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Thread: Democratic Presidential Debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Not anymore.
    LOL. Yeah, there's still an incentive and drive to assimilate.

    That's a retcon adaptation borne from the 20th century, contemporaneous with the 1965 Immigration Act. Has little to do with what America's historical character had been 200-300 years prior.
    The biggest migrant wave started in the 19th century when the circle of racial acceptability grew from Anglosaxon to encompass the other races of Europe. The continued growth of that circle and the shedding of ignorance about other races isn't a retcon and is wholly precedential.

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    That only says about how the human genes have endowed us with the ability to have cultural evolution, which may affect our gene evolution.

    But since our cultures evolve in a timespan of decades versus the gene evolution of hundreds to thousands of generations, the effect of gene evolution is easily dwarfed by cultural evolution. The entire point is that cultures affect our genes and less the other way around.

    Besides it has nothing do with your point, where you say that for example "black genes" have black culture, and "white genes" have white culture and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    LOL. Yeah, there's still an incentive and drive to assimilate.
    You don't live here, how would you know?

    The biggest migrant wave started in the 19th century when the circle of racial acceptability grew from Anglosaxon to encompass the other races of Europe. The continued growth of that circle and the shedding of ignorance about other races isn't a retcon and wholly precedential.
    No, we're now living in the midst of the largest wave of immigration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    That only says about how the human genes have endowed us with the ability to have cultural evolution, which may affect our gene evolution.

    But since our cultures evolve in a timespan of decades versus the gene evolution of hundreds to thousands of generations, the effect of gene evolution is easily dwarfed by cultural evolution. The entire point is that cultures affect our genes and less the other way around.
    Says culture & genetic evolution are an inseparable dynamic. Not a controversial argument at this point.

    Influence of culture upon genetic population can happen fast—a few generations of intensive selection is enough. See Silver Fox experiment.

    Besides it has nothing do with your point, where you say that for example "black genes" have black culture, and "white genes" have white culture and so on.
    Was addressed upthread, no need to rehash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    That only says about how the human genes have endowed us with the ability to have cultural evolution, which may affect our gene evolution.

    But since our cultures evolve in a timespan of decades versus the gene evolution of hundreds to thousands of generations, the effect of gene evolution is easily dwarfed by cultural evolution. The entire point is that cultures affect our genes and less the other way around.

    Besides it has nothing do with your point, where you say that for example "black genes" have black culture, and "white genes" have white culture and so on.
    Actually, genes change in significant ways within an organism whenever their environment changes, but that's not a very sexy fact in most people's opinions so people ignore it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Unless I am interpreting the statistics incorrectly. Close to a third of Swedes are currently half Swedish or less or 24.1% of Swedes if you want to only count those that are not Swedish at all. If 8.1% of Swedes are currently Muslim then that means non-Muslim non-native Swedes are 2 to 3 times larger than Muslim native Swedes.
    I tried to find more official sources but couldn't understand Swedish, so I had to rely on Wikipedia. Below is the list of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants to Sweden born abroad or with two parents born abroad:


    * Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Former Yugoslavia (176 033)
    * Syria Syria (172,258)
    * Finland Finland (150,887)
    * Iraq Iraq (144 035)
    * Poland Poland (92 759)
    * Iran Iran (77 386)
    * Somalia Somalia (68 678)
    * Germany Germany (50,863)
    * Turkey Turkey (49 948)
    * Afghanistan Afghanistan (43,991)
    * Thailand Thailand (41,240)
    * Eritrea Eritrea (42 300)
    * Norway Norway (41 747)
    * Denmark Denmark (40 011)
    * India India (35 234)
    * China China (33 288)
    * Romania Romania (31 040)
    * Chile Chile (27,996)
    * United Kingdom United Kingdom (27,658)
    * Lebanon Lebanon (27,487)


