ESI-Se/LSI-Se who clashes with LIE ?

[JonMoon]

Hey guys, male here how recently got typed as ESI-Se, I've been looking into duality and theoretically I'm supposed to be with LIE and ILI, the issue is I can at times clash with these types, especially with regards to these "power struggles". A lot of LIE's have a natural ability to lead and draw people to them, which is cool, but I tend to have very specific ideas on how to progress in the future and desires which clash with this which can often lead to issues with who's choosing the path. Happens often with LIE males, not as much with the females, but they are extremely rare. Even when I am asked to describe an ideal partner, the image in my mind is an extrovert who's more emotional but still strong themselves. In terms of looks, and vibes the type that usually appears this way to me in a girl tends to be EIE. But that could be the effect they have on most people. Is it possible that I may be LSI. Both can appear to have strong Ti/Fi.

[Adam Strange]

LIE-Te 8w7 sx/so here.

If you are ESI-Se 6w7 sx/sp, then you are the same type as a female artist whom I know. I really like her (OK, full disclosure, I think she's perfect), but she seems to be perfectly happy to be off on her own. She only contacts me when she wants to sell some of her art. She's interested in social justice and in leading people somewhere, but she's not sure where. I think the main impediment to her and I getting closer is that we both naturally want to lead and we are interested in completely different fields. I have been really frustrated with her in the past because she doesn't seem to see that we would make a great couple, but truthfully, if she doesn't see it, then I'm probably the one who is delusional in thinking otherwise.
I can easily see that she, like a typical e6, doesn't trust authority, including me, and yet she seeks someone to believe in. She calls me for advice but doesn't want to merge. An e8 is basically perfect for an e6, if the e6 can learn to trust the e8. However, she is not inclined to make that effort now, and maybe not ever.
I view her as being slightly too independent or scattered for me but I could easily see her with an LIE-Ni. Someone who just nods and says "Yes, dear."

I also know a male ESI-Se, probably also 6w7 but I don't know his instinct stack, whose interests overlap mine. He's smart as hell and has complementary skills in the sense that he's really great at taking a task and finishing it well and on time, neither of which I'm good at. He and I tend to talk over each other sometimes because we both want to be on stage, although perhaps for slightly different reasons. I like the guy. I think he'd make a great general manager but he works for someone else.

For about three years, I dated an LSI-Ti 6w5 female, probably so/sx, and we got along great in private and not so well in public. She kept trying to see who was in charge, but my approach to relationships is that neither of us is in charge. But once she decided that I was in charge (!!!), she stopped trying to dominate me and things settled down to a less stressful situation. She is older than either of the two ESI's mentioned above and has been married and divorced, so she might have better skills at making a relationship work and more motivation for doing so. Honestly, if she were ESI, I'd probably be married right now. But her Ti/Fe clashes low level constantly with my Te/Fi, and she has very hierarchical views on social systems, while I am basically outside most social systems.

To address your question about clashing with LIE's, yes, ESI-Se's do tend to occupy some of the same space as LIE-Te's, and therefore can butt heads to some degree. I'd say the relationship between ESI-Se and LIE-Te sub-types is better for public and work situations, while an ESI-Se might prefer an LIE-Ni for long term intimate relationships. However, an LIE-Ni might seem a lot less appealing at work to an ESI-Se than an LIE-Te might.

There is a relationship calculator that you can use to get some sense of general compatibility between types and their subtypes. You can find it here: https://www.sociotype.com/tools/

I've been using it in real life for about five years, and I have to say, I find it remarkably accurate. It is even more accurate than you might expect a calculator which excludes enneagram and instincts might be, because the latter have less influence in relationships than Socionics type (IMO) and because those characterizations tend to track Sociotype in compatibility, to a great extent.

[Computer Loser]

Hey guys, male here how recently got typed as ESI-Se, I've been looking into duality and theoretically I'm supposed to be with LIE and ILI, the issue is I can at times clash with these types, especially with regards to these "power struggles". A lot of LIE's have a natural ability to lead and draw people to them, which is cool, but I tend to have very specific ideas on how to progress in the future and desires which clash with this which can often lead to issues with who's choosing the path. Happens often with LIE males, not as much with the females, but they are extremely rare. Even when I am asked to describe an ideal partner, the image in my mind is an extrovert who's more emotional but still strong themselves. In terms of looks, and vibes the type that usually appears this way to me in a girl tends to be EIE. But that could be the effect they have on most people. Is it possible that I may be LSI. Both can appear to have strong Ti/Fi.

