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Thread: Strengthening of Feeling in women and Thinking in men

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    Default Strengthening of Feeling in women and Thinking in men

    Usually when women in my town type themselves they come up with feeling type even when they are clearly thinking type. And men come up with thinking even they are clearly feeling types.

    For example, I know one ILE-IEE couple and ILE woman thinks she's IEE and IEE man thinks he's a ILE. And so they test like that in tests.

    The IEE guy says he is definitely Thinking type and that he is using logic in every situation, but by my judgement he is all Feeling type and fails in logical reasoning very badly and he's really a bad thinker making very poor decisions at work. He is also very bad example of IEE, he is like with almost no brains when it comes to serious situations and he is also very paranoid. He is also very greedy and jealous. To the point he can go against the law. He many times made a decision which was supposed to bring you lot's of money but brought police or dismissal from job instead. He also says he couldnt live without his family.
    The ILE woman thinks she's Feeling type but at the same time she does nasty things I would never do myself. Like emotional sabotage in all possible forms, is very career-oriented (more than a guy), changes jobs very often and every time she works in different town, hundreds kilometres apart, living without her family, and barely having any boyfriends but being very attractive.

    So my question is, what is the nature of strengthening T and F, because from what I can see, it works the way that it affects self-perception but fails to deliver in real-world. There appears to be some strengthening because people tend to report it themselves but this is not visible in thinking or in actions, so I think this has only to do with perceived stereotypes and it affects self-reporting but there isn't actually any strengthening happening at all, not in socionics way, i.e. not when it comes to processing information, there isn't more of measurable F in female ILE, and there isn't more of measurable T in male IEE, not even quite a bit. It's still skewing up the results badly.

    But, the ILE women appear of course more feminine than ILE guys, but does that have any impact on information processing? Do all women have one point up to feeling? And how significant it would be? Because I can't confirm this in real life except for self-reporting which is quite interesting.

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    I like this, but I have no answers, I think you're right about the fact that this happens

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    I think it's because of hormones.. That females tends to be more feely due to more estrogens that makes a woman feminine.. Because tbh, woman are built naturally to be more feminine and femininity are attached with being more feely or understanding than males.

    While males are built to be more masculine, and feel masculine so they appear to be thinkers more.

    Or maybe it isn't related. To be honest, it's easy to determine in real life if one is a feeler or a thinker..

    Like, good example is my ILI female coworker.. She's really an Ni-Te.. But she uses Fi in socialing and associating with people.. But you'll know she's Ni-Te by the way she thinks whenever we discuss on meetings and she really doesn't use Fi by default, only when she's trying to be nice..

    I don't think thinker females looks boyish, or incapable of feelings.

    Nor thinker males are incapable of feelings too. Because a good example is ILE guys, ILE guys i know are very sensitive to people. What i mean by sensitive is, they're aware of people's emotions.. Like my ILE cousin, he always jokes all the time and he seem not very serious because he's like 7w6. But you know, my grandpa birthday comes and my family are mostly Si valuers they just do events but they are not really that sweet enough nor shows feely shit towards another.. But my ILE cousin be like.. **you should..... Do this to grandpa because he will be definitely happy with this***

    Like he knows how will make our grandfather happy and Si valuers even fail to consider that.. My ILe is sometimes an asshole because he will calls you noob, or something else insensitive but when it comes to things like that.. He's emotionally aware.

    Feelings/Thinking types are really over-rated..
    Online most autists are considered to be thinkers. Like if you are emotionally aware you're gonna tagged as Feelers.

    And i also noticed online, vs real life.. Most introverts are very sociable online than in real life. So typing would be flawed if you type based on their online personas.

    And most extroverts uses mainstream medias like Facebook, IG, etc most of the time.

    Intuitives mostly are into psychology and shit..

    I think this server, any Se dom unless they're a bit unhealthy would not be interested to be here..

    I think most the Intuitives are avid users of here.

    And people see me as a sensor but i think in real life I'm not that very sensory no shame like my Sensor friends especially SEE's

    See just dances and they have no fucking shame. Lol. If I'm sEE i would post my pictures here all the time without even rethinking about it. But i don't.