    I bolded the origin countries of Swedish residents that aren't majority Muslim. I underlined the ones that are already in Europe, most of which are already part of the EU and have open border arrangements with Sweden. The non-European demographic threat seems quite exaggerated if this data is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Unless I am interpreting the statistics incorrectly. Close to a third of Swedes are currently half Swedish or less or 24.1% of Swedes if you want to only count those that are not Swedish at all. If 8.1% of Swedes are currently Muslim then that means non-Muslim non-native Swedes are 2 to 3 times larger than Muslim native Swedes.
    Seems like this is the basic breakdown:

    Ethnic Groups in Sweden:

    86% European (76% Swedes and 10% Rest)
    7% Middle East & North Africa (3% Arabs and 4% Others/Turks, Kurds and Persians…)
    2.5% Sub Saharan Africa (Mainly from Horn of Africa.)
    1.5% Asian
    2% Are Others (Mainly MultiRacial, Americas and Oceania)

    You're imagining that Sweden is swamped by Arabs and Muslim foreigners, because again, you're likely taking your sources from biased right-wing sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    You don't live here, how would you know?
    How do you know what's going on?? Don't tell me your personal anecdotes are evidence-worthy. Besides, everyone watches American media (which includes blogs/vlogs) and is familiar with the outlines of the situation. But that's beside the point, because the idea that historically unequal people don't have an incentive to be considered equals is exceptionally stupid.


    No, we're now living in the midst of the largest wave of immigration.
    The 1860s-1920s wave was fucking huge and significantly changed the character of the country; the world didn't end, a porthole to hell didn't open up on Ellis Island, and America experienced a golden age as the world's dominant culture as a direct result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Says culture & genetic evolution are an inseparable dynamic. Not a controversial argument at this point.
    It only says that things like our in-born genetic propensity for fairness, empathy, our ability to speak and so on have made it possible to have our current culture as well as cultural evolution. And those traits are universal, it's not as if only certain races have those traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Influence of culture upon genetic population can happen fast—a few generations of intensive selection is enough. See Silver Fox experiment.
    So... if that were true, wouldn't that invalidate your idea that immigrants would destroy the country, since culture's influence is stronger than gene's influence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I tried to find more official sources but couldn't understand Swedish, so I had to rely on Wikipedia. Below is the list of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants to Sweden born abroad or with two parents born abroad:


    * Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Former Yugoslavia (176 033)
    * Syria Syria (172,258)
    * Finland Finland (150,887)
    * Iraq Iraq (144 035)
    * Poland Poland (92 759)
    * Iran Iran (77 386)
    * Somalia Somalia (68 678)
    * Germany Germany (50,863)
    * Turkey Turkey (49 948)
    * Afghanistan Afghanistan (43,991)
    * Thailand Thailand (41,240)
    * Eritrea Eritrea (42 300)
    * Norway Norway (41 747)
    * Denmark Denmark (40 011)
    * India India (35 234)
    * China China (33 288)
    * Romania Romania (31 040)
    * Chile Chile (27,996)
    * United Kingdom United Kingdom (27,658)
    * Lebanon Lebanon (27,487)


    I bolded the origin countries of Swedish residents that aren't majority Muslim. I underlined the ones that are already in Europe, most of which are already part of the EU and have open border arrangements with Sweden. The non-European demographic threat seems quite exaggerated if this data is correct.
    Yeah, this seems legit. I used wikipedia as well. That's where I got this from:

    As of 2017, Statistics Sweden reported that around 2,439,007 or 24.1% of the inhabitants of Sweden were from a foreign background: that is, each such person either had been born abroad or had been born in Sweden to two parents who themselves had both been born abroad. Also taking into account people with only one parent born abroad, this number increases to almost a third in 2017.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...n#Demographics

    I guess a good percentage of non-Swedes are actually European so the number of Muslim/African migrants in Sweden is much lower than that statistic showed. I failed to take into consideration that a lot of Swedish immigrants are from Europe. So going by Singu's numbers, it is 14% non-European currently, but at the rate of mass immigration, it will eventually reach over 50% in this century making native Swedes a minority in their own country even if you ignore other Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Seems like this is the basic breakdown:

    Ethnic Groups in Sweden:

    86% European (76% Swedes and 10% Rest)
    7% Middle East & North Africa (3% Arabs and 4% Others/Turks, Kurds and Persians…)
    2.5% Sub Saharan Africa (Mainly from Horn of Africa.)
    1.5% Asian
    2% Are Others (Mainly MultiRacial, Americas and Oceania)

    You're imagining that Sweden is swamped by Arabs and Muslim foreigners, because again, you're likely taking your sources from biased right-wing sources.
    Wikipedia is a biased right wing source?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...n#Demographics

    Anyways, the percentages I used counted European immigrants, which is why the number was so high. Anyways, 14% is not alarming of course, but at current mass immigration into Sweden rates it will eventually overcome Sweden's native population at over 50% making them a minority in their own country even when ignoring European immigrants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    How do you know what's going on?? Don't tell me your personal anecdotes are evidence-worthy. Besides, everyone watches American media (which includes blogs/vlogs) and is familiar with the outlines of the situation.
    It's a skin-in-game issue. The entire tract of reasoning is unmoored from any real stakes.

    Ceteris paribus, people who don't live in the US can't be expected to form epistemically coherent opinions about the US.

    But that's beside the point, because the idea that historically unequal people don't have an incentive to be considered equals is exceptionally stupid.
    No longer the case when identity politics is in vogue.

    The 1860s-1920s wave was fucking huge and significantly changed the character of the country; the world didn't end, a porthole to hell didn't open up on Ellis Island, and America experienced a golden age as the world's dominant culture as a direct result.
    The 1965-Present wave is now bigger than that, and shows no signs of decelerating anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Anyways, the percentages I used counted European immigrants, which is why the number was so high. Anyways, 14% is not alarming of course, but at current mass immigration into Sweden rates it will eventually overcome Sweden's native population at over 50% making them a minority in their own country even when ignoring European immigrants.
    Well most Swedes don't care about immigrants and what race or ethnicity they are, so why do you care? If they wanted, they could simply stop immigrants from immigrating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Well most Swedes don't care about immigrants and what race or ethnicity they are, so why do you care? If they wanted, they could simply stop immigrants from immigrating.
    You're making assumptions on what Swedes believe and how much power they have. A lot of Swedes do care based on the ones I've talked to. It's the politicians that don't care and are making decisions for them. Sure, you can vote them out in theory, but if 51% vote for a pro immigrant party and 49% vote for an anti-immigrant party then that means 49% of Swedes are left disenfranchised. Especially, if a portion of the 51% are recent immigrants and are more likely to vote for a pro immigrant party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    It only says that things like our in-born genetic propensity for fairness, empathy, our ability to speak and so on have made it possible to have our current culture as well as cultural evolution. And those traits are universal, it's not as if only certain races have those traits.
    It suggests that Europe already went through a lengthy period (a few thousand years) of low-intensity culling wherein traits more conducive to modern civilization were selected for.

    This process is still ongoing. But may not be sufficiently durable to repeat with a glut of premodern entrants.

    So... if that were true, wouldn't that invalidate your idea that immigrants would destroy the country, since culture's influence is stronger than gene's influence?
    You said it takes "millions of years" for genetic evolution to evince itself. I merely provide example of (artificial) rapid selection demonstrating dramatic phenotypical changes within a very short timeframe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    It's a skin-in-game issue. The entire tract of reasoning is unmoored from any real stakes.

    Ceteris paribus, people who don't live in the US can't be expected to form epistemically coherent opinions about the US.

    No longer the case when identity politics is in vogue.

    The 1965-Present wave is now bigger than that, and shows no signs of decelerating anytime soon.
    Regarding your first point: lolwut??? Then stop having "epistemically incoherent" opinions about anything that you're not personally involved in: like immigration to Europe.

    Regarding identity politics: not sure how you measured what's in vogue, but judging from the Internet, a chunk of practitioners of identity politics are White identitarians who can't stand the sight of Black people. When Black seperatism becomes Bernie Sanders' platform (it won't), then you'd be right to invoke Leftist identity politics as a threat to the melting pot idea.

