What the heck is Si...

[Number 9 large]

Alright, Since we got a Ni thread, I'd like to discuss Si...
According to Sociotype.com, Si means this:

Introverted sensing is an irrational, introverted, and dynamic information element. It is also referred to as Si, S, experiential sensing, or white sensing. Si is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail. Si focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.

So how is this in any way a cognitive function? How is this even remotely useful in real life?
It basically says ''this person is able to feel, or form an opinion of objects around him''.
Seems pretty useless to me. I mean, can't everyone do this?

[DirectorAbbie]

Si being my creative function, I think I'm better able to explain it than any other function.
So, some things I've noticed about Si and/or those with Si:

We get attached to our surroundings. An Se type will have no qualms rearranging everything or trading things out if they figure it would be more advantageous to do so. The Si would balk at that (though they could be convinced). I still have my calculator and measuring tape from 6th grade. I'm wearing a shirt from 3rd grade. And I can remember when I got this shirt and another event that happened while I was wearing it.

If I consider an item, I can get flashbacks regarding it. I don't know whether this is the case for all Si-egos. But I know this trait of mine has bugged an Si-devaluer who doesn't give a hoot about items' history.

My SEI-Si brother is a hoarder. He has collected pretty (like nice wrappers) and unique (like broken magnets) garbage and is protective of it. I am also protective of my stuff. Not because it has material value, but because it has personal value.

Se = objective sensing
Si = subjective sensing

[isptn]

I am trying to figure this out myself. Some see me as Ne base, others see me as Si base, or something else. If I do happen to be Si base, then I have some observations about what that means, particularly blocked with Te.

I can be very aware of my own internal sensations, but I usually ignore them in favor of whatever I'm focusing on or busy doing. It is easy for me to ignore immediate physical discomfort, especially if doing so is more efficient in terms of energy, effort, resources, etc. I don't usually care for pleasant physical sensations like sunbathing or coziness. The top priority is ease and simplicity. What this means is that I'm inclined to create a lifestyle that minimizes unnecessary effort and struggle which is like swimming upstream, in favor of going with the flow. The flow of course depends on the individual, what feels like a pleasant walk in the park for one person might feel like climbing a mountain to another. I find that I'm drawn to minimalistic lifestyles and frugality. Rather than buying a house or renting an apartment, I'm drawn to the idea of buying land and building my own place, which is not only cheaper but also allows me to create my own habitat that suits me. I favor things that are sustainable long-term and do not require too much maintenance.

If this is Si (and once again, who knows whether it is or not), then here are what I would say are some of the strengths of Si in SLI:
-Ability to mentally track the immediate environment with less energy cost than other types, which can result in a strong ongoing awareness of the layout of places and relative locations of objects in space
-Resourcefulness, awareness of the physical potential of objects according to their properties, everything that can be done with them, such as converting a shed into a living space or building a fence out of sticks and twine
-Awareness of physical energy or flow and whether one is working with that energy or against it, ability to avoid overly taxing and stressful ways of doing things in favor of ease and simplicity
-Temporal perspective, awareness of whether things are sustainable over time in terms of physical maintenance required and energy/motivation ("Is it worth the sustained effort? Will I tire eventually? Is there a simpler way to do this?")

SLI's strongest point may be their ability to thrive in situations of scarcity. It is common that people find themselves in situations where they have few resources, struggle financially, face obstacles like chronic illness or injury that make it harder to survive, etc. SLI naturally conserves resources and makes optimal use of what is available, which can be very valuable.

[isptn]

Si being my creative function, I think I'm better able to explain it than any other function.
So, some things I've noticed about Si and/or those with Si:

We get attached to our surroundings. An Se type will have no qualms rearranging everything or trading things out if they figure it would be more advantageous to do so. The Si would balk at that (though they could be convinced). I still have my calculator and measuring tape from 6th grade. I'm wearing a shirt from 3rd grade. And I can remember when I got this shirt and another event that happened while I was wearing it.

If I consider an item, I can get flashbacks regarding it. I don't know whether this is the case for all Si-egos. But I know this trait of mine has bugged an Si-devaluer who doesn't give a hoot about items' history.

My SEI-Si brother is a hoarder. He has collected pretty (like nice wrappers) and unique (like broken magnets) garbage and is protective of it. I am also protective of my stuff. Not because it has material value, but because it has personal value.

Se = objective sensing
Si = subjective sensing

Can't say I relate. I would much rather get rid of old possessions that are no longer needed than keep carrying them around. I prefer to have few possessions and don't really get attached to them. It's easier to travel light.

