Explain your PoLR with examples thread

[Braingel]

This is interesting though to think about. If one family tree is mostly sensory or intuitive, illness can more likely come from imbalance...

Negligence of sensory matter or putting foot down, or failing to grasp patterns to break cycle or look at alternative.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I am annoyed by overly official business/government speak- somebody on another thread once that IEI-Ni Te polr is like being weak against government bureaucracy types and I related a lot to that. There are a lot of rules that don't make sense to me and are are contradictory because often times they will change something based on Fi feelings and not enough true objectivity or real evidence. And the business world is like this too- because often times things get changed around dynamically by whatever the CEO wants narcissistically or whatever- based on their weird Fi whims that I don't value.

It's not based on your real skill or merit - or even what a good person you are really, although Fi does like to play the moral righteous game sure. It all mostly matters if somebody likes you in a Fi way or not. If you are liked you are treated better than Christ and worshipped- if you are disliked, you are treated worse than Satan's butthole. (winks @flames )

I don't view Te as simply 'objective truth' or anything- maybe a type of objective truth at times, but Te is always changing based on Fi so sometimes it's not even really factually true at all- it's actually the opposite of the truth, that's what is so annoying about it. Raw knowledge and facts are more of a Ti thing really.

This comic sums it up I think what annoys me about Te:

bureaucracy.jpg

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@Braingel

That person was probably LSE with a IEE therapist, making them activity partners. Activity therapy usually works very well in my experience- the best therapist I ever had was a LSI really- so no wonder he thinks that. The Te veneer of therapy is just that though, a veneer. He'd most likely feel the same way about his life and how it's improved if he talked to the person on the street instead of inside a therapy office- if he would allow himself to do so. You have to 'hit the Se pavement' to do that though- and non-Se valuers are incapable of that, bless their little hearts.

I like IEEs as friends- but they are god awful at being my therapist. Most professional regular basic bitch Te therapy is just chockful of IEEs it seems though lol. Like 95% IEEs... (I'm exaggerating maybe- but at least 80% in my experience)

[Beautiful sky]

Honestly the more I see of your dad Kara, the more I think he’s LSE @Braingel

and I’m not saying that because he’s an “asshole” but he honestly sounds like a rational type who feels out of control around your emotions; and he doesn’t get you (weak FiNe). It doesn’t make “sense”; lead Te feels very disoriented when that happens but some are more flexible around it than others I think.

Nah he’s Te he doesn’t feel disoriented. He has her all figured out and can say just what he needs to to manipulate her reaction and behavior and send her on a screaming match. She needs to learn his game and rise above it

I think my father is an SP8, which I suppose is not fundamentally incompatible with LSE, since Se is 4D still, and Si makes more sense with Sp. him being an 8 and Turkish can make him seemingly SLE.

I’m Armenian

[Baqer]

I’m Armenian

o dear

[Beautiful sky]

You think he’s intentionally trying to trigger her given he knows how much it hurts her…?
that would be horrible

Yes of course he is.
That’s why she needs to change her game to throw him off. Remember ESTJ figure out everything about you and can manipulate you. Yes it sounds sadistic and wicked but if you point it out to them they can start to respect you. Right now her father doesn’t respect her because he sees her as the same “child” throwing a “tantrum” but if she flips the script and says “I know you’re trying to make me emotionally upset so when you can grow up we can talk” take him back to his seat mentally

[Tim]

@Braingel I seconded @necrosebud and @BandD typing your dad as LSE. I could see similarities between my dad and your dad.


To understand what type my parents is, my dad is an LSE 8w9 (836) sp/so but I'm willing to consider SEE or LIE for his typing and even a very aggressive enneagram 3. All I know is that he withdraw to a withdrawn type in stress. He was a war refugee so that might be an indicator on why he became a self-preservation 8. While I do think the most likely sociotype for enneagram 8 are SLE and SEE, I think there is prevalence of Te base in self-preservation 8 because they are depicted as responsible cheapskate. Similar to your dad, my dad is considered in Te society to be highly "educated" and have advanced degree. My dad have a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering at the top engineering school (UC Berkeley) and then have a Master of Science in Mechancial Engineering at University of Illinois. He's high achieving but then, he started his own manufacturing business before I was born.