    Regarding migration: no, the 19th century wave was bigger. By 1920, only 45% of Americans were ethnically British or German -- down from 90% in the mid 19th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Regarding your first point: lolwut??? Then stop having "epistemically incoherent" opinions about anything that you're not personally involved in: like immigration to Europe.
    Funny… since I've only been talking about contemporary US immigration trends with you.

    Regarding identity politics: not sure how you measured what's in vogue, but the main practitioners of identity politics are White identitarians who can't stand the sight of Black people. When Black seperatism becomes Bernie Sanders' platform (it won't), then you'd be right to invoke identity politics as a threat to the melting pot idea.
    Lol, it's in vogue for everyone.

    Regarding migration: no, the 19th century wave was bigger. By 1920, only 45% of Americans were ethnically British or German -- down from 90% in the mid 19th century.
    Raw % foreign-born is at parity w/ C19th wave, will soon exceed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Funny… since I've only been talking about contemporary US immigration trends with you.
    You literally talked with someone else about Europe a few posts ago.


    Lol, it's in vogue for everyone.
    Absolutely not. If anybody's proposing straight-up racial segregation, it isn't the side that celebrates mixed-race couples; not by any stretch of the imagination.


    Raw % foreign-born is at parity w/ C19th wave, will soon exceed it.
    Absolutely not. Non-Hispanic whites make up about 60%, which is blatantly not at parity with 45%. Even if it were, so what? You have yet to present me with compelling evidence that the society won't stay the same or become better as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    You literally talked with someone else about Europe a few posts ago.
    That was concerning the topical matter of a research paper, my dude.

    Absolutely not. If anybody's proposing straight-up racial segregation, it isn't the side that celebrates mixed-race couples; not by any stretch of the imagination.
    They propose reparations and cry about metaphysical spooks like 'institutional racism/homophobia/whatever', etc. It's identity politics.

    Absolutely not. Non-Hispanic whites make up about 60%, which is blatantly not at parity with 45%. Even if it were, so what? You have yet to present me with compelling evidence that the society won't stay the same or become better as a result.
    Don't be mendacious now. %-foreign born was ~15% at peak of the C19th wave. It now stands around 14% and is set to surpass it soon (or already has assuming these figures don't account for illegals).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    That was concerning the topical matter of a research paper, my dude.
    Which is still part of a discussion about migrants to Europe.


    They propose reparations and cry about metaphysical spooks like 'institutional racism/homophobia/whatever', etc. It's identity politics.
    The discussion was about melting pot vs. segregation. The politics you just mentioned isn't identity politics in the sense of creating segregationist movements; quite the opposite in fact, because dissolving barriers to institutions nicely dovetails into the goal of creating a melting pot.


    Don't be mendacious now. %-foreign born was ~15% at peak of the C19th wave. It now stands around 14% and is set to surpass it soon.
    Not mendacious. My claim was that 60% of Americans are non-Hispanic Whites. Much of the 14% migrant figure also includes people who originate from European communities with established roots in the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Which is still part of a discussion about migrants to Europe.
    It concerns the cultural-evolutionary emergence of modern Europeans (of which we could include White Americans). It wasn't specific to current immigration trends in Europe.

    The discussion was about melting pot vs. segregation. The politics you just mentioned isn't identity politics in the sense of creating segregationist movements; quite the opposite in fact, because dissolving barriers to institutions nicely dovetails into the goal of creating a melting pot.
    Political agitation to reward one's preferred ethnic bloc constitutes identity politics, whatever form that happens to take—segregation, reparations, or what have you.

    Not mendacious. My claim was that 60% of Americans are non-Hispanic Whites. Much of the 14% migrant figure also includes people who originate from European communities with established roots in the United States.
    Post-1965 immigration has been predominantly non-European. Without it, the US would still be 75% non-Hispanic White:



    As for total %-foreign born, this is where we're at and where we're projected to go:


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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    It concerns the cultural-evolutionary emergence of modern Europeans (of which we could include White Americans). It wasn't specific to current immigration trends in Europe.
    No, it was part of a broader conversation about migration to Europe; saying that you aren't taking a side in that conversation is a lie. More importantly, who gives a fuck? Third parties are allowed to express opinions about things that don't directly concern them; whether or not an opinion has value is based on its logical and factual truth.


