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Thread: Fe/Te - Socialism vs. Capitalism

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    AndyW's Avatar
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    Default Fe/Te - Socialism vs. Capitalism

    Hi 16Types folks,

    This is a discussion that came up whilst typing The16Types member Mrrrmaid: specifically the potential connections (or otherwise) between Fe/Socialism and Te/Capitalism. It's a very interesting discussion and I saw it hasn't been debated properly on The16Types. However, I didn't want to derail Mrrrmaid's typing thread with it, so I'll start with a short argument as to why I believe there is a connection based on those information elements and the system of values they represent in one's ego, and give my stance.

    Extroverted Ethics/Feeling (Fe) - is defined on Wikisocion as "Emotional atmosphere, romanticism, cooperation, treatment, qualitative judgement of behavior, sympathy, ethical estimations of observable actions, ethics of actions. Assessing the moods and attitudes from dynamics of surroundings and the actions and choices of others, being perceptive of the "emotional atmosphere", analyzing and evaluating emotions and attitudes of others based on their currently observable reactions and actions, to express one's feelings and experiences openly and directly, to impact the emotional and social space, which can be done through expressive combination of words and gestures.
    "

    Extroverted Logic/Thinking (Te) - is defined on Wikisocion as "Efficiency, method, mechanism, knowledge, work, reason in motion, direction of activity into its most logical course of action, "logic of actions", utilitarianism, expediency, benefit. An evaluatory state of mind that directly assesses events and actions of other people from a logical PoV and openly voices those assessments, assessing and estimating productivity, efficiency, usefulness, rational sense of any given involvement venture or activity, steady and purposeful state of mind that leads to making rational actions despite the present sentiments."

    My argument is a persona that values (Te), as an information element that values utilitarianism and judges productivity, will always lean towards individualism and meritocracy (the two linchpins of Classical Liberal or Conservative Capitalism), whilst a persona that values (Fe), as an information element that values group harmony and judges ethics, will always lean towards collectivism and egalitarianism (the two linchpins of Marxism/Socialism).

    Whilst it is entirely possible for both (Fe) and (Te) to become pathological in their application, I would argue that out-of-control (Te) would represent a kind of brutally-cold, oppressive corporate oligarchy that cares little for human life, much like the current Chinese mixed-model governmental and social system. Meanwhile, unbridled (Fe) represents justification of the oppression of people who violate the harmony of the socialist ideal - something Stalin used to justify his purges in the 1930s ("You do not believe in my ideology, therefore you are an enemy of the state and therefore I have no qualms about sending you to the gulags").

    The thought of socialism/communism coming to the West has always terrified me, especially the more informed you become about it and the more you speak to people who lived under it. Communism is group harmony taken to its pathological extreme, as Bertrand Russell, a famous classical liberal, wrote here:

    “When I met Lenin, I had much less impression of a great man than I had expected; my most vivid impressions were of bigotry and Mongolian cruelty. When I put a question to him about socialism in agriculture, he explained with glee how he had incited the poorer peasants against the richer ones, ‘and they soon hanged them from the nearest tree---ha! Ha! Ha!’ His guffaw at the thought of those massacred made my blood run cold.”
    P.186, Unpopular Essays, Bertrand Russell

    This justification of demonising the out-group based on Marxist ideology, in this case the 'Kulak' bourgeoisie middle-class farmers of the Ukraine, is what allows someone like Lenin to dehumanise them and have no second thoughts about having them killed in the name of the so-called 'greater good'. This attitude led to socialism/communism being responsible for at least 100 million deaths around the world during the course of the 20th century alone. Many of these deaths came from starvation as the murdered Kulaks were replaced by incompetent farming cronies of the communist government (a worryingly similar situation is now happening in South Africa in the forms of land confiscation, as well).

    In my opinion, this comes from an unchecked extroverted judgment system. No self-respecting (Te) valuer would have their most productive farmers murdered or executed, leading to a huge productivity loss that in turn leads to economic failure and starvation. It requires a pathological ideological system based on non-logical extroverted ethics (Fe) to justify this sort of behaviour.

    Therefore, I will take the stance that nobody who values (Te) can ever consider themselves socialist/communist without having a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance. If you're a socialist and claim to value (Te), you're either mistyped, or have actually somehow managed to work out that socialism is productive and efficient, despite all the evidence being to the contrary.

    NB. I personally consider myself to be socially libertarian, whilst being fiscally conservative and pro-small government. I am openly opposed to socialism and social justice in all its forms, having seen the destruction and oppression those ideologies have wrought on society, whether through communist governments of the past, or the oppressive and sometimes violent de-platforming and political correctness culture of the last 5-10 years through AntiFa or the SJWs.