With Fi, you can't really hide your internal feelings; they tend to show/express itself. LSI tend to be a little bit better at hiding their emotions compared to ESI.

Yes, the biggest difference between LSI and ESI is Ti/Fi; they can both appear similar on the surface as they both seek their "own truth." But to differentiate, ask yourself what's more important to you; your own Fi-personal values, or your own Ti-depersonalized impression? In other words, if you didn't exist, would the truth change?

LSI has a tendency to depersonalize and mechanize objects with their Ti.
ESI has a tendency to personalize or assign a living quality to objects with their Fi.

[Bethanyclaire]

There are some entjs who are not like the stereotype (I don’t mean stereotype in a bad way..) Just that there is a lot of variety. Some entjs will seem like enfj or even infp. Maybe women are more likely to be this way- I have an e3 female in mind who is doing a phd in literature.

[SGF]

Fucking gamma merchants! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Adam Strange]

Fucking gamma merchants! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

This notice is to inform you that, in accordance with our terms of agreement, we are revoking your borrowing privileges.

Please feel free to continue to exchange goods and services as personal gifts.

[Sol]

> recently got typed as ESI-Se

Until you'll type people near you and positively will check IR effects with them - you may mistake in own type and have no minimal skills to identify types of people.

> A lot of LIE's have a natural ability to lead and draw people to them

An abbility and general attitude to lead relates to strong functions only, as people are assured there. Other part of this is from "nontypes" reasons.
For example, Enneagram 8 types may match with any type, - they are predisposed to command people, what sometimes looks as inappropriate behavior and may contradict to common for their Jung type.

[JonMoon]

> I'm supposed to be with LIE and ILI

Until you'll type people near you and positively will check IR effects with them - you may mistake in own type and have no minimal skills to identify types of people.

> A lot of LIE's have a natural ability to lead and draw people to them

An abbility and general attitude to lead relates to strong functions only, as people are assured there. Other part of this is from "nontypes" reasons.
For example, Enneagram 8 types may match with any type, - they are predisposed to command people, what sometimes looks as inappropriate behavior and may contradict to common for their Jung type.

P.S.
I doubt you have T type.

Olimpia typed me, so you may be right she said i was ESI-Se. What makes you doubt T ? and I think I can gauge certain functions in others that might be compatible e.g Ni.

[Alomoes]

What a meme, gamma merchant. It's honestly the most aristocratic thing ever. ENTj is ENFj's lookalike. Those that look like ENFj are gonna be ENTj. Easy conceptual solution.

Sadly, I am basically managing a storefront, so the merchant thing can be vouched for in minor. But then so is ENFj/ESTp.
I'm seafood, and they're meat. They can run their department no problems, although ENFj has fun getting overworked sometimes, so I help him. I do too, but I don't have my dual to ask for help.

I'll go into it further. ESI is the opposite of "yes dear". Look up the victim/aggressor type romantic styles. What you have found sounds like victim, and you sound more like aggressor or caretaker. I am victim. I consider if it will work, and then slowly build up courage to ask. When I have enough courage, I ask. Aggressor shoots then scores then regrets it. This is because victim is related to Ni, which is about seeing the future. If you suck at seeing the future or imagining what will happen, you're gonna be unable to do this.

Victim would be basically me doing quite litterally anything for the person involved. And I can do quite litterally anything. I just need a person to ask me to. I assume the topic of this would be anything from, "why is John so angry" to "how do you do x" to "can you do x for me". Now, you'd think Fi would know why John is angry, but no, they'd know John is angry. I'd struggle and fall back upon the time tested trick of assume everything, but if I did, I'd know why. For example, if John was angry, it'd be because someone screwed him over or someone was screwing up. On my end, I would ask him/her to change over the laundry now. This would allow me to not have to get up at 4:40 in the morning.