But I would say that I have a preference for preserving things as they are, keeping things in their original state. Some people write on their hands to help them remember things, it's not something I would do because I don't want to change the state of my hands, even though I know it washes off.

[DirectorAbbie]

It's easier to travel light.

Yes, which is why I am less than eager to acquire new possessions.


Another angle is that Si is often related to food. This is a stereotype, but not one entirely without reason.
In my experience, Si types will pay more attention to the nuances of a food, whereas Se types, while not oblivious to the nature of food and still preferring certain flavors, are unlikely to concern themselves with such trivialities regarding the calories they must consume

[Pookie]

"Si is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them... Si focuses on ... the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states "

An Si is the most adept at knowing how an action, or choice of words will affect someone internally. Want to learn how to approach and talk to strangers in a way that imparts a desired effect? Confer with an Si base. They are more aware of how outside stimuli directly effected them, and that allows for it to grow into a skill that allows them to understand how to then affect others in a similar manner.

Often the line between this aspect of Si and Fe gets blurred, and both are involved and external, so it makes sense. But Fe reads affect. They understand what their actions did, past tense. They read it on your face. Si's domain is more adept beforehand. Together, its what makes Alpha SFs great people persons.

For example, SLI can be very smooth people that know what to say in situations I would not, as an IEI. However they are less skilled at knowing when something they said had an adverse reaction, as they're not constantly and actively reading into miniscule facial cues like Fe does. I pretty much always know when I said something wrong, or it wasnt taken well. But premeditatively I could not have foreseen that it would be taken bad to the level that an Si could.

Ne can be all over the place with their internal states, and so its appreciated when theyre around someone who can navigate those waters and allow them to feel a sense of homeostasis. This parallels how an Se base can expend their energy all over the place and create adverse reactions or undesired consequences, and so they appreciate someone who can conceptualize the chain of events an action would spur and that foresight fosters a more fruitful use of their energy and time.

[isptn]

Another angle is that Si is often related to food. This is a stereotype, but not one entirely without reason.
In my experience, Si types will pay more attention to the nuances of a food, whereas Se types, while not oblivious to the nature of food and still preferring certain flavors, are unlikely to concern themselves with such trivialities regarding the calories they must consume

I find that I don't usually worry about things like calories and nutrition or controlling what I eat because for me it usually tends to balance out if I just eat whatever I'm inclined to eat. If I eat a lot of sugar one day, I tend to get an anti-craving and want nothing to do with sugar the next. If I feel I've eaten too much food one day, I may feel less hungry the next. But I know it doesn't work that way for everyone.

When it comes to taste, I'm not a picky eater and probably not super attuned to subtle differences. I'm not entirely sure how people decide that certain food is better quality than others, not that I couldn't identify what most people would consider it to be, but more that it doesn't make much difference to me. For example, I might prefer the taste of cheap, low quality pizza over that of fancy, high quality pizza.

[Hope]

A cognitive function is a way to collect information, is how we give and receive info.

Introverted functions are probably harder to understand and detect than Extroverted ones.

On this case Si is receiving information from the outside through 5 senses: touch, sight, hearing, taste, smelling…and how we relate to the outside stimuli (how it affect us).

Then, have in mind that functions are interconnected in each type, so consider that the information received through Si would be logically analyzed by Te etc.

And its pretty useful, actually. Talking about my experience, being an introvert, I'm observant (with all of my senses) and I can notice details and patterns in people, situations and things. Not always quickly but for sure on an accurate way. Also it let me value what is healthy and unhealthy (not just physically, but psychologically too)instinctively. The observance of Si is useful for finding solutions to problems too.

If we talk in naturalistic terms, I think its pretty useful for preservation of species and development of society in general, guess. Actually I think that a lot of things in our modern society are pretty Si (technology, industrial design, etc). Seriously, one of my worst nightmares would be to live in ancient times where people didn't have almost any kind of comfort.

[DirectorAbbie]

I find that I don't usually worry about things like calories and nutrition or controlling what I eat because for me it usually tends to balance out if I just eat whatever I'm inclined to eat.

Same. Maybe counting calories is just for middle-aged intuitives and those on a strict athletic regime.

[Pallas]

Alright, Since we got a Ni thread, I'd like to discuss Si...
According to Sociotype.com, Si means this:

Introverted sensing is an irrational, introverted, and dynamic information element. It is also referred to as Si, S, experiential sensing, or white sensing. Si is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail. Si focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.

