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Thread: which type do you dislike the most?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    by an ISFp but the same person was surprised when I was the one around to help them the most when their life was falling apart at the seams.
    .. alright judgemental Judy lol.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoodoo View Post
    Well I'm sure psychopaths aren't the norm and socionics doesn't seem to model human deviances very well anyway. I'd guess the farther from the bell curve, the less relevant socionics becomes.
    Socionics may not measure extreme deviances but it's not difficult to extrapolate likely conclusions if we take the functions/information elements far enough. For example, IME, I don't believe I've encountered someone with diagnosed Schizophrenia (delusions, hallucinations, disorganized thinking, abnormal motor behavior) who wasn't an Ne lead or didn't have high D, usually valued Ne, which is all about piercing multiple veils of reality, recognizing ever emergent possibilities and permutations of objects, drawing parallels and associations between seemingly unrelated things, etc.... It shouldn't be difficult to see how Ne gone awry could manifest itself as a distorted perception of reality. Just like any extreme logical type with a 1D ethical function (which can manifest as a biologically induced form of "empathy blindness") could easily be a psychopath (which exists along a spectrum). What makes a disorder a disorder is a disruption of normal physical or mental functions.

    One of the things I like about many of the Sociotype profiles is that, unlike MBTI, they give you the pretty and the not to so pretty aspects of how any particular sociotype can manifest--read Strat's harsh take on LIEs and you'll see that she's essentially epitomizing LIE as the "corporate psychopath." lol And whereas I can certainly see glimpses of myself in even her more unflattering descriptions, most of the LIEs I know are not as bad as all that...but some are as bad or worse. But, again, they occupy the extreme margins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    For example, IME, I don't believe I've encountered someone with diagnosed Schizophrenia (delusions, hallucinations, disorganized thinking, abnormal motor behavior) who wasn't an Ne lead or didn't have high D, usually valued Ne, which is all about piercing multiple veils of reality, recognizing ever emergent possibilities and permutations of objects, drawing parallels and associations between seemingly unrelated things, etc.... It shouldn't be difficult to see how Ne gone awry could manifest itself as a distorted perception of reality. Just like any extreme logical type with a 1D ethical function (which can manifest as a biologically induced form of "empathy blindness") could easily be a psychopath (which exists along a spectrum). What makes a disorder a disorder is a disruption of normal physical or mental functions.
    I highly doubt the facts you're pulling up. Basically, what you're saying are stereotypes like "all rapists are Se-doms" or "all autists are Ni-doms". High, conscious Ne manifests as high awareness of Ne aspects, doesn't mean Ne-doms are controlled by them(might be different for EIE and LIE, since it's unconscious for them). It's not because someone appears scattered and as having bad motor skills that they are Ne-doms. Any type can be schizophrenic, stop your pseudo-science. Actually, you are trying, with some surface level observation, to ascertain the whole psyche of someone, using the "medical gaze". Michel Foucault wrote about that in the The birth of the clinic:

    "Foucault coined the term "medical gaze" to denote the dehumanizing medical separation of the patient's body from the patient's person (identity). Through thorough examination (gazing) of a body, a doctor deduces symptom, illness, and cause, therefore achieving unparalleled understanding of the patient—hence, the doctor's medical gaze was believed to penetrate surface illusions, in near-mystical discovery of hidden truth." (from wikipedia)

    There is a line between between disease and unhealthy/low cognitive development. Unhealthy Ne-doms may disregard Si and ignore Ni completely and appear all over the place, naively idealistic, and excentric but they'll will never take their hallucinations for reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    Socionics may not measure extreme deviances but it's not difficult to extrapolate likely conclusions if we take the functions/information elements far enough. For example, IME, I don't believe I've encountered someone with diagnosed Schizophrenia (delusions, hallucinations, disorganized thinking, abnormal motor behavior) who wasn't an Ne lead or didn't have high D, usually valued Ne, which is all about piercing multiple veils of reality, recognizing ever emergent possibilities and permutations of objects, drawing parallels and associations between seemingly unrelated things, etc.... It shouldn't be difficult to see how Ne gone awry could manifest itself as a distorted perception of reality. Just like any extreme logical type with a 1D ethical function (which can manifest as a biologically induced form of "empathy blindness") could easily be a psychopath (which exists along a spectrum). What makes a disorder a disorder is a disruption of normal physical or mental functions.

    One of the things I like about many of the Sociotype profiles is that, unlike MBTI, they give you the pretty and the not to so pretty aspects of how any particular sociotype can manifest--read Strat's harsh take on LIEs and you'll see that she's essentially epitomizing LIE as the "corporate psychopath." lol And whereas I can certainly see glimpses of myself in even her more unflattering descriptions, most of the LIEs I know are not as bad as all that...but some are as bad or worse. But, again, they occupy the extreme margins.
    Okay, so that's interesting. I think the socionics model is based on or underrided by Jungian dualistic aspects of personality. The idea that we repress certain dualistic aspects of ourselves to serve our egos. And duality has a place in helping with and balancing the repression of complementary egos.

    That said, the psychopath I did know well probably fit best into LSI. However, he was very different compared to other LSIs in that he didn't have the emotions they did to begin with. The other LSIs repressed their emotions in favor of being cold rational people. Once you got to know them, there was a warmness they had. The psychopath LSI didn't repress anything and didn't really show a warmness as I got to know him; he also wasn't someone I could jar on an emotional level. He could however be insulted and annoyed by attempts to degrade him. But that was really it. He was okay to have fun with, but there just wasn't any deep emotions there.

    So I don't know. But if Strat thinks LIEs are best represented as corporate psychopaths, maybe she's conflating TeNi psychopaths with F repressed LIEs. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up before? (maybe it has)
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I highly doubt the facts you're pulling up. Basically, what you're saying are stereotypes like "all rapists are Se-doms" or "all autists are Ni-doms". High, conscious Ne manifests as high awareness of Ne aspects, doesn't mean Ne-doms are controlled by them(might be different for EIE and LIE, since it's unconscious for them). It's not because someone appears scattered and as having bad motor skills that they are Ne-doms. Any type can be schizophrenic, stop your pseudo-science. Actually, you are trying, with some surface level observation, to ascertain the whole psyche of someone, using the "medical gaze". Michel Foucault wrote about that in the The birth of the clinic:

    "Foucault coined the term "medical gaze" to denote the dehumanizing medical separation of the patient's body from the patient's person (identity). Through thorough examination (gazing) of a body, a doctor deduces symptom, illness, and cause, therefore achieving unparalleled understanding of the patient—hence, the doctor's medical gaze was believed to penetrate surface illusions, in near-mystical discovery of hidden truth." (from wikipedia)

    There is a line between between disease and unhealthy/low cognitive development. Unhealthy Ne-doms may disregard Si and ignore Ni completely and appear all over the place, naively idealistic, and excentric but they'll will never take their hallucinations for reality.
    Here we go >

    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    Socionics may not measure extreme deviances but it's not difficult to extrapolate likely conclusions if we take the functions/information elements far enough. For example, IME, I don't believe I've encountered someone with diagnosed Schizophrenia (delusions, hallucinations, disorganized thinking, abnormal motor behavior) who wasn't an Ne lead or didn't have high D, usually valued Ne, which is all about piercing multiple veils of reality, recognizing ever emergent possibilities and permutations of objects, drawing parallels and associations between seemingly unrelated things, etc.... It shouldn't be difficult to see how Ne gone awry could manifest itself as a distorted perception of reality. Just like any extreme logical type with a 1D ethical function (which can manifest as a biologically induced form of "empathy blindness") could easily be a psychopath (which exists along a spectrum). What makes a disorder a disorder is a disruption of normal physical or mental functions.
    Which part of the highlighted did you not understand? Unlike you, I speak with nuance and subtlety (see the blue) where as you say ridiculous shit like "unhealthy Ne-doms...will never take their hallucinations for reality." That's a far more unreasonable premise than anything I've said. I'm explicitly speaking of how abnormal, distorted functions might manifest based on their capabilities under normal circumstances. Perhaps your hyper sensitivity is clouding your ability to imagine and make rather obvious associations.