My asking friend does this super hard. He asks me for a name, and I cannot say no. So I do. He universally does not like the name. However, I believe he appreciates the effort. He could very well be ESI, however doubt. We'll see.

TL;DR, I am "yes dear", by nature of being LIE, which values Fi, and thus does not wish to piss anyone off. Half of that is definitions, source wikisocion, half of that is extrapolation of definitions. Curious who disagrees with my definitions and extrapolation of definitions.

EIE is also yes dear, by nature of being Fe, and thus not pissing anyone off. Guess who curses more. I was surprised. If he doesn't explode, I won't be surprised, but I wouldn't be very surprised if he did. I have no idea why he would though, and expect him not to.

Final thing. You sound like me. ESI should be able to go with the flow on your ideas and/or implement them.

You should appreciate the wall of text, it took me like 40 minutes to write. I gotta do laundry. I'm not proof reading further.

[mfckrz]

Even when I am asked to describe an ideal partner, the image in my mind is an extrovert who's more emotional but still strong themselves. In terms of looks, and vibes the type that usually appears this way to me in a girl tends to be EIE. But that could be the effect they have on most people. Is it possible that I may be LSI. Both can appear to have strong Ti/Fi.

Both tend to be strong & emotional in their own characteristic way.

LIE's expression may be less public, but seems more innocent or awkward when they do it—which ESI will find endearingly sincere.

EIE can appear more open, but does so with greater polish/charm… which makes ESI skeptically apprehensive.

[Rebelondeck]

I knew a LIE(male)-ESI(female) couple who were together for 30+ years and had 2 children. She was a stay-at-home mom (a teacher when they met) and he was an executive who had to travel extensively so was only home at most 20% of the time; however, her extensive family said that they had a very loving marriage. When the LIE retired, he was systematically emasculated by the ESI because home was her realm and she only needed a prince consort, not a king. They separated within a year; he moved 500 km away and they haven't since communicated, but neither have they divorced.

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

I knew a LIE(male)-ESI(female) couple who were together for 30+ years and had 2 children. She was a stay-at-home mom (a teacher when they met) and he was an executive who had to travel extensively so was only home at most 20% of the time; however, her extensive family said that they had a very loving marriage. When the LIE retired, he was systematically emasculated by the ESI because home was her realm and she only needed a prince consort, not a king. They separated within a year; he moved 500 km away and they haven't since communicated, but neither have they divorced.

a.k.a. I/O

Divorce is extremely destructive to wealth, but that isn’t the only reason to stay married when separated.

I stayed married to my ex for several years after she moved out. My reasons were to minimize the shock of suddenly not being a couple after having been in a “together forever” mindset for many years. Her (the SLI) reasons for not divorcing might have been to enable her to not appear to be the “bad guy who broke her vows”, or she might have wanted the social advantages among her church friends of being married, or maybe there was some other reason, like avoiding the disapproval from my family, IDK.

I continued to wear a wedding ring for years during our separation and kept trying to get her back, until one day an IEI-Fe with whom I was having lunch asked me if I wanted her back, and I realized that I did not. I asked a female LIE what she thought about me starting to date again, and she said that no woman was going to touch me as long as I had that ring on.

I filed for divorce shortly thereafter.

The LIE was right. After the divorce and the ring came off, I continued going out with random women whom I’d meet and immediately got two feelers for marriage (from the wrong types) and an LSI girlfriend by accident and convenience.

So, @Rebelondeck, the story of your ESI-LIE couple may have more to come.

[Rebelondeck]

........So, @Rebelondeck, the story of your ESI-LIE couple may have more to come.

It's been 10 years so I doubt it but the financial aspect may be part of the reason why they haven't.

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

It's been 10 years so I doubt it but the financial aspect may be part of the reason why they haven't.

a.k.a. I/O

Fi is nothing if not faithful. I stayed in the relationship for ten years after the sex stopped, because I had no reason to leave. Lots of (bad) marriages are sexless. I made that vow “for better or worse.”

Read what Strat said about ESI’s staying married until their mate gives them a reason for divorce. Something about a husband at sea for years, IIRC.

Not all ESI’s and LIE’s are completely like that, but that’s the foundation upon which the house is built.

