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Thread: INFj uncovered (tun dun dun duuuuun!)

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    Default INFj uncovered (tun dun dun duuuuun!)

    So I was looking through the ENFp uncovered thread and I realised there's no EII Uncovered thread, which is basically all the negative or hidden traits and facts about EIIs and their behaviour. Let's gooo! (You can (quite truthfully) trash EIIs here )

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    What comes to my mind about them...

    I think they are totally capable of breaking some rules that they deem as wrong. If there is need for it that specific thing means nothing to them. They'll take the risk.
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    Yes agreed with the purple puff, we can get extremely motivated by our visions and lose sense of reality for it. At the worst, but that doesn't happen so rarely...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Because EII are perfect (jk).

    My EII sister is probably one of the most emotionally balanced, even temperd and mentally healthy people I know. She is also a genuinely good person, very responsible and I would totally trust her with my life.

    That said, she is an enneagram 9 (a common EII enneagram type), and tends to run from any kind of conflict or perceived drama. She finds my beta/enneagram 4 dramatics to be way too much to deal with at times and generally keeps up this big Fi wall between us. She is my roommate currently, but I hardly know about anything going on with her life because of her incredibly private nature. For example, when she starts dating someone I definitely won't find out about it from her. Last year she suffered a heavy personal tragedy, and she refused to talk about it with me for the most part. If I ever asked her about it she would end the conversation right there and leave. I'm not sure if this has more to do with her being an enneagram 9, though.

    Most of the time she finds me to be very annoying and acts grumpy when I try to hang out with her. After years of being pushed away I've just kind of accepted that I'm not going to get the typical sister relationship with her that I would prefer.
    My bf's sister is EII and she is totally the same to the last thing you described. He's often annoyed at her because she's so private, doesn't tell him even super important things like for example that she broke up with her boyfriend or changed jobs, although he's really nice to her and wants to help her and she in general acts grumpy if you want to get anything out of her. She's an interesting intelligent person, but pretty frustrating to deal with - the wall she has with other people is so fucking high and there's no way to know how to climb it. People like that seem really modest, but when you look closer they're actually really high maintainance and self centered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Because EII are perfect (jk).

    My EII sister is probably one of the most emotionally balanced, even temperd and mentally healthy people I know. She is also a genuinely good person, very responsible and I would totally trust her with my life.

    That said, she is an enneagram 9 (a common EII enneagram type), and tends to run from any kind of conflict or perceived drama. She finds my beta/enneagram 4 dramatics to be way too much to deal with at times and generally keeps up this big Fi wall between us. She is my roommate currently, but I hardly know about anything going on with her life because of her incredibly private nature. For example, when she starts dating someone I definitely won't find out about it from her. Last year she suffered a heavy personal tragedy, and she refused to talk about it with me for the most part. If I ever asked her about it she would end the conversation right there and leave. I'm not sure if this has more to do with her being an enneagram 9, though.

    Most of the time she finds me to be very annoying and acts grumpy when I try to hang out with her. After years of being pushed away I've just kind of accepted that I'm not going to get the typical sister relationship with her that I would prefer.
    It's most probably because of her Enneagram type, but I do think that's a trait that all EIIs have, the privacy, just to different extents. I'm 4w3 and am dramatic as hell, but it has a subtle edge to it I guess because I'm EII.

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    I don't identify with the aforementioned extreme privacy stuff. Maybe that's specific to EII-Fi or social-last? I err on the side of oversharing, even to less close friends.

    Probably the most surprising negative trait I have is that I'm very judgmental. I appear non-judgmental, so much so that even the shyest and most socially anxious people find me comfortable to be around. But I'm always aware of what spending time with someone does for me--whether I enjoy their company directly, as well as whether I derive some sort of status from it--and if I don't get much from them, I limit my time with them. Like yeah, I want to make lonely/poor people happier, but I don't want to spend so much of my time with them that I'm seen as belonging to them as a group.

    I'm also a huge gossip, though I'm trying to be better about that.

    The most surprising non-negative trait about me is probably my sexuality.

    The most negative unsurprising trait about me is probably everything related to my Se polr (e.g., being quiet in new groups of people).

