Fe Exhaustion

[Simo]

I have multiple questions

I charge a thousand dollar per question

(1) how do LIIs (and LSI) handle the constant presence of Fe-leads? In particular ESEs. As introverts don't they get exhausted or irritated after some time?

I'm asking because my project partner is ESE. At first we only saw each other once a week for a few hours and she held herself back because we didn't know each other well. Actually she still knows nothing about me but now that I tried to smile and nod politely when she's talking she feels like we're friends or something. She expects me to react of everything she says and it's wearing me out. Which leads me to...

well I leave this to Ti-leads

(2) how do I tell an ESE politely to leave me alone (and that bus rides are not for chatting)?

We see each other more often now to finish the project. She constantly tries to show how clever she is (just ESE thing) and how much fun she is having. I don't care. I just don't want to piss her off. (partly because I don't want to be an asshole and partly because we still have to work together smootly for a few weeks)

I have a friend who can't stop chatting and he told me that when he is alone all sort of negative thoughts start popping up, so I believe those people just want someone to talk to so if you can find a third person to rides the bus with you and have him/her entertain your ESE friend while you disappear in the shadows.

I find this solution very effective and save you from the awkward "leave me alone" conversation.

(3) How do I tell an EIE politely that I can't listen to her complaints and grievances all the time.

I don't want to hurt her or invalidate her feelings but sometimes I feel like she's at war with the world and expects my support. I've already been at this point and it didn't go well. She'll see my lack of concern as an insult eventually. I don't want to put a strain on our relationship but at the moment I'm out of options and I don't want to adjust my behavior on my own expense to make her happy.
At least not all the time. I can accept that compromises are necessary.

give her advice/solution, it may look simple but most people who complain just want sympathy and validation (few want real advice or solution).
so when you give her an advice or a solution you basically make her problems seem normal & can be easily solved which they don't like, do it enough times & they won't want to complain to an inconsiderate person like you (warning: they will try to make it sounds as if they are victims & all this happened because of this & that, so remind them of Stephen Covey's circle of influence which says you should focus only on the things that you have control over).

in case they really want an advice/solution then they will apply it & you won't have to listen to her until the next problem comes

hope this helps

[ouronis]

Every reaction does not require an equal and opposite reaction. So if you feel overwhelmed by the feeling you have to react with equal intensity, just remember you (hopefully) have a personality, too, and your reactions are just as valid as hers.

[Myst]

I think they can't help it.

I used to date an LII; literally, I'd laugh and he'd laugh, I'd cry and he'd cry.

W/ Ti creatives I feel like I can't pull them around as easily, they can sort of...shut themselves off?

Sample size too small?

I think I basically have two options: do a response or don't. I can consciously disable it but then it feels kind of hostile if the other person is expressing positively at the same time.

However, I definitely don't cry just because someone else cries lol. I need a pretty strong expression emotionally to even really mirror. E.g. if you are laughing, but not too much, or I'm just not that close with you (i.e. I have not got used to you emotionally either), then I'll just smile in response, so it's only a kind of responsiveness and not 100% mirroring. And even when I do actually mirror, crying isn't one of the expressions I would do.

Hm, negative emotions in general I don't think I get "infected" with. I just goto problem-solving mode to deal with it. So it's kind of emotional detachment then. Especially if it's negativity directed at me... then I really 100% detach to be able to deal with it in problem-solving mode. That, or I'll optionally get angry in my response (that is, if I'm able to make an evaluation of the situation then no problem with getting angry).

Speaking only for myself, I'm not unaware, just not controlled. The emotions just happen or they just don't.

A conscious focus is not needed for me. All I need is a sense of sincerity in those emotions from the other person. That's why I'm such a big fan of Ego Fe's. If the emotions seem forced, affected, or otherwise disingenuous I don't mirror anything except the minimum for politeness and I tend to grow suspicious of the other person.

