with the material itself and not with its presentation."

    "With the intensification of his type, his convictions become all the more rigid and unbending. Outside influences are shut off; as a person, too, he becomes more unsympathetic to his wider circle of acquaintances....his tone becomes personal and surly, and though his ideas may gain in profundity they can no longer be adequately expressed in the material at hand."

  4. #364
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    I still think IEI. Perhaps Fe subtype.

  5. #365
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    IEI of either subtype is a bizarre typing for Peterson. He's far too interested and concerned with the scientific method for an IEI.

    But let's review. Ni has nothing to do with cognizing "the grand scheme of things." That horribly vague, vapid, ambiguous, meaningless definition implies a degree of competence and interest in the real world that IEIs don't have.

    But, this board has gone to shit over the last year when it comes to spotting IEIs, so nothing surprises me. I never used to see these kind of horrible IEI typings pop up before. That's what happens when some people take their cues about a type from a charlatan who gets off on duping people's sense of reality or from people with no real world experience who nonetheless invest time in blogs purporting to tell you what Ni is.

    Use the Socionics New Wave Template for IEI. It's the best out there.

  6. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Here's an excerpt from Jung's description for Ti. It's a dead ringer for Peterson:

    "If in his eyes his product appears correct and true, then it must be so in practice, and others have got to bow to its truth. Hardly ever will he go out of his way to win anyone's appreciation of it, especially anyone of influence."

    "He usually has bad experiences with rivals in his own field because he never understands how to curry their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, headstrong, and quite unamenable to influence."

    "Because he thinks out his problems to the limit, he complicates them and constantly gets entangled in his own scruples and misgivings. However clear to him the inner structure of his thoughts may be, he is not in the least clear whear or how they link up with the world of reality. Only with the greatest difficulty will he bring himself to admit that what is clear to him may not be equally clear to everyone."

    "In his personal relations he is taciturn or else throws himself on people who cannot understand him, and for him this is one more proof of the abysmal stupidity of man. If for once he is understood, he easily succumbs to credulous overestimation of his prowess."

    "In his own special field of work he provokes the most violent opposition, which he has no notion how to deal with, unless he happens to be seduced by his primitive affects into acrimonious and fruitless polemics. Casual acquaintances think him inconsiderate and domineering...To outsiders he seems prickly, unapproachable and arrogant, and sometimes soured as a result of his anti-social prejudices."

    "He is a poor teacher, because all the time he is teaching his thought is occupied with the material itself and not with its presentation."

    "With the intensification of his type, his convictions become all the more rigid and unbending. Outside influences are shut off; as a person, too, he becomes more unsympathetic to his wider circle of acquaintances....his tone becomes personal and surly, and though his ideas may gain in profundity they can no longer be adequately expressed in the material at hand."
    That's my stubborn freaking LSI friend right there...

    But just today he asked me to be his priest and write essays about nature of reality and as he said he doesn't believe in universal good in this world... Something that Peterson would definitely love to teach him about.

    Another thing is nearly anyone who's a master in his field with PhD or so will argue his point fiercely, maybe even an IEI. Surprise? I guess not. My father's also EIE and I heard him argue about the most ridiculous shit based on anecdotal evidence till people got tired of him...
    Oh and btw my brother's an IEI has a master's degree in political sciences and works for the ministry of defense (in a European country). Would you call that an unusual field for an IEI? Too concerned with politics for an IEI perhaps? That's a tremendous bias on your side.

    And yes, Ni has a lot to do with seeing "the grand scheme of things". In fact - being described as presumpted dynamics of relations it is the backbone of seeing the 'grand scheme of things'. And if we want to talk about this Peterson makes an extensive use of presumpted/alleged dynamics of both elements and objects in his theories about the workings of the world - in fact his entire worldview relies on these mechanisms.

    You guys are so full of what someone must be or should be or behave based on your expectations for types that you're missing the point of the entire information metabolism and what constitutes the person. But I never expected that people with poor ethics and intuition are good at reading people. Kind of like you're not expecting an ethical person to be constructive and logical.

  7. #367

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    Quote Originally Posted by azbestos View Post
    That's like saying that Arizona is a sunny place.
    Exactly, glad you agree with me that Jordan Peterson is so obviously introverted.

  8. #368
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    The television host in this video may have the same type as Jordan Peterson.


