Piraha - The ultimate Alpha SF culture

[The Reality Denialist]

This culture sounds very alpha SF. They laughed at the concept of suicide and religion (a church was interpreted as a place where people kill you), preferred to have multiple sex partners (males and females), took care of others, past and future meant very little - presence is what mattered, no numbers, they worked very little and spent their time on a beach, built flimsy houses and laughed when those collapsed. If this is not the alpha SF grindset I do not know what else qualifies as such.

[Metamorph]

What about the part where they're hallucinating spirits all the time and they swap names with the spirits they hallucinate at various points throughout their lives? They are more directly bicameral than virtually anyone else on the planet. A traditional evangelist would see them as the stereotypical devil-worshipping savages becoming possessed. Jung himself in his racism would see them as Ni incarnate.

[The Reality Denialist]

What about the part where they're hallucinating spirits all the time and they swap names with the spirits they hallucinate at various points throughout their lives? They are more directly bicameral than virtually anyone else on the planet. A traditional evangelist would see them as the stereotypical devil-worshipping savages becoming possessed. Jung himself in his racism would see them as Ni incarnate.

Probably not. This mindset is absolutely backwards Ni. As Jung and von Franz would probably say: When you are worried about, let's say, upcoming weather conditions you turn to Ni prophets (less differentiated Ni but still).

[Metamorph]

Probably not. This mindset is absolutely backwards Ni. As Jung and von Franz would probably say: When you are worried about, let's say, upcoming weather conditions you turn to Ni prophets (less differentiated Ni but still).

...Hallucinating things yourself is a bit different than turning to someone else to predict events.

[The Reality Denialist]

...Hallucinating things yourself is a bit different than turning to someone else to predict events.

If your entire existence won't put any emphasis on timely happenings, Ni is simply not your priority.Whatever they used and perhaps enjoyed having is also a way to pass time and have new experiences.

[godslave]

I can't conceive a culture without a narrative and /or spirituality relative to the cult of the dead. I mean an archaic form of spirituality and belief. The Shaman is an Universal archetype and there is no reason to believe that the Piraha don't have their version of genesis explaining the cyclical nature of observable phenomena. The underlying tone of that conference is that our state of nature is not as determined as some have thought and it also conveys a "look at us without Jesus" kind of thing presented as an illustration of the legitimacy of evangelisation seeing in it a necessary and beneficent Promethean endeavor. Btw reminding us that the quasi extinction of Indigenous people of Americas were for the most part a consequence of the spread of diseases and not from systematic massacres. The reference to the biblical flood and underlying meaning that it was the will of God was obvious. At the beginning there were Piraha and their life was tohu va bohu and the evangelist said : Let there be light ! It seems like for certain people the events are indeed felt as Backwards Ni first they experience the Apocalypse and then the survivors learn about Genesis !

[The Reality Denialist]

Well, the functional basis of Jungian typology as I see is the differentiation to put it simply. As such I suppose there could be a place and time where 8 functions are not enough. But are humans capable of doing it? The minimization of energy is the universal tendency found in nature. Some climates favored co-operation combined with differentiation and then selective pressure also comes along. If there is no need for this and that, why do it in the first place?

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

u are such a stereotypical EIE whore u cant fool me thats what this is all about right

guy is EII wife is also some Ne ego


alpha SFs are often the reason someone gets shamed
edit: nvm guy is LIE, the tribe may be Ni

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Not sure, most alpha SFs I know would have a nervous breakdown if their house collapsed- they wouldn't laugh about it. Although I guess you could fanwank that to living in a neurotic hyper-competitive Gamma culture and that is more neurotic American society than other places.

[The Reality Denialist]

Not sure, most alpha SFs I know would have a nervous breakdown if their house collapsed- they wouldn't laugh about it. Although I guess you could fanwank that to living in a neurotic hyper-competitive Gamma culture and that is more neurotic American society than other places.

Eh, the reason for taking it lightly is that
#1 they can rely on their tribe to take care of them.
#2 their investment time wise to house building is low.
#2.1 it is sort of a cultural norm so Fe can take it lightly
#2.2 their comfort is guaranteed because the span of time shows it.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

If your entire existence won't put any emphasis on timely happenings, Ni is simply not your priority.Whatever they used and perhaps enjoyed having is also a way to pass time and have new experiences.

Si and Ni tribes practice agroculture. the piraha instead are hunter gatherers. they dont need to pay attention to time.

[Tallmo]

What about the part where they're hallucinating spirits all the time and they swap names with the spirits they hallucinate at various points throughout their lives? They are more directly bicameral than virtually anyone else on the planet. A traditional evangelist would see them as the stereotypical devil-worshipping savages becoming possessed. Jung himself in his racism would see them as Ni incarnate.