I'm pretty unaware, actually. I could accidentally get aware of something but not really the expression itself, just that I'm doing this thingy with expressing something. Ofc based on how I feel my facial muscles move, I do get to form a bit of an idea of what I was expressing if I do notice that I was doing that. (And I do get a readout of my own internal state a little, but again that's just a bit of an idea.) But I think that's not really the Fe type of feedback from the muscles. I had a moment once where I had that, just totally randomly, the Fe version, getting to read my own expression in a really refined way, it was really weird!

My response probably comes across as mildly paranoid as well--but maybe less conspiratorial because Ne PoLR. There's just a sense of "Oh, so you're not being totally real with me. Do you have an angle or are you just insecure about something?" Then a lead-Fe comes along and it's a big relief because now there's a "emotionally rich and purposefully stimulating" environment that doesn't feel like a put-on.

Not sure if an ESE or SEI ever came across as fake to me (or if that's even what you were getting at). I just end up feeling either bad or like I'm walking on eggshells because I'm so bad at the Si comfort & consideration thing. My SEI family is pretty used to and gets some amusement out of it, but there's always an undercurrent of "You really shouldn't be saying these things, ya know," whenever I'm in town.

Lol Si, I can do politeness on a large social distance so then whatever I do/say doesn't violate Si valuing concerns I suppose but in any other situation....yeah

Idk if I ever really care much if someone seems to use forced expressions. Some people are just not good at expressing, I watch their actions (and how their words match) more to see what they are up to. I would never try to read intention just from someone's expressions, I have to match that with other things (actions and overall consistency of what they say).

Thanks for your explanations, very helpful to me

Despite their emotional responsiveness, i guess LxI are mostly unaware of their emotional expression ?

Mostly

Is there any conscious focus needed to mirror the emotions for LxI, or by sole suggestivity is it achieved ?

No conscious focus needed at all but it does have the prerequisite of feeling emotionally good with the person, the more previous emotional experience with them, the better.

I would think it could be possible for LxI to try to mimic consciously the emotions, but most of the time it would look awkward, so trying to voluntarily express emotions would be Fe polr (but in this case they don't want to, it is just to fit in), there would be better awareness of emotional expectations from Fe polr (even if less inclined to act on it).

I do not even want to try to mimic them consciously, that'd feel so unnatural.

Is that make sense sometimes to think you want to reciprocate emotions but feel inadequate in doing so for LxI, so eventually attenuating the emotional expression ?

If you are asking whether LxI wants to reciprocate but can't do it well so they just stop with it, I don't relate to this at all. Like I mention above, I do not want to force any of this process. It either works/happens or it doesn't, fine by me either way.

For me, i feel like i want but don't want at the same time, it's maybe linked to the felt incompetence regulating my own emotional expression and so the resulting possibility to feel ashamed for that ?

Idk I never felt this way.

And some kind of ambivalence about emotions, like sometimes Fe can be really disturbing and annoying, when loud and chaotic it's just makes me run away, though i don't think it's often Fe lead who disturbs me this way, more about other extravert type i would guess.
Are LxI supposed to enjoy this kind of loud and chaotic emotional expression, in group or crowd ?

I don't know what emotional expressions you feel to be chaotic...

I know some Fe egos to be very very loud lol, I don't mind. I mostly find it funny or entertaining even, it definitely draws my attention overall. It doesn't feel chaotic.

I have never had a problem with the Fe HA of ExTps, either.

Hmm, Fe demonstrative, usually okay too? But I do dislike it if someone seems to get too random with their expressions, maybe that's Fe demo, not sure.

If you find the emotional expressions of ExE chaotic, I suggest you check out Fe PoLR for yourself.

Well Cosmic’s thread is all fucked up now.

Ime Fe valuers don’t find Fe fake, and Fi valuers don’t find Fi fake. Fe may find Fi fake and vice versa.

With LIIs I just have felt a bit like I’m doing something wrong, too harshly, in very close relations. It may be the Si thing.

Any idea what stuff is it that you do "too harshly" with them?

