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Thread: 3 improved ways to counter depression (panksepp video)

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    Default 3 improved ways to counter depression (panksepp video)

    I love Panksepp's work, and look forward to these three measures being readily available in the usa.
    Note: the video first gives a summary of the 7 emotional systems that have been mapped in the brain, then goes into which 3 are related to depression, then 3 ways of countering depression by activating those 3 emotional systems. Not his best video, but still a useful introduction for those who might be interested in learning more.

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    I don't think the answer is to be fully found in animals or indeed neuroscience.

    For sure some depression is biological.

    But there's another type of depression, caused by our outlooks on life and how we interact with it, that's the part we can work on ourselves, ie, someone who gets angry a lot, taking a pill isn't the answer, but the answer is finding out why they're angry. If someone's angry, then they can overcome hatred with love, for instance, often i'll just think about something else rather than dwelling on stuff, so if you change how you think about things then you will be your own neuroscientist, as this will change the chemistry of the brain itself.

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    Jaak Panksepp is a legend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    I don't think the answer is to be fully found in animals or indeed neuroscience.

    For sure some depression is biological.

    But there's another type of depression, caused by our outlooks on life and how we interact with it, that's the part we can work on ourselves, ie, someone who gets angry a lot, taking a pill isn't the answer, but the answer is finding out why they're angry. If someone's angry, then they can overcome hatred with love, for instance, often i'll just think about something else rather than dwelling on stuff, so if you change how you think about things then you will be your own neuroscientist, as this will change the chemistry of the brain itself.
    (TLDR at the bottom)

    The emotional systems that Panksepp has mapped out via neuroscience experiments are shared by every mammal (humans are mammals), and some by other animals. Using animals to help form our understandings of human emotions helps to remove philosophical and theoretical underpinnings that have caused so many problems in the history of psychology, sociology, etc. It also helps remove the influences of higher order interpretations that distort perceptions of what's going on.

    These fundamental emotional systems underlie our higher emotions and our thoughts/cognitions. The emotional systems drive those higher emotions/cognitions. And looking at the emotional systems and what they affect helps cut out pseudo-science psychology and new age crap.


    For example, regarding depression:

    The emotional system of Separation Distress/Panic (think a child and mother suddenly parted, the child lost, the mother desperately trying to find the child, both calling out to each other in desperation/panic) is related to one aspect of depression. When we feel unsupported by our environment, whether it be lack of physical support, lack of psychological support, or lack of social support, we'll feel distressed. In milder forms it would be interpreted as sadness, in more extreme forms it might be panic (where we are still actively calling out or trying to get support), or depression (the deactivation of our Seeking system (see below)). People usually DO initially try to make connections, seek contacts, find someone to talk things over with, find someone to hopefully help their situation, etc. That's part of the initial activation of the Panic system...the drive to reconnect with one's caregivers/nurturers. But if the environment keeps rejecting the person, invalidating the person, and/or beating the person down,...when the panicked cries for reconnection aren't answered, the person starts to shut down. Like babies dieing from not being held, comforted, touched.

    In fact, your example regarding an angry person's depression is actually referring to the Panic system being activated. It's referring to how the angry person's environment isn't being supportive/nurturing in some way. So they fight to force their environment to nurture them, but if the environment keeps rejecting the person's needs, then the Panic system gets more and more activated, which might lead to more and more violence from the angry person....or they collapse and give up (deactivating the Seeking system, see below). "Love" is basically providing the support, nurturance, and connection that the angry person has been calling out for.


    The emotional system of Seeking is what drives us to interact with our environment, to be curious and explore resource options, to take action to obtaining resources, etc. When the Seeking system isn't activated, the person lacks complete desire to DO anything. This is when you have depressed people sleeping all the time, hiding out in dark rooms (avoidance of stimulus), isolating themselves (thereby furthering the emotional damages of Separation Distress). If a person's Seeking system isn't activated, then they have no drive to interact with life, no drive to interact with the environment, no drive to interact with other people. This means no drive to work on themselves nor their environment, no drive to change anything.

    Those two systems (Distress/Panic and Seeking) can combine into a downward spiral.