    You'd think we'd learn from history.

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    &papu silke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
    Therefore, I will take the stance that nobody who values (Te) can ever consider themselves socialist/communist without having a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance. If you're a socialist and claim to value (Te), you're either mistyped, or have actually somehow managed to work out that socialism is productive and efficient, despite all the evidence being to the contrary.
    Couple quick comments here on a few things you seem to be omitting within your argument:

    - The fact that Delta is an Aristocratic quadra and "aristocratism" entails social regulation and social intervention rather the capitalistic do-it-on-your-own and your-own-merit-is-yourself attitudes.

    - The socialist "Caregiver" state is very much averse to Beta values. It represents a block to the usual competitive attitudes that Betas go by, hence Socialism cannot be associated with Fe.

    - That every Delta type has "Ti/Fe" in their Super-Ego aka "social control" block.

    - The Enneagram social instinct - it increases the value of social/community affiliation in a person's life and it is widespread across every quadrant, including ones that value Fi.

    In closing, even though I'm Fe/Ti valuing, state mandated Communism sounded like a really, really stupid idea all the way back in kindergarten, at age 6, having been raised in a post-Communist state and having been taught some of the Communist ideals. Right now, living in a town that is the socialist leftist liberal paradise, I must say IEE is a very common type to see at the "down-with-capitalism" rallies here. They are protesting the violations that Capitalism brings to the 'human state' and the human rights - +Fi. So I don't think the answer is as simplistic Te/Fi=is pro Capitalism and Fe/Ti=is pro Communism, and certainly not the reason to imply that someone might be mistyped if they aren't subscribing to a certain political ideology.

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    Bertrand's Avatar
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    I think its something more like the socion has a spiral like relationship to history so certain phases in the socion, like a dominant beta phase, might coincide with the emergence of communism, but anyone can be a communist because anyone can live during a time where communism reigns, and the same goes for capitalism. a lot is in how the types view whatever cultural/political modes prevail. you can have 16 different versions of communism. Solzhenitsyn promoted delta values, but was typed EIE. but what is a delta value? at the end of the day its not a political but a psychological value. I dont think people are straight on what a system reflective of the lived values of a type look like. gammas live out a kind of natural "capitalism" it doesn't mean they necessarily adhere to a explicit political theory reflecting it. its just what they do. in the final analysis political allegiance is a different layer than personality. you can be a communist for gamma reasons or a capitalist for beta reasons, because what it even means to be a capitalist is subjective. some people are capitalists because they believe a meritocracy is whats best for everyone. some people believe a meritocracy is whats personally best for them, etc. I think a lot of the beta=communism stuff is more like an analogy used to illustrate certain principles but its overly literally to say there is a kind of 1:1 relationship between type and what people vote, so to speak. however you say one will always lean toward one more than the other, all else being equal I agree with this. but its not communism so much as the psychological modes communism was put into action to try and realize...

    so all else being equal, a beta in a capitalist society would be more "communist" than a gamma. but there are so many offsetting factors, it is never really this simple. betas will try to "soften" any pure capitalist system and make it more beta inasmuch as capitalism is a manifestation of gamma, but this is just to interpose the systems, you could say betas are more beta than gammas, and so forth. this is what I mean by its more of an analogy, and politics is like an entirely distinct layer on top of things. in other words, what is really going on is alpha-beta-gamma-delta are all distinct and on a continuum of psychological values, and inasmuch as a system represents some "pure" quadra values, a different quadra is less of a "pure" citizen of those values, because its like saying beta is less of a gamma than gamma, its just true by definition, simply by way of identifying a political system to a quadra. but political systems to quadra is trickier than it may seem at first glance. really its more of an analogy than a real thing, since pure political systems reflective of a single quadra I dont think really exist, at best they they sort of predominate. hence capitalism in the US is more like a plurality of gamma values, buts its relatively slight. its hard to attach a definite number to soviet russia, but you get the idea I hope. I agree in principle, all else being equal, a beta is less of a natural capitalist than a gamma, but it depends entirely on what we mean by capitalism to some extent. for example Gulenko types Elon Musk as LSI, and I think the idea is LSI is a "man of the system" and that system can be almost anything, so we can't just straightforward identify betas to communism and so forth

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    divine, too human WVBRY's Avatar
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    I don't think it is actually type related.

    First, a person can be a capitalist or a socialist for a variety of reasons. You seem to argue that a person can only be a capitalist due to utilitarian reasons.