My mom is a ESI 9w8 (962) sp/sx. She is a rational type and a traditional clean freak helicopter parent. However, I have encounter ESI 6s and she is not as reactive as they are. She is moralistic at times banning me from watching Simpsons and South Park when I was younger even though I ended up sneaking in and watch the shows. Most of the time, after cleaning the house, she just want to lay down and watch TV, which is an indicator of being a core 9. She does valued Ni, and when I argued with my mom over when I am that way, she does seem to understand. However, she supervised me over my lack of Fi telling me to change my behavior regardless of the emotional atmosphere between me and my dad in order to build my relations.


My younger sister is an EII 2w1 (269) sp/so. She is a stereotype of a goody two-shoes and she wanted to be love by acting like a child. She doesn't value Se at all. My dad and my sister never clashed with each other at all. She is the good child of the family. Apparently, my family are all Fi valuers. My sister did once compliment my dad over him fixing the air conditioners and providing a comfortable atmosphere for her to be in.

[Tim]

When I was younger, my dad could get aggressive and fight with my mom. There are domestic violence in my family. I have seen my dad beaten up my mom because he doesn't get along with my maternal uncle who he considered a failure and useless in life because he drop out of university and thus my dad considered him to be useless. Another time when my dad did domestic violence is when my mom accused my dad of cheating on her and look at my dad's phone. My dad got mad because he is being controlled and then another case of domestic violence ensues. Because there are frequent domestic violence in the family in my childhood, my mom often take my sister and I out of house and stay at a hotel for up to a week.


I did get spanked because I am just doing what I want and not listening to my parent. My dad bring his strict Confucian values into America, which is why some aspects of the East doesn't really appeal to me. He also slapped me for no reason when I was younger (10) especially during a domestic violence dispute with my mom, I think all of these lead to me becoming an enneagram 8. I later became bigger, taller, and stronger than he is, and thus he can't hit me no more. At least, the good part is that most of the time, he goes on business trips to China for months and thus I don't have to deal with him a lot. I called the shots whenever he is gone. When I was younger, I actually feel relieve everytime he goes on a business trip.


I did ended up getting in trouble in high school. I got suspended four times, and I had to transfer to another private school because technically, I was expelled but I was deemed not allowed to return. I only have been to private Christian fundamentalist school since the public school is shitty in the Deep South. This leads to more domestic violence between my mom and my dad. He did try to beat me up but then I did beat the shit out of him because he start getting violent. I did talk with a Bible teacher who have a violent trailer trash redneck dad, and we relate with fighting with our dad. However, since the Deep South is a Beta ST culture, I did get along with most of my classmates but not the administration. I later got away from my parents. My dad initially wanted me to stay and go to college nearby but I got three offers and one partial scholarship to play college soccer. My dad said no but I later frauded my parent's check and my mom gave in to my demands and let me go to college. The good part is that my dad usually go to business trips to China at that time and thus I determined my own destiny in that moment.


After college, I later returned but I ended up working for my dad's business. My dad doesn't hit me no more because I will beat up him up if he do. I think you could call assault charges on them if they did anything to you. I still argue with them because I demand a lot from my dad (authority as well as a higher wage and benefit). I am demanding that my dad paid for my apartment in Buckhead since I worked for him. However, based on this, he have good use of Se but there are lot of things that distingish my dad from me. We are superficially similar since we have the same strength of function (4D Se and Te). However, he tends to give long lectures on how to do things. He emphasized on being useful, educated, and productive and his insult is being useless, uneducated, and stupid. He doesn't understand why I am more reckless and hot-tempered. There are a lot of similarities between my dad and your dad. That's why I think it is very possible that your dad is an LSE because he's similar to my dad. LSE could be violent, toxic parents, and my dad is an example (and I think your dad is an example too).


He also didn't clash with my sister at all. She is goody two shoes who is quiet and not dramatic, and thus it gives him a calm of mind. I think the fact that my EII sister exist prevents him from acting like your dad.

[Braingel]

He does know it hurts me and he gaslights and he physically abused me sometimes too. One time, he abused me physically so bad, my mom had to pull him off me and literally grab him off me, and he was pulling me by my hair forty seconds. But.. He does have his own trauma and abusive history, so it’s not completely conscious, but he does know he’s hurting me, but does have his own issues. He was abused worse than me as a child by his alcoholic dad.