  9. #369
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    First I thought he was introvert, coz he seem to deliver what he already thought (in his intorverted state).
    But that was not enough. He make topics from human problem areas. Im going to type him ESE.

  10. #370
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    LIE do not communicate that way, he is sensor.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Sigh. I sat down to finally, properly type the annoying fucker. He keeps popping up on my timeline and haunts me in my dear dreams so I figured I — JUST DO IT BEFORE HE KEEPS MAKING ME MAD AS HELL!!!





    Verdict:Brainwashed by Conservative Christianity and white male supremacy. Just kidding: INTj. Your typical social 5w6, 1w2, 2w1.

    Suggestive and dependent on the response of the audience, , as he explains in the interview, and vulnerable to "onslaught" (). The only trace of ethics being his conception of good and evil, but again in an analytical format that he hardly applies to anyone and just uses to elaborate on something abstract. 1D , he has minimal deliberate mimicry and emotional statements, but anticipates input.

    Key sentences for how he uses the NT elements, particularly and 4D :

    "I can't sleep at night because I'm thinking about something, what I'll do is go write it down. I'll try making videos and telling people what I'm thinking about to see if that performs the same function as writing. Butthe fundamental purpose for me is to clarify my thoughts. So that I know, if something is disturbing you what that means is that it needs to be articulated, it's the emergence of unexplored territory. That's the right way to think about it. It's like a vista of threat and possibility and you need to articulate a path through it. I was thinking well this [...] seems to be why, this is what I think is going on... [But] It's never obvious what's going on, because things go on on multiple levels. They go on on a theological level, familiar etc... You have to pick a level of analysis that is most suitable to the problem."

    "Making the video was probably illegal under the pending legislation. The university helpfully delivered me a letter certainly informed by legal advice that what I had feared about actually doing was actually the case. I was violating the university's principles of inclusion and diversity and also likely violating the provincial guidelines. I thought thank you very much, you proved my point. [...] you should take both sides of the argument into account, present both sides, and then say you decided you needed to discipline me but don't omit half the story!"


    ILI is the only other type I considered but here he values over , ignoring doesn't work:

    "It's the power of speech to transform reality. But more importantly, more fundamentally, it's the power of truthful speech to transform reality into a positive direction. We have this magic ability to change the future. And we do that through action obviously. But action is oriented by thought! And thought is mediated by dialogue. It's speech that's particularly critically important to this logos process. The logos is symbolically represented in the figure of Christ who's the word that was there at the beginning of time. So... that's a very complicated topic. But what it essentially means is that that the west has formulated a symbol for the ideal human being. There is emphasis in other belief systems [he goes on analyzing and creating categories]. What happens if you aggregate enough hero myths and extract out the central theme you end up with the logos. It's the thing that's common to all heroes, that's a good way of thinking about it. It's articulation and dissemination into society as a whole. Imagine that these ideas are implicit."

    His exact opposite would be type Napoleon: utterly and confidently grounded in his or her surroundings, completely partial and attached instead of rule-bound, volatile moods and disregard for making sense and breaking down things in an abstract way.
    He kind of looks like obama here. Other color of skin and a bit less base in voice.

  12. #372
    back for the time being Chae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    He kind of looks like obama here. Other color of skin and a bit less base in voice.
    Peterson = the white Obama? Congrats. You take the crown for worst attempt at V.I. 2018

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Peterson = the white Obama? Congrats. You take the crown for worst attempt at V.I. 2018
    Hehe, EII is probably the most safe bet on type but who knows. I do not know the guy or entertained by him so I leave it be.

  14. #374
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    I just see LIE - Creative subtype

    I don't understand the LII typing. There is no Ti base, no way.

    He is just . He grasps everything with it. Facts, ideas...

    He is also very seeking.

    I'm thinking that he is outwardly quite confident, but not so confident on the inside.

    He is also very explicit, like how he explains things. He just goes on and on

    I agree that he seems a little like Obama, whom I type D-LIE
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  15. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I just see LIE - Creative subtype

    I don't understand the LII typing. There is no Ti base, no way.

    He is just . He grasps everything with it. Facts, ideas...

    He is also very seeking.

    I'm thinking that he is outwardly quite confident, but not so confident on the inside.

    He is also very explicit, like how he explains things. He just goes on and on

    I agree that he seems a little like Obama, whom I type D-LIE
    Ti is an explicit IE.