In primitive societies consciousness is still on a lower level and the psyche is projected into the environment in the form of spirits etc. Then as consciousness grows the psyche is introjected from the environment. You can also see this phenomenon in modern societies how the magical world of childhood disappears as the child grows up. So I don't think this is really Ni, as Ni is a specific function and not some general undeveloped state.

[Tallmo]

This culture sounds very alpha SF. They laughed at the concept of suicide and religion (a church was interpreted as a place where people kill you), preferred to have multiple sex partners (males and females), took care of others, past and future meant very little - presence is what mattered, no numbers, they worked very little and spent their time on a beach, built flimsy houses and laughed when those collapsed. If this is not the alpha SF grindset I do not know what else qualifies as such.

From what I've read I've learned that primitive societies have less developed types, or they are more sensing types. But generally undifferentiated. They don't have education and professional jobs like we do were we can bring the functions to a high degree of differentiation. So this is not necessarily Alpha SF but just a primitive mindset. But probably more focus on sensing so you could be right about that.

I think von Franz also talks about this, how modern farmers have less differentiated types, because they don't specialize but do lots of things and the work is more physical.

[The Reality Denialist]

From what I've read I've learned that primitive societies have less developed types, or they are more sensing types. But generally undifferentiated. They don't have education and professional jobs like we do were we can bring the functions to a high degree of differentiation. So this is not necessarily Alpha SF but just a primitive mindset. But probably more focus on sensing so you could be right about that.

I think von Franz also talks about this, how modern farmers have less differentiated types, because they don't specialize but do lots of things and the work is more physical.

I think they have differentiated themselves towards that mindset as I pointed. As such like I said 8 functions is not the holy truth. It is just the representation of western society at this moment. So this alpha sensory mindset just dominates and possibly makes evolutive selection and repression towards other means as it is not a good choice go other way.

[on a peaceful hiatus]

I don't think alpha's develop any kind of societies. They simply exist in what is already there

[Squirrel]

I don't think alpha's develop any kind of societies. They simply exist in what is already there

Alpha has Ti ( which seeks to make systems ) and Fe ( which cares about others in a wider range than Fi ) , add Si's desire for a comfortable place, and Ne's random thoughts

What will prevent them from making societies ? Especially if the society doesn't fit Si's requirements of life and impedes Ne's freedom

[on a peaceful hiatus]

Se valuing types can fight over who possesses the biggest piece of land. I just want to chill. The other types 'build' societies.

[Squirrel]

Se valuing types can fight over who possesses the biggest piece of land. I just want to chill. The other types 'build' societies.

3 points :

1- You , not your type and your Quadra

2- Power struggles and military coups are not the only way to create a societies (this is only if the regime is dictatorship and cannot be overthrown by democracy).
However, in a society that is not under dictatorial rule, it doesn't require a struggle, only an entry into the elections

3- Even in the dictatorial case, ESE has 4D Se and SEI has 3D Se , they can use it completely as you use Ni , just because a function is unvalued it doesn't mean that it cannot be used

[godslave]

Imho the first "interrogation" in the human mind even before the acquisition of language is a wordless "Is it eatable ?" and then after having learned a thing or two by experiencing and interacting with the environment and incidentally after having put in the mouth almost all the objects light enough to be carried to the said destination, another interrogation comes to the mind : "can it eat me ?" This pattern is Universal in every baby human being. As we grow in physiological maturity there are abilities inherent to our species that we develop and other that we learn from our caregivers and other members of the group. The awakening to symbolic representation (induced by language), the artistic expression like painting and creative thought processes are also Universal and inherent to our species.

The idea of primitive societies doesn't mean that the people who live is those societies are primitive human beings, they are homo sapiens sapiens like the rest of the homo family on earth. Remember that a lot of people from those societies and tribes chose to live that way while being fully aware of modern societies. Here is the thing, as long as they have the same brain as us, they have the same perceptions and Judgement as the rest of human being. That's obvious but worth mentioning within the socionics or Jungian paradigm. Information elements and Jungian psychological types are or are not. There is no reason to believe that a so called primitive society have a different or primitive psyche that doesn't make sense (or I don't understand ). Se comes with Ni, Ne comes with Si, Fe comes with Ti and Fi comes with Te, all those aspects/information elements or functions are intrinsically part of us according to the theory if you are a human being then you have a type. Even Neanderthals might have types ! The thing is that Ni (/Se) is a survival imperative without it we wouldn't be able to survive since the beginning of humanity. Like I said, It all comes down to those two questions : "can I eat it ?" and "Can it eat me ?" (I'm kidding but you know what I mean ahaah !). Anyway, note that I don't know what I'm talking about I'm just rambling !