    Typing me as SEE isn't accurate as all either.

    I'm definitely type 7 and type 7 SEE will never hangout in this place. It's almost impossible.

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    Well that's why you are supposed to use logic and ethic instead of thinking and feeling. This is Socionics 101.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domr View Post
    Well that's why you are supposed to use logic and ethic instead of thinking and feeling. This is Socionics 101.
    Hypocrite. You are using some IE+ instead of what everyone is using. That's unreadable to every new person here. And thinking / feeling is obvious to everyone.

    Also I don't like this two ethical term. Ethicals are rarely ethical and not more ethical than logical types so I don't like to spread this misconception.
    Last edited by falsehope; 06-21-2018 at 11:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falsehope View Post
    Hypocrite. You are using some IE+ instead of what everyone is using. That's unreadable to every new person here. And thinking / feeling is obvious to everyone.

    Also I don't like this two ethical term. Ethicals are rarely ethical and not more ethical than logical types so I don't like to spread this misconception.
    Humans interpet thinking and feeling as rational / emotional (irrational) or right / arbitrary. It creates a huge bias. Especially because of the existing bias caused by Jung & MBTI.
    Humans interpet logic and ethic as both rational and good. No bias. It clearly identifies the subject area. Is a person trying to make decisions based on true/false or good/bad?

    If you use thinking and feeling then you are poisoning your own work. Augusta realized this and that is why she changed it from thinking/emotion to logic/ethic.

    Being a logical type doesn't make a person good at logic. Logical types can, and often are, illogical. Likewise for ethical types being unethical. Decision-making abilities must be learned and developed though experience.

    P.S. IL+L is a lot better than ENTp-Ti. I'm not using MBTI labels because I don't want any affiliation with them and Socionics notion is insufficient.

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    yeah yeah we get it you have a random ass standard as if that wasn't blatantly obvious from the get go. all language is loaded because as soon as people get their hands on it they inject their biases and pass them on via usage context tone etc. irrational shouldn't be an "insult" i.e.: carry negative connotations but it does. the problem is you can take the same thing and reduce it a mathematical symbol but that will simply become the new mark of shame in progress. its the same way there's 100 words for retarded and they all started out trying to be neutral. logic or ethics, thinking or feeling, everyone knows what they mean, especially here; whats's really being discussed is how people confuse whatever you want to call it in relation to themselves as a consequence of not being able to see themselves clearly for who knows how many reasons. the problem is not to reshuffle the words once again because that ultimately never ends, its simply to understand what process leads to people thinking they're one way when they're really another. I'm starting to think its actually one of the basic conditions of being human and irreducible but whatever. maybe its simply the disjunction between how people view themselves and how the world views them and perhaps its that disjunction that is impossible to ever fully reconcile, precisely because you cannot know yourself in the way the world knows you and you cannot know another person the way they know themselves, and to ask for more is to want to be God

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    logic or ethics, thinking or feeling, everyone knows what they mean, especially here;


    whats's really being discussed is how people confuse whatever you want to call it in relation to themselves as a consequence of not being able to see themselves clearly for who knows how many reasons
    Like maybe because people don't know what the words mean?

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    My *guess* is people don't compare themselves with other people when taking tests or when typing themselves. I've even had the impulse of answering test questions as a logical/thinking type yet once i stop to compare myself with someone i know for sure (well with high certainty) is LIE for instance the difference becomes glaring so im swayed back to answering the questions as a feeling type. It's all about how much of a feeling or thinking type you are xompared to other people as these are relative strengths. So im suggesting that people don't compare themselves to others when selftyping or testing. This is all i could add.