His brother turned out equally fucked and is in prison life long: https://www.google.com/amp/s/losange...husband/%3famp

[Braingel]

He is a true enneagram 8, and an unhealthy one. His violence is scary and borders sociopathy.

[Beautiful sky]

I’m sorry to hear about all the abuse you guys went through. As a parent that truly breaks my heart. I hope you guys learn to heal your demons and leave them in the dust. As with everything it takes time and conditioning

[Braingel]

@Braingel I seconded @necrosebud and @BandD typing your dad as LSE. I could see similarities between my dad and your dad.


To understand what type my parents is, my dad is an LSE 8w9 (836) sp/so but I'm willing to consider SEE or LIE for his typing and even a very aggressive enneagram 3. All I know is that he withdraw to a withdrawn type in stress. He was a war refugee so that might be an indicator on why he became a self-preservation 8. While I do think the most likely sociotype for enneagram 8 are SLE and SEE, I think there is prevalence of Te base in self-preservation 8 because they are depicted as responsible cheapskate. Similar to your dad, my dad is considered in Te society to be highly "educated" and have advanced degree. My dad have a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering at the top engineering school (UC Berkeley) and then have a Master of Science in Mechancial Engineering at University of Illinois. He's high achieving but then, he started his own manufacturing business before I was born.


My mom is a ESI 9w8 (962) sp/sx. She is a rational type and a traditional clean freak helicopter parent. However, I have encounter ESI 6s and she is not as reactive as she is. She is moralistic at times banning me from watching Simpsons and South Park even though I ended up sneaking in and watch the shows. Most of the time, after cleaning the house, she just want to lay down and watch TV, which is an indicator of being a core 9. She does valued Ni, and when I argued with my mom over when I am that way, she does seem to understand. However, she supervised me over my lack of Fi telling me to change my behavior regardless of the emotional atmosphere between us in order to build my relations with my dad.


My younger sister is an EII 2w1 (269) sp/so. She is a stereotype of a goody two-shoes and she wanted to be love by acting like a child. She doesn't value Se at all. My dad and my sister never clashed with each other at all. She is the good child of the family. Apparently, my family are all Fi valuers. My sister did once compliment my dad over him fixing the air conditioners and providing a comfortable atmosphere for her to be in.

My father watched his mother get beat, and he was beat by his dad and he grew up in Istanbul in a time of terrorism and had gun held to his head. That probably made him feel loss of control, hence 8.

[Braingel]

I think LSE is plausible, and him being an E8 makes him look beta-like. As said, he definitely is SP and he would also be 8w9.

[Braingel]

When I was younger, my dad could get aggressive and fight with my mom. There are domestic violence in my family. I have seen my dad beaten up my mom because he doesn't get along with my maternal uncle who he considered a failure and useless in lfie because he drop out of university and thus my dad considered him to be useless. Another time when my dad did domestic violence is when my mom accused my dad of cheating on her and look at my dad's phone. My dad got mad because he is being controlled and then another case of domestic violence ensues. Because there are frequent domestic violence in the family in my childhood, my mom often take my sister and I out of house and stay at a hotel for up to a week.


I did get spanked because I am just doing what I want and not listening to my parent. My dad bring his strict Confucian values into America, which is why some aspects of the East doesn't really appeal to me. He also slapped me for no reason when I was younger (10) especially during a domestic violence dispute with my mom, I think all of these lead to me becoming an enneagram 8. I later became bigger, taller, and stronger than he is, and thus he can't hit me no more. At least, the good part is that most of the time, he goes on business trips to China for months and thus I don't have to deal with him a lot. I called the shots whenever he is gone. When I was younger, I actually feel relieve everytime he goes on a business trip.