  16. #376
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    still think @FDG had the right idea with EII-Fi

  17. #377
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    peterson going hard on politeness, making a point similar to one I made way back about how if you abdicate entirely to Fe you let Hamlet control you via manufacturing offense

    https://youtu.be/rfGiGlNLkyY?t=209

    reminds me of when tom cruise told his interviewer to "put your manners back in" when he questioned him about scientology

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    still think @FDG had the right idea with EII-Fi
    yeah, tbh i am the best typer in this forum
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  19. #379
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    Doesn't seem to exhibit EIE behaviors/values based on the latest Queen's University talk. Rails on a lot about how aristocracy is bad, democracy is good, free speech shouldn't be limited by the government, yada yada. I sort of wonder if his part about a discourse boundary based on English Common Law is something a delta NF (IEE in particular) would be more predisposed to disagreeing on, because of the way he casts anything outside law as you know, like a demonic chaos kind of thing.

    Watch it if you're curious. Some protesters broke a window.

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by whodat View Post
    Peterson is a self described extrovert is he not? Also, he seems pretty okay with being out there in the spot light and seems to pursue engagements online, like having skype interviews ect.
    Listening to what he has shared of himself in his video lectures, saying his thoughts emanate "from the depths" of himself and that he seeks inner alignment, his self-description is that of an introvert. Some introverts are public figures and there are many ILI and LII academics who will speak before lecture halls of students, so social extroversion is not a good measure of socionics one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    J.Peterson.
    "I always feel when I talk whether or not the words I'm saying are either making me aligned or making me come apart. I really do think alignment - I think alignment is the right way of coceptualizing it, if you say things as true as you can say them - then they come up, they come out of the depths inside of you."

    introversion/extraversion
    introverts:
    - Psychic energy more often flows inwards.
    - More often focused on their thoughts and feelings.
    - Often better at concentrating. (he is a pro at this)

  21. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    Listening to what he has shared of himself in his video lectures, saying his thoughts emanate "from the depths" of himself and that he seeks inner alignment, his self-description is that of an introvert. Some introverts are public figures and there are many ILI and LII academics who will speak before lecture halls of students, so social extroversion is not a good measure of socionics one.
    I also seek inner alignment and I am very familiar with the depths. Honestly I see myself in him so much. Except I am far more in my body and tone of voice and bodily persona, very much in my body. I can;t say enough good things about Petterson. hug fan, plus plus. btw, no I do not think he is my dual.

  22. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by whodat View Post
    I also seek inner alignment and I am very familiar with the depths. Honestly I see myself in him so much. Except I am far more in my body and tone of voice and bodily persona, very much in my body. I can;t say enough good things about Petterson. hug fan, plus plus. btw, no I do not think he is my dual.
    are you typing yourself as an extrovert?

  23. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    are you typing yourself as an extrovert?
    No, I'm not really typing myself at all. I could be an extrovert, but I would be a weird one.

    ---{I once spent a couple years far removed from society, spending days, even weeks alone in nature, living in a small hand built home in a far flung tiny community at the end of the hwy, hundreds of kms from a town and a couple thousand from a large City. I was driven to heal from immense trauma and turmoil and to pursue my path, a vision laid down in childhood. To bad it ended in my arrest and utter, utter humiliation and bereavement. It also led to the greatest relationship of my life. Both those chapters are closed now, although I am most familiar with that inner dialogue. Not an actual dialogue, but I know you catch my drift.}---

    I don't type myself, I can *do* all the informational elements fine. Start being typeless, in that you find more truth.

  24. #384
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    @whodat and this guy do look a lot alike. Like I said on chatbox he could be your dad in a movie lol. It is little wonder you like him so much, we usually often like people who are like us. It's kinda healthy and normal. Healthy narcissism sorta thing.

    Of course there's differences too but I am too lazy to get into them right now and it requires more logic than I can do right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whodat View Post
    I don't type myself, I can *do* all the informational elements fine. Start being typeless, in that you find more truth.
    I can agree with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dead bnd View Post
    @whodat and this guy do look a lot alike. Like I said on chatbox he could be your dad in a movie lol. It is little wonder you like him so much, we usually often like people who are like us. It's kinda healthy and normal. Healthy narcissism sorta thing.