[on a peaceful hiatus]

Ne isn't 'random' ideas, it's a state of mind that doesn't really give you strong convictions about how societies should work. Se valuing types have these, and they enforce their view one way or another. Ne makes you pursue something for years and then you just give it up for something else on a whim. Even Alpha sensing types mainly apply Se in that they make sure they have a job that provides for the family, even if it is a repetitive one. Whether or not you believe in religion is your ideology. I don't care much about it, but I also don't feel like making fun of people that do care about it, it's whatever.

@godslave: I would let an Se valuing type figure out if I can eat it

[timber]

I don't get the premise?

One ESE I know spends hours and hours watching asain people build clever tribe huts and pools using their hands, and posting on YouTube.

The other ESE female I know is a high ranking Chief officer of a large cultural Arts center and theatre, and would probably be shocked to see their house blow down in the wind. Te role is scary.

Alpha SFs I think it's important to keep in mind are "space creating" types. The only working difference between them and delta STs is delta STs go for more convenient logistics in dwellings..whereas SF go for comfort, convenience, "affect" (paintings, flowers, nick naknacks s if inclined, toys, bedding sheets, floor rugs, house plants and if basic "live, love, laugh".)

The caveat here is both sets of STs and SFs can be low ambition example: nesting, hoarding, mess.

So, a SLI and a SEI might both inhabit a trailer or RV, yet one will have Fe influences vs Te influences.

[timber]

Imho the first "interrogation" in the human mind even before the acquisition of language is a wordless "Is it eatable ?" and then after having learned a thing or two by experiencing and interacting with the environment and incidentally after having put in the mouth almost all the objects light enough to be carried to the said destination, another interrogation comes to the mind : "can it eat me ?" This pattern is Universal in every baby human being. As we grow in physiological maturity there are abilities inherent to our species that we develop and other that we learn from our caregivers and other members of the group. The awakening to symbolic representation (induced by language), the artistic expression like painting and creative thought processes are also Universal and inherent to our species.

The idea of primitive societies doesn't mean that the people who live is those societies are primitive human beings, they are homo sapiens sapiens like the rest of the homo family on earth. Remember that a lot of people from those societies and tribes chose to live that way while being fully aware of modern societies. Here is the thing, as long as they have the same brain as us, they have the same perceptions and Judgement as the rest of human being. That's obvious but worth mentioning within the socionics or Jungian paradigm. Information elements and Jungian psychological types are or are not. There is no reason to believe that a so called primitive society have a different or primitive psyche that doesn't make sense (or I don't understand ). Se comes with Ni, Ne comes with Si, Fe comes with Ti and Fi comes with Te, all those aspects/information elements or functions are intrinsically part of us according to the theory if you are a human being then you have a type. Even Neanderthals might have types ! The thing is that Ni (/Se) is a survival imperative without it we wouldn't be able to survive since the beginning of humanity. Like I said, It all comes down to those two questions : "can I eat it ?" and "Can it eat me ?" (I'm kidding but you know what I mean ahaah !). Anyway, note that I don't know what I'm talking about I'm just rambling !

I think it's worth considering these primative people now in certain regions might have ancestors that developed ancient civilizations lost to time.

[timber]

3 points :

1- You , not your type and your Quadra

2- Power struggles and military coups are not the only way to create a societies (this is only if the regime is dictatorship and cannot be overthrown by democracy).
However, in a society that is not under dictatorial rule, it doesn't require a struggle, only an entry into the elections

3- Even in the dictatorial case, ESE has 4D Se and SEI has 3D Se , they can use it completely as you use Ni , just because a function is unvalued it doesn't mean that it cannot be used

Many, many modern organizations are run by alpha SFs.

It's laughable to think they are all in some proverbial lala land just singing and dancing.

[timber]

Se valuing types can fight over who possesses the biggest piece of land. I just want to chill. The other types 'build' societies.

Wow you have obviously not met ambitious delta STs.

I know at least a dozen LSE land owners with properties covered in millions of dollars worth of equipment, shops and outbuildings, a half dozen new vehicles, and several rental properties around the province.

[Squirrel]

Wow you have obviously not met ambitious delta STs.

I know at least a dozen LSE land owners with properties covered in millions of dollars worth of equipment, shops and outbuildings, a half dozen new vehicles, and several rental properties around the province.