     
    You seem to cite utilitarian arguments as the basis for capitalism, but I think those arguments tend to undermine capitalism in the long run. I prefer Ayn Rand's defense of capitalism based on deontological moral arguments because if you argue with someone who believes in 'social justice' they don't deny capitalism can create great wealth, or that socialism often failed to do so, but also that capitalism is inherently evil because it fosters selfishness. Therefore they argue in favor of a mixed economy, because that gives the 'best of both worlds' - the wealth of capitalism with the social justice of socialism. If you say that capitalism should be adopted because it 'works' you're really saying that the ends justify the means, and opening up the door for the argument that socialism, if it worked, would be moral. That quote by Bertrand Russel when he met Lenin is a good example of Lenin thinking 'the ends justify the means'. If socialism had worked to feed the starving masses, that still wouldn't justify what Lenin said, imo.


    Anyways, to get type back into this, I do not think this is type related, as I've met individuals of different types who believe different things as to capitalism vs socialism. I agree with Silke. I've met quite a few Deltas who value equality of outcome, and Betas who don't. So even if it is type related, it isn't nearly as simple as socialism/communism being Fe and capitalism being Te.
    Last edited by WVBRY; 09-06-2018 at 07:46 AM.

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    fka mrrrmaid SaveYourself's Avatar
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    But you yourself are fiscally conservative but also in an Fe valuing quadra? Doesn't that undermine everything you just said? Or is it only Fe egos who are socialist?

    I agree with @Avebury that there are different reasons for getting into socialism / capitalism that aren't based on fervour vs utilitarianism. I admittedly don't know any Fe capitalists (because I don't really know any capitalists irl...) but I did know one Te-base socialist who used utilitarian logic to justify his beliefs (equality of opportunity = more ideas on the table; equal distribution of profits = happier workforce more invested in the product; more money going to public services = better education, health care etc meaning more productive population; needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few). I also feel like a lot of the people most opposed to SJWs (within the left itself, that is) are Beta and then Alpha.

    Also is there anything in Fe that suggests collectivism on a grand scale? Couldn't assuming the ethics and emotions of those around you lead to fervour in favour of capitalism just as easily if you were in a capitalist environment? Don't many people use collectivist ethics to justify capitalism ("my group worked harder than that group thus deserve a bigger pay out", "I worked hard to provide for my family and therefore my kid will go to a better school" "we want to be the greatest country in the world and that means a booming economy" hell maybe even, "make america great again"). I feel like a lot of arguments for staff team-building and company loyalty etc are capitalist Fe examples.

    Slightly off-topic, and I don't want to get into a political debate so don't @ me to specifically talk about the merits of socialism v capitalism, but I think a lot of your reasoning here is very biased. You went on a long tangent about how bad socialism is and how it could only be the result of illogical romanticism based on ill-thought out ethics. It's less that you think socialists are Fe and more than you think they're dumb / not critically thinking. "Non-logical extraverted ethics." This is just bad typology, assuming that F-types aren't also capable of logic and bad politics, assuming everyone on the opposite side to you is on that side because they are incapable of logical reasoning.
    "I take back like half of the exclamation points.....they make me look....eager to please. Which I AM....but I don't want anyone to KNOW that"
    - Carrie Fisher

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    Politics and type have no relationship.

    /thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Couple quick comments here on a few things you seem to be omitting within your argument:

    - The fact that Delta is an Aristocratic quadra and "aristocratism" entails social regulation and social intervention rather the capitalistic do-it-on-your-own and your-own-merit-is-yourself attitudes.

    - The socialist "Caregiver" state is very much averse to Beta values. It represents a block to the usual competitive attitudes that Betas go by, hence Socialism cannot be associated with Fe.

    - That every Delta type has "Ti/Fe" in their Super-Ego aka "social control" block.

    - The Enneagram social instinct - it increases the value of social/community affiliation in a person's life and it is widespread across every quadrant, including ones that value Fi.

    In closing, even though I'm Fe/Ti valuing, state mandated Communism sounded like a really, really stupid idea all the way back in kindergarten, at age 6, having been raised in a post-Communist state and having been taught some of the Communist ideals. Right now, living in a town that is the socialist leftist liberal paradise, I must say IEE is a very common type to see at the "down-with-capitalism" rallies here. They are protesting the violations that Capitalism brings to the 'human state' and the human rights - +Fi. So I don't think the answer is as simplistic Te/Fi=is pro Capitalism and Fe/Ti=is pro Communism, and certainly not the reason to imply that someone might be mistyped if they aren't subscribing to a certain political ideology.
    This is actually very interesting - I probably haven't considered other aspects of typing. I have read about the Reinin dichotomies and find some of them poorly defined and therefore of questionable validity. The aristocratic/democratic dichotomy in particular always seemed at odds with Fe/Fi valuing, which I found strange. Still, the point of this thread was to start a conversation, along with a little bit of edge by putting my judgmental opinion at the end. Good way to start fiery debates, in my experience.