I did ended up getting in trouble in high school. I got suspended four times, and I had to transfer to another private school because technically, I was expelled but I was deemed not allowed to return. I only have been to private Christian fundamentalist school since the public school is shitty in the Deep South. This leads to more domestic violence between my mom and my dad. He did try to beat me up but then I did beat the shit out of him because he start getting violent. I did talk with a Bible teacher who have a violent trailer trash redneck dad, and we relate with fighting with our dad. However, since the Deep South is a Beta ST culture, I did get along with most of my classmates but not the administration. I later got away from my parents. My dad initially wanted me to stay and go to college nearby but I got three offers and one partial scholarship to play college soccer. My dad said no but I later frauded my parent's check and my mom gave in to my demands and let me go to college. The good part is that my dad usually go to business trips to China at that time and thus I determined my own destiny in that moment.


After college, I later returned but I ended up working for my dad's business. My dad doesn't hit me no more because I will beat up him up if he do. I think you could call assault charges on them if they did anything to you. I still argue with them because I demand a lot from my dad (authority as well as a higher wage and benefit). I am demanding that my dad paid for my apartment in Buckhead since I worked for him. However, based on this, he have good use of Se but there are lot of things that distingish my dad from me. We are superficially similar since we have the same strength of function (4D Se and Te). However, he tends to give long lectures on how to do things. He emphasized on being useful, educated, and productive and his insult is being useless, uneducated, and stupid. He doesn't understand why I am more reckless and hot-tempered. There are a lot of similarities between my dad and your dad. That's why I think it is very possible that your dad is an LSE because he's similar to my dad. LSE could be violent, toxic parents, and my dad is an example (and I think your dad is an example too).


He also didn't clash with my sister at all. She is goody two shoes who is quiet and not dramatic, and thus it gives him a calm of mind. I think the fact that my EII sister exist prevents him from acting like your dad.

This is very interesting to hear, Tim and sorry to hear.. But yeah, LSE works for my father. You probably saw that my father has a Master’s.. He even was trying attain PhD to be FBI agent, but dropped out after a year.

The way I try “control” my father is by getting on voice chats often, and he knows people will witness how vile he is if he acts poor, and a few people already have. Luckily, I am planning get away with an older IEI.

My father is a physical and emotional abuser, but primarily emotional. My mom occasionally physical, and occasionally emotional. She’s an ESE 2.

[Braingel]

I for years just took the abuse in the ass, but about 15, I started reacting back and I got placed in 3 childhood mental health facilities because I would fight back and they did not want deal with me or my autism symptom. I got taken out of my house in middle of night so I had no way a know or run away, and people took me to Cathedral Home for Children, where I also got abused 6 1/2 months.

I have exposed my parents all over social media, and it put pressure on both my parents.

[Beautiful sky]

You know as an EII this sort of stuff does bother me a lot though I may not show it since so many things go through my mind like possibilities and directions and solutions. I just want you guys to find the morsel of peace and happiness. If you need to make allies among people who can help or provide a buffer that would be best I think that includes intermediaries or translators. Since you guys are conflicts that is probably not serving you well for good communication. Good relationships are about communication and respect. You don’t have to be someone that you are not just that this whole Socionics thing is that window that we are all so different, but through patience and communication some things are possible.

Rambling

[Braingel]

Yes of course he is.
That’s why she needs to change her game to throw him off. Remember ESTJ figure out everything about you and can manipulate you. Yes it sounds sadistic and wicked but if you point it out to them they can start to respect you. Right now her father doesn’t respect her because he sees her as the same “child” throwing a “tantrum” but if she flips the script and says “I know you’re trying to make me emotionally upset so when you can grow up we can talk” take him back to his seat mentally

Yes, as an enneagram 4, my biggest fear is being worthless. He knows I react the most when he calls me worthless, and when he wants to make me the most upset, he calls me a, “Worthless piece of shit.”

[InterPrizeWes]

Braingel says that She does angelic yoga, but there's no ritual needed to bond with the divine. Flair on a Crayola of expression and heart wizardry conceives the life river of fun and games for transpiring with Your sound of peace how to arrange Your buttons to trophy grab the emblem of eternity.

[Braingel]

It is true there is no needed ritual, but some things can help to quiet mind in an obstreperous world, and enables you to with more ease, avert fully inward undisturbed, and a group often will help you to set aside time and actually force to do it, which can be a real hurdle if you are stuck into your own intertidal and do not get up on own because of not being structured.