He probably met them but typed them as Ni bases because in his opinion only valuing Se types cares about such things

Poor guy, he hadn't heard of something called Enneagram that moves a person and shapes his motives

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

they live like children of nature thats as close as you can get to Ne

[timber]

He probably met them but typed them as Ni bases because in his opinion only valuing Se types cares about such things

Poor guy, he hadn't heard of something called Enneagram that moves a person and shapes his motives

Ambitions are not type related. I agree.

How a person realizes their ambitions, THAT might be type related.

[Squirrel]

Ne isn't 'random' ideas, it's a state of mind that doesn't really give you strong convictions about how societies should work. Se valuing types have these, and they enforce their view one way or another. Ne makes you pursue something for years and then you just give it up for something else on a whim. Even Alpha sensing types mainly apply Se in that they make sure they have a job that provides for the family, even if it is a repetitive one. Whether or not you believe in religion is your ideology. I don't care much about it, but I also don't feel like making fun of people that do care about it, it's whatever

Functions don't work alone without other functions. Ne is connected to Ti, Fe and Si, all of them provide it with the necessary information to work

It will give different results than Se for sure , but this doesn't mean it will fail

[godslave]

I think it's worth considering these primative people now in certain regions might have ancestors that developed ancient civilizations lost to time.

I find out that there are some controversies about that video in particular and Jean-Pierre Dutilleux 's level of conscientiousness in general. It might be a fake. Anyways, I agree with you on the possible glorious past of their ancestors and like I said in my first post on this thread their ancestors might have encountered the Apocalypse too.

[on a peaceful hiatus]

How is Ne connected to Ti when IEE have Ne as base with Ti as weakest function? I thought this thread is about societies, not random people who bought some random land. And yes, Se is definitely related to ambition. Why am I constantly reading stuff here that is contrary to socionics definitions?

[Squirrel]

How is Ne connected to Ti when IEE have Ne as base with Ti as weakest function?

Ne is connected to Ti in the case of Alpha Quadra

[timber]

How is Ne connected to Ti when IEE have Ne as base with Ti as weakest function? I thought this thread is about societies, not random people who bought some random land. And yes, Se is definitely related to ambition. Why am I constantly reading stuff here that is contrary to socionics definitions?

No where in any of the definitions of Se does it say the word "ambitions".

Sorry you are using your own faults as a human being to use as a lens to see the rest of the world with.

[The Reality Denialist]

I think OP is partly trolling. this post is accurate as saying "all black people are SEE, just look at the NFL / NBA / entertainment industry!!"

but i guess the broader questions are

1) whether cultures and subcultures can be based on quadra and

2) whether a primitive society vs advanced society is type related

Quadras consist of 4 types that share and value common information elements; does this necessarily mean they often come together more frequently than non-quadra members?

I doubt this. Organizations consist of many different types of people from all walks of life. Now HOW they handle and conduct themselves WITHIN that organization may be type-related.

Also, conflating "primitive" organizations with "infantile SFs" is freakin hilarious but im not sure if thats totally accurate.

Are we implying that Alphas are less evolved and deltas are most evolved??? Assuming that types evolve and differentiate in the first place...

This only refers to the most differentiated aspects of the culture. Namely we see sensing and feeling, lack of intra species aggression. As such highly "evolved" cultures as a whole should be non-typeable. This is basically defying universality of socionics which is totally cool and should be done in the name of open mindedness which brings this stuff closer to its jungian roots. Furthermore defies the set in stone 8 functions which is only a temporary time window in place and time, Amen.

[lookin4waifu]

Thank you for sharing about this advanced civilization. I wonder if simps exist in their culture.

[lookin4waifu]

Many, many modern organizations are run by alpha SFs.

It's laughable to think they are all in some proverbial lala land just singing and dancing.

Have you ever tried working for an alpha SF? That IS pretty much what they’re doing.

[Metamorph]

He probably met them but typed them as Ni bases because in his opinion only valuing Se types cares about such things

Poor guy, he hadn't heard of something called Enneagram that moves a person and shapes his motives

"I only use physics! Chemistry is irrelevant!"

[The Reality Denialist]

Thank you for sharing about this advanced civilization. I wonder if simps exist in their culture.

It appears that instead of simping they are pimping. So they practice inter tribal prostitution to get new shiny canoes and stuff.

While many primitive tribes practice their own sugar daddy policies which is closer to ST mindset, they have decided to go with prostitution (SF).

[Rusal]

Si and Ni tribes practice agroculture. the piraha instead are hunter gatherers. they dont need to pay attention to time.