    Another negative, perhaps surprising characteristic of EIIs I've seen in descriptions and identify with is emotional accounting--that EIIs keep track of how much they've done for each specific person and get pissy if someone's account goes too far in the red. Actually, I suppose this isn't necessarily negative. It's negative if the EII holds grudges over cents or dollars, but it's probably healthy if the EII is able to notice someone is thousands of dollars in debt while showing no signs of intending to repay anything.

    A complaint I personally have about other EIIs (and maybe I am sometimes guilty of, though I try to be aware of it) is that they can often be self-centered in conversations. Like when a friend told an EII friend and me that her leg was hurting, our EII friend replied, "[My boyfriend] gave me a bike." This EII friend, and my hs EII friend, barely talk about what's going on with me when we're together, only saying a few words of response before changing the topic to something about them. And sometimes they go on the longest, most pointless rambles and seem to be unable to read my utter lack of interest. My college EII friend is better about this, but still a little guilty of it. The only time they can focus on me completely is if I'm breaking down in tears. -_-'' I guess considering everyone else's complaint seems to be that EIIs are too private/don't say enough, and generally EIIs are considered great listeners, maybe my complaint only applies as an EII interacting with other EIIs.
    Last edited by Saoirse; 08-06-2017 at 03:53 PM.

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    I say this is a big fat taker, so maybe this is just self serving, but whats the point of ethics if you're going to hold it over people's heads; or perhaps that is the point?

    although the thought just occured to me, maybe "pissy" is not so much other directed as self directed in the sense its almost like a Te "pearls before swine" thing where you're just like "ugh I can't believe I wasted my time on this person" and its annoying because you should have in some sense known better, or perhaps done better (a lack of efficacy driving self criticism)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economist View Post
    I don't identify with the aforementioned extreme privacy stuff. Maybe that's specific to EII-Fi or social-last? I err on the side of oversharing, even to less close friends.

    Probably the most surprising negative trait I have is that I'm very judgmental. I appear non-judgmental, so much so that even the shyest and most socially anxious people find me comfortable to be around. But I'm always aware of what spending time with someone does for me--whether I enjoy their company directly, as well as whether I derive some sort of status from it--and if I don't get much from them, I limit my time with them. Like yeah, I want to make lonely/poor people happier, but I don't want to spend so much of my time with them that I'm seen as belonging to them as a group.

    I'm also a huge gossip, though I'm trying to be better about that.

    The most surprising non-negative trait about me is probably my sexuality.

    The most negative unsurprising trait about me is probably everything related to my Se polr (e.g., being quiet in new groups of people).

    Another negative, perhaps surprising characteristic of EIIs I've seen in descriptions and identify with is emotional accounting--that EIIs keep track of how much they've done for each specific person and get pissy if someone's account goes too far in the red. Actually, I suppose this isn't necessarily negative. It's negative if the EII holds grudges over cents or dollars, but it's probably healthy if the EII is able to notice someone is thousands of dollars in debt while showing no signs of intending to repay anything.

    A complaint I personally have about other EIIs (and maybe I am sometimes guilty of, though I try to be aware of it) is that they can often be self-centered in conversations. Like when a friend told an EII friend and me that her leg was hurting, our EII friend replied, "[My boyfriend] gave me a bike." This EII friend, and my hs EII friend, barely talk about what's going on with me when we're together, only saying a few words of response before changing the topic to something about them. And sometimes they go on the longest, most pointless rambles and seem to be unable to read my utter lack of interest. My college EII friend is better about this, but still a little guilty of it. The only time they can focus on me completely is if I'm breaking down in tears. -_-'' I guess considering everyone else's complaint seems to be that EIIs are too private/don't say enough, and generally EIIs are considered great listeners, maybe my complaint only applies as an EII interacting with other EIIs.
    What do you mean by your sexuality?

    Most of your observations sound directly influenced by your social first instinct.
    I do identify with being slightly self-centered in conversations though.

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    What do you mean by your sexuality?

    Most of your observations sound directly influenced by your social first instinct.
    I do identify with being slightly self-centered in conversations though.
    Agreed re: my instinct. Though, just wondering, you don't identify with the emotional accounting at all?