So how is this in any way a cognitive function? How is this even remotely useful in real life?
It basically says ''this person is able to feel, or form an opinion of objects around him''.
Seems pretty useless to me. I mean, can't everyone do this?

Si and Ne sound completely pointless, and that's why everyone prefers Ni and Se. But in the same way as everyone gets used to the idea of having a fixed, genetically-determined personality type because the people around them do, people get used to the idea of pointless and ordinary functions as being on equal footing with minor superpowers.

[The Reality Denialist]

You'll see something and wonder if this is more pleasing than this. You are not sure. Then someone shows it to you and it makes sense. To continue development in this usually ends in total bafflement.
When people demand it from you might think you did OK job while there were lots of mistakes. You think it is better to follow automation or common methods. You try to scrutinize it to follow some sort of pattern but it doesn't work.
Someone else: She is experiencing cold because she is wearing that kind of jacket. I think: She had certain kind of jacket?

Story of my

[squark]

So how is this in any way a cognitive function? How is this even remotely useful in real life?

What you said is kind of the definition of spatial awareness, which is pretty useful, and a lot of people are pretty bad at it.

Edit to expand: Si isn't itself spatial awareness, and no element is just one thing - but spatial awareness is related to Si.

I think my sister embodies some good qualities related to Si. She has the absolute best sense of direction I've ever seen, always knowing exactly where she is in relation to everything else. She also has great physical control - if you watch her shoot, she is like a brick, super calm, super steady, and it's part of why her accuracy is so good. She also creates a lot of the designs that her husband and her use in their woodworking shop. So Si can be very useful.

-------------------
Edit2: Oh, I have more to add. I was out driving and so was thinking, and what's really cool and interesting at least to me is how the aspects relate to each other, and it can kind of illuminate things.

For instance, Si: external dynamics of fields vs Ti: external statics of fields. It's cool in the ways they're similar, and it's just the statics/dynamics that is different, the way Se and Te are similar/different. And what's also interesting is how all 4 of them are external (tangible.)

So, as I was driving I was thinking about how as you change position in space your relationship to everything around you also changes, and how that dynamicism relates to the dynamic nature of Si vs the static one of Ti. So, in my above example of my sister using Si, you have her sense of direction. As she moves her relationship is changing to everything else and this change is always being tracked, and she can easily see how traveling in this direction or that will lead to other destinations as she knows where they are in relation to her pretty much all the time. Or you have when she's shooting, she's controlling her breathing and her movement and recognizing how these things are constantly impacting the position of the barrel and thus the timing of the shot.

But Ti is the static aspect and it's all the static connections between things, which just changing dynamic/static can completely shift things. So, you're still seeing how things relate to one another, but not how they're shifting and changing. So, it's like you're standing in place, and you see how far this thing or that is from you and from each other, the distance between each thing, etc. There are more qualities of the relationship being taken into account, but without the movement. It becomes information about how things tangibly relate to one another, and not where they're going. Pure spatial relationships can be Ti then, but the constant awareness of oneself within space and how you relate to the shifting nature of it goes with Si. It's interesting. Both are tangible relationships between things, but from different viewpoints: static/dynamic.

And then the relationship of both of these to the other tangible aspects: Se and Te. These don't look at relationships between things, but rather the things themselves. Se is static and all of those tangible characteristics, like size, shape, color, texture, but then Te is dynamic and so you have instead what those things are doing.

And Te and Si have just the difference between them of the objects, vs the relationship between those objects. It makes it an interesting thing to think about when you start adding each together, as in Te + Si, or Se + Ti, and the statics/dynamics then of types themselves. I find it interesting, but am spoiler-tagging it bc idk how much this applies to your question, or if anyone else will find it interesting.

[Tallmo]

My SEI-Si brother is a hoarder. He has collected pretty (like nice wrappers) and unique (like broken magnets) garbage and is protective of it. I am also protective of my stuff. Not because it has material value, but because it has personal value.

Se = objective sensing
Si = subjective sensing

Si as subjective sensing means that the impressions sensed are internal, even though they are experienced as being out in the object. Si is not connected to value. When your brother collects his unique garbage he gets impressions from the material. That's Si.

Si is all kinds of impressions that arise from many materials, like natural materials, surfaces, liquids, dirt etc.

The problem with understanding Si is that most SEIs and SLIs actually have poorly developed Si. That's because they have to suppress it in order to manage in everyday life, work etc. It's only in SEI artists that you see strong Si. Then it can seem weird.