    Political agitation to reward one's preferred ethnic bloc constitutes identity politics, whatever form that happens to take—segregation, reparations, or what have you.
    The original discussion was about assimilation vs. segregation. You said that identity politics stands in the way of creating a melting pot, so I'll reiterate: the avowed policy, by the left, of removing institutional barriers is geared towards the creation of a melting pot. That is all.


    Post-1965 immigration has been predominantly non-European. Without it, the US would still be 75% non-Hispanic White:



    As for total %-foreign born, this is where we're at and where we're projected to go:

    No, because the population is still 60% White, meaning that there has been less transformation as a result of this migrant wave. Even so: 60%, 45%, 1%, it doesn't matter -- the only important question is whether immigration is good or bad; posting "scary" projections as though the evils of immigration were self-evident isn't very convincing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    No, it was part of a broader conversation about migration to Europe; saying that you aren't taking a side in that conversation is a lie.
    Was a totally different conversation thread about biological-cultural coevolution.

    More importantly, who gives a fuck? Third parties are allowed to express opinions about things that don't directly concern them; whether or not an opinion has value is based on its logical and factual truth.
    And opinions are suspect—especially those about places in which those opining do not live.

    The original discussion was about assimilation vs. segregation. You said that identity politics stands in the way of creating a melting pot, so I'll reiterate: the avowed policy, by the left, of removing institutional barriers is geared towards the creation of a melting pot. That is all.
    It's all identity politics just the same.

    No, because the population is still 60% White, meaning that there has been less transformation as a result of this migrant wave. Even so: 60%, 45%, 1%, it doesn't matter -- the only important question is whether immigration is good or bad; posting "scary" projections as though the evils of immigration were self-evident isn't very convincing.
    Comparison was between %-foreign born, then and now. Stay on topic, bud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Was a totally different conversation thread about biological-cultural coevolution.

    And opinions are suspect—especially those about places in which those opining do not live.
    Then please keep that in mind the next time you're tempted to give your opinion on 99.9999...% of all other topics.


    It's all identity politics just the same.
    No it isn't.


    Comparison was between %-foreign born, then and now. Stay on topic, bud.
    %-foreign born was higher then.
    %-foreign born + descendant was much higher then.

    Hope that clears it up.
    Last edited by xerx; 07-11-2019 at 04:18 AM. Reason: typo

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    The racism is strong in this thread.

    It should have ended with @Singu here: "Do you honestly think that 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants and beyond feel any different from the natives? Do you really think that the reason why you feel "Canadian" is because of your race? I really don't see why race and ethnicity should matter at all, unless there are certain ideologies that make them keep certain identities, such as religion."
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Violent inclusivity doesn't make it better.

    Besides, ethnics in America now make it clear that they either have no interest in assimilation, or that 'American' must be altered into a devoid abstraction divorced from history in order to accommodate them.
    "Ethnics in America"? Who are they? Sorry if it's already mentioned somewhere - there is too much racist drivel disguised as "too many immigrants" in this thread to read carefully.
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    PS: My sincerest apologies for coming to this country and standing with the "ethnics." I also took a job from an American citizen.

    I only tell people I am an immigrant, not where I am from. It really bothers them because they suspect I am Latina because of my first name and looks. I have had it happen too many times that people were visible relieved when they heard I am German to do them the favor. Anti-immigration is always racist. I could walk into a Trump rally and say I am undocumented, but I am also German. They would bear hug me and tell me Mr. Trump will fix the immigration system so I can be legal because they love adding white people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    The racism is strong in this thread.

    It should have ended with @Singu here: "Do you honestly think that 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants and beyond feel any different from the natives? Do you really think that the reason why you feel "Canadian" is because of your race? I really don't see why race and ethnicity should matter at all, unless there are certain ideologies that make them keep certain identities, such as religion."
    I fail to see how there is racism in this thread. It is just a debate of very different ideas on immigration. Trying to win the debate by attempting to take the moral high ground of claiming racism where there is none is not the way to do it.