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    Ok there might have been a misunderstanding. I agree that my posts are not very nuanced.
    To answer your post, I perfectly understand that this is just a potential connection. What I mean, is, to take your formulation, that this connection is ... ridiculous shit. What has schizophrenia to do with fucking cognitive functions?
    1. Most psychiatric diseases are based on PHYSICAL differences in the brain, like hormones and neuronal pathways. I think it's highly probable that schizophrenic people are different from normal people and that it's not a quantitative difference, but a qualitative one.
    2. As said previously, symptoms and illnesses are not the same. You can't take some external behaviours observed on Ne-doms, extrapolate them to unhealthy levels, and then compare that to other external observations of schizophrenic people without understanding how the illness works. And you call that a "rather obvious association" lol
    3. Socionics is an empirical model based on normal people. How can you expect it to be a valid explanation for diseases? Honestly, linking schizophrenia and Ne-doms is comparing apples and bananas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post
    Here we go >
    Perhaps your hyper sensitivity is clouding your ability to imagine and make rather obvious associations.
    Ad-hominem argument. Out of place and below the belt. I'm done with this discussion.
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 11-30-2019 at 08:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    3. Socionics is an empirical model based on normal people. How can you expect it to be a valid explanation for diseases? Honestly, linking schizophrenia and Ne-doms is comparing apples and bananas.
    Just for the record,
    Socionics is just an abstract representation of thought and action. People that understand this don't think it's a valid explanation for anything, except that. So there's nothing inherently wrong with making associations between psychiatry and socionics, if it's only to represent abstract notions of things.

    It could be that someone with extreme Ne is a lot like a person with schizophrenia and there's nothing wrong with making that association because it's not intended as an explanation for schizophrenia, just a possible representation of similar or superficial behavior.

    Isn't that okay?
    previously Megadoodoo

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoodoo View Post
    Okay, so that's interesting. I think the socionics model is based on or underrided by Jungian dualistic aspects of personality. The idea that we repress certain dualistic aspects of ourselves to serve our egos. And duality has a place in helping with and balancing the repression of complementary egos.

    That said, the psychopath I did know well probably fit best into LSI. However, he was very different compared to other LSIs in that he didn't have the emotions they did to begin with. The other LSIs repressed their emotions in favor of being cold rational people. Once you got to know them, there was a warmness they had. The psychopath LSI didn't repress anything and didn't really show a warmness as I got to know him; he also wasn't someone I could jar on an emotional level. He could however be insulted and annoyed by attempts to degrade him. But that was really it. He was okay to have fun with, but there just wasn't any deep emotions there.

    So I don't know. But if Strat thinks LIEs are best represented as corporate psychopaths, maybe she's conflating TeNi psychopaths with F repressed LIEs. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up before? (maybe it has)
    Yeah, psychopathy exists along a continuum with extents and degrees, though a substantial amount of "empathy blindness" must be present, which is why it could theoretically apply to any sociotype with 1D ethics. Self-described psychopath James Fallon, the author of The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist's Personal Journey into the Dark Side of the Brain, self types as ILE/ENTp--granted, he identifies as "borderline" and "sub-clinical" vs a "categorical" psychopath but he says that the only mitigating circumstance was that he was loved as a child. lol Throughout my life, I'd say that I've most often come across the "sub-clinical" variety who were usually Fi PoLR types (which shouldn't be surprising if you think it through), LSIs (2 of whom were snipers for the US military), and Te leads (LIE > LSE [especially enneagram 8s]). Here is Strat on LIEs>

    - The ability to lead a dangerous and risky game with minimal number of chances,
    - ability to "come out of the water dry" under most difficult and most complicated circumstances,
    - ability to find support (resources, reserves, associates, allies, creditors) in the most critical moment,
    - a talent for leadership, ability to favorably predispose people towards himself, to persuade them, to lead them after oneself,
    - ability to quickly come into trust and to easily strike up friendships,
    - ability to keep imperturbable and to encourage partners by impending good luck and positive prospects in the most desperate, deadend, and hopeless situations,
    - ability to almost instantly (with intuitive insight) come up and think through a plan of action,
    - ability to make time work to his advantage.

    All of these qualities and features of his TIM help the LIE to become extremely successful in all (even if questionable) enterprises.
    - allow the LIE to keep a part of the team, even if with his own actions he "drowns" other team members,
    - allow the LIE to keep afloat in all cases and under any circumstances, to remain on top and in control of the situation at all times,
    - allow him to drive away potential competitors and block the demands for rights of the partners, who have extinguished their material resources as well as their business proactive or creative potential;
    - allow the LIE to displace others from his team while not getting driven away himself.

    Of course, all of these qualities allow the LIE to succeed where others will inevitably "drown" (or "break their necks").
    Gamma Quadra doesn't like entering into competitions and participating in contests and pageants (with the exception of the hungry for a venture, risk-taker and hot-tempered "player" LIE, who is easily drawn into contention)

    ...

    By accusations of inadequacy it is possible (and even then only in the most extreme cases) to bring back to reason and moral sense a degraded, compulsive gambler LIE, Jack, who lives like a parasite on the means of his family and his partner and squanders money with his friends.

    ...

    showing carelessness and deliberate irresponsibility, the LIE depletes the material resources of his partner, redistributing them as "resources of the team" in his favor, and then moves out of his partner's control, playing a role of a self-determined, reckless, uncontrollable, and irresponsible "simpleton", who has no idea about "team relations", thereby attaining unlimited freedom of action (which mutes his own fears on the complex of "tied hands"), and by this simultaneously blocking or hindering the activity of his partner, depriving him or her of financial support, and with it, of the possibility to continue his work further and to control the intentional use of their shared material resources.

    ...