Also the paranoia vs LII thing, I've seen LII respond negatively and in a paranoid way when they felt like I was trying to be mysterious with them, hinting at stuff but not telling them about it more. That's how they felt, that's not what I was actually doing.

[golden]

Any idea what stuff is it that you do "too harshly" with them?

I'm not spending a lot of time with LIIs, just one I've hung out with about 4 times in the last two years. She's very cool, and I have only a subtle impression that she's fragile and I wondered a bit at times if I was being too pushy. She never expressed any offense at me, though, only positive things.

Also the paranoia vs LII thing, I've seen LII respond negatively and in a paranoid way when they felt like I was trying to be mysterious with them, hinting at stuff but not telling them about it more. That's how they felt, that's not what I was actually doing.

Pretty same here. Having someone be paranoid about something I'm not doing kinda stumps me tbh. If I were doing something, I'd just stop lol. Boo.

[Myst]

Pretty same here. Having someone be paranoid about something I'm not doing kinda stumps me tbh. If I were doing something, I'd just stop lol. Boo.

Wait, so they felt you were trying to be mysterious? Lol! I read somewhere that this is the devalued Ni of LII.

[Sisyphean]

I'm pretty unaware, actually. I could accidentally get aware of something but not really the expression itself, just that I'm doing this thingy with expressing something. Ofc based on how I feel my facial muscles move, I do get to form a bit of an idea of what I was expressing if I do notice that I was doing that. (And I do get a readout of my own internal state a little, but again that's just a bit of an idea.) But I think that's not really the Fe type of feedback from the muscles. I had a moment once where I had that, just totally randomly, the Fe version, getting to read my own expression in a really refined way, it was really weird!

It's very slight and just in the very back of my mind, most times. There's also often a bit of a delay on the awareness. A moment in the middle of a conversation where I just become aware that I'm being a lot more expressive, in general, than my baseline; or that the conversation has a much better "flow" to it; or that this other person feels good to be around and now my face is sore from smiling for a couple hours.

Though, I've also been in situations for years where extreme cognizance of how I'm expressing, coming across to other people, or responding was a required. So maybe it's learned.

Lol Si, I can do politeness on a large social distance so then whatever I do/say doesn't violate Si valuing concerns I suppose but in any other situation....yeah

Yup! As soon as I "let loose" with somebody Si-valuing feathers start getting ruffled or worse, feelings get hurt. At a distance behaving more "appropriately" or formally at least doesn't feel bizarre.

Idk if I ever really care much if someone seems to use forced expressions. Some people are just not good at expressing, I watch their actions (and how their words match) more to see what they are up to. I would never try to read intention just from someone's expressions, I have to match that with other things (actions and overall consistency of what they say).

This may be a personal hang-up and not type-indicative. I'm not sure. My personal experience has a track record that if someone is being "fake" in the impression they're trying to give me it's because they're hostile and a threat. It's never specific about intention but a baseline wariness of "There's a dissonance between their words and their body language. Why? What's going on?" Then the rest of how they behave, what they say, what they don't say, and how they conspicuously don't behave fills in the gaps.

[Myst]

Cool. On your bus ride, can you pretend to be reading something assigned to you, or pretend to be asleep? Or wear headphones and say it’s a guided meditation and this is your only chance to get it done, daily, on the bus? Something like that.

ETA the more I think about it, the more I like the book option. Ti leads usually need to read and their duals should be able to understand that easily.

I actually wanted to add this, that reading a book is a good idea... but only if I want to read that book anyway or it's not a good way to try and enforce boundaries.

I'll jump on this grenade, @Cosmic Teapot. Send me all your EIEs

edit: With pictures...

To me too, the male ones! @Cosmic Teapot

It's very slight and just in the very back of my mind, most times. There's also often a bit of a delay on the awareness. A moment in the middle of a conversation where I just become aware that I'm being a lot more expressive, in general, than my baseline; or that the conversation has a much better "flow" to it; or that this other person feels good to be around and now my face is sore from smiling for a couple hours.