    Also, about the self-centeredness, I think it applies more to when an EII is with close friends than in general?

    Re: sexuality, I appear to be a wholesome, innocent, somewhat naive woman, but I'm actually pretty kinky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    although the thought just occured to me, maybe "pissy" is not so much other directed as self directed in the sense its almost like a Te "pearls before swine" thing where you're just like "ugh I can't believe I wasted my time on this person" and its annoying because you should have in some sense known better, or perhaps done better (a lack of efficacy driving self criticism)?
    That's an interesting interpretation of "pissy," but for me at least, it's still directed toward the person whom I feel is in debt with me.

    I say this is a big fat taker, so maybe this is just self serving, but whats the point of ethics if you're going to hold it over people's heads; or perhaps that is the point?
    IMO, the point of ethics isn't to be a totally self-sacrificial saint to everyone. It's to be aware of how fair everything is. If a person is good and generous (not even necessarily specifically to me, but just in general), then I want to be good and generous to them. Like I want the universe to be fair and balanced, and I am one agent for this goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economist View Post
    IMO, the point of ethics isn't to be a totally self-sacrificial saint to everyone. It's to be aware of how fair everything is. If a person is good and generous (not even necessarily specifically to me, but just in general), then I want to be good and generous to them. Like I want the universe to be fair and balanced, and I am one agent for this goal.
    I feel like everyone views themselves this way. "I want things to be fair" "I will work towards it" "I decide what constitutes fair" it feels trivial in that sense.. what does this accomplish? fairness is in some sense defined as the thing you work towards. it feels like the only real moral stance would be to invert this: "I don't actually deserve all the good things I get"... otherwise you're just doing exactly what everyone does which is define whatever they want (literally) as good. I guess maybe its the difference between victim and childlike, because there's a kind of naivete to it, but that perhaps contains a nugget of genuine goodness that perhaps makes it possible and not something to be cynical about

    i mean Im terrible at this, so dont take my word for it, but I feel like ethics could be simplified as greater sacrifice = greater ethics. as soon as you take sacrifice out of it, it seems to get awfully subjective, because its so easy to simply define what you want as "what everyone should be doing" its just so linear, its like, "wow thats awfully convenient, unless you're making it inconvenient" and now we're back to sacrifice being the core of morality

    i guess the point is that ethics does not have to be objectively meaningful perhaps, but rather its a subjective state of mind directed at the actions of others... yes perhaps thats it, like you are not making any claims at objectivity. so to judge it in light of its presumed objectivity is to presume extroverted judging values

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I feel like everyone views themselves this way. "I want things to be fair" "I will work towards it" "I decide what constitutes fair" it feels trivial in that sense.. what does this accomplish? fairness is in some sense defined as the thing you work towards. it feels like the only real moral stance would be to invert this: "I don't actually deserve all the good things I get"... otherwise you're just doing exactly what everyone does which is define whatever they want (literally) as good. I guess maybe its the difference between victim and childlike, because there's a kind of naivete to it, but that perhaps contains a nugget of genuine goodness that perhaps makes it possible and not something to be cynical about

    i mean Im terrible at this, so dont take my word for it, but I feel like ethics could be simplified as greater sacrifice = greater ethics. as soon as you take sacrifice out of it, it seems to get awfully subjective, because its so easy to simply define what you want as "what everyone should be doing" its just so linear, its like, "wow thats awfully convenient, unless you're making it inconvenient" and now we're back to sacrifice being the core of morality

    i guess the point is that ethics does not have to be objectively meaningful perhaps, but rather its a subjective state of mind directed at the actions of others... yes perhaps thats it, like you are not making any claims at objectivity. so to judge it in light of its presumed objectivity is to presume extroverted judging values
    Yes, I'm not making claims at objectivity. The problem with a broad rule like "greater sacrifice = greater ethics" is that you can probably always find things that don't seem to fit. Suppose you're wrongfully arrested for serial killing, but you have evidence that it wasn't you--or you even have evidence that it was specifically Bob. It's more sacrificial to take the fall for it, but then you're letting a serial killer go free, and he will probably kill more people. Doesn't seem ethical at all.