[Scarlett]

Even when I am asked to describe an ideal partner, the image in my mind is an extrovert who's more emotional but still strong themselves. In terms of looks, and vibes the type that usually appears this way to me in a girl tends to be EIE.

Or IEE right? Haha. Male ESIs are usually attracted to an IEE or EIE.

Don't worry, I'm a female LIE and if I had to describe my ideal partner, it'd be an introvert who's rational and strong, the type that usually appears this way to me in a guy is a LSI.

It's just human nature.

[Disturbed]

Or IEE right? Haha. Male ESIs are usually attracted to an IEE or EIE.

Don't worry, I'm a female LIE and if I had to describe my ideal partner, it'd be an introvert who's rational and strong, the type that usually appears this way to me in a guy is a LSI.

It's just human nature.

This male ESI really isn't. I've usually been most attracted to ILE-Ti followed by SLE-Ti. I'm not very fond of IEE and EIE, they're cool sometimes but definitely types I wouldn't want to wind up in a marriage with either. EIE are actually pretty damn strong and IEE are also good at saying no (although they also manuever outside of relationships differently and more than EIE by) changing their mind and leaving, but EIE are more demanding than ILE and SLE, so I don't want my ass railroaded. Neither do I want to dominate at all, although sometimes I have to have what I want or not have what I wish to not have, so I become forceful sometimes.

I'd want an ILE-Ti to help me with logical details, facts, and opportunities and to keep me entertained (I think they're way more entertaining than EIE and IEE), for some intensity, and for me to be sensually and sexually pleasured but that's not going to happen because I look terrible and my IQ is way too low for them.

LSI-Se could be super fucking success or failure for me but I don't think they or SLE-Ti are quite as awesome as ILE-Ti.

Never personally known, spent much time with any SEE, depends on how intellectual and emotionally stable they are, although I'd prefer a logical type and SEE can be pretty unyielding and unwilling to work with people from what I've read and understood about many of them.

LSE for me? No thanks, they're not very smart.

I enjoy energetic hyperactive but gentle, playful, and outgoing statics (Eps and Ijs) better than I enjoy Ejs. Ips are the worst for me, too emotionally unstable, not enough energy. ILIs and IEIs are too rigid and their mood swings and criticism, just damn. I'm usually cool with LSI-Se's criticism.

[nanashi]

LIEs are emotional. Read Gulenko's advice to LIE: better to not volcano when you're mad. Go regain your composure and return to express your emotions later.

LIE are also playful. They have 4D Ne, and they use Fe. They are known for persistently raising the spirits of their sometimes down ESI duals. LIE aren't particularly good with Fi, so they have to ask for it to be laid out there for them. 'What is the situation?'

It's one of the biggest differences when you're trying to tell apart ILI and LIE. The extrovert craves and thrives off camaraderie and a group and sense of loyalty and 'we're in this together', etc. ILI don't have the same needs or not to the same degree.

[eiemo]

LIE-Te 8w7 sx/so here.

If you are ESI-Se 6w7 sx/sp, then you are the same type as a female artist whom I know. I really like her (OK, full disclosure, I think she's perfect), but she seems to be perfectly happy to be off on her own. She only contacts me when she wants to sell some of her art. She's interested in social justice and in leading people somewhere, but she's not sure where. I think the main impediment to her and I getting closer is that we both naturally want to lead and we are interested in completely different fields. I have been really frustrated with her in the past because she doesn't seem to see that we would make a great couple, but truthfully, if she doesn't see it, then I'm probably the one who is delusional in thinking otherwise.
I can easily see that she, like a typical e6, doesn't trust authority, including me, and yet she seeks someone to believe in. She calls me for advice but doesn't want to merge. An e8 is basically perfect for an e6, if the e6 can learn to trust the e8. However, she is not inclined to make that effort now, and maybe not ever.
I view her as being slightly too independent or scattered for me but I could easily see her with an LIE-Ni. Someone who just nods and says "Yes, dear."

I also know a male ESI-Se, probably also 6w7 but I don't know his instinct stack, whose interests overlap mine. He's smart as hell and has complementary skills in the sense that he's really great at taking a task and finishing it well and on time, neither of which I'm good at. He and I tend to talk over each other sometimes because we both want to be on stage, although perhaps for slightly different reasons. I like the guy. I think he'd make a great general manager but he works for someone else.