[Braingel]

A ritual or group may help to concentrate action. Rituals may work in placebo way and amplify energy of will, and forcing oneself to attend a group and to have others hold them accountable to it, may help to foster one’s growth if they struggle with motivation.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes, as an enneagram 4, my biggest fear is being worthless. He knows I react the most when he calls me worthless, and when he wants to make me the most upset, he calls me a, “Worthless piece of shit.”

He doesn’t get hurt as in you screaming back an emotion doesn’t hurt him, but one of you can choose to mature.

[Tarnished]

I am attracted to healthy 8. I suppose because they force me to see the healthy version of my father. I am deeply attracted to the video game character Yuri Lowell.

He’s an Sp8 and either would be SLE-Ti or LIE-Ni.

In the actual anime, he’s definitely SLE. I would marry the shit out of him. He’s everything I ever would want.

This guy definitely look SLE. Remind me of Jaime Lannister (Game of Thrones)

[Braingel]

This guy definitely look SLE. Remind me of Jaime Lannister (Game of Thrones)

Yeah Yuri Lowell is literally everything I want in a guy. Everything.

[Braingel]

My parents do and do not care about me. My parents are quite abusive towards me (mostly emotionally, occasionally physically), to the point I may go with an older IEI out of state and he would find me a youth shelter for people 18-24 or 16-24. I already had called one with him on a 3-way phone call. My parents also let me get abused sexually and my mother blackmailed institutionalize me if I told anyone. They love me in their own fucked up way, and they have done some good things for me, but they have traumatized (and continue do so, which is hopefully about end) me very much.

The supervisors are indeed more caring than my parents. The LIE who called me 13, though, is not, he is a jerk and had malicious motive in that. Stugg and Ashton were will intended, but Stugg pushes me WAY more than Ashton did (past tense, because I have not talked with Ashton in few months).

With this, it probably is because Stugg and Ashton are different subtype, of why Stugg is harder on me than is Ashton, aside from Ashton also being far older than both Stugg and I, who are college age “kids”. But many people think Ashton is a beta ST, so he probably would be a type that kind of mirrors that, but then Stugg also has a tolerance for betas and even likes studying them, and writes fiction of them, and IEI.

[Braingel]

@Braingel what do you think of this post? Relate at all?

I have not had experience with that stuff, but when I go to a store, I never really keep track of price unless I feel it is excess, and then I intuitively moderate with what is cheaper, and will prioritize the items with what is needed most and eliminate what I don’t need. I mostly just use my intuition, and 9/10 times, I always have the exact amount of needed money somehow. It happens so often, where I have say, 22$ bucks, and the total is 21 something, and I don’t normally pay attention. But I don’t really otherwise have any experience with finances at all and don’t even have a debit card or my own bank account. I don’t deal with bills or anything..

I just focus on what I feel I need, but I do often seem get a bunch of stuff I do not really need, which can show weak Te in evaluating efficiency, but then again, money is not yet a concern for me.

I think the most noticeable aspect in my Te PolR is with sources and with my failure of efficiency (as well as extreme difficulty with external organization).

My parents and grandpa numerous times have told me I have no concept with money at all, and I have impulsively gotten things online before, which is why they don’t let me have debit card, I used to have one. Then they always complain how I leave money in sacks and crumpled up on the floor. And they always complain how it is wrinkled.

Me not being as productive and trying advance to be able get towards independence is another thing showing poor Te. I mean it is not that uncommon for my age, but still, you do see some heavier Te types who are very efficient, even at younger age. But some of it surely is just being younger.

[Braingel]

I also often get suckered into arguments that are fruitless. I envision how they will not matter at times, but I just get suckered in, and then I waste my time.. A user in community named Safsom, an LSI, even pointed to me out, how it’s not worthy of my time. And then some ILI and LIE have also told me it’s wasted time, even Ashton had told me I should not care what “an idiot thinks”.

[chriscorey]

I often get suckered into arguing with NFs... Oh well, such is life.. Thankfully I don't need a man to tell me that's what happened.

[Braingel]

I often get suckered into arguing with NFs... Oh well, such is life.. Thankfully I don't need a man to tell me that's what happened.