    Probably everyone wants to be fair, but some people are less confident in their ability to determine what is fair. "I want things to be fair," "I will work towards it," yes, probably everyone feels these things. "I decide what constitutes fair"--I don't think everyone feels this. My LSE friend definitely lets me impact what he thinks is fair, e.g., do I think he's treating our friends well enough.

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    interesting, I agree with everything, except I'd add its easy to reframe taking the fall for the serial killer as unsacrificial because you're essentially taking their place which entails a sacrifice, but it is more than offset by the suffering she will cause by continuing her rampage, i.e. you may have ameliorated the suffering of one woman, but cause the suffering of 10 more by doing so (not to mention by locking yourself up, you reduce your own possibilities). but your point is well taken, I see what you mean and I don't think the example is anything but an example etc etc

    LSEs are monsters so I'm not surprised they require an external conscience

    I suppose their greatest act of conscience is sincerely allowing outside input. In the end everyone could probably learn from that. But its humorous coming from Dostoyevski, because they've set themselves up as the person to come to

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    Yep agreed with the final reasoning, Introverted Ethics is a conscious recognition of being subdued to one's unconscious basically, this causes the often felt states of impotence against the world, we recognize we operate with a filter, as we know everyone else does, but we are good at noticing that, making us look somewhat humble from outside, but actually very shielded by this knowledge: we're all different, all is subjective. Some people don't get it : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    interesting, I agree with everything, except I'd add its easy to reframe taking the fall for the serial killer as unsacrificial because you're essentially taking their place which entails a sacrifice, but it is more than offset by the suffering she will cause by continuing her rampage, i.e. you may have ameliorated the suffering of one woman, but cause the suffering of 10 more by doing so (not to mention by locking yourself up, you reduce your own possibilities). but your point is well taken, I see what you mean and I don't think the example is anything but an example etc etc
    It seems you were implicitly thinking of a rule like "more sacrifice in exchange for others' benefit = more ethics" instead of just "more sacrifice = more ethics." But then you get into subjectivity because you have to start comparing levels of benefit/suffering across people. Is it better or worse if a serial killer suffers than if a non-serial killer suffers? This is in principle subjective even though everyone would say it's better if a serial killer suffers than a non-serial killer.

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    sorry Eco but this example makes not really sense O_o who's that stupid to take upon him some stranger's fault, at the cost of his life? EII value freedom and sacrifice has little to do with this scenario

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybris theory View Post
    Yep agreed with the final reasoning, Introverted Ethics is a conscious recognition of being subdued to one's unconscious basically, this causes the often felt states of impotence against the world, we recognize we operate with a filter, as we know everyone else does, but we are good at noticing that, making us look somewhat humble from outside, but actually very shielded by this knowledge: we're all different, all is subjective. Some people don't get it : )
    that's really interesting, hard for me to wrap my head around. like I get the idea, but what it must be like is really foreign to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economist View Post
    Agreed re: my instinct. Though, just wondering, you don't identify with the emotional accounting at all?

    Also, about the self-centeredness, I think it applies more to when an EII is with close friends than in general?

    Re: sexuality, I appear to be a wholesome, innocent, somewhat naive woman, but I'm actually pretty kinky.



    That's an interesting interpretation of "pissy," but for me at least, it's still directed toward the person whom I feel is in debt with me.



    IMO, the point of ethics isn't to be a totally self-sacrificial saint to everyone. It's to be aware of how fair everything is. If a person is good and generous (not even necessarily specifically to me, but just in general), then I want to be good and generous to them. Like I want the universe to be fair and balanced, and I am one agent for this goal.
    I do identify with the emotional accounting, but it's mostly subconscious UNTIL I get mad at the person, and the blame-flood comes out of nowhere : "After I did this and this.." etc and I remember everything I've done for the person and all the sacrifices I've made. This IS what you mean by emotional accounting, right?

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    eheheh no why Bert it's simple, we're all diff bros and sis in this world

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    no no no you don't understand how hard it is to be objectively correct about absolutely everything like me

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    I agree with the concept of sacrifice with that of sacrificing our inner feels in order to meet the world, we can go on a very insane length to do this, and the result is closure and all that people perceive of us as a wall, that's sacrifice for us, but comes all natural..