    Understanding how these systems work helps to understand the underlying drives going on, and an idea of what's triggering those drives (or not triggering them). Understanding that leads us to finding optional ways of assisting the person; whether that be as simple as
    * 'loving' the person (nurturing them),
    * temporarily popping a pill until the person's environment can be altered enough that they don't need to resort to the pill anymore,
    * or even determining if there's a biological malfunction that would need special considerations/efforts.

    So yes, I agree, sometimes you can take a top down approach, and sometimes you need to take a bottom up approach as well.
    But the top down approach will be hit and miss if you don't understand the underlying drives influencing the behaviors and the person's cognitions of their situation.


    TLDR: And finally, the video was referring to depressions that were reaching the point of suicidal ideation (or in your anger example, homicidal ideation). At that point, just introducing "love" isn't going to magically prevent the potential suicide/homicide(s). Nor would talk therapy.
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    Hi anndelise, I thought a bit before I answered this, because I think science - and research, psychology etc is cool, and I have an interest and affinity for it, but my opinion is that certain parts of 'atheist psychology' for want of an expression, misses out on key ingredients, that is, it reduces humans to the level of animals (and raises animals to the level of humans).

    That is, we may therefore be coming from different perspectives on this. There's a reason why I think - if you want to look at it purely from an atheistic view, that topics such as religion, spirituality exist, it's because we as people are hardwired for such things. Trying to remove this aspect is a denial of how humans want to live - as they have lived since we know from the inception of society, and to remove such a key facet of people from research makes the research to me, lacking in scope.

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Using animals to help form our understandings of human emotions helps to remove philosophical and theoretical underpinnings that have caused so many problems in the history of psychology, sociology, etc. It also helps remove the influences of higher order interpretations that distort perceptions of what's going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise

    These fundamental emotional systems underlie our higher emotions and our thoughts/cognitions. The emotional systems drive those higher emotions/cognitions. And looking at the emotional systems and what they affect helps cut out pseudo-science psychology and new age crap.
    Animals are cool, but animals don't feel the need for something bigger than themselves, some purpose, the 'God' factor if you will, so in this regards, of saying we are animals, all mammals etc, is missing out a key and vital difference.

    Sooner or later, the 'God' question has to be addressed. If you take for instance recovery groups (where depression, poor emotional regulating/processing etc are common place), it's addressed eventually, ie, the 'higher power' as one of the 12 steps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    Hi anndelise, I thought a bit before I answered this, because I think science - and research, psychology etc is cool, and I have an interest and affinity for it, but my opinion is that certain parts of 'atheist psychology' for want of an expression, misses out on key ingredients, that is, it reduces humans to the level of animals (and raises animals to the level of humans).

    That is, we may therefore be coming from different perspectives on this. There's a reason why I think - if you want to look at it purely from an atheistic view, that topics such as religion, spirituality exist, it's because we as people are hardwired for such things. Trying to remove this aspect is a denial of how humans want to live - as they have lived since we know from the inception of society, and to remove such a key facet of people from research makes the research to me, lacking in scope.

    Animals are cool, but animals don't feel the need for something bigger than themselves, some purpose, the 'God' factor if you will, so in this regards, of saying we are animals, all mammals etc, is missing out a key and vital difference.

    Sooner or later, the 'God' question has to be addressed. If you take for instance recovery groups (where depression, poor emotional regulating/processing etc are common place), it's addressed eventually, ie, the 'higher power' as one of the 12 steps.
    I can appreciate that we come from different assumptions and thus won't agree.

    (As an aside, I'd propose that our understandings of 'God' comes from a combination of
    * Theory of Mind applied to interpreting natural phenomena, (eg how humans interpret rainbows as god's promise, natural disasters as god's punishment, or sudden deaths/disabilities as part of god's unknowable plan)
    * and the Distress+Seeking systems driving the person to seek connection/nurturance from something beyond their immediate environment. (a desire for a nurturing/caring 'higher power')
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I can appreciate that we come from different assumptions and thus won't agree.