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    Are you asking about how the bias comes to be or how to strengthen these skills.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    @falsehope Approximately seventy percent of T-types are male and the same percentage of females are F-types so I can see some subconscious desire to be part of the majority. However, a man of any type is usually much different from a female of the same type even though their information processing configurations are identical. I was raised by a very likeable, feminine, nurturing ESTj who aggressively pursued family goals and literally controlled everyone in her life. Being either female or male more often than not creates different sets of life perceptions and goals that greatly impact how our cognitive processes will be applied. One cannot strengthen a processing preference - you either have it or not, and you're stuck with it. One can spend more time in one's secondary processing mode (dual-like) but this usually means that the primary mode is not coping well and there's more at issue......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Approximately seventy percent of T-types are male and the same percentage of females are F-types so I can see some subconscious desire to be part of the majority.
    Absolutely not. Certain professions may be tilted one way or another but 70% is completely nuts - you are claiming there are more than twice as many logical as ethical men, vice versa with women. In reality what you see everywhere is about 50/50 split, which could not be more different from what you are suggesting.

    Your ideas suck and need serious revision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    you are claiming there are more than twice as many logical as ethical men, vice versa with women. In reality what you see everywhere is about 50/50 split, which could not be more different from what you are suggesting.
    "In reality" those numbers are not taken from nowhere like yours, but correlate with the known tests statistics which have shown that majority (60-70%) of women are F and of men are T.
    If you see the other, - type better. The correct understanding of this dichotomy in you would help you in this.

    Other Jung's dichotomies were close to equal there, so it's small chance this is culture norms distortions of the self-peception.

    Also funny is your "everywhere", as types are not spreaded equally, but lean to interests and professions related to type's traits.

    > Your ideas suck and need serious revision.

    this relates to your competence in the subject

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    Absolutely not. Certain professions may be tilted one way or another but 70% is completely nuts - you are claiming there are more than twice as many logical as ethical men, vice versa with women. In reality what you see everywhere is about 50/50 split, which could not be more different from what you are suggesting.

    Your ideas suck and need serious revision.
    The greatest misconceptions are thinking that F-types as the only ethical people, T-types as the only people with logic, N-types as the only ones with intuition and S-types as the ones that sense(?). I am very much a T-type but I'm very ethical. The dictionary meanings often stand in the way of correctly viewing Socionics theory. F-types employ associative (relativistic) rationalization while for Ts, it's absolute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    Absolutely not. Certain professions may be tilted one way or another but 70% is completely nuts - you are claiming there are more than twice as many logical as ethical men, vice versa with women. In reality what you see everywhere is about 50/50 split, which could not be more different from what you are suggesting.

    Your ideas suck and need serious revision.
    What makes you think your non-scientifically-taken observations are more accurate than somebody else’s?
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    The way OP worded this topic is interesting because my initial reaction was disagreement. But then I realized that societal norms may be unconsciously influencing or biasing my perceptions of people as well. So it’s hard to say for me really. I certainly agree that when you look in closer at people’s lives, there are often gaping holes in the “weak IE” areas, particularly in PoLR, even if a person may work very hard to cover it up and make it into a non-issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I am very much a T-type but I'm very ethical.
    eh... the _very_ means more than average. in case you have higher than average T traits, then you have lower than average F ones (not emotional and ethical thinking compared to common social norms. as this is your unconscious - it's harder for you to understand yourself correctly, - useful to ask F types of your value about this)

    Jung and Socionics texts (adequate ones) did not claim that dichotomies are absolute, but not relative in the same human. it's evident we all can to think and to feel, despite the types we have

    > F-types employ associative (relativistic) rationalization

    F function employ the feelings and ethical evaluationans
    as to make associations you may in any of 8 functional regions, what you said is not correct

    do not use heresies

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    do not use heresies” LOL
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    Women and men of a given type often act diffently, they have different goals and natural tendencies because...I assume partially upbringing, partially hormones and such.
    My GF´s mother is LIE and she still cooks for everyone when there is a family dinner and spends a good amount of time on family stuff but what she prefers to be busy with is trying to save on taxes, planning how to improve the house, or spending time with the astronomy club...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    eh... the _very_ means more than average. in case you have higher than average T traits, then you have lower than average F ones (not emotional and ethical thinking compared to common social norms. as this is your unconscious - it's harder for you to understand yourself correctly, - useful to ask F types of your value about this)

    Jung and Socionics texts (adequate ones) did not claim that dichotomies are absolute, but not relative in the same human. it's evident we all can to think and to feel, despite the types we have