LSEs like to do methodical work with something where attention to material and impressions matter. Like knitting or hanging wallpaper. The LSE will do everything efficiently so it is neat and tidy and "good sensations". But the method always comes first. SEIs are much worse at hanging wallpaper, because here Si comes first and they rather just stare into the bucket of thick glue and play with it. Maybe creating great "glue art" but not getting the job done. That's why SEI always needs to develop weak functions too.

In SEIs Si is often useless because they don't have any way of bringing it into the world. Unless they are artists in some way, but that's not so common. Delta STs are the people who actually are able to work professionally with Si as carpenters, home decorators etc.

SEIs should try to develop some artistic hobby where they can work independently with impressions. Playing with watercolors, making drawings.

[Myst]

Si as subjective sensing means that the impressions sensed are internal, even though they are experienced as being out in the object. Si is not connected to value. When your brother collects his unique garbage he gets impressions from the material. That's Si.

Si is all kinds of impressions that arise from many materials, like natural materials, surfaces, liquids, dirt etc.

The problem with understanding Si is that most SEIs and SLIs actually have poorly developed Si. That's because they have to suppress it in order to manage in everyday life, work etc. It's only in SEI artists that you see strong Si. Then it can seem weird.

Both to you and to OP:

Yeah, Si is sensory impressions of how things fit or connect in a sensory, tangible way but it's pretty useful for life actually. It's not just a "weird subjective function". And yup you put that very well about how "impressions sensed are internal, even though they are experienced as being out in the object", yeah, it's still an External IE, explicit information of directly sensed tangible relations between things.

It was also mentioned in the thread that Ti is "information about how things tangibly relate to one another", I would put that as Ti being the distinctly defined and quantifiable relationships between things, not simply tangibly sensed. Since the difference between Sensing and Logic, the two External IEs is exactly that Sensing is sensed tangible perceptions (object oriented or relations oriented) and Logic is distinct judgments of definable things (again, object oriented or relations oriented).

LSEs like to do methodical work with something where attention to material and impressions matter. Like knitting or hanging wallpaper. The LSE will do everything efficiently so it is neat and tidy and "good sensations". But the method always comes first. SEIs are much worse at hanging wallpaper, because here Si comes first and they rather just stare into the bucket of thick glue and play with it. Maybe creating great "glue art" but not getting the job done. That's why SEI always needs to develop weak functions too.

I think it's the weak Te for SEI, it's not an issue of strong Si...

Si and Ne sound completely pointless, and that's why everyone prefers Ni and Se. But in the same way as everyone gets used to the idea of having a fixed, genetically-determined personality type because the people around them do, people get used to the idea of pointless and ordinary functions as being on equal footing with minor superpowers.

Heh, I don't think Ne is completely pointless either - humanity does need a way to form abstract general ideas of how external reality possibly is and then be able to use that understanding to progress forward. Its functioning runs "parallel" to Se so I personally very much have cognitive aversion to too much Ne but I recognize its value (at least in theory, lol).

[Hope]

That's really insightful! @squark
in mbti these characteristics are related to Se, that's why ISTPs are Ti Se Ni Fe. But here on Socionics this is just Si. That's why The Craftsman title is used in both, guess.

[Bertrand]

Nehtaro been watching too much John Wick, getting super aggressive for Si

[Tallmo]

Yeah, Si is sensory impressions of how things fit or connect in a sensory, tangible way but it's pretty useful for life actually. It's not just a "weird subjective function". And yup you put that very well about how "impressions sensed are internal, even though they are experienced as being out in the object", yeah, it's still an External IE, explicit information of directly sensed tangible relations between things.

Base Si is usually poorly developed, I want to stress that. The types are not equal in todays society. People need work and challenges to develop the base. But if Si is developed then the persons attention is going in any direction where impressions come from. It's often useless and can seem weird.
But most SEIs we meet are totally normal and suppressed. (including myself )

When we look around we see Si everywhere. In furniture, materials, restaurants, food. But it is standardized, a part of our culture of how things should be. Base Si wants to work independently. Si connects us to the physical environment in a deeper way. I think that's one way how SLI and SEI can contribute.

Yes, I used "internal" against socionics terminology, more in the everyday sense of the word.

It was also mentioned in the thread that Ti is "information about how things tangibly relate to one another", I would put that as Ti being the distinctly defined and quantifiable relationships between things, not simply tangibly sensed. Since the difference between Sensing and Logic, the two External IEs is exactly that Sensing is sensed tangible perceptions (object oriented or relations oriented) and Logic is distinct judgments of definable things (again, object oriented or relations oriented).

I must say I've never understood this "low-level" analysis of IEs. Maybe there is something in it, but it hasn't helped me. I prefer Jungs description of Si. It's challenging, but very enlightening.