For about three years, I dated an LSI-Ti 6w5 female, probably so/sx, and we got along great in private and not so well in public. She kept trying to see who was in charge, but my approach to relationships is that neither of us is in charge. But once she decided that I was in charge (!!!), she stopped trying to dominate me and things settled down to a less stressful situation. She is older than either of the two ESI's mentioned above and has been married and divorced, so she might have better skills at making a relationship work and more motivation for doing so. Honestly, if she were ESI, I'd probably be married right now. But her Ti/Fe clashes low level constantly with my Te/Fi, and she has very hierarchical views on social systems, while I am basically outside most social systems.

To address your question about clashing with LIE's, yes, ESI-Se's do tend to occupy some of the same space as LIE-Te's, and therefore can butt heads to some degree. I'd say the relationship between ESI-Se and LIE-Te sub-types is better for public and work situations, while an ESI-Se might prefer an LIE-Ni for long term intimate relationships. However, an LIE-Ni might seem a lot less appealing at work to an ESI-Se than an LIE-Te might.

There is a relationship calculator that you can use to get some sense of general compatibility between types and their subtypes. You can find it here: https://www.sociotype.com/tools/

I've been using it in real life for about five years, and I have to say, I find it remarkably accurate. It is even more accurate than you might expect a calculator which excludes enneagram and instincts might be, because the latter have less influence in relationships than Socionics type (IMO) and because those characterizations tend to track Sociotype in compatibility, to a great extent.

A possible ESI-Se 1w2 sp/sx. I could see how I would clash with a LIE-Te. I am quite forceful and I tend towards black-and-white thinking, so I would want things to be done a certain way (especially as a 1, lol). Both ESI-Ses and LIE-Tes are forceful people. Sometimes, my desire to get straight into action without much planning can baffle Ni egos.

Contrary to what some people might think about ESIs, I am more idealistic than pragmatic. My moral idealism and idealistic ambition may contrast the LIE-Te’s more pragmatic view of the world. Also, I am sometimes criticized for “not making sense” by a SEI that I know.

[Adam Strange]

A possible ESI-Se 1w2 sp/sx. I could see how I would clash with a LIE-Te. I am quite forceful and I tend towards black-and-white thinking, so I would want things to be done a certain way (especially as a 1, lol). Both ESI-Ses and LIE-Tes are forceful people. Sometimes, my desire to get straight into action without much planning can baffle Ni egos.

Contrary to what some people might think about ESIs, I am more idealistic than pragmatic. My moral idealism and idealistic ambition may contrast the LIE-Te’s more pragmatic view of the world. Also, I am sometimes criticized for “not making sense” by a SEI that I know.

I think that clashes can happen when two people have areas of overlapping responsibility, and this can occur in a Dual pair when one or both has been undualized for so long that they take up the other's functions just to survive.

Lol at the SEI who thinks you "don't make sense." That's the normal opinion of opposite-Quadra members. I knew an ILE who once told me that he thought that I really didn't understand anything about what was really going on, and yet I always seemed to come out ahead.

Funny how that works out.

[Tarnished]

From my experience, some of my ExI friends do not really like LxEs too much. Usually the LxEs try to get the ExIs's attention, but the ExIs quickly get annoy with the LxEs's low Fi, see them as "too childish", "regid". I dont' understand why since I've always admired LxEs's strong Te and don't care much about their Fi.

Dual between two judger seem doesn't work very well

[Finaplex]

I knew a LIE(male)-ESI(female) couple who were together for 30+ years and had 2 children. She was a stay-at-home mom (a teacher when they met) and he was an executive who had to travel extensively so was only home at most 20% of the time; however, her extensive family said that they had a very loving marriage. When the LIE retired, he was systematically emasculated by the ESI because home was her realm and she only needed a prince consort, not a king. They separated within a year; he moved 500 km away and they haven't since communicated, but neither have they divorced.