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    I wish I knew!

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    thats actually how I think of sacrifice a lot, you put it so well "closure" because that what it takes to end cycles that would otherwise go on forever. its interesting because sacrifice of that kind can take many forms, sometimes it is not simply acceding but being willing to fight even when it would be easier not to. its interesting how complex such a thing can be

    like Jesus said "I came not to bring peace but a sword", but without a sacrificial attitude it is just pure brutality and domination, it requires love first of all or the whole thing is a swindle

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    yes. probably the sword comes after sacrificing for so long that you can just express yourself with extreme acts, pent up feelings can do both bad and good

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    yeah Fi dom is probably extreme care for the first part of the process which is to define and understand for themselves what love really is so that they might be able to wield the sword with responsibility and meaning. perhaps thats where LSE comes in

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybris theory View Post
    sorry Eco but this example makes not really sense O_o who's that stupid to take upon him some stranger's fault, at the cost of his life? EII value freedom and sacrifice has little to do with this scenario
    That's kind of my point. Sacrifice =/= ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    I do identify with the emotional accounting, but it's mostly subconscious UNTIL I get mad at the person, and the blame-flood comes out of nowhere : "After I did this and this.." etc and I remember everything I've done for the person and all the sacrifices I've made. This IS what you mean by emotional accounting, right?
    Yeah! You're right, it's subconscious until the account balance hits an extremely negative amount. Then an itemized list of debts suddenly comes out of nowhere, that I didn't even know I was keeping track of.

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    It's curious but I was watching the news on tv and this is what was going on:

    A while ago a guy, 28 years, killed his fiancé and made it look like an accident. He went to trial and proved to be "innocent", because there were not enough proofs.
    His mum knew the truth though, the young guy had confessed to her; she convinced the son to show himself again infront of the law orders and admit his guilt. The guy in the end followed his mother's morals, and went to constitute himself.

    The mother in here acted like an EII, sacrificing his son's freedom, for a higher good. I wonder though if the same would have happened if she had been the guilty one, would she still have found the courage for such an "heroic" act?

    It's got little to do with any higher good to sacrifice oneself's life when you know you're not doing it for any good.. why does someone should be ok to go to jail when it's someone's else fault? o_O That's just plain masochism

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    I think everything hinges on the EII being willing to do that if they were the guilty one. I do think its sort of the lesson of Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, in fact. freedom for him was going to Siberia because until he admitted it he couldn't heal, and it was tearing him apart, aside from the "official legality" of the situation. so if the EII was worth their salt they would have to concede the same goes for them were they in that position. in other words, its in their own best interest to admit guilt, because there is no freedom in hiding such a thing. you could be freer in prison than on the street, etc. which is why it also makes no sense for the EII to exchange themselves for the guilty party--the guilty party needs to confess for their own sake. EII going in their place makes no sense like @hybris theory points out

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    read spoiler before you proceed


    their guilt complex graces them with the ability to weave eloquent "woe is me" vents where they star as the victim in yet another grim fairy-tale wherein they hurt yet another person with their evasiveness, passive aggression, and general obliviousness to anyone's feelings except their own. they'll never tell you that you've hurt them (not directly, at least) but, mark my words, they'll tell everyone else. it'll go through the grapevine and back again before it ever gets to you, but please don't call them out, not unless you wanna hear them berate themselves for hours on end in a petty attempt to guilt-trip you out of guilt-tripping them. "i'm terrible!" *shakes EII translator* "you're terrible!" that's their cue to bless you with their self-righteous silent treatment, or, if they're feeling frisky, their infamous disappearing act. maybe even a guilt-inducing "adios" to rub salt in the wound. your best bet in keeping them around is to list all your obscure accomplishments with regards to your education, your career, and how well you write, sing, dance, draw, and/or paint.