I think it's the weak Te for SEI, it's not an issue of strong Si...

People prefer to work in the base function. Strong base Si leads to this. You just work directly with the impressions and everything else falls in the background. In SLIs the Te is following under Si so even here the progression of the work can be forgotten and they just get absorbed by the material, trying to manipulate it in different ways with Te.

But most people are well-adjusted and then it's a different thing.

[Bertrand]

I bet I would enjoy SEIs a lot more if they would let loose with the Si more. @Tallmo I think is hitting on a real phenomena here and I think it may be why Si base comes off as vanilla--it is in some ways a product of a world that does not encourage their full development

[DavidH]

To the best of my knowledge in Socionics Si appears to be divided along the lines of what it is paired with. When paired with Fe it would appear that it is associated with some means of bringing emotional comfort. When paired with Te it would appear that it is associated with convenience and ease of use.

A body may be in the effect of positive Si when the individual feels enthused due to such or when the individual is capable of continuing with what they are attempting to do to feel enthused.

Someone has mentioned food. Cake or chocolate is a good example of Si when paired with Fe. A well balanced meal or fiber content is a good example of Si paired with Te.

On the opposing spectrum of non-consumables. A new object or arrangement in the home is a good example of Si paired with Fe. A new cleaner or something to assist with living is a good example of Si paired with Te.

[Myst]

Base Si is usually poorly developed, I want to stress that. The types are not equal in todays society. People need work and challenges to develop the base. But if Si is developed then the persons attention is going in any direction where impressions come from. It's often useless and can seem weird.
But most SEIs we meet are totally normal and suppressed. (including myself )

When we look around we see Si everywhere. In furniture, materials, restaurants, food. But it is standardized, a part of our culture of how things should be. Base Si wants to work independently. Si connects us to the physical environment in a deeper way. I think that's one way how SLI and SEI can contribute.

Hmm, how do you mean it has to/wants to work independently if it's Base function? As for it being useless, you mean like the stereotypes of Si always lying on the couch enjoying the laziness? Because as an information element as defined in Socionics it does have a lot of actual use beyond just the standardized culture stuff. Tho' the Si with Fe could be seen as useless from a gamma Te pov, sure, lol

Yes, I used "internal" against socionics terminology, more in the everyday sense of the word.

Yeah, I figured that To be clear, I wasn't actually trying to correct that part, I was simply adding to what you were saying using the Socionics terms.

I must say I've never understood this "low-level" analysis of IEs. Maybe there is something in it, but it hasn't helped me. I prefer Jungs description of Si. It's challenging, but very enlightening.

Well this is what I like in the Socionics attempt to make a model - things are built up from the ground better than with MBTI for example.

People prefer to work in the base function. Strong base Si leads to this. You just work directly with the impressions and everything else falls in the background. In SLIs the Te is following under Si so even here the progression of the work can be forgotten and they just get absorbed by the material, trying to manipulate it in different ways with Te.

But most people are well-adjusted and then it's a different thing.

According to the theory Si base is dualizing with Ne, it would help it be more useful and be more integrated in society (true of any Base function with its Dual Seeking function). How would you say dualizing with Ne works for Si base?

[The Reality Denialist]

Been there once. Absolutely coolest house ever been in.

[Zero]

Yes, which is why I am less than eager to acquire new possessions.


Another angle is that Si is often related to food. This is a stereotype, but not one entirely without reason.
In my experience, Si types will pay more attention to the nuances of a food, whereas Se types, while not oblivious to the nature of food and still preferring certain flavors, are unlikely to concern themselves with such trivialities regarding the calories they must consume

This is why I can't convince my LSE friend to stop eating so much sugar and white bread. she simply says: "it tastes better this way" while ESIs don't put any salt or oil in the foods they cook, ESIs are basically health nuts

[Myst]

This is why I can't convince my LSE friend to stop eating so much sugar and white bread. she simply says: "it tastes better this way" while ESIs don't put any salt or oil in the foods they cook, ESIs are basically health nuts

Er. This is sooo much not type related.

[Zero]

Er. This is sooo much not type related.

I believe it is

[Myst]

I believe it is

No lol, it's basic biology. Anyone can be addicted to sugar or other things. And there are other factors beyond that too. It's very easy to show how it doesn't depend on type, randomly take 10 ESIs and 10 LSEs and see if your claim is true for all of them, you will find pretty fast that it won't hold up.