    (As an aside, I'd propose that our understandings of 'God' comes from a combination of
    * Theory of Mind applied to interpreting natural phenomena, (eg how humans interpret rainbows as god's promise, natural disasters as god's punishment, or sudden deaths/disabilities as part of god's unknowable plan)
    * and the Distress+Seeking systems driving the person to seek connection/nurturance from something beyond their immediate environment. (a desire for a nurturing/caring 'higher power')
    I don't know, it might do.

    For myself, I spent a fair amount of time looking into psychology, there was one guy, Gabor Mate, who I thought had some excellent insights into the why, but they all seemed to fall short at the 'what to do about it'. My personal answer came about since some searching, which was to realize myself as a scummy human, and accept that Jesus died for me because of that. It worked on two factors: I had the confidence to face and accept myself, and, knowing I was loved, I was able to face myself, have hope and optimism, and grow to heal.

    I don't think neuroscience provides such a simple yet brilliant tool.

    My intention isn't to 'convert' you or anything, i'm just explaining what worked for me. I don't go to Church or anything like that, but I try to be an active Christian, for me it's more Spiritual than organized, ie hierarchical religious organizations etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    I don't know, it might do.

    For myself, I spent a fair amount of time looking into psychology, there was one guy, Gabor Mate, who I thought had some excellent insights into the why, but they all seemed to fall short at the 'what to do about it'. My personal answer came about since some searching, which was to realize myself as a scummy human, and accept that Jesus died for me because of that. It worked on two factors: I had the confidence to face and accept myself, and, knowing I was loved, I was able to face myself, have hope and optimism, and grow to heal.

    I don't think neuroscience provides such a simple yet brilliant tool.

    My intention isn't to 'convert' you or anything, i'm just explaining what worked for me. I don't go to Church or anything like that, but I try to be an active Christian, for me it's more Spiritual than organized, ie hierarchical religious organizations etc.
    I didn't get the sense that you were trying to convert me.
    Hopefully you don't think I'm trying to convert you either. I think my proposal could be argued by believers as being "proof" of intentional design by a nurturing higher power. That the opioid release that occurs from thinking oneself is loved and wanted when praying or thinking about being saved from an eternity of torment was a design plan to help us feel loved when we think of God/jesus. Or that we developed our Theory of Mind as part of God's way of helping us come to know God.

    (the only time i have a problem with religious beliefs is when they're being forced onto others. I don't see you as doing that. )

    ps, i'm glad you found something that worked for you!!

    edited to add: btw, I think you're right in this type of case that believing a higher power cares for you is probably more affective effective than thinking 'my distress system is being activated so I need to find a way to nurture myself'.
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    3 ways to ward off depression:

    1. Avoid idleness. Make sure that you're engaged in a range of activities - a job, volunteering, hobbies.
    2. Get outside and move around. Exercise regularly, travel out of the city and explore new places.
    3. Reject perfectionism. If you take pride in each small step forward, you will criticize yourself (and others) a lot less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    3 ways to ward off depression:

    1. Avoid idleness. Make sure that you're engaged in a range of activities - a job, volunteering, hobbies.
    2. Get outside and move around. Exercise regularly, travel out of the city and explore new places.
    3. Reject perfectionism. If you take pride in each small step forward, you will criticize yourself (and others) a lot less.
    The Seeking system drives the first two on your list. It's nearly a guarantee that a person isn't going to do those with an unactivated Seeking system. Though they can perhaps assist in forestalling some depressive episodes.

    All three may help reduce activation of the Distress/Panic System IF the person perceives such activities as nurturing as opposed to busywork, chores, or just yet more crap being piled onto them.

    None of them are quick enough to work when a person, for whatever reason, has reached the suicidal/homicidal ideation level of depression.


    (On a personal note, I walk, a LOT. Pacing around my neighborhood block. Everyone recognizes me as that crazy old lady walking even in the rain. Unfortunately I can't do much walking at all these days, and that's making it hard to manage some of my own symptoms. I'm not suicidal, but when those thoughts entire my mind, I see them as a sign that I've been heading into a depression. Thankfully I don't have the Distress/Panic related type depressions.)
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