If my view on the Ne/Ni thing seemed like I was trying fight you on it, that’s not what I was trying to do and I’m sorry if it came off as such

[chriscorey]

If my view on the Ne/Ni thing seemed like I was trying fight you on it, that’s not what I was trying to and I’m sorry if it came off as such

I like debate because it helps me learn. I'm not always right. I need to be told I'm wrong... <3

[Braingel]

This guy definitely look SLE. Remind me of Jaime Lannister (Game of Thrones)

Omg Yuri looks like the spitting image of him, but it’s light vs dark https://iceandfire.fandom.com/wiki/Jaime_Lannister

[Braingel]

I want Yuri to come through the screen, save me and forever live off with him and venture for rest of our lives and slay injustice right by one another, in different way.

In that clip, he (Yuri) definitely is SLE-Ti (the anime), and Flynn (blonde guy), LSI.

He is such an Fi PolR in the movie (where he cries and does not know how to feel)..

And his 8 is so apparent:


Him in the video game:


He may be LIE-Ni by the video game... But overall if you look at his archetype, SLE fits him most. And he probably is an 8w7 in the movie but 8w9 in video game.. If he is an 8w9 SLE, to may make his Se look more subdued, hence he looks superficially gamma. And he absolutely is an Sp. There are some times he looks very HA Fe in the video game as well, though...

What do you think @Tim? Do you think SLE or LIE? (By video game)

[Northstar]

I think my father is an SP8, which I suppose is not fundamentally incompatible with LSE, since Se is 4D still, and Si makes more sense with Sp. him being an 8 and Turkish can make him seemingly SLE.

I agree this is very plausible. 4D Te figures out the logic of actions of people just as they do with inanimate things, so they will know exactly what button pushing causes what reaction typically. The difference is that LSE have ignoring Ti and polr Ni and little interest in figuring out what exactly is going on "inside the box" to cause these reactions. Instead, they will get frustrated if something suddenly doesn't make sense because it breaks the established action pattern. LSE can't stand irrational and illogical actions of others, SLE are more understanding because they're irrational themselves and like to figure out what exactly causes what using Ti.

[Braingel]

I agree this is very plausible. 4D Te figures out the logic of actions of people just as they do with inanimate things, so they will know exactly what button pushing causes what reaction typically. The difference is that LSE have ignoring Ti and polr Ni and little interest in figuring out what exactly is going on "inside the box" to cause these reactions. Instead, they will get frustrated if something suddenly doesn't make sense because it breaks the established action pattern. LSE can't stand irrational and illogical actions of others, SLE are more understanding because they're irrational themselves and like to figure out what exactly causes what using Ti.

Yeah, I do think my father is really an LSE now. I had originally typed him LSE, but a bunch of people thought he was an SLE, and then he is an E8 and is a volleyball coach, and the way he expresses his anger is sort of Se-like.. But I think my original LSE view is correct, and it really is just him being an 8 that makes him look SLE, and then as @LemurianLo pointed out, he is Turkish and that culture is very beta. He grew up there.

[Braingel]

It also explains why my relation with him is so horrid. I am the only Ni leader of my entire family, and they all feel threatened by it, since it is their PolR function. I am "too powerful" in a subtle way for them that they cannot fathom, and it just to them feels "worthless", because they do not see to its usage and it is poor in them.

My sister can be an LSE her own self too.

I am actually what the family needs, though, since I defy with my ability focus on grander scheme and ability to anticipate course of things playing out, the perpetuated cycle of abuse.

[Braingel]

My father is quite literally, an economical genius. He came to America all alone at 18 to escape his own abuse, he got his way all the way up to a Master's in business, started to get his PhD.. And he has made multi-million from owning volleyball club (and is the head coach and competes at national level). He knows how to strategize and market himself.. And then he does value a lot of Si things, like having higher quality wine and dine which my ESE mother is very fond of..

Te-Si fits the bill in spite of his anger that is borderline sociopathic, and his also need to exert force and engage in Se endeavor.

[Braingel]

@Braingel

That person was probably LSE with a IEE therapist, making them activity partners. Activity therapy usually works very well in my experience- the best therapist I ever had was a LSI really- so no wonder he thinks that. The Te veneer of therapy is just that though, a veneer. He'd most likely feel the same way about his life and how it's improved if he talked to the person on the street instead of inside a therapy office- if he would allow himself to do so. You have to 'hit the Se pavement' to do that though- and non-Se valuers are incapable of that, bless their little hearts.