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    dunno man, I'm a total Fe valuer but I am also a total supporter of Ashtonian/cpig-style capitalism over socialism and communism/collectivism/socialism. I don't think you have to look like some constipated un-feeling shit head (like Ayn Rand ha!) to be a capitalist but okay, I can see how people get that misunderstanding. Capitalism has the stereotype of an obnoxious heartless str8 man in a business suit abrasively yelling at people, but at its heart I find it to be much more moral and ethical than the other way around, really.

    True marxism sounds interesting on paper but there's no real creativity or innovation with that, it feels awfully stagnant and people would rebel by nature from that... to uphold the false-utopia you'd have to employ some evil asshole dictator that's even worse than the obnoxious heartless str8 male business guy everybody likes to complain about. Socialism is what... evil big brother in complete control with no balance. Disgusting.

    Any system is going to crush our little hearts, I just find capitalist crushes it the least. And competition is normal and healthy- can't really make it go away.

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    also I feel our natural personality differences compliment a capitalist system much better. Some people are naturally bossy and like to tell others what to do, others are more passive and like to follow orders. Also, we're all born with highly different skillsets and unique gifts.

    capitalism yes, overly rewards the obnoxious narc douchebag (Oprah, Trump , that blonde cunt on Shark Tank that I want to personally headbutt in the face while saying something witty....) it's a big WIN for them and a smaller dick-sized win for the average worker below them, but... the other alternative would be that nobody wins (since by nature everybody can't win, so if you try and make it where everything is fair- what you actually do is make it where everybody really gets nothing, and that leads to crime/death and decay), and we all would have shit on our cupcakes. Like that my little pony episode!!! and in another system, an even more annoying and douchebaggier person would take their place, a pure sadist obsessed with 'order' and 'everybody following the rules and being the same' that..... it just doesn't work. It chains the human spirit too much. Let us not resurrect ****** out of namby pamby good intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    dunno man, I'm a total Fe valuer but I am also a total supporter of Ashtonian/cpig-style capitalism over socialism and communism/collectivism/socialism. I don't think you have to look like some constipated un-feeling shit head (like Ayn Rand ha!) to be a capitalist but okay, I can see how people get that misunderstanding. Capitalism has the stereotype of an obnoxious heartless str8 man in a business suit abrasively yelling at people, but at its heart I find it to be much more moral and ethical than the other way around, really.

    True marxism sounds interesting on paper but there's no real creativity or innovation with that, it feels awfully stagnant and people would rebel by nature from that... to uphold the false-utopia you'd have to employ some evil asshole dictator that's even worse than the obnoxious heartless str8 male business guy everybody likes to complain about. Socialism is what... evil big brother in complete control with no balance. Disgusting.

    Any system is going to crush our little hearts, I just find capitalist crushes it the least. And competition is normal and healthy- can't really make it go away.
    Read Brave New World. Capitalism ends up authoritarian lol.

    Probably the best thing is freedom/independence plus a safety net of some kind.

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    Bertrand's Avatar
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    I think it has to do with benefit rings, LSI/EIE and ILI/SEE are the more socially conscious rings, being evolutionary, and they go back and forth on how to best run society and are more about status and control. SLE/IEI and LIE/ESI are more about material wealth and acquisition. many SLE/IEIs are more materialistic than most gammas (especially in a late gamma culture like USA--they are looping on the rings, making deeper rungs on the LIE/ESI social order).. when that ring exhausts itself ESI turns it over to delta, which is not really about surplus wealth but conservation, albeit with a materially oriented mindset, so it can often get mistaken for pure "materialism"

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    Xaiviay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    also I feel our natural personality differences compliment a capitalist system much better. Some people are naturally bossy and like to tell others what to do, others are more passive and like to follow orders. Also, we're all born with highly different skillsets and unique gifts.
    I totally agree with this^

    Also, for the OP, I'm not leaning towards Socialism/Communism either. I could speak purely from my feeling and give many reasons why I don't like it (#1 reason: I don't like when people have their free will impinged upon). I'm pretty much the same as you, here:
    NB. I personally consider myself to be socially libertarian, whilst being fiscally conservative and pro-small government. I am openly opposed to socialism and social justice in all its forms, having seen the destruction and oppression those ideologies have wrought on society, whether through communist governments of the past, or the oppressive and sometimes violent de-platforming and political correctness culture of the last 5-10 years through AntiFa or the SJWs.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Just a quick reminder, let´s not confuse capitalism with free market.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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