    Striving in all cases to remain in control of the situation, the LIE tries to control ethical relationships and model them in a way that is convenient for him, trying to extract from them maximum benefits for himself and his future plans. Wanting to remove all obstacles and eliminate all hindrances that arise on his way, LIE blocks professional and business activity of his partners, depriving them of financial (and therefore legal) support.
    Puzzling his partner and putting him at an impasse with his "wild" and "most absurd" escapades, the LIE often plays the role of an unpredictable, unruly person (with no reason in his head), who, nevertheless, dashes to undertake something, to keep up everywhere, to control everyone, to make friends with all, and to build relations in a clear-cut, organized, and spotless manner (despite his own chaotic and inconsistent behaviors). As a result, all that the LIE achieves on the level of personal agreements, he proceeds to destroy by his own contradictory actions, making an impression of an unprincipled, irresponsible, and dishonest person (especially when it comes to appropriation of the material resources of others).
    - But this does not apply absolutely to all members of this TIM ...
    lol@the highlighted. Compare all that to what's found here in this rather sensationalist article (written by Robert Hare, the man who created the Hare Psychopathy Checklist and wrote Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work): https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/a...ing-psychopath

    In the Snakes in Suits book, Hare notes:

    Several abilities – skills, actually – make it difficult to see psychopaths for who they are. First, they are motivated to, and have a talent for, ‘reading people’ and for sizing them up quickly. They identify a person’s likes and dislikes, motives, needs, weak spots, and vulnerabilities… Second, many psychopaths come across as having excellent oral communication skills. In many cases, these skills are more apparent than real because of their readiness to jump right into a conversation without the social inhibitions that hamper most people… Third, they are masters of impression management; their insight into the psyche of others combined with a superficial – but convincing – verbal fluency allows them to change their situation skillfully as it suits the situation and their game plan.


    The authors also note that many psychopaths, of course, are not suited for the business environment:


    Some do not have enough social or communication skill or education to interact successfully with others, relying instead on threats, coercion, intimidation, and violence to dominate others and to get what they want. Typically, such individuals are manifestly aggressive and rather nasty, and unlikely to charm victims into submission, relying on their bullying approach instead. This book (Snakes in Suits) is less about them than about those who are willing to use their ‘deadly charm’ to con and manipulate others.
    IME, Se valuing, especially strong, high D Se valuing psychopathic types are more likely to go down this particular path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Ok there might have been a misunderstanding. I agree that my posts are not very nuanced.
    To answer your post, I perfectly understand that this is just a potential connection. What I mean, is, to take your formulation, that this connection is ... ridiculous shit. What has schizophrenia to do with fucking cognitive functions?
    1. Most psychiatric diseases are based on PHYSICAL differences in the brain, like hormones and neuronal pathways. I think it's highly probable that schizophrenic people are different from normal people and that it's not a quantitative difference, but a qualitative one.
    2. As said previously, symptoms and illnesses are not the same. You can't take some external behaviours observed on Ne-doms, extrapolate them to unhealthy levels, and then compare that to other external observations of schizophrenic people without understanding how the illness works. And you call that a "rather obvious association" lol
    3. Socionics is an empirical model based on normal people. How can you expect it to be a valid explanation for diseases? Honestly, linking schizophrenia and Ne-doms is comparing apples and bananas.



    Ad-hominem argument. Out of place and below the belt. I'm done with this discussion.
    I'm glad you're done with the discussion because you brought nothing to it, anyway, which is why you would have been better off not commenting at all. And, unsurprisingly, you inaccurately invoked the ad hominem fallacy--I was not attacking your character (instead of your argument) but legitimately referring to high D Fi's penchant towards touchiness and hypersensitivity, which, theoretically, could certainly obstruct/limit/reduce/minimize phenomena that negatively impacts it, which then might limit your ability to be objective. Perhaps this is what happens when those with a diminished capacity to differentiate Te related information attempt to do so and fail to understand how that information is to be accurately applied. Again, not an adhominem, just positing theoretically assumptions.

    [From a Ni and Vortical Synergistic POV] I'm of the mind that typology systems like MBTI/Socionics/Enneagram are, more or less, essentially attempting to label/categorize/describe the same underlying phenomena--it's just each system may have a set of "flaws," idiosyncrasies, and inconsistencies that obscure Ni's ability to adequately reduce them to something more "whole," comprehensive and inclusive. I tend to believe that there are discernible trends and patterns in many systems that point towards something more correlative, in sync, and less messy/inconsistent, which is why I don't find it inherently unreasonable to make certain associations that connect/unite these trends and patterns. And in so much as Socionics attempts to provide a theoretical model for the human psyche (including its biological under pinnings, i.e., information metabolism), a degree of disorder and abnormality (in that these things are intrinsic to the human experience) must exist within that model/framework. Like I've already pointed out in the posts above concerning LIEs, some Socionists have all but directly labeled (according to widely accepted Te criteria) the extreme/potentially "disordered" manifestations of the sociotypes. More of the wonderful Strat, but this time on IEEs and Delta Quadra >

    In this way, for example, in an effort to show herself as an outstanding folk healer, one sweet lady of type IEE, Huxley, a physician's assistant with extensive work experience, experimented with the healing properties of raw potatoes on her children and grandchildren, insisting on them being a universal alternative to all existing medicines. Using raw potatoes as a supposed effective remedy for healing wounds, she forbade her children to treat their cuts and wounds with a disinfectant (a solution of alcohol or iodine) and instead made them hold a tampon filled with grated, raw potatoes to their cuts. Many times she has tried this household "curative" remedy, and the result was always the same: an abscess would start, the child suffered, she urged him to be patient and wait a little longer: "The pain will soon pass and you will feel good!". Only when the inflammation was rampant and the children developed a fever, would she send them to a clinic and allow them to get treated there. (Feverish and sick, they had to sit in reception, wait in line for their turn, then explain themselves before the doctors.) Over the years, she ran such experiments alternately on her children and grandchildren, who lived under the same roof with her for a long time, who were under her constant influence, under her watchful medical supervision, fully trusting and obeying her in all, despite the fact that her tips each time brought them to trouble. Ignoring the real, the actual results of this "therapy", she cheerfully reported about the alleged successes to her friends, telling them about the miraculous properties of the raw potato, and urged them to practice this method, referring to the fact that "for her grandson these potato lotions helped". Expanding her circle friends, she announced and asserted herself as a successful folk medicine healer, and continued to use the people in her household as a reserve for new experiments.
    I dunno, sounds pretty "delusional" to me. LOL

    The feeling of regret left behind by lost hopes and shattered illusions, the dissatisfaction with the surrounding world, the unwillingness to accept it with its rough and brutal realities, the fears and concerns of one's inability to change the world for the better, become the "other side of the coin" - the negative side effect of the dominating in Delta Quadra aspects (+Te +Fi -Ne -Si) - and create the preconditions for a double-standard approach to life. They form the ideological concepts that allow a person to leave this harsh reality for an alternative transcendental world (dominant traits of "aristocracy" and "judiciousness") and simultaneously keep the person in the real world by fear of getting pushed out due to objective reasons (dominant feature of "objectivism"). These factors create tendencies that allow Delta Quadra (intuitive types) to influence the conditions of formation of relationships in the world, in order to ultimately improve them and bring them to a high level of purity and beauty, by means of which it is intended to bring together the real world with the world of the desired (and imaginary), thereby making the real world more welcoming and comfortable for people of the finest spiritual nature.
    Failure to reach this goal by simple and accessible means in the foreseeable short periods of time leads ethical intuitive ("child-like") types of Delta Quadra fall into despair, forcing them to resort to searches for new alternative (and often illusory) conditions for existence, in which (in their opinion) the real world won't be much different from the imagined.

    ...