    to this day, scientists are still stumped as to how Fi-leads with the aid Ne-creative & Ni-demonstrative (which translates into god-tier levels of foresight and empathy, didn't ya know?) can't foresee the long-term consequences of poking and prodding around the hearts of the misunderstood and downtrodden, extracting their innermost pains and struggles, fleshing them out, performing autopsies, alleviating only a fraction of the pain before "selflessly" leaving them behind to deal with their tear-stained emotionally defiled corpses, which inevitably results in you and everyone else fiending for the EII's "bottomless pit of empathy". the aftermath of this heartbreak is amplified if the EII in question has taken it upon themselves to tug at your heartstrings a little bit (surprise, surprise - they've formed yet another "crush") before their martyrdom kicks in and they've decided that you deserve better. it's not that they've lost interest, it's not that they've spotted a new "shiny" - of course not, it's that you deserve better. it's for the Greater Good.

    they forget to fulfill one of their promises to you? Greater Good.
    they break a vase in a fit of misdirected anger? Greater Good.
    you see that dead dog in the corner over there? you guessed it. Greater Good.

    it's easy to view them as morally immaculate beings until you realize their brand of "morality" is merely a byproduct of being a doormat with a strong aversion to any form of direct communication. "fuck you" is blatantly offensive, but how do you articulate your hurt when the reason you're hurt is because you were left hanging by a sadomasochistic energy vampire with a lovely penchant for mental gymnastics and "selflessly" administering guilt-trips and silent treatments? that, my friends, is the cowardly man's "fuck you". don't let inaction fool you. they're not opting out of conflict between two loved ones because they love them both "truly, deeply, unconditionally", it's self-preservation at its finest, they just don't want you to hate them, but it's not so easy to point out faults in a spineless wallflower who doesn't do anything with their life except romanticize and decay with indecision.
    Last edited by wasp; 08-12-2017 at 09:57 AM.

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    Which EII hurt you?

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    maybe i misinterpreted the OP ("you can [quite truthfully] trash EIIs here"), but i interpreted it literally, so i flipped the description upside-down and tackled it from a negative perspective. the nature of uncovered profiles is to take a magnifying glass to flaws specific to each sociotype and blow them up with a satirical twist ("dead dog"), but on occasion i over-step boundaries, such as equating Fi to suicide and Fe to bullying, describing alpha NTs as autistic, poking fun at ESIs for giving off "PTSD vibes", etc. i've made fun of all 4 quadras and i've probably made fun of each individual sociotype, too. in fact, there's even a few posts where i've defended EIIs, so it's mostly just a satirical representation of socionics with nuggets of truth here and there.

    which is just my long-winded way of saying that i'm sorry, it's not personal, but if it offends you, then i can take it down?

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    EIIs are complex, because at their core they are incredibly subjective. That's . Everything is about ignoring what a person really is and just go with the inner feeling. But this is combined with so they can be very flexible in their views. They seem to understand "your world", but then it turns out that everything was built up from their own subjectivity.

    With the EIIs I've dated I felt like they built up a house of cards and it didn't feel honest and real. There is something fake about EII.

    The ESI will impose their subjectivity on you. The EII will be more subtle, slowly make a web of something they imagine to be real.

    They are good authors though
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by super mbti user View Post
    maybe i misinterpreted the OP ("you can [quite truthfully] trash EIIs here"), but i interpreted it literally, so i flipped the description upside-down and tackled it from a negative perspective. the nature of uncovered profiles is to take a magnifying glass to flaws specific to each sociotype and blow them up with a satirical twist ("dead dog"), but on occasion i over-step boundaries, such as equating Fi to suicide and Fe to bullying, describing alpha NTs as autistic, poking fun at ESIs for giving off "PTSD vibes", etc. i've made fun of all 4 quadras and i've probably made fun of each individual sociotype, too. in fact, there's even a few posts where i've defended EIIs, so it's mostly just a satirical representation of socionics with nuggets of truth here and there.

    which is just my long-winded way of saying that i'm sorry, it's not personal, but if it offends you, then i can take it down?
    No no don't take it down. I'm allowed to react, aren't I? Well I hate to say it but you're quite right, though in a warped kind of way in my perspective hehe

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    EIIs are complex, because at their core they are incredibly subjective. That's . Everything is about ignoring what a person really is and just go with the inner feeling. But this is combined with so they can be very flexible in their views. They seem to understand "your world", but then it turns out that everything was built up from their own subjectivity.

    With the EIIs I've dated I felt like they built up a house of cards and it didn't feel honest and real. There is something fake about EII.