    Of course there's differences too but I am too lazy to get into them right now and it requires more logic than I can do right now.
    You mean personality wise or in looks? Cause in looks we look nothing alike!

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    https://youtu.be/V32WHDuy-Do?t=654

    this is complex of closed mouth in its pure form as far as I can tell

  28. #388
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    it's almost like opposite quadra carry each other in their subconscious, which has reminded me of this discussion

    JP: One of the things that I had learned when I was doing all this background investigation was that there isn't a higher value than free speech. It isn't free speech, it's not the right way of thinking about it - because it's free thought - and even that is not the right way of thinking about it - because thought is a precursor to action and life - so there is no difference between free speech and free life, and I was just not willing to put up with restrictions on my free life.
    and another discussion about how 'aristocratic' quadra gravitate towards collectivism that necessitates a government while 'democratic' quadra favor individualism and see government mostly as an interference

  29. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    it's almost like opposite quadra carry each other in their subconscious, which has reminded me of this discussion



    and another discussion about how 'aristocratic' quadra gravitate towards collectivism that necessitates a government while 'democratic' quadra favor individualism and see government mostly as an interference
    Ideas like this about quadra always make me think that I am solidly democratic as individual freedom is very important to me, and I have no great love for the government, thinking it should be much smaller and less involved than it is.

    But, these aren't the only ideas regarding aristocratic and democratic quadras. Another take on the distinction regards how people relate to the roles/positions they occupy. Things like: Honor your parents. Give respect to the elderly. A teacher/mentor should keep a professional distance with students. Leave handicapped parking spaces open for those who are actually handicapped. Give the seats closest to the doors on a bus to the elderly, pregnant women, and the handicapped. And under this kind of distinction, things like those cases of teachers sleeping with students would bother aristocrats much more than democrats - as aristocrats would say this is a violation of their position as teacher, while the democrats would say - they're all the same, there's no difference between teacher and student. The difference would only be between whether you think that people are different and have different responsibilities based on their status and role, or whether you think everyone is equal in all ways.

    The degree of governmental interference a person wanted or didn't want in their life wouldn't be a factor under this take of aristocratic/democratic.

  30. #390
    Now I'm down in it Ave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Ideas like this about quadra always make me think that I am solidly democratic as individual freedom is very important to me, and I have no great love for the government, thinking it should be much smaller and less involved than it is.

    But, these aren't the only ideas regarding aristocratic and democratic quadras. Another take on the distinction regards how people relate to the roles/positions they occupy. Things like: Honor your parents. Give respect to the elderly. A teacher/mentor should keep a professional distance with students. Leave handicapped parking spaces open for those who are actually handicapped. Give the seats closest to the doors on a bus to the elderly, pregnant women, and the handicapped. And under this kind of distinction, things like those cases of teachers sleeping with students would bother aristocrats much more than democrats - as aristocrats would say this is a violation of their position as teacher, while the democrats would say - they're all the same, there's no difference between teacher and student. The difference would only be between whether you think that people are different and have different responsibilities based on their status and role, or whether you think everyone is equal in all ways.

    The degree of governmental interference a person wanted or didn't want in their life wouldn't be a factor under this take of aristocratic/democratic.
    I personally think the democratic/aristocratic dictotomy is very tricky, it doesn't have anything to do with collectivism or individualism in a political or philosophical sense.

    I tend to agree with the take on how people see the roles and positions they occupy. A simple way to tell if a person is democratic or aristocratic is to look at how they describe themselves. Do they use individual traits ("I have a sense of humor", "I have serious wanderlust", "I am an imaginative person" etc) or do they talk more about the role they occupy or see themselves occupying ("family father", "soldier doing my duty", "cat person" etc). Notice for example how "cat person" isn't a position in hierarchy or in society but it puts the individual against a backdrop of general traits (as if there were two types of people, cat people and dog people).

    So in that sense, you can believe in individualism on a philosophical level, and be an aristocratic type.

    I realize the dichotomy is controversial, but I think it is useful in the hands of someone who knows how to make the best of it. Some people tend to think in too simplistic/stereotypical terms, and that doesn't help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I personally think the democratic/aristocratic dictotomy is very tricky, it doesn't have anything to do with collectivism or individualism in a political or philosophical sense.
    Agree. I don't think it makes sense to think of it in those terms.