    Lies for saving illusions, hopes, wishful thinking, creative and life plans - is a widespread phenomenon in Delta Quadra (chiefly among the Delta intuitive types), ​​a manifestation of the complex of "clipped wings", a development of protective measures for it, and also a derivative of the program of achieving full happiness by means of "life with rose-colored glasses". This comes from that very same fear of disappointment in the realities of the everyday world, that gets combined with the fear of getting pushed out of cozy and comfortable existence in an idealistic microcosm into the ruthlessly brutal world of harsh surrounding reality.

    One only has to embellish one's reality with impressive fictional events, pulling up the actual towards the desired, and adding to this personal conviction in one's correctness, motivating these actions by good intentions, that the intolerably gray and humdrum reality begins to sparkle with bright colors and new bright future prospects. Then imaginary reality will organically merge with the real one, and fruits of the play of imagination will become fruits of artistic creation - and there's nothing wrong with this. The person who by virtue of inexperience or naivete doesn't distinguish the real from the imagined will be at "fault" himself for this error - he will fall victim of his own or another's deception. In any case, the "creator" of the "image" won't consider himself to be "guilty". His job - is to push the boundaries of the reality in order to amend it with another. And if to be successful in this one has to distort facts, either darken or lighten one's prognoses, toss up some long-term plans, there is also nothing wrong with this (in his opinion), especially if it will help a person achieve a lot in life, to believe in himself and in his own strengths, to pick his path. The "creator" is not worried by the fact that a lie is still a lie - with the help of his interpretation it turns into a convenient tool for modeling a new and better reality for himself and for others, it becomes extensive means of psychological manipulation, which become the more justified by good intentions the more opportunities they open in the framework of this new "imaginary" reality, needed by him to achieve personal plans and goals.
    Gee, I wonder if taken to the extreme, what type of disorder this behavior might be implicating? LOL Feel free to stay mad.

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    People talking about physical comfort ironically makes me uncomfortable, so, in terms of information elements, Si might well be my least favored one. As far as actual personalities go, I like everyone, so the answer is: no type. I don't even dislike people who are focused on Si--they' just give weight to an area that I don't happen to value as much as some people do. That being said, my worst interaction was with a probable ISFp--an obvious caregiver type, into all things Ne, fairly sensitive, and very artistic. Our personalities were superficially compatible, and that kept me coming back to someone who was, in fact, an extremely poisonous individual (in the brief time I knew him, four of his close friendships went up in raging flames). Whatever his personality was, in terms of socionics and everything else, I do not want to encounter it again.

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    EII, EIE.

    Dumb and stubborn is a terrible combination, and being fake, manipulative, and having a God complex is pretty abhorrent. Not saying everyone of these types exhibits these qualities, but there is a definitely a tendency towards it. I actually really like mentally healthy EIEs, maybe more than healthy examples of other types, but since this thread is about dislike, its probably more appropriate to evaluate my thoughts of types at their worst rather than at their best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Ok there might have been a misunderstanding. I agree that my posts are not very nuanced.
    To answer your post, I perfectly understand that this is just a potential connection. What I mean, is, to take your formulation, that this connection is ... ridiculous shit. What has schizophrenia to do with fucking cognitive functions?
    1. Most psychiatric diseases are based on PHYSICAL differences in the brain, like hormones and neuronal pathways. I think it's highly probable that schizophrenic people are different from normal people and that it's not a quantitative difference, but a qualitative one.
    2. As said previously, symptoms and illnesses are not the same. You can't take some external behaviours observed on Ne-doms, extrapolate them to unhealthy levels, and then compare that to other external observations of schizophrenic people without understanding how the illness works. And you call that a "rather obvious association" lol
    3. Socionics is an empirical model based on normal people. How can you expect it to be a valid explanation for diseases? Honestly, linking schizophrenia and Ne-doms is comparing apples and bananas.



    Ad-hominem argument. Out of place and below the belt. I'm done with this discussion.
    Aren't types also based on physical differences? All things involve physical differences, but rarely is that the best description. Personally, I consider schizophrenia a neurological illness and things like oppositional defiance disorder are simply moral problems rather than illnesses of any kind.

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    A lot of people at my workplace hate this one ESE chick and disagree with how the ESE male managers operate so there might really be something to the dislike of ESEs, especially the girls.

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    ILI. "The Critic" sounds objectively worthless. They can't do anything, so they just be cynical and judgmental about everyone else.

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    Actually, why is ILI such a popular type here when they are named "The Critic?" On the other hand alpha SFs are hated despite sounding like they're quite pleasant.

    That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    A lot of people at my workplace hate this one ESE chick and disagree with how the ESE male managers operate so there might really be something to the dislike of ESEs, especially the girls.
    Yes. ESEs sound like happy people and unhappy people tend to hate that.

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    This is truly a rare occasion, I actual agree with @coeruleum on this. I have no clue why the ILI isn't hated on more. If you think about it we are contradictory beings. We wish for a prosperous life, but we are lazy, we seek to be stoic, but seek moral support, we ooze pragmatism, but reliant on our intuition. We are disgusting to people on average and the people we do like, we are terrible showing our affection for them. On top of all of this, when we do get up and put our mind to a goal; we have no qualms stepping on peoples toes and resorting to trickery to accomplish it.

    Evidence of our atrocious nature is in the fact our conflict is the ESE who are go-getters, help the community, socially diligent, etc. People tend to hate on these attributes on personality theory forums because they are absolutely the ideal talents and motivations for rising social hierarchy. Let's be honest, many people on this forum (and many other cognitive function theory forums) are intuitives and have inclination towards social reservation and as a result aren't going to be high on the social ladder. As of a result they feel a bit of admiration for a type that seems destined to be at the bottom (or at least near it) of the social hierarchy, but are capable of achieving success (material) without closely adhering to rules set by those of higher social status than them.

    At the same time, I believe this admiration is misplaced for the reasons stated earlier. I remember seeing a comic that was supposed to represent the duality between ILI's and SEE's. It consisted of of the SEE cartoon throwing themselves (physically and emotionally) at the ILI cartoon despite how little effort and attention emanates from the ILI. At one point, the SEE holds up a picture of a ugly monster, and says something like "Even if you looked like this, I would still love you." In the end the ILI falls in loves with the SEE. I mean if you think about it, that is what this duality represents. A hunter who has fallen in love with an ugly monster as they know this ugly monster can provide order and wisdom that the hunter desires once they are caught. Despite their high social status they don't care what their friends and family would say when they bring this monster home because at heart they don't care about this social hierarchy. However, eventually they know they are going to need this social status to get something they want (like admiration). So they "groom" the monster to be bearable enough to look at. This grooming isn't necessarily from a selfish place. They truly desire to help the monster obtain the status needed to effectively use its talents to achieve its goals.

    A Quote that I personally believe accurately describes my existence:
    There are many types of monsters that scare me: Monsters who cause trouble without showing themselves, monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood... and then, monsters who tell nothing but lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance: They are much more cunning than others. They pose as humans even though they have no understanding of the human heart; they eat even though they've never experienced hunger; they study even though they have no interest in academics; they seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such monsters, I would likely be eaten by them... because in truth, I am that monster.”