    The ESI will impose their subjectivity on you. The EII will be more subtle, slowly make a web of something they imagine to be real.

    They are good authors though
    We idealize and romanticize almost everything, but that doesn't mean that it's not real. We know at the back of our minds exactly who a person is, raw and non-idealized. We know what we're getting into with that person. But most times this brings some kind of disappointment or ordinarity (if that's a word) and for us to give all our love and care in full Fi mode we have to idealize. So yes, it's honest. Yes it's real. Just romanticized.

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    We idealize and romanticize almost everything, but that doesn't mean that it's not real. We know at the back of our minds exactly who a person is, raw and non-idealized. We know what we're getting into with that person. But most times this brings some kind of disappointment or ordinarity (if that's a word) and for us to give all our love and care in full Fi mode we have to idealize. So yes, it's honest. Yes it's real. Just romanticized.
    I'd disagree, just from the fact that you're saying you completely know everything about a person from the get-go and they're ordinary and boring beyond repair so you have to pretend they're not just to make things interesting enough you can force yourself to fulfill your socion-given mission. Tallmo's post seems like a bit of exaggeration, saying "Fi-doms are completely delusional!" but "No, we're not delusional, we're omniscient and we have to deal with everyone else besides us being unbearably boring!" is both worse and kind of affirms what Tallmo said even more than what he probably meant. From personal experience, there is a lot of subjectivity with EIIs. If you want objectivity, look to Beta NFs, but then Beta NFs are generally not as empathetic (which isn't saying much, since Delta NFs are made specifically to be literal empaths and Beta is made to be the Golden Horde) so there's a tradeoff.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    We idealize and romanticize almost everything, but that doesn't mean that it's not real. We know at the back of our minds exactly who a person is, raw and non-idealized. We know what we're getting into with that person. But most times this brings some kind of disappointment or ordinarity (if that's a word) and for us to give all our love and care in full Fi mode we have to idealize. So yes, it's honest. Yes it's real. Just romanticized.
    Remember that the base function of EII is a subjective feeling function. It is not some ultimate source of information about people.

    Well, if you idealize something then that is not really real.

    I don't think EIIs know "exactly" who a person is. Why would they know that?

    We were not supposed to talk about virtues here, but if I do it anyway I'd say that the virtue of the EII is the ability to feel empathy for a person on a large scale.
    I think of it this way that they paint a picture of that person and his situation. And then they can relate to that picture. It's a kind of virtual reality.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    I'd disagree, just from the fact that you're saying you completely know everything about a person from the get-go and they're ordinary and boring beyond repair so you have to pretend they're not just to make things interesting enough you can force yourself to fulfill your socion-given mission. Tallmo's post seems like a bit of exaggeration, saying "Fi-doms are completely delusional!" but "No, we're not delusional, we're omniscient and we have to deal with everyone else besides us being unbearably boring!" is both worse and kind of affirms what Tallmo said even more than what he probably meant. From personal experience, there is a lot of subjectivity with EIIs. If you want objectivity, look to Beta NFs, but then Beta NFs are generally not as empathetic (which isn't saying much, since Delta NFs are made specifically to be literal empaths and Beta is made to be the Golden Horde) so there's a tradeoff.
    that's interesting. due to their high emotionality, low emotional inhibition, and self-righteousness, i think beta NF evaluations degrade over time which lowers objectivity. if anything they know how to get (negative) reactions out of people, but i don't think that equates to understanding, maybe of humanity at large but not of individuals. their ability to spot dishonesty and hypocrisy comes from wavelengths of probability. "[x] doesn't fit what i've observed in the past, therefore it's more false than true," which doesn't work in the case of outliers, which is usually the case. they know how to play to the crowd and spin narratives in their favor + their minds work like typology with slight leeway for deviation and/or nuance. Ne-egos, especially Ne-leads, are their kryptonite. suffice to say, i've never been impressed by their evaluations, i usually just grow tired of their mindless emotional renegading ;]

    nah they're alright, but the best evaluations i've heard have come from IEEs, especially if they've taken a personal interest in someone.

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    O boy.