Though, I've also been in situations for years where extreme cognizance of how I'm expressing, coming across to other people, or responding was a required. So maybe it's learned.

I would not call that "extreme cognizance". That's about the same level of awareness I have about this.

Yup! As soon as I "let loose" with somebody Si-valuing feathers start getting ruffled or worse, feelings get hurt. At a distance behaving more "appropriately" or formally at least doesn't feel bizarre.

Right, exactly

This may be a personal hang-up and not type-indicative. I'm not sure. My personal experience has a track record that if someone is being "fake" in the impression they're trying to give me it's because they're hostile and a threat. It's never specific about intention but a baseline wariness of "There's a dissonance between their words and their body language. Why? What's going on?" Then the rest of how they behave, what they say, what they don't say, and how they conspicuously don't behave fills in the gaps.

Oh, there are some types of expressions that I guess you could call forced/fake while the person does have bad intentions, yeah, but I don't see it being fake/forced as the problem, to me the problem is indicated by the specific type of expression, if that makes sense...?

That EIE was me. In reverse, to address my own Ti-Dual Seeking, I have also (obviously) had several 10+ hour skype calls with LSI (and calls nearly as long with LII) and, likewise, the only tiring I experienced was from not having slept that night lmao

Good stuff

They don't "handle" it, they love it. In the absence of Duality (or at least Activity types) any given type can grow restless with the unsatisfying feedbacks or even substitute the absence by attempting to create that atmosphere themselves. I've read some interesting material on what LSI does in the absence of EIE. We can all attempt to simulate our implicitly desired atmosphere and feedbacks, superimposing our subconscious wants onto the environment. Shit like this is why Socionics is the most fascinating system of Typology

What did you read about LSI, what do they do without EIE, can you say more on it, or link to the source?

[Memento Mori]

What did you read about LSI, what do they do without EIE, can you say more on it, or link to the source?

Sure can, Mystical.

So the stuff dealing mostly with LSI's Fe can be found here, under their Fe description, and here's a holy shit massive, interesting article on LSI/EIE duality.

[golden]

Wait, so they felt you were trying to be mysterious? Lol! I read somewhere that this is the devalued Ni of LII.

It’s more like they thought I was being tricky, manipulative, devious or something. I’ve been called mysterious by a couple of Deltas though

[Sisyphean]

I would not call that "extreme cognizance". That's about the same level of awareness I have about this.

Well i never said I was good at it just that I'm in situations that require it often, so it's a forced habit...that I'm also bad at lol.

Oh, there are some types of expressions that I guess you could call forced/fake while the person does have bad intentions, yeah, but I don't see it being fake/forced as the problem, to me the problem is indicated by the specific type of expression, if that makes sense...?

Oh for sure, that makes total sense. I'm just paranoid and respond more to the distance between expression and action, and I'm relatively certain this is just a learned response from my personal background. Totally honest hostility is less disconcerting, to me, than a put-on of friendliness or civility as a general rule. I know how to deal with an @#$hole who is upfront about it much more comfortably than someone being a tricky, slippery son of a b*tch.

[Shining]

I don't know what emotional expressions you feel to be chaotic...

I know some Fe egos to be very very loud lol, I don't mind. I mostly find it funny or entertaining even, it definitely draws my attention overall. It doesn't feel chaotic.

I have never had a problem with the Fe HA of ExTps, either.

Hmm, Fe demonstrative, usually okay too? But I do dislike it if someone seems to get too random with their expressions, maybe that's Fe demo, not sure.

If you find the emotional expressions of ExE chaotic, I suggest you check out Fe PoLR for yourself.

Maybe it's because of you being Se creative ? (or that you are more accustomed to Fe than me, and/or that loud and chaotic perceived behaviours are actually not from Fe lead)

Here is supposedly common characterization of ESE by LII : "completely unpredictable", "chaotic", "aggressive".