    > F-types employ associative (relativistic) rationalization

    F function employ the feelings and ethical evaluationans
    as to make associations you may in any of 8 functional regions, what you said is not correct

    do not use heresies
    I can't help it; I'm an engineer who has spent most of my career associated with artificial intelligence. I see what you see but I have to frame it in more concrete terms. At the least, I bring a fresh perspective.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Women and men of a given type often act diffently, they have different goals and natural tendencies because...I assume partially upbringing, partially hormones and such.
    My GF´s mother is LIE and she still cooks for everyone when there is a family dinner and spends a good amount of time on family stuff but what she prefers to be busy with is trying to save on taxes, planning how to improve the house, or spending time with the astronomy club...
    Kick. Ass. So she likes Astronomy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    The greatest misconceptions are thinking that F-types as the only ethical people, T-types as the only people with logic, N-types as the only ones with intuition and S-types as the ones that sense(?). I am very much a T-type but I'm very ethical. The dictionary meanings often stand in the way of correctly viewing Socionics theory. F-types employ associative (relativistic) rationalization while for Ts, it's absolute.
    I am referring strictly to the socionics sense. For example, my local NBA team this year is mostly ethical types. 2x EII, 1x IEI, 1x SEI, 1x IEE, 1x ESI, 1x SLE, 1x ILE, 1x ILI

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    I am referring strictly to the socionics sense. For example, my local NBA team this year is mostly ethical types. 2x EII, 1x IEI, 1x SEI, 1x IEE, 1x ESI, 1x SLE, 1x ILE, 1x ILI
    I like that you are trying to go off of your real life observations, but have you typed everybody you know to arrive at your conclusions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I like that you are trying to go off of your real life observations, but have you typed everybody you know to arrive at your conclusions?
    I've typed most people that I know, at least ones that I've talked to recently. It took me a solid 5 years but I've learned to assess types very rapidly and accurately

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    I've typed most people that I know, at least ones that I've talked to recently. It took me a solid 5 years but I've learned to assess types very rapidly and accurately
    Ok. So are you saying you’ve counted up these people then and have determined your 50/50 idea from that?

    If you haven’t yet done this, don’t knock someone else’s ideas first. If you have though, you should say that you did it in the first place.
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    Jung's descriptions for T/F are really biased by the society of his time, but this ain't a problem, rather a proof that society can greatly influence the personality of each and every person. Now our society changed very much in the last century, gender roles are less strictly divided, this in parallel with the possibility for women to leave aside that millennial burden imposed by biology: making and raising kids became a less conditioning situation; this is an epochal revolution. It has inevitable repercussions in every aspect of human nature, including personality. Ironic how the symbol of the human of the future is the robot, a hybrid, not a man nor a woman, a self-sufficient being. And we're starting to see this future today.

    Anyway, we are still human and made of flesh, we respond to a biology that can't be changed by 100 years of revolutions, so we're still tied to those T/F distinctions that are not just cultural but even physical, natural. Probably hormones are the cause of that T/F difference, along with the very structure of our bodies. I've always seen F as more complete than T, because if T, at its best, thinks from above and doesn't make a preference unless "logical", F at its best should instead embrace the parts, like a hug. This is probably just my bias since I'm a woman... but, to discern or to comprehend? This is the question.

    Not all women are F and not all men are T, but these two functions maintain a natural masculine/feminine polarity that is still essential to our nature. So most women are F and most men are T because biology pushes everyone to develop their own essence, but once this essence meets the outside world with its demands it changes and bends with what the outside world needs, so that everyone is a result of their nature and of the nurture that it receives.

    In a society that doesn't distinguish much between genders and gender roles, T/F becomes more and more of a fluid distinction, because what do you mean by feeling and thinking? Don't we have both? Aren't T choices made around a personal understanding of what would be better? And isn't F thinking of how to make the parties meet and so evaluates a situation in all its parts? Isn't feeling inside thinking and the other way around, interchangeably? I think so... so where's the line? A big part is played by the context in which these essential differences develop, when the environment imposes some standards, for example: men are the ones who work for a family's income and women stay at home and take care of babies and whatnot; for this case the original biological tendencies bloomed into the old fashioned stereotypes on T/F that we know from Jung, but they weren't the rule when Jung depicted them and they're even less effective today. Maybe we need stereotypes updated to our fluidity, maybe they're already there and Idk.