That can be expanded: no harvest - no surplus in a good season - no threat of raiders that steal it- no need for defense and later on more complex structures (SLEs, LSIs). Also for this lack of a need, no ideological artifacts like oral traditions about Beta warriors like Lancelot (FeNi code of honor) that causes the downfall of the whole group for personal desire (an LSI's nightmare) and endangers the whole of Camelot. Point being: not sure this defies the universality of the functions; rather, maybe Beta is unable to gather enough momentum to make the transition and mark an era.

[The Reality Denialist]

Agriculture is already a big step towards fragmentation. So they are less specialized and have larger selection of differentiated functions. With it Ni becomes more useful. Not to say you can not have it without utility. You'll buy security and trade it with carefree life [as if your life matters more]. What we can learn from primitive tribes is that we build our own illusions. With farming rationally driven logic is also essential as you begin to make divisions.

[godslave]

Agriculture is already a big step towards fragmentation. So they are less specialized and have larger selection of differentiated functions. With it Ni becomes more useful. Not to say you can not have it without utility. You'll buy security and trade it with carefree life [as if your life matters more]. What we can learn from primitive tribes is that we build our own illusions. With farming rationally driven logic is also essential as you begin to make divisions.

I'm not sure about the differentiated functions thing because that implies some profond anthropological and philosophical implications. I think we have to be careful before jumping to conclusions and dig deeper beneath the surface of the appearances. As a reminder, socionics typology is just a theory which pertains to a part of the psychological structure of individuals and the dynamics of interactions of those individuals within the context of a given society. From that perspective socionics is both a typological system at the Individuals level and a sociological system at the group level (Small groups and Socion).

With that said, being perfectly integrated and adapted to an ecosystem is the proper of all the species and in the order of things so to speak. However, human beings have a unique potential of adaptability to a variety of ecosystem and even create its own if need be. The human brain has evolved (or has been designed (?)) to be that way. The major influence of the environment which lead to the evolution of the human brain in order for the humankind to survive have already been made that is to say that every human being have the potential to be perfectly integrated to an ecosystem and live in harmony with it under certain conditions. After all we are but animals and as such biologically a product of nature programmed to live symbiotically and the great faculty of adaptation of our species is what made us the dominant species on this earth.

Now, back to the 8 functions legitimity of existence (awakening ?). The idea that psychological functions (which comes in pairs !) or archetypical functions need a reason to exist in order to be developed is interesting and probably true. However, it will take generations upon generations I mean a very long time under symbiosis condition for nature to update the human being programm so to speak. It's funny to know that there isn't a time metric to measure the time of evolution of species (maybe there is a the unicellular life level (?)). My point is whatever the structure of our psyche might really be and whatever the model (as long as it is internally consistent) we use as a reference, that structure hasn't evolved significantly to the point of the emergence of a new human species and after changes upon changes we are more or less the same (~ lie la lie, yes I'm quoting a Simon and Garfunkel song !).

Therefore, When it comes to "primitive societies" or groups of human beings living in symbiosis with their environment depending on how we see it, If we think in terms of socionics the 8 function model is still valid and for instance the Piraha might not value some IEs not because they don't exist but just because they don't need them to be valued (or so it seems). The fact that they don't measure time or speak only in present (and here we are obviously in the "trust me bro" zone) doesn't mean that Ni doesn't exist in their socion, that's a bit simplistic imho (not that I have something against simplic, on the contrary). As a reminder there a lot of languages that don't have grammatical tenses, those are called tenseless languages and are well known in linguistic. Since a lot of us here are Japanophiles, we know that Japanese language doesn't have a Future tense.

Now, the fact that they don't have integrated the notion of numbers obviously doesn't mean that can't do rudimentary math even if it's not accurate they at least have a sense of estimation and proportions. I've seen that every Pihara knows the names of insects, animals, plants etc living in their environment. They also know how they live, their behaviors and even how and when to use certain pants and insects for a given purpose. They live in harmony and equilibrium with their environment, there is an abundance in resources compare to their population, a sort of self-sufficiency that rendered agriculture and rationalisation of ressources unnecessary (Necessity is the mother of invention - Plato ).

I don't know how that tribe do it but there must be an educational system that prevents dominant types to express their true nature. Emotions, positives and negatives are an expression of the human condition. There have been times when the Puraha wanted to kill Daniel Everett and his family for whatever reason. That's the expression of the human condition, The Piraha don't like strangers and they don't like them to integrate their group because their are different, that the expression of the human condition. What can we say about that ? What are the expression of IEs awareness we covered so far ? All we can say imho is that no matter where we are and how we live, we are just an expression of the human condition. Anyways, sorry for this long post and note that I don't know what I'm talking about.