    The description of the lying monster is not an exaggeration, everyone of its attributes could be assigned to me. I have been blessed (very undeservedly) with an abundance food, but I rarely get hungry (I force myself to eat). I study even though I don't have any interest in benefitting society or academia (it is just a means to an end), I seek social interaction/friendship/love, but I am horrible at supporting my friends and dedicating time to their well-being (though I try to do better). I once met another ILI, and on one occasion he realized one of my tricks and ever since then I made sure my cunning stepped up about 10 notches. In truth, if I didn't, I would be eaten alive. It is a power-struggle that I have to win.

    If Gammas showed their genuine self all the time, no one would like us. Which is why we develop methods to mask ourselves as we move forward to complete our goals. Even among this basket of social outcasts, the ILI is at the bottom. I could easily see why someone would hate me and I would not hold it against them.

    All the same, I couldn't picture myself being anyone else, neither do I want to be and I am thankful for all attributes that I was born with.

    It is not that I don't love people; I just don't know to love. In fact, if your really close to me, I probably love you more than you think is humanly possible. As a result, to make up for being a terrible monster, I put monstrous effort to see you are well taken care of.
    Last edited by Investigator; 12-30-2019 at 07:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Yes. ESEs sound like happy people and unhappy people tend to hate that
    I don’t think unhappy people tend to dislike happy people by default unless they’re also pathetic and can’t do anything about it (hence ILI-ESE conflict?). ESEs are also quite fake, and their happiness often seems forced or due to things others view as superficial. Being EJ means they’re often in positions of power and control, so they don’t get told complaints or criticism about them as often as others do, and don’t get to reflect (or just don’t realize how they come across in terms of behavior because of weaker intuition). This person I’m talking about isn’t that bad in reality (IMO), but still there’s only her, and another obese INTx chick who all my colleagues complain about at work.

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    Probably LSE. I work with an LSE manager and his micromanaging and bullying behaviour is annoying af. And we can almost never agree on anything. That being said socionics says EII is the worst ITR for me but i havent really been able to identify them as of yet. I guess the environments im seeing myself in are more Beta in general

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Probably LSE. I work with an LSE manager and his micromanaging and bullying behaviour is annoying af. And we can almost never agree on anything. That being said socionics says EII is the worst ITR for me but i havent really been able to identify them as of yet. I guess the environments im seeing myself in are more Beta in general
    I was looking at the picture of the women that you work with and I think that the one with antlers might be EII.

    But I personally don’t think that the worst ITR is Conflict. I think the worst is Quasi-Identical, because your Conflictors work in other areas, but Quasi-Identicals are always getting in your shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I was looking at the picture of the women that you work with and I think that the one with antlers might be EII.

    But I personally don’t think that the worst ITR is Conflict. I think the worst is Quasi-Identical, because your Conflictors work in other areas, but Quasi-Identicals are always getting in your shit.
    She's actually IEI but yeah, close. That or I'm an LSE also, lol. Probably not. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    This is truly a rare occasion, I actual agree with @coeruleum on this. I have no clue why the ILI isn't hated on more. If you think about it we are contradictory beings. We wish for a prosperous life, but we are lazy, we seek to be stoic, but seek moral support, we ooze pragmatism, but reliant on our intuition. We are disgusting to people on average and the people we do like, we are terrible showing our affection for them. On top of all of this, when we do get up and put our mind to a goal; we have no qualms stepping on peoples toes and resorting to trickery to accomplish it.

    Evidence of our atrocious nature is in the fact our conflict is the ESE who are go-getters, help the community, socially diligent, etc. People tend to hate on these attributes on personality theory forums because they are absolutely the ideal talents and motivations for rising social hierarchy. Let's be honest, many people on this forum (and many other cognitive function theory forums) are intuitives and have inclination towards social reservation and as a result aren't going to be high on the social ladder. As of a result they feel a bit of admiration for a type that seems destined to be at the bottom (or at least near it) of the social hierarchy, but are capable of achieving success (material) without closely adhering to rules set by those of higher social status than them.

    At the same time, I believe this admiration is misplaced for the reasons stated earlier. I remember seeing a comic that was supposed to represent the duality between ILI's and SEE's. It consisted of of the SEE cartoon throwing themselves (physically and emotionally) at the ILI cartoon despite how little effort and attention emanates from the ILI. At one point, the SEE holds up a picture of a ugly monster, and says something like "Even if you looked like this, I would still love you." In the end the ILI falls in loves with the SEE. I mean if you think about it, that is what this duality represents. A hunter who has fallen in love with an ugly monster as they know this ugly monster can provide order and wisdom that the hunter desires once they are caught. Despite their high social status they don't care what their friends and family would say when they bring this monster home because at heart they don't care about this social hierarchy. However, eventually they know they are going to need this social status to get something they want (like admiration). So they "groom" the monster to be bearable enough to look at. This grooming isn't necessarily from a selfish place. They truly desire to help the monster obtain the status needed to effectively use its talents to achieve its goals.

    A Quote that I personally believe accurately describes my existence:
    There are many types of monsters that scare me: Monsters who cause trouble without showing themselves, monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood... and then, monsters who tell nothing but lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance: They are much more cunning than others. They pose as humans even though they have no understanding of the human heart; they eat even though they've never experienced hunger; they study even though they have no interest in academics; they seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such monsters, I would likely be eaten by them... because in truth, I am that monster.”

    The description of the lying monster is not an exaggeration, everyone of its attributes could be assigned to me. I have been blessed (very undeservedly) with an abundance food, but I rarely get hungry (I force myself to eat). I study even though I don't have any interest in benefitting society or academia (it is just a means to an end), I seek social interaction/friendship/love, but I am horrible at supporting my friends and dedicating time to their well-being (though I try to do better). I once met another ILI, and on one occasion he realized one of my tricks and ever since then I made sure my cunning stepped up about 10 notches. In truth, if I didn't, I would be eaten alive. It is a power-struggle that I have to win.

    If Gammas showed their genuine self all the time, no one would like us. Which is why we develop methods to mask ourselves as we move forward to complete our goals. Even among this basket of social outcasts, the ILI is at the bottom. I could easily see why someone would hate me and I would not hold it against them.

    All the same, I couldn't picture myself being anyone else, neither do I want to be and I am thankful for all attributes that I was born with.

    It is not that I don't love people; I just don't know to love. In fact, if your really close to me, I probably love you more than you think is humanly possible. As a result, to make up for being a terrible monster, I put monstrous effort to see you are well taken care of.
    Wow, you really seem to hate yourself.
    I get what you are trying to say, but i have to disagree in a some points.
    First, being an NT does not really predispose you to an place on a hierarchy. There are many different (social) groups and people can fall or work their place at the hierarchy despite being any type.
    SFs are better at all of this social stuff, but how will you use this to come up a military hierarchy or become a respected member of a philosophy circle for example. Hierarchy depends on many things and i guess what we can say is, that ESE cares a lot more about it as ESXj and Ethical than a lot of NTs, especially IP NTs.