    Sorry this is so long, but the last note for the tests. I think some tests fit better to some people and some to others. One can find the truth in one test and another one can be tricked into something wrong by the same test, it depends by many things. As a general rule, extroverts have it easier. But even there, some tests are just shallow and have created an army of INTJs out of nerds that play videogames for a half of their time. Even in good tests some questions are contextual and it's difficult to understand how to apply them, for example, I happen to score T at times with questions like "do you take care of others/ people close to you?", or "do you put someone else's needs in front of yourself?", because in that period I'm alone and don't really have to do any of that, so I answer with no/low score, but without counting all the times I go out of my way to meet someone else's needs. Do I do it? No. Would I be willing to? Yes. So much to get out of my way? Depends, of course.

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    If tests are self-report method, they will likely be skewed somewhat by the subjects responding how they think they should, and/or conceiving of themselves in terms of their gender roles.

    Gender roles also may actually strengthen F in some women T types, and vice versa, and I’m not sure if this would actually change a type or just mask a type, or both.

    The 70/30 T-F split is the best data we have for now, though, to my knowledge, and worth bearing in mind.
    Last edited by golden; 06-23-2018 at 08:51 PM.
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    Indeed, a quite valid and attractive thought / question @falsehope
    I have also noticed this often among the people I know. However, I would claim it is different in different cultural backgrounds. My childhood friend with whom we have always been very close, even from distance, is (I claim, definitely) an SLI. Middle eastern culture has taught her to be a good girl; she is a good girl. She tested MBTI and got ISFJ. She read the descriptions and was originally quite skeptical about whether or not it is a bad thing or if it means she might not be intelligent enough. She was happy after some reading though. I think it fitted perfectly to her idea of who she thought would best fit the norm of where she believes she belongs.

    Her husband, obviously an IEE (still, I claim so) tests something different everytime, but definitely logic / thinking type and introverted. He is clearly none of those, and they are clearly duals. I read Stratievskaya's IEE article to him. He was amazed at how accurate it was describing him and started calling me "doctor" ever since.
    Other IEE friends of mine have a similar situation though (only guessing here). They have a certain insisting behavior to fight against anyone who would tell them: "your logic is flawed". It depends also on the field of studies and area of work. They adapt their answers to the typing questions based on their feeling about their image, or something like that. So are SEEs (perhaps, never seen a testing-based example from them). However, not every middle eastern girl I know has preferred to be a good girl per say. I know a girl who knew she was ILE, and she surely was.

    I have had a German LSI guy test SEI. Would that mean that in Germany feeling / ethics is more accepted in the society norms? Given the way Germans use / misuse the word " social", I could imagine that it is actually so (but only with Fe. Fi is not allowed here).

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    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    my local NBA team this year is mostly ethical types. 2x EII, 1x IEI, 1x SEI, 1x IEE, 1x ESI, 1x SLE, 1x ILE, 1x ILI
    nice Team!!! In my field (engineering), and my team, there are SLE, ILE, LSI, ESE, LII, SEE and LIE. Two new members I have not typed yet but probably IEI and ESE. I could use the teamwork with any potential EII, ESI, SLI, IEE or ILI quite a lot I think. Pity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Women and men of a given type often act diffently, they have different goals and natural tendencies because...I assume partially upbringing, partially hormones and such.
    My GF´s mother is LIE and she still cooks for everyone when there is a family dinner and spends a good amount of time on family stuff but what she prefers to be busy with is trying to save on taxes, planning how to improve the house, or spending time with the astronomy club...
    Oh look! Someone else living in Germany! Yayyy

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    ...another guy from Germany here.
    Grüß Gott nach München.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    ...another guy from Germany here.
    Grüß Gott nach München.
    Servus! Gute Nacht

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Kick. Ass. So she likes Astronomy?
    Yeah, ahah, she was also president of the club for a while.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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