Real life example. The ESI ex I used to go out with was addicted to eating some crappy food when he emotionally felt shit. It just gave him some emotional reward. He definitely used oil and salt. I never ate to feel better, but I had a period of getting addicted to sugar. Then one day I decided to cut out some of it (for certain things) and I kept to that forever afterwards. I can easily say no to cravings when I decide to say no. But I also still am not a health nut. I'm sure your LSE could also do this if they wanted to. They just don't want to yet (or ever). Oh and another example, in the family, my IEI brother is the health nut, my ESI mom isn't really, she's more like me, she pays attention to some things and doesn't to others, doesn't make a big deal out of it like my brother does.

The only thing here that should be type related based on the theory at least is that for healthier eating, Se types will enforce some diet based on some decisions and Si types will go by what their body shows them. Though again it can't be that simple, I myself do both, I made certain decisions that I keep to and I also try to get information from my own body sometimes, though I do the former approach by default, it's what I more naturally pay attention to. (So for me the theory checks out well enough)

[Zero]

No lol, it's basic biology. Anyone can be addicted to sugar or other things. And there are other factors beyond that too. It's very easy to show how it doesn't depend on type, randomly take 10 ESIs and 10 LSEs and see if your claim is true for all of them, you will find pretty fast that it won't hold up.

Well unless one of us does the experiment I can say it will hold up and you can say it doesn't but it won't make a difference.

The only thing here that should be type related based on the theory at least is that for healthier eating, Se types will enforce some diet based on some decisions and Si types will go by what their body shows them. Though again it can't be that simple, I myself do both, I made certain decisions that I keep to and I also try to get information from my own body sometimes, though I do the former approach by default, it's what I more naturally pay attention to. (So for me the theory checks out well enough)

Yeah my LSI father is similar. I hear LSI and ESI say things like: "my body doesn't like medicine" "If I do X I will feel like Y" which I usually can't tell and unless an ESI is around to tell me what is better and healthier to eat and what I should do about my bodily needs, I leave it pretty messed up.

But what I mean by being type related is for example look at anime related to ESE and SEI, with pans in their hands, making delicious and good looking food, mixing many elements. delicious food usually contains more salt/sugar/oil and their Si enjoys that just like they enjoy much more than me when they look at colorful abstract art, while ESI for example, cook efficiently, put everything necessary in the food and try to make it simple. I read it in Stratiyevskaya's description of LIE ESI duality that LIEs like simple food and ESIs naturally cook this way.
But what I am talking about are the defaults. I have met depressed LSIs and ESIs who eat excess unhealthy food. I think @empineer can also help about this. she had a similar idea.

[Myst]

Well unless one of us does the experiment I can say it will hold up and you can say it doesn't but it won't make a difference.

Common sense is enough to know it's not gonna hold up. Simple reasoning, type just doesn't determine that many things, there are so many other things about people's functioning too.

Yeah my LSI father is similar. I hear LSI and ESI say things like: "my body doesn't like medicine" "If I do X I will feel like Y" which I usually can't tell and unless an ESI is around to tell me what is better and healthier to eat and what I should do about my bodily needs, I leave it pretty messed up.

But what I mean by being type related is for example look at anime related to ESE and SEI, with pans in their hands, making delicious and good looking food, mixing many elements. delicious food usually contains more salt/sugar/oil and their Si enjoys that just like they enjoy much more than me when they look at colorful abstract art, while ESI for example, cook efficiently, put everything necessary in the food and try to make it simple. I read it in Stratiyevskaya's description of LIE ESI duality that LIEs like simple food and ESIs naturally cook this way.
But what I am talking about are the defaults. I have met depressed LSIs and ESIs who eat excess unhealthy food. I think @empineer can also help about this. she had a similar idea.

Idealized defaults, ok, well, but in real life there are a lot more things so I see it pointless to think about idealized types.

As for delicious vs simple food, yah, I like both but I don't usually like to waste time on this so I make simple food myself. ESI mom also fits what you say. ESI ex doesn't though, he was willing to spend a bit more time with cooking. Both LIE dad and LIE ex liked to do special creations in the kitchen that were pretty goddamn delicious, however they did this infrequently. When they did do this they had such enthusiasm though... They were both into spicy stuff too, LIE ex took it to an extreme actually. My ESI mom on the other hand doesn't like spicy food. I do, but I don't care to take it to that extreme the LIE ex did it, I prefer to enjoy the taste of the food too while he would just take the hottest possible curry and ate extra chilis raw along with it and so on. I saw no point to that lol, I mean as a challenge I did it once to win something but otherwise why should I remove all taste from the food by making it the hottest possible?