For Exxp, it's mostly Fe demo which i find disturbing i would guess, so xEE types specifically.

Yes, fast switch in Fe expressions without any external changes in situation is very Fe demo i think.

I relate to Fe polr kind of as much as i relate to Se polr.

[golden]

Totally honest hostility is less disconcerting, to me, than a put-on of friendliness or civility as a general rule. I know how to deal with an @#$hole who is upfront about it much more comfortably than someone being a tricky, slippery son of a b*tch.

This is interesting Bc I usually *can* deal with ppl who are primarily fake or manipulative etc., but they are such shit specimens of humanity it feels disgusting me to do so, and I reject them.

If I’m being fake and manipulative I’ll just say so.

[golden]

I relate to Fe polr kind of as much as i relate to Se polr.

Hie thee to Delta! Quick, lads, a horse!

[Shining]

Hie thee to Delta! Quick, lads, a horse!

I could see SLI or EII but :

- i neither relate to Ne or Te suggestive

- i relate to Fe and Se suggestives to some extent based (like i relate too to their polr definitions, they are way too similar i think but unfortunately i never found good polr/suggestive definition outside of the dumb polarized : you are supposed to love suggestive and hate polr), at least more than other information element suggestive 'definitions'

- i don't really care about Te, outside of basic efficiency for myself, though this one doesn't rule out ILI and especially SLI, but could be Te ignoring too

- i have never been really into practical activities, when i was a kid i was seeing S things like mechanics, building stuff with your hands as annoying (and i still do, though i am more nuanced now and will obv do mechanics stuff if i have to, but i prefer not to)

- but neither have i been focused on super abstract stuff, i am quite slow learning materials involving new ways of thinking/looking at things, i spend/was spending most of my time on lazy kind of activities like video games, tv shows and music, not to say xNTx wouldn't be interested in those kinds of activities

- your example of interaction with SLI repeating the same stuff based on your answers wouldn't occur to me, though i saw my dad do that with my SEI mom when expressing through Fe, a lot of minsunderstanding because of Te and Fe

- i have better grasp on Fi/Fe stuffs than ST types i think, but could be based on Ne who helps me grasp things i don't through F functions, which still would make me xxNx type

- but in the other way, i have worse grasp than F types on these matters


Though i relate a lot to this, but is that really peculiar to SLI ?

[Eos]

Yeah Fe people are ALWAaays FEEeeeeEEE and they CANT really TUUURN IT OFF its just BLAM BLAM BLAM in your FACE EXPRESSION TO BE or not ...to..be....

[Myst]

Sure can, Mystical.

So the stuff dealing mostly with LSI's Fe can be found here, under their Fe description, and here's a holy shit massive, interesting article on LSI/EIE duality.

Ah you mean the scandal provoking thingy?

Well i never said I was good at it just that I'm in situations that require it often, so it's a forced habit...that I'm also bad at lol.

Oh for sure, that makes total sense. I'm just paranoid and respond more to the distance between expression and action, and I'm relatively certain this is just a learned response from my personal background. Totally honest hostility is less disconcerting, to me, than a put-on of friendliness or civility as a general rule. I know how to deal with an @#$hole who is upfront about it much more comfortably than someone being a tricky, slippery son of a b*tch.

Ok lol, if you mean social situations, sure yeah. I'm totally with you about preferring open direct hostility than a placating style while the person tries to get away with what wrong they've done or are still doing, while they still want to get benefits for themselves....

[velveteen]

(2) how do I tell an ESE politely to leave me alone (and that bus rides are not for chatting)?

We see each other more often now to finish the project. She constantly tries to show how clever she is (just ESE thing) and how much fun she is having. I don't care. I just don't want to piss her off. (partly because I don't want to be an asshole and partly because we still have to work together smootly for a few weeks)

Be honest with her, explain your introversion and that you feel over stimulated by constant chatter. She won't understand at all but it's the only way. She may get offended, but just reassure her it's about you and your needs. With the ESE it often seems like you're fucked if you do and you're fucked if you don't, but being honest tends to run more smoothly in the long run.