    EII E4 sx/sp reporting. Here is the feedback I get on daily basis:

    1. A little cunt-y.
    2. Stop making inferences about people based on their appearance or socioeconomic background (psh NEVER).
    3. Tend to make mental models of people.
    4. Tend to presume things about people.
    5. Occasionally selfish.
    6. Obsessed with social status.
    7. Obsessed with how I am seen.
    8. Lazy, lethargic.
    9. Value people over career, education.
    10. Rude. Blunt. Direct. Tend to strike people's weak points.
    11. "You're a great guy but not someone I'd trust with work", yes fuck you too.

    To balance out all the negative traits, here are some positive things I get to hear sometimes:

    1. "Your meanness is what makes you likeable, haha." said by ILE.
    2. Deadpan. Sarcastic.
    3. Always up for traveling.
    4. Tend to stick with people regardless of where they go.
    5. "I wish I was as confident as you are." said by IEI, poor guy doesn't know 80% of times I'm faking it.
    6. Good eye for visual harmony, design.
    7. "You should've been an artist" said by everyone ever (don't remind me)
    8. Tend to make people feel safe. Usually the person friends tell all their problems to.
    9. Tend to make people feel familiar. "Doesn't feel like we're meeting for the first time" is something I've heard repeatedly throughout my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economist View Post
    I don't identify with the aforementioned extreme privacy stuff. Maybe that's specific to EII-Fi or social-last? I err on the side of oversharing, even to less close friends.

    Probably the most surprising negative trait I have is that I'm very judgmental. I appear non-judgmental, so much so that even the shyest and most socially anxious people find me comfortable to be around. But I'm always aware of what spending time with someone does for me--whether I enjoy their company directly, as well as whether I derive some sort of status from it--and if I don't get much from them, I limit my time with them. Like yeah, I want to make lonely/poor people happier, but I don't want to spend so much of my time with them that I'm seen as belonging to them as a group.

    I'm also a huge gossip, though I'm trying to be better about that.

    The most surprising non-negative trait about me is probably my sexuality.

    The most negative unsurprising trait about me is probably everything related to my Se polr (e.g., being quiet in new groups of people).

    Another negative, perhaps surprising characteristic of EIIs I've seen in descriptions and identify with is emotional accounting--that EIIs keep track of how much they've done for each specific person and get pissy if someone's account goes too far in the red. Actually, I suppose this isn't necessarily negative. It's negative if the EII holds grudges over cents or dollars, but it's probably healthy if the EII is able to notice someone is thousands of dollars in debt while showing no signs of intending to repay anything.

    A complaint I personally have about other EIIs (and maybe I am sometimes guilty of, though I try to be aware of it) is that they can often be self-centered in conversations. Like when a friend told an EII friend and me that her leg was hurting, our EII friend replied, "[My boyfriend] gave me a bike." This EII friend, and my hs EII friend, barely talk about what's going on with me when we're together, only saying a few words of response before changing the topic to something about them. And sometimes they go on the longest, most pointless rambles and seem to be unable to read my utter lack of interest. My college EII friend is better about this, but still a little guilty of it. The only time they can focus on me completely is if I'm breaking down in tears. -_-'' I guess considering everyone else's complaint seems to be that EIIs are too private/don't say enough, and generally EIIs are considered great listeners, maybe my complaint only applies as an EII interacting with other EIIs.
    oh hello, me. you might want to consider E4 just btw lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by super mbti user View Post
    ...Ne-egos, especially Ne-leads, are their kryptonite. suffice to say, i've never been impressed by their evaluations, i usually just grow tired of their mindless emotional renegading ;]

    nah they're alright, but the best evaluations i've heard have come from IEEs, especially if they've taken a personal interest in someone.
    ...I would hardly say that about most of the Ne-doms on the forum, but maybe they're all mistyped. All of the ILEs are complete nerds, and most (at least, the most vocal) IEEs can barely tell what's going on in the mind a few inches behind what's right in front of their own nose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    ...I would hardly say that about most of the Ne-doms on the forum, but maybe they're all mistyped. All of the ILEs are complete nerds, and most (at least, the most vocal) IEEs can barely tell what's going on in the mind a few inches behind what's right in front of their own nose.
    you get me

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