a.k.a. I/O

wow.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

I knew a LIE(male)-ESI(female) couple who were together for 30+ years and had 2 children. She was a stay-at-home mom (a teacher when they met) and he was an executive who had to travel extensively so was only home at most 20% of the time; however, her extensive family said that they had a very loving marriage. When the LIE retired, he was systematically emasculated by the ESI because home was her realm and she only needed a prince consort, not a king. They separated within a year; he moved 500 km away and they haven't since communicated, but neither have they divorced.

a.k.a. I/O

Lol. I have a difficult time imagining this couple as ESI/LIE. Seems like a shallow, superficial relationship that could never satisfy an ESI. I don't want to speak on LIEs in this context, as they would vary...some would be fine but deep down need/want more, some would be unattuned to the fact that they need more, etc etc it's best not to generalize...but for ESI, relationships are too centric to their lives for this to ever be something they could be happy with.

[Metamorph]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Socionics is fake
What about you?

[FDG]

I knew a LIE(male)-ESI(female) couple who were together for 30+ years and had 2 children. She was a stay-at-home mom (a teacher when they met) and he was an executive who had to travel extensively so was only home at most 20% of the time; however, her extensive family said that they had a very loving marriage. When the LIE retired, he was systematically emasculated by the ESI because home was her realm and she only needed a prince consort, not a king. They separated within a year; he moved 500 km away and they haven't since communicated, but neither have they divorced.

a.k.a. I/O

Strats wrote something similar in one of her description - basically that LIEs have to be outside, if they start being homely it doesn't work anymore since it's not how they're supposed to be. Actually your LIE guy did exactly that - he moved away to do his own thing and since they are still married, technically he did the right thing.

I know a "old" LIE-ESI couple (in their 80s) the LIE worked until he was 75, now is almost blind, still otherwise in good spirits and health, he goes around and around in the neighborhood meeting people and walking around just so that he doesn't...stay at home lol.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Yes, the initial clash is there. I will only speak from the ESI perspective and omit LIE's, as I would prefer to say nothing than risk giving an inaccurate depiction of a perspective that is not my own.

ESI looks for things in the ethical realm that the LIE usually lacks upon initially meeting. She has to learn that she must guide/teach the LIE in this department. Once she realizes the LIE is actually (generally) receptive in the relational and ethical realm, she realizes she just has to be patient, understanding, and kind, and that her initial rejection of him is uncalled for.

There can be power struggles, but if ESI manages to guide the relationship well, that becomes more of a positive thing than a negative, after some time and effort they both invest into the relationship. They find ways to work through problems, compromise, etc. and the power struggles are mostly just kinky sexy times. At times, ESI must use Se force behind Fi, passionately stand her ground on a matter, etc. ESI guides the relationship, while LIE guides the Te aspects of life plans which ESI struggles with. She may have to defend her autonomy until he learns where the lines are (clumsy Se HA). Her being more relations-minded, gamma (democratic, valuing fairness, etc), and with higher Se, a healthier ESI knows better than to be too domineering.

For the most part, LIE/ESI don't experience power struggles, simply because the areas they dominate are complimentary rather than competitive. What she dominates is what he seeks help with, and what he dominates is what she seeks help with. She wants the reigns in relations, and he does not, because he isn't confident in handling those matters. He is attracted to her partly because she dominates this. Vice-versa, she is attracted to him partly because he holds the reigns in matters she is not confident or comfortable handling. There is a symbiotic exchange between strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other, not a battle for domination. That's literally the entire concept behind what Socionics duality is.

Exchange pronouns as you see fit, I wrote it this way because I zoomed out from 3rd person view of my own experiences (the ones that align with the theory, so that i would be only providing that which is founded upon that and not merely projecting) in order to write this.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Dominating home/work etc is not part of Socionics duality, thats more of a personal issue in individuals...she dominates Fi relational matters, he dominates Te matters. That only shows up with some degree of personal intimacy.

[chriscorey]

Oooo I like this game

roses are red
violets are blue
your PolR is showing
what am I to you?

[spacious]

I know a "old" LIE-ESI couple (in their 80s) the LIE worked until he was 75, now is almost blind, still otherwise in good spirits and health, he goes around and around in the neighborhood meeting people and walking around just so that he doesn't...stay at home lol.

soo cute 😭