    I tend to agree with the take on how people see the roles and positions they occupy. A simple way to tell if a person is democratic or aristocratic is to look at how they describe themselves. Do they use individual traits ("I have a sense of humor", "I have serious wanderlust", "I am an imaginative person" etc) or do they talk more about the role they occupy or see themselves occupying ("family father", "soldier doing my duty", "cat person" etc). Notice for example how "cat person" isn't a position in hierarchy or in society but it puts the individual against a backdrop of general traits (as if there were two types of people, cat people and dog people).

    So in that sense, you can believe in individualism on a philosophical level, and be an aristocratic type.

    I realize the dichotomy is controversial, but I think it is useful in the hands of someone who knows how to make the best of it. Some people tend to think in too simplistic/stereotypical terms, and that doesn't help.
    I'm not sure about that, as I think identifying with a group could have as much or more to do with social instinct, and isn't necessary to have an aristocratic outlook. You could still see yourself as an individual even as an aristocrat I think, but an individual with a position and specific duties related to it. Something like thinking: "As a father, it is my responsibility to make sure my children are provided for" while not introducing yourself as a father or talking about it. A reaction to someone suggesting you abandon your kids or something would be to think "A father wouldn't do that" recognizing that your role and the responsibilities attached to that role is bigger than yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Agree. I don't think it makes sense to think of it in those terms.



    I'm not sure about that, as I think identifying with a group could have as much or more to do with social instinct, and isn't necessary to have an aristocratic outlook. You could still see yourself as an individual even as an aristocrat I think, but an individual with a position and specific duties related to it. Something like thinking: "As a father, it is my responsibility to make sure my children are provided for" while not introducing yourself as a father or talking about it. A reaction to someone suggesting you abandon your kids or something would be to think "A father wouldn't do that" recognizing that your role and the responsibilities attached to that role is bigger than yourself.
    @squark, I think the text of the person you quoted (@Avebury) was pretty insightful, and something that I’d never really considered before.

    And while your point of it being related to the social instinct is plausible, I’m So-second (which is supposedly the most competent instinct), but I’ve never identified myself with any group. Rather than saying “I’m a welder”, I was always careful to say “I’m a person who welds”, or “I’m pretending to be a machinist” (when I was paid to do machining).

    Right now, I tell people I’m someone who gathers the pieces together and channels money from place to place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @squark, I think the text of the person you quoted (@Avebury) was pretty insightful, and something that I’d never really considered before.

    And while your point of it being related to the social instinct is plausible, I’m So-second (which is supposedly the most competent instinct), but I’ve never identified myself with any group. Rather than saying “I’m a welder”, I was always careful to say “I’m a person who welds”, or “I’m pretending to be a machinist” (when I was paid to do machining).

    Right now, I tell people I’m someone who gathers the pieces together and channels money from place to place.
    There are fine points of difference between the viewpoints, and I'm not arguing aristocracy is definitely this or that, just that how you look at and define the term can place people in very different camps.

    Dividing people along philosophical lines of individualism vs collectivism is one take, dividing people along the lines of belonging to a specific group vs individual identity is another take, and the third is to divide people by status/role while retaining individual characteristics and individual identity.

    I don't really like quadras, or the reinin traits that supposedly separate them, but I will give examples of people I think have a democratic outlook vs aristocratic outlook according to how I look at the terms. One example being an LIE who had a mentor status within a community we were both a part of. He was in his mid-40s and there was a girl, barely 20 who looked up to him, and he slept with her, and in my opinion he didn't take responsibility for the fall-out of it, or step up as he should have. I told him that I didn't think he should have done this because of his mentor-status, and he said, "But she pursued me" and said, "But she has a lot of sexual experience already" and other such things as though that excused his actions. He didn't recognize that they were at different spots, had different roles, and that it was his responsibility to keep a professional distance. To him, they were just both consenting adults, and she was the pursuer anyway, so he did nothing wrong.

    Another example is if you hear someone say something like, "You shouldn't speak to your parents that way" - a democratic person might say, "Why not? They're no better than I am" as though it's a difference of quality. This isn't the same as blindly following authority, it's just a recognition of that person's role in your life. The parent also has duties towards the child, it goes both ways.

    I said something about someone not being professional and a democratic person said to me, "I always forget there is such a thing as professionals. To me, they're all just people." In other words, there aren't different standards or different responsibilities according to a person's role, that everyone is truly equal.