    Also your description of ESEs does not really match my expierence, I know useful ESEs and i know nice ESEs, but the most cruel people i have ever witnessed were ESE.
    Their Fi ignoring and lack of Ni gives a lot of them an unreflected way to interact with others, following the whims of their emotions and mistreating and disregarding the needs and feelings of their surroundings, while being well informed on them which becomes evident when they use them to their own gain.

    I can't follow your conclusion how ILIs or NTs in general are destined to be at the bottom of a social hierachy. When i am at the top, there certantly won't be anybody on the bottom who does not earn it in a way for example as the way described in the paragraph above. Social hierachies, which i really think are a terrible concept, at least how you describe them, don't exist in an objective way and are never everywhere the same. They are defined by people and interactions. Your thinking seems to be very Ti-Fe there which could explain why you hate your own quadra so much, since you seem to have internalized Values from another Quadra to that degree. A lot of Gammas are very respected and and well positioned in their relation systems and if not they will propably leave very soon because their quadra Values would not allow them to be mistreated without fighting back. I guess being an Outcast is more Related to your Flow stacking, and also by compatibility and contrast.

    If you are beautiful and under envious ugly people you can very quickly become an outcast,
    smart and surrounded by dumb people, you will propably not fit in,
    moral and surrounded by machiavellistic sociopaths, propably also not the most popular.
    Its all very relative and depending on the circumstances, is what i am trying to say.

    Also, no, if Gammas showed their genuine self all the time, propably only other Gammas, Deltas and Betas would like them. Mostly other Gammas.
    Gammas are great people and i would love to have more Gammas of matching instincts in my life.
    Gammas are usually moral, Efficient, no bullshit, honest (SEE usually keeps it at a tolerable level), Loyal and not afraid to stand up for what they believe. They do not shy away from confrontation when it is about their Values and Friends and will usually not fuck you over.

    I can't see how a blabbering, superficially nice but backstabbing, manipulative and machiavellistic ESE, (most that i know are) should be any better than an Honest but reserved, Hard working, Insightful and adhering to principles ILI.

    Of course i am biased, and yes, even though i know one nice and one okay ESE i really do dislike them in general. They are a terrible Super-Ego because they are too dumb to reflect that the Polr hits they get from my normal Te-Ni usage are not an attack and that their problem lies in themselves. Instead they usually try to bully me and tell on me as soon as I react in a mild or appropriate way.

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    @Itsme lol . that's stereotypes bully SEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsme View Post
    Wow, you really seem to hate yourself.
    I get what you are trying to say, but i have to disagree in a some points.
    First, being an NT does not really predispose you to an place on a hierarchy. There are many different (social) groups and people can fall or work their place at the hierarchy despite being any type.
    SFs are better at all of this social stuff, but how will you use this to come up a military hierarchy or become a respected member of a philosophy circle for example. Hierarchy depends on many things and i guess what we can say is, that ESE cares a lot more about it as ESXj and Ethical than a lot of NTs, especially IP NTs.

    Also your description of ESEs does not really match my expierence, I know useful ESEs and i know nice ESEs, but the most cruel people i have ever witnessed were ESE.
    Their Fi ignoring and lack of Ni gives a lot of them an unreflected way to interact with others, following the whims of their emotions and mistreating and disregarding the needs and feelings of their surroundings, while being well informed on them which becomes evident when they use them to their own gain.

    I can't follow your conclusion how ILIs or NTs in general are destined to be at the bottom of a social hierachy. When i am at the top, there certantly won't be anybody on the bottom who does not earn it in a way for example as the way described in the paragraph above. Social hierachies, which i really think are a terrible concept, at least how you describe them, don't exist in an objective way and are never everywhere the same. They are defined by people and interactions. Your thinking seems to be very Ti-Fe there which could explain why you hate your own quadra so much, since you seem to have internalized Values from another Quadra to that degree. A lot of Gammas are very respected and and well positioned in their relation systems and if not they will propably leave very soon because their quadra Values would not allow them to be mistreated without fighting back. I guess being an Outcast is more Related to your Flow stacking, and also by compatibility and contrast.

    If you are beautiful and under envious ugly people you can very quickly become an outcast,
    smart and surrounded by dumb people, you will propably not fit in,
    moral and surrounded by machiavellistic sociopaths, propably also not the most popular.
    Its all very relative and depending on the circumstances, is what i am trying to say.

    Also, no, if Gammas showed their genuine self all the time, propably only other Gammas, Deltas and Betas would like them. Mostly other Gammas.
    Gammas are great people and i would love to have more Gammas of matching instincts in my life.
    Gammas are usually moral, Efficient, no bullshit, honest (SEE usually keeps it at a tolerable level), Loyal and not afraid to stand up for what they believe. They do not shy away from confrontation when it is about their Values and Friends and will usually not fuck you over.

    I can't see how a blabbering, superficially nice but backstabbing, manipulative and machiavellistic ESE, (most that i know are) should be any better than an Honest but reserved, Hard working, Insightful and adhering to principles ILI.

    Of course i am biased, and yes, even though i know one nice and one okay ESE i really do dislike them in general. They are a terrible Super-Ego because they are too dumb to reflect that the Polr hits they get from my normal Te-Ni usage are not an attack and that their problem lies in themselves. Instead they usually try to bully me and tell on me as soon as I react in a mild or appropriate way.
    1. I don’t hate myself. I believe I already mentioned this.

    2. I don’t naturally respect social hierarchies, but sometimes climbing them is the efficient course of action. Sometimes you climb them without knowing.

    3. I agree, gammas love each other’s genuine side.

    4. I find us Gamma types tame ourselves around people non Gamma types.

    5. Yes, I agree SF are pretty good at working social ladders. However, Gamma SF’s don’t value these systems, while Alpha SF’s care lot about their placement in them.

    6. NT among the clubs should be obviously be on the bottom, we don’t involve our selves that often and we prioritize the development of thoughts and plans over thinking about diplomatic strategies, image, humanties etc. At least the LII and the ILE care about getting along with others (though ILE’s are bad at figuring out what is offensive and LII’s are bad at competitive social situations).

    7. I assure you the social hierarchies I talked about exist wherever you go. Try winning class president without a few friends. Try winning that competitive corporate job without being able deflect the social hits that come your way via the other competitors.

    8. I didn’t say I was outcast. I am quite sociable and I get along with most peopple (outside of the internet, haha). It is just my genuine thoughts a lot of the time step outside of what is considered acceptable.

    9. It is interesting that you have met such horrible ESE’s. At their worse, I do not find them more manipulative than say an EIE. What happens, if they care too much about their image, they push even love ones to the side (I believe such actions are among the worst). My dual can be manipulative in their pursuit of power and admiration, but I rarely find much issues with their actions. For one, they don’t aim their fire at their inner circle (even when unhealthy) and also I find that I have the capacity to carry out such actions.

    10. Maybe you are misunderstanding my thoughts, as I stated that we ILI are “perceived” as destined for the bottom, but through cunning (not actual concern for people) we rise from the ashes to succeed. We are the “monster rising from the ashes.”

    11. I believed I already talked about why good Gamma leaders are respected. The run down, is despite the fact that we might be crafty, domineering, and/or even controversial our followers stayed despite knowing our flaws because they fell in love with our well made mission and the results we that we constantly acheive pertaining to that mission (i.e Otto van Bismarck, LIE).