Lol anyway, these examples are just to show how much variety there is that has zero to do with type. Socionics's abstract trend based function model just can't predict all these specifics.

[Zero]

Common sense is enough to know it's not gonna hold up. Simple reasoning, type just doesn't determine that many things, there are so many other things about people's functioning too.




Idealized defaults, ok, well, but in real life there are a lot more things so I see it pointless to think about idealized types.

As for delicious vs simple food, yah, I like both but I don't usually like to waste time on this so I make simple food myself. ESI mom also fits what you say. ESI ex doesn't though, he was willing to spend a bit more time with cooking. Both LIE dad and LIE ex liked to do special creations in the kitchen that were pretty goddamn delicious, however they did this infrequently. When they did do this they had such enthusiasm though... They were both into spicy stuff too, LIE ex took it to an extreme actually. My ESI mom on the other hand doesn't like spicy food. I do, but I don't care to take it to that extreme the LIE ex did it, I prefer to enjoy the taste of the food too while he would just take the hottest possible curry and ate extra chilis raw along with it and so on. I saw no point to that lol, I mean as a challenge I did it once to win something but otherwise why should I remove all taste from the food by making it the hottest possible?

Lol anyway, these examples are just to show how much variety there is that has zero to do with type. Socionics's abstract trend based function model just can't predict all these specifics.

Funny how my conversation with LSIs always ends in "the world doesn't work as ideally as you want it to work, you should open your eyes and see reality"
All the ESIs I have met hate spicy food and I have always loved it because it is challenging to eat and makes me look tough B)
And LOL to the infrequent LIE experiments in the kitchen since I also do that

[Adam Strange]

All the ESIs I have met hate spicy food and I have always loved it because it is challenging to eat and makes me look tough B)
And LOL to the infrequent LIE experiments in the kitchen since I also do that

I once decided to make a pumpkin pie for a family get-together, and I wanted a good crust, made from lard. However, I didn't have any lard, but I did have a lot of bacon, so I cooked the bacon and used the bacon fat to make the pie crust. It turned out flakey with a great consistency, but one thing went wrong. The Pumpkin Pie tasted like bacon.*

My father, son, and ex-wife were there. They are all SLI's and they just burst out laughing and refused to eat it. How could I screw up like that, they wondered? To me, it was just another day in Si-PoLR land.

*This is actually kind of great, but only if you are expecting it. I mean, I'll eat a salad if it has bacon on it.

[The Reality Denialist]

^Process needs some refinements.
How to extract bacon fat properly.
As an analytical chemist I'll say : Interesting.

[Tallmo]

Hmm, how do you mean it has to/wants to work independently if it's Base function?

The base wants to process things in it's own way. Not just copy things already done.

As for it being useless, you mean like the stereotypes of Si always lying on the couch enjoying the laziness? Because as an information element as defined in Socionics it does have a lot of actual use beyond just the standardized culture stuff. Tho' the Si with Fe could be seen as useless from a gamma Te pov, sure, lol

No, I don't mean laziness. That's just general weak ego. But unfortunately, many SEI have weak ego. I mean that base Si is often useless because most work that needs to be done in society does not need that amount of processing power that base Si could do. Much more useful is demonstrative Si, or creative Si for example, many cleaners are ESI and they may even enjoy it. And LSE can make things neat and tidy fast and efficient.

Fine craftsmanship and art are the exceptions. Here base Si is needed. SLI is in my opinion the type that can do something useful with Si as a craftsman. With the help of Te. SEIs can only make full use of their Si in art. But very few SEIs have got that talent. A few lucky ones.

Of course many SEIs work in Si related jobs like waiters etc. But that doesn't allow them to develop Si to its full potential. Imagine a LII who wasn't allowed to think in his job, just in very limited ways.

According to the theory Si base is dualizing with Ne, it would help it be more useful and be more integrated in society (true of any Base function with its Dual Seeking function). How would you say dualizing with Ne works for Si base?

Yes I definitely notice that when I'm with my dual my suppressed Si wakes up from its sleep.

[The Reality Denialist]

Usually SEI needs time and resources (house, yard etc) to fully utilize .
Sometimes you'll see decorated yards in unique ways and usually person behind it is SLI or SEI.

I think this is a very good example of it (although bit extreme). It is in Finnish but you can just look at the photos:
http://www.nokkala.net/

[Zero]

*This is actually kind of great, but only if you are expecting it. I mean, I'll eat a salad if it has bacon on it.