    Aristocracy keeps some semblance of order in society, recognizing that different people have a different place, but it's not always the same place. For instance, you might be the leader of a country, a president or king, but if you step into a plane, the pilot is always PIC "pilot in command" and his or her word on what happens in that plane is final, nobody regardless of their rank and title anywhere else supersedes this authority. If it was democratic and everyone was equal, then nobody would be able to hold that authority, the pilot's position and training wouldn't have anymore weight than anyone else's ideas.

    Anyway, that's how I look at what aristocracy is. . . and like I said there are other ideas on this, ideas that could put the same person in a different camp. I think it's easy when people look at those who operate differently than they do to assume things about them that might not be true, and where you draw the lines between this thing and that thing probably reflect those ideas you have about yourself, and the other people.

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    IDK the IEIst person I know calls herself a cat person

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    IEI is aristocratic perhaps you misunderstood me?

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    identifying yourself with the cordialities that accompany your office is Fe. its essentially how you sort out "your place" in some objective sense. brightest when combined with aristocracy and seeks out active "social climbing" this is what is meant by LSI seeking to get into a system and climb the ladder. they expect everyone wants to do this so they see enforcement of the ladder as a kind of service to likeminded people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    identifying yourself with the cordialities that accompany your office is Fe. its essentially how you sort out "your place" in some objective sense. brightest when combined with aristocracy and seeks out active "social climbing" this is what is meant by LSI seeking to get into a system and climb the ladder. they expect everyone wants to do this so they see enforcement of the ladder as a kind of service to likeminded people
    "I think it's easy when people look at those who operate differently than they do to assume things about them that might not be true, and where you draw the lines between this thing and that thing probably reflect those ideas you have about yourself, and the other people." It's better to just listen, rather than try to enforce your own viewpoint of what someone is or isn't onto them. You're probably wrong.

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    what do you mean?

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    Suppose that there is an "Aristocratic" part of the brain. Since this "Aristocracy" is a highly abstract, and even a social concept, it seems improbable that one is "born" with such an abstract idea about the world (how can the brain just somehow "know" these abstract concepts?). It must be that this "Aristocracy" is an abstract concept which is based on other abstract concepts, such as beliefs or value systems (for they are based on beliefs about the world). To "know" how to act in Aristocratic ways, it must mean that information is gathered from sensory data, then it must be somehow passed onto this "Aristocratic" part of the brain. Does this "Aristocracy" perform an executive function? Or is this Aristocracy fed into the executive part of brain, which makes all the final conscious decisions? And on what criteria does the executive part of the brain make the decisions? Is this Aristocracy ever rejected, and do other things ever get considered? How would it conflict with all the other traits?

    Also, why should we derive universal statements from singular statements, such as "I have observed 3 LSIs to act in this way, so therefore, all LSIs must be this way"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what do you mean?
    The traits you dislike in others and believe that you don't possess, become the point you divide people at, separating like self from other. So, where you draw the line between things reflect your personal values. When you preemptively put someone in that "other" camp you can apply attributes to them they don't actually possess, assuming that they fall on the other side of your line in every aspect of your category. You lose nuance and you lose understanding.

    So, take what I said about aristocracy -- this is assuming I fall on the aristocratic side of the line, so it becomes a reflection of the traits I see in myself, or don't see in myself. It's biased, and I fully admit that it's biased. The bias was my point. If I saw myself on the democratic side of the line, then maybe I'd be agreeing with the individual vs collective division point instead, because the other, the not-me are the collectivists. The division between aristocracy and democracy is not an objective one, it's highly subject to interpretation, and depending on how you interpret it people will begin falling into very different groups.

    By Avebury's distinction the "cat-people" etc, I am not aristocratic either, as I'd never refer to myself in those kinds of terms either. You can either throw me into a democratic camp, or examine the terms closer. Perhaps ethical types are more prone to group-identify themselves, perhaps it's related to something else entirely (which is where I suggested perhaps it was social instinct, but that doesn't seem like a good explanation either) So, is there a good distinction between aristocratic and democratic? If there is, what is it, and is it a distinction that people will easily and naturally agree with one side or the other? If there isn't a good distinction, or it's not a category that people can easily identify with or not, then it's probably not a very good choice to use to separate people into type-categories with.

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