    12. Overall I think you missed the underlying theme of what I was talking about.
    Last edited by Investigator; 01-02-2020 at 09:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PussyInASarcophagus View Post
    EIIs. They're usually useless, butt of all pranks, overly sensitive and don't know when to stop when they fulfill their Se for once in their diaper stricken lifetimes.
    My guess is that Se-PoLR is what makes one overly-sensitive:

    You have me: overly-sensitive abstract thinker/model-builder.

    Typical LII: overly-sensitive geek/programmer/data scientist

    Typical EII: overly-sensitive warm, fatherly/motherly person.

    That is simply my guess, maybe even to the point that I wonder if Se-PoLR has something to do with E9 or E4 and Se-ego with E8 in the Enneagram...
    Last edited by jason_m; 01-02-2020 at 05:52 AM.

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    hmm I'm not sensitive at all, I just hate it when people try to force me to do things. I get aggressive and irritated when I interact with Se dominant types, but it rarely happens, since I don't spend time in their enviroment. I rarely meet them irl.
    my ideas about socionics:

    https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/

    the section will be updated ever other month or so.

    this is a VI thread with IEI examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)

    and this is a thread with EIE examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples

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    Quote Originally Posted by karas View Post
    @Itsme lol . that's stereotypes bully SEE
    In the Super-Ego descriptions it is described that it is usually the sensing type who attacks the intuitive type.

    Laima Stankevichyute, "Intertype relations"
    In these relations, there is a constant feeling that your partner is purposefully doing everything wrong, disregarding your wishes and needs, and trying to deliberately frustrate you. Sensing types in these relations are often inclined to enact attempts at revenge against intuitive types. Intuitive types are inclined to often criticize the sensing types, recalling and listing all the evils that they have committed against them.
    So yes, what you said is just as much in line with the theory as my experiences with ESE
    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post

    6. NT among the clubs should be obviously be on the bottom, we don’t involve our selves that often and we prioritize the development of thoughts and plans over thinking about diplomatic strategies, image, humanties etc. At least the LII and the ILE care about getting along with others (though ILE’s are bad at figuring out what is offensive and LII’s are bad at competitive social situations).

    7. I assure you the social hierarchies I talked about exist wherever you go. Try winning class president without a few friends. Try winning that competitive corporate without being able deflect the social hits that come your way via the other competitors.

    8. I didn’t say I was outcast. I am quite sociable and I get along with most peopple (outside of the internet, haha). It is just my genuine thoughts a lot of the time step outside of what is considered acceptable.

    9. It is interesting that you have met such horrible ESE’s. At their worse, I do not find them more manipulative than say an EIE. What happens, if they care too much about their image, they push even love ones to the side (I believe such actions are among the worst). My dual can be manipulative in their pursuit of power and admiration, but I rarely find much issues with their actions. For one, they don’t aim their fire at their inner circle (even when unhealthy) and also I find that I have the capacity to carry out such actions.

    10. Maybe you are misunderstanding my thoughts, as I stated that we ILI are “perceived” as destined for the bottom, but through cunning (not actual concern for people) we rise from the ashes to succeed. We are the “monster rising from the ashes.”

    11. I believed I already talked about why good Gamma leaders are respected. The run down, is despite the fact that we might be crafty, domineering, and/or even controversial our followers stayed despite knowing our flaws because they fell in love with our well made mission and the results we that we constantly acheive pertaining to that mission (i.e Otto van Bismarck, LIE).

    12. Overall I think you missed the underlying theme of what I was talking about.
    I do agree with your prior points.

    I do think it really depends on the club. Yes being Class president as an NT will be difficult, except when you are maybe in a same quadra environment and then you would probably step back from this anyways because you will usually not care about it as much as SFs.
    I don't see why you can't be a respected member of the group and have to be at the bottom of a hierarchy because of that though.
    In a corporate situation i think it is a lot easier for especially Gamma NTs to compete.
    You see the potential, you have the Te, you see the development. You can encourage your opponents to wrong moves which you foresee and move a lot more confident around of logical structures.
    Also you can still build alliances it just won't come that natural to you. Also there is a lot of luck, if the Judge is a Same Quadra person for example he could be as disgusted as you by the shallow sf manipulations directed at the audience.

    Those are my experiences usually with Dominant DCNH ESEs who also happened to be 8s or 3s to some degree, so yes, maybe i am biased. Still those people were cause of a lot of suffering on my side.
    Also, i guess Super ego is much worse than conflictor. I usually don't clash with my conflictor. I tried to befriend one once, and we both noticed that we don't really like each other and separated quickly, but that's about it. I also had trouble with an unhealthy 6 SEI but it was mostly on his side, and not really that much type related. I don't know if you get along with SEIs worse or if they are easier in general, or if super ego between introvims is smoother, not sure about that.

    Yes maybe the "rising from the ashes" part did not really stuck with me. I mean i know the intention, and I'm a victim too, so yes i also get why you would belittle yourself as a monster and your cute hot and good hearted SEE dual will be your saving queen. I guess i see where its coming from, I still felt a bit offended myself about how you described Gamma Quadra and also your own type. I really like ILIs they usually don't get enough credit at least the smart ones, and i did not want leave the offensive things you wrote about my mirror type and our quadra in general uncommented.
    Also i do think that most ILIs care a lot about people, they have Fi hidden agenda after all.

    I did not mean to rain in your parade, and i get the Fi side of what you were writing, and yes it is kinda cute, i just did not like how belittling of NTs Gammas and ILIs it came off at some points. I think people can be great and say that they are great and still find a hot cute and good hearted SEE queen who will save them from superficial chichtat and social intrigues.

  29. #149

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    EII. Oversensitive, self-righteous, and more focused on peace than getting anything done. Especially the 9-1-2 zone.

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    None, cuz yall my wayward children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    My guess is that Se-PoLR is what makes one overly-sensitive:

    Typical LII: overly-sensitive geek/programmer/data scientist

    I think I was that way until I reached age 30.

    Si valued and 1D Se unvalued might not be easy to handle for a person irl, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    hmm I'm not sensitive at all, I just hate it when people try to force me to do things.

    The threshold what you perceive as being forced might be lower compared to other people, that can be seen as being sensitive in that matter.

    And I dislike being forced by other people either, but if they can convince me, provide facts and arguments I don't perceive it as being forced.

    Maybe NT types have a hard time following orders from other people in general.

    And I doubt that it's mainly the Socionics type of a person of I can't stand somebody.

    Last edited by WinnieW; 01-02-2020 at 10:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post

    I think I was that way until I reached age 30.

    Si valued and 1D Se unvalued might not be easy to handle for a person irl, I guess.



    The threshold what you perceive as being forced might be lower compared to other people, that can be seen as being sensitive in that matter.

    And I dislike being forced by other people either, but if they can convince me, provide facts and arguments I don't perceive it as being forced.

    Maybe NT types have a hard time following orders from other people in general.

    And I doubt that it's mainly the Socionics type of a person of I can't stand somebody.