I like IEEs as friends- but they are god awful at being my therapist. Most professional regular basic bitch Te therapy is just chockful of IEEs it seems though lol. Like 95% IEEs... (I'm exaggerating maybe- but at least 80% in my experience)

I can agree with this, given he talks about what has empirically worked for him. Also, he saw that it worked in his own self, so he thinks it must work for others, and since Te likes go by what is measured and "psychotherapy" is measured "well" in terms of what clients often perceive as it being helpful, he thinks it is only way. Sad and narrow-minded. I have been more helped by an LII-Ti, oneI talk to online, than any crappy, shoddy therapist I ever have had. I think the benefit may also be good, but the issue is that it can be harder to implement their feedback, and it is a bit harder for me, and I do ignore some of what he says, but he has helped me a lot, it just took longer for it to seep in, since my Ni wants to ignore his Ne and my Ti is not as strong as is, his own.

As I before had said, sitting on a couch for one hour a week ain't going to do jack shit. Your environment and what is around you is far more of imprecate, and also of course, exploring realms within. Psychotherapy is placebo and you can have good friends who are jut as effective as a therapist, and then you can have shitty therapists who make things worse, just as some people in your life may give bad advice. The only thing that has a benefit over psychotherapy is that it is one-sided and you are not expected reciprocate. Which can be helpful and help one to feel less pressure. You do reciprocate with money I suppose, but I man emotionally of course.

[Braingel]

I think massage therapy is more effective than psychotherapy in all honesty, unless it will endlessly trigger trauma (with touch) and you need first surmount that triggering. But it also can be healing to expose to that and tackle the traumatic trigger eventually when at certain stage of recovery. Equine therapy and massage therapy are therapies that can actually help you to gain something from that you cannot just get relationally. And there is such thing as somatic psychotherapy.

https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-ab...-psychotherapy

[Braingel]

I think massage therapy is more effective than psychotherapy in all honesty, unless it will endlessly trigger trauma (with touch) and you need first surmount that triggering. But it also can be healing to expose to that and tackle the traumatic trigger eventually when at certain stage of recovery. Equine therapy and massage therapy are therapies that can actually help you to gain something from that you cannot just get relationally. And there is such thing as somatic psychotherapy.

https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-ab...-psychotherapy

Perhaps equine therapy can be preceding the massage therapy, to process physical sensation on a horse and at your own rate, and learning how to feel safe in your own body and with another force that is not human and lacks ability to in a conscious, emotional way (since horses only can out of instinct, harm) harm you. It exposes you to movement and then how your body moves may evoke certain emotions that maybe resemble the physical position or movement your trauma was in, and being on the horse is processing that in a safe way to relive that in a way that is another movement, and you are seeing as it moves, it is not traumatic.

[Braingel]

Even the first "therapists" in our time, were really just ordinary people who had no methods to help anyone heal, and they by observing, cultivated the shills. All you need do is really, observe someone to see what will help them, and also, some patience, compassion and insight of knowing what will work given the timing in what is present and what is best for that time of presentation.

They literally would not have any studying available and literally just had go by their own insight and observation. The founders of psych, the first ever to attempt counsel that had “formality”. But what different is a therapist from one who is keen observer of man, and who has insights to apply to help from what he/she observes?

Sure, many gave the wrong approach, but today more is known, and even the working methods today would have required observation and insight.

[chriscorey]

Even the first "therapists" in our time, were really just ordinary people who had no methods to help anyone heal, and they by observing, cultivated the shills. All you need do is really, observe someone to see what will help them, and also, some patience, compassion and insight of knowing what will work given the timing in what is present and what is best for that time of presentation.

They literally would not have any studying available and literally just had go by their own insight and observation. The founders of psych, the first ever to attempt counsel that had “formality”. But what different is a therapist from one who is keen observer of man, and who has insights to apply to help from what he/she observes?

Sure, many gave the wrong approach, but today more is known, and even the working methods today would have required observation and insight.

Yeah true. When I go see my therapist she says "what's wrong?" I tell her nothing really! But my kids are refusing to to go to school! It's stressing me out. She then asks me some questions about how my kids won't go to school. She's only dancing around my anxiety, as I see it. Love the ILI skeptical my approach....