I would eat something which has something I like in it even if I don't like that something itself. (in your case bacon with salad, I've never eaten bacon!)
In my case what happens most often is burning food due to getting distracted and then ending up eating a banana. Or pouring salt twice or no salt at all. Or ignoring it is lunch time since I don't want to cook, until I am starving. Or the phases when I eat every unhealthy yummy thing followed by phases in which I go to gym every day and become a vegetarian ( I think also Si PoLR). Or throwing myself into ice cold part of pool just because "my body could do it" I think all that is related to not having balance or mercy, for your body.

[Zero]

Usually SEI needs time and resources (house, yard etc) to fully utilize .
Sometimes you'll see decorated yards in unique ways and usually person behind it is SLI or SEI.

I think this is a very good example of it (although bit extreme). It is in Finnish but you can just look at the photos:
http://www.nokkala.net/

So you mean Si is partly making your house look like kindergarten just kidding.

[empineer]

I think @empineer can also help about this. she had a similar idea.

The SEIs I have seen are able to talk about the taste of a food for hours. My SEI aunt even brought up the topic of a food she had made for me once many years ago and how I had liked it and which spice was it exactly that created that taste in combination to what. The fancy restaurants that offer foods with exotic tastes, very expensive, are the ones which can be managed by an SEI definitely!
ESIs I have seen on the other hand, talk about how "fair" a food is and how we must eat what to help the fairness, also for hours nonstop. They cook but preferably perhaps organic and healthy and stuff like that. SEI knows all about what makes them more healthy, perhaps more than anyone else. But they don't get obsessed by it being fair or not. They choose things like: OK I eat this tasty piece of bread everyday for lunch because I am a midday vegetarian. And at nights I eat delicious sausages I have personally made.
In my opinion, Si shows itself more in the way people dress, rather than cooking and eating. SEI wears unsexy, artistic, color matching designer clothes. ESI wears elegant, casual, and sexy enough. LSE wears professional, business-like and revealing enough and SLI wears expensive brands but still almost casual and not sexy. Si shows itself in that. I personally would like to have the opinions of an SEI and an LSE as my dressers if I was a celebrity for example

[empineer]

Base Si is usually poorly developed, I want to stress that. The types are not equal in todays society. People need work and challenges to develop the base. But if Si is developed then the persons attention is going in any direction where impressions come from. It's often useless and can seem weird.

It is a very interesting point. The SEIs I have known personally, I have a hard time accepting the word "the mediator" for them since they themselves are (perhaps unconsciously) the cause to many problems. Maybe it is only me seeing the psychological problems they have in the background of their head but they do fight really and badly with others, specially when they feel like their family is in danger (but in my opinion it is more of a hallucination). I am sure it is not the case with SEI and I might have only met the wrong ones but my Fi cannot relate to the way they react to problems with others. Your point therefore makes it a lot clearer. Perhaps they haven't developed their Si well enough, perhaps they have suppressed it all their lives.

[squark]

It was also mentioned in the thread that Ti is "information about how things tangibly relate to one another" I would put that as Ti . . . not simply tangibly sensed

When in doubt re. meaning of a word, check dictionary first rather than making assumptions.

tangible:

"2. real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary:
the tangible benefits of sunshine.
3.
definite; not vague or elusive:
no tangible grounds for suspicion."
quoted from dictionary.com

[Hope]

Usually SEI needs time and resources (house, yard etc) to fully utilize .
Sometimes you'll see decorated yards in unique ways and usually person behind it is SLI or SEI.

I think this is a very good example of it (although bit extreme). It is in Finnish but you can just look at the photos:
http://www.nokkala.net/

I'd say its lack of taste Si ... they look really creepy, it seems perfect for a serial killers bad show.





I mean...it says lets suffer together?!



No, thank you!

[Tallmo]

Usually SEI needs time and resources (house, yard etc) to fully utilize .
Sometimes you'll see decorated yards in unique ways and usually person behind it is SLI or SEI.

I think this is a very good example of it (although bit extreme). It is in Finnish but you can just look at the photos:
http://www.nokkala.net/

They can also be SEE or SLE hippies. Those extreme gardens look more like Se to me. On a side note. Do you know that finnish artist who makes cows out of parts from old cars. I think she might be SLE. Miina Äkkijyrkkä?

I have some examples of SEI friends and their house and garden . Will post later.

[The Reality Denialist]

She is alpha SF and I think SEI IMO. Matches well with some other SEIs I have known. Like I said it is extreme and overblown but I think it works as business model fairly well. Anyway SEI can have over indulgence in suggestive. Likes to hone in impressionistic data.