(3) How do I tell an EIE politely that I can't listen to her complaints and grievances all the time.

I don't want to hurt her or invalidate her feelings but sometimes I feel like she's at war with the world and expects my support. I've already been at this point and it didn't go well. She'll see my lack of concern as an insult eventually. I don't want to put a strain on our relationship but at the moment I'm out of options and I don't want to adjust my behavior on my own expense to make her happy.
At least not all the time. I can accept that compromises are necessary.[/QUOTE]

She's probably just not aware how she is making you feel. Express to her how her complaints are making you feel and reassure her she's not the problem. That you care about her as a person (I am assuming you do?), but you are unable to cater to her needs the way she needs.

[Exodus]

I have multiple questions


(1) how do LIIs (and LSI) handle the constant presence of Fe-leads? In particular ESEs. As introverts don't they get exhausted or irritated after some time?

I'm asking because my project partner is ESE. At first we only saw each other once a week for a few hours and she held herself back because we didn't know each other well. Actually she still knows nothing about me but now that I tried to smile and nod politely when she's talking she feels like we're friends or something. She expects me to react of everything she says and it's wearing me out. Which leads me to...

(2) how do I tell an ESE politely to leave me alone (and that bus rides are not for chatting)?

We see each other more often now to finish the project. She constantly tries to show how clever she is (just ESE thing) and how much fun she is having. I don't care. I just don't want to piss her off. (partly because I don't want to be an asshole and partly because we still have to work together smootly for a few weeks)


(3) How do I tell an EIE politely that I can't listen to her complaints and grievances all the time.

I don't want to hurt her or invalidate her feelings but sometimes I feel like she's at war with the world and expects my support. I've already been at this point and it didn't go well. She'll see my lack of concern as an insult eventually. I don't want to put a strain on our relationship but at the moment I'm out of options and I don't want to adjust my behavior on my own expense to make her happy.
At least not all the time. I can accept that compromises are necessary.

1. Yes, we do get exhausted by too much interaction. More so when we are expected to take an active role or there are lots of people involved, but any kind of interaction nonetheless.

2. I like the "look busy" suggestion... (see below)

The book option sounds kinda elegant. No talking. No explaining myself. Just silence... and yeah outta my thread.

On a serious note I need to think about my behavior towards ESEs and EIEs. So far this thread and its contributors gave me a lot to consider. Mainly that I'm not being communicative enough. Admitting that is hard. I'm expecting the ESE to read my mind and leave me alone. When I'm not telling her what's bothering me I might stay out of an argument but in reality I'm not even giving her a chance to pay attention to my problem areas.

I think you've made a good insight here. Fe valuers expect and actually like for others to communicate what they are thinking and feeling. The catch however is that ESEs are often sensitive to negativity. So you just have to let her know that you need some time to yourself but that it's nothing personal towards her. It's just a matter of communicating your intentions / a sense of good will.

[Beautiful sky]

But on a more serious note—tho my plan might actually work!—can you shift more of the ESE communication to texting, google sheets, slack, etc.? I think I communicate better with Delta STs textually because they can’t see my face.

I try to hold back Fe around people who can’t respond to it, but then I have a really hard time functioning at all, which wouldn’t conduce to working on a project with someone.

As for the EIE, they may not want to lean on you even tho they do. Usually LSI is good with directing ppl toward resources like systems and info that can help sort their shit. You can probably manage that. Or find them some Betas to complain to so you bear less burden.

Also EIE read other's Fe expressions well too

[Rebelondeck]

Unlike Ips, Ijs have detached processing styles meaning that input doesn't have impact on or effect rationalization. Therefore, the apparent invasiveness of Ej-processing styles is automatically kept at a distance and doesn't become burdensome. Now, Ijs can become really annoyed with Ejs but not because of input or processing overloads.

a.k.a. I/O