    I know an LII from fraternity and we get along well. One thing thats funny about his Se polr is that whenever I shake him or pat him on the shoulder he looks visibly shook and disorientated, as if I just insulted his mom or something and he doesnt know what to do. But I just do it in a friendly way but still he overreacts, its kinda funny and sad how supervision works

  33. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    I know an LII from fraternity and we get along well. One thing thats funny about his Se polr is that whenever I shake him or pat him on the shoulder he looks visibly shook and disorientated, as if I just insulted his mom or something and he doesnt know what to do. But I just do it in a friendly way but still he overreacts, its kinda funny and sad how supervision works
    I remember a week ago that an SLE coworker that I don't know that well openly mentioned to me that I'm pretty shy, because I speak very quietly. I was internally really pissed off for some reason, but I left without saying anything. it seems to me that hitting the vulnerable function always leads to a heavy, instinctive reaction without the other person even noticing why it happens. yeah, it's really sad that conflict and supervision exists, considering that most people don't know about it.
    my ideas about socionics:

    https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/

    the section will be updated ever other month or so.

    this is a VI thread with IEI examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)

    and this is a thread with EIE examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples

  34. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    I remember a week ago that an SLE coworker that I don't know that well openly mentioned to me that I'm pretty shy, because I speak very quietly. I was internally really pissed off for some reason, but I left without saying anything. it seems to me that hitting the vulnerable function always leads to a heavy, instinctive reaction without the other person even noticing why it happens. yeah, it's really sad that conflict and supervision exists, considering that most people don't know about it.
    This seems odd for him to mention IMO, mainly because if that’s the case then you probably already know it. I wouldn’t ascribe the trait of shyness to a low speaking volume either, necessarily. I’d probably feel neutral about it rather than being pissed off though.

    Would you say you felt pissed off because his comment about how he sees how you act in reality seemed kind of pointless and overbearing/presumptuous? Maybe a little bit self-righteous too somehow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    One thing thats funny about his Se polr is that whenever I shake him or pat him on the shoulder he looks visibly shook and disorientated...
    Yeah, I can't stand it either being touch by someboody when it's happend unexpectedly for me or I'm not prepared for it.

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    I don't dislike them but ILEs tend to give a bad first impression. In a group environment, they strike me as emotionally erratic and socially unreliable. Online, I often have to block them and only unblock after a period of time to see if they've calmed down. I enjoy them a lot more one-on-one or in a balanced trio.

    LIIs and IEEs don't bother me in the same way. SLEs occasionally do but not as severely.

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    SEE. I've never known any other type that was so insistent on having its way and utterly convinced that what they want is right. Also, they tend to be extremely manipulative in my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    This is truly a rare occasion, I actual agree with @coeruleum on this. I have no clue why the ILI isn't hated on more. If you think about it we are contradictory beings. We wish for a prosperous life, but we are lazy, we seek to be stoic, but seek moral support, we ooze pragmatism, but reliant on our intuition. We are disgusting to people on average and the people we do like, we are terrible showing our affection for them. On top of all of this, when we do get up and put our mind to a goal; we have no qualms stepping on peoples toes and resorting to trickery to accomplish it.

    Evidence of our atrocious nature is in the fact our conflict is the ESE who are go-getters, help the community, socially diligent, etc. People tend to hate on these attributes on personality theory forums because they are absolutely the ideal talents and motivations for rising social hierarchy. Let's be honest, many people on this forum (and many other cognitive function theory forums) are intuitives and have inclination towards social reservation and as a result aren't going to be high on the social ladder. As of a result they feel a bit of admiration for a type that seems destined to be at the bottom (or at least near it) of the social hierarchy, but are capable of achieving success (material) without closely adhering to rules set by those of higher social status than them.

    At the same time, I believe this admiration is misplaced for the reasons stated earlier. I remember seeing a comic that was supposed to represent the duality between ILI's and SEE's. It consisted of of the SEE cartoon throwing themselves (physically and emotionally) at the ILI cartoon despite how little effort and attention emanates from the ILI. At one point, the SEE holds up a picture of a ugly monster, and says something like "Even if you looked like this, I would still love you." In the end the ILI falls in loves with the SEE. I mean if you think about it, that is what this duality represents. A hunter who has fallen in love with an ugly monster as they know this ugly monster can provide order and wisdom that the hunter desires once they are caught. Despite their high social status they don't care what their friends and family would say when they bring this monster home because at heart they don't care about this social hierarchy. However, eventually they know they are going to need this social status to get something they want (like admiration). So they "groom" the monster to be bearable enough to look at. This grooming isn't necessarily from a selfish place. They truly desire to help the monster obtain the status needed to effectively use its talents to achieve its goals.

    A Quote that I personally believe accurately describes my existence:
    There are many types of monsters that scare me: Monsters who cause trouble without showing themselves, monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood... and then, monsters who tell nothing but lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance: They are much more cunning than others. They pose as humans even though they have no understanding of the human heart; they eat even though they've never experienced hunger; they study even though they have no interest in academics; they seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such monsters, I would likely be eaten by them... because in truth, I am that monster.”

    The description of the lying monster is not an exaggeration, everyone of its attributes could be assigned to me. I have been blessed (very undeservedly) with an abundance food, but I rarely get hungry (I force myself to eat). I study even though I don't have any interest in benefitting society or academia (it is just a means to an end), I seek social interaction/friendship/love, but I am horrible at supporting my friends and dedicating time to their well-being (though I try to do better). I once met another ILI, and on one occasion he realized one of my tricks and ever since then I made sure my cunning stepped up about 10 notches. In truth, if I didn't, I would be eaten alive. It is a power-struggle that I have to win.

    If Gammas showed their genuine self all the time, no one would like us. Which is why we develop methods to mask ourselves as we move forward to complete our goals. Even among this basket of social outcasts, the ILI is at the bottom. I could easily see why someone would hate me and I would not hold it against them.

    All the same, I couldn't picture myself being anyone else, neither do I want to be and I am thankful for all attributes that I was born with.

    It is not that I don't love people; I just don't know to love. In fact, if your really close to me, I probably love you more than you think is humanly possible. As a result, to make up for being a terrible monster, I put monstrous effort to see you are well taken care of.
    Hah, rings true. It's quite the task to stave off the monster.

    Out of the introverted NTs I know in my life, I'm probably the most productive and successful financially. My biggest motivation and what keeps me progressing (by far) is mostly to just help my loved ones be better off. And when it comes to helping my community, I have a tenet I repeat to myself often : I may not be able to save the world, but I can help the people that I see. I might not be involved with larger community endeavours, but when it comes time for Christmas (or whatever) I can at least make sure they got the resources to do what they want to do.

    And as for thread contribution here, I don't really dislike any type in particular, although when I was younger I disliked LSEs. Not anymore though (I've come to appreciate their level of local optimization), so I might jump on the ESE hate train. I'm not going to flip out and cheer just because "my team" got a touchdown, and just because I don't doesn't mean I'm upset.
    Last edited by ItsJustin; 01-09-2020 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Deleting an incomplete phrase

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    Not sure. All the types have their good aspects and capable of independent actions or have at least one good feature, regardless of IQ level, that either makes me happy or unhappy. ILE-Ti and EIE (not sure of the subtypes) have brought me the most happiness and pissed me off the most, but the happiness outweighs the anger they (except for one EIE) caused me.

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    EIE

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