    Anyways, me and @xerxe have very similar ideas on how immigration should be handled in Canada, US, Australia and NZ via cultural assimilation from all ethnicities and controlled immigration. Where we differ almost completely is on how immigration should be handled in Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    I fail to see how there is racism in this thread. It is just a debate of very different ideas on immigration. Trying to win the debate by taking the moral high ground of claiming racism where there is none is not the way to do it.

    Anyways, me and @xerxe have very similar ideas on how immigration should be in Canada, US, Australia and NZ via cultural assimilation from all ethnicities and controlled immigration. Where we disagree completely is on how immigration should be handled in Europe.
    The only way to handle it is to stop messing with global south politics, stop exploiting people, and acting as if this is happening in a vacuum. The same governments that profit off conflicts such as the one in Syria in a myriad of ways are the ones turning against the refugees they themselves have created. Europe has created the West African countries that send immigrants today. There is no moral ground for not taking in people fleeing from these countries, not on a humanitarian level, and not on a historical level. Western countries need to step up to the plate, quit whining, and take a serious look at how complicit they are.

    Europe profited from colonialism that in the long run created migration movements. Former settler colonies like the U.S., Canada, Australia, and NZ stole land, murdered indigenous people, and brought people in. So no citizen in Europe and the former settler colonies gets to cry about immigrants and ethnic diversity. It's laughable and pathetic.
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    For the most part, 2nd/3rd generation immigrants would have completely assimilated to the host culture, and they're virtually indistinguishable from the natives.

    For instance, there are white people who grew up in China, and they grow up feeling that they're completely "Chinese" and not "white" or "European", until that is, they're treated differently by everyone around them, and are sometimes discriminated against. They grow up and spend most of their lives thinking that they're Chinese and not anything else, because they've never even lived outside of the country and don't know anything else. Some of them may not even speak any European languages.

    In the West, individuality and individual freedom are typically more afforded and encouraged, so people are encouraged to express their racial and ethnic heritage and identities more.

    It is ironic that some people who claim to be the bastion of Western culture are looking down on this ideal of individual freedom and expression of the self.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    The only way to handle it is to stop messing with global south politics, stop exploiting people, and acting as if this is happening in a vacuum. The same governments that profit off conflicts such as the one in Syria in a myriad of ways are the ones turning against the refugees they themselves have created. Europe has created the West African countries that send immigrants today. There is no moral ground for not taking in people fleeing from these countries, not on a humanitarian level, and not on a historical level. Western countries need to step up to the plate, quit whining, and take a serious look at how complicit they are.

    Europe profited from colonialism that in the long run created migration movements. Former settler colonies like the U.S., Canada, Australia, and NZ stole land, murdered indigenous people, and brought people in. So no citizen in Europe and the former settler colonies gets to cry about immigrants and ethnic diversity. It's laughable and pathetic.
    I agree with most of what you're saying. The first part of your argument is correct, but I do think a distinction should be made between Syrian refugees and economic migrants from West Africa even if as you say those economic migrants were caused by European colonization in the past. Your other argument is pretty much why I believe multiculturalism is fine in the former European colonies of US, Canada, Australia and NZ because Europeans conquered the natives in those nations. However, I guess my logic is that two wrongs don't make a right. I know that keeping former European colonies European is ridiculous since they were all stolen from natives, but that doesn't mean we can allow Europe to stop being ethnically European even if it's only being done via mass immigration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    "Ethnics in America"? Who are they? Sorry if it's already mentioned somewhere - there is too much racist drivel disguised as "too many immigrants" in this thread to read carefully.
    Pretty much everyone that washed up here from the turn of the last century onwards. Including Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans…


    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I only tell people I am an immigrant, not where I am from. It really bothers them because they suspect I am Latina because of my first name and looks. I have had it happen too many times that people were visible relieved when they heard I am German to do them the favor. Anti-immigration is always racist. I could walk into a Trump rally and say I am undocumented, but I am also German. They would bear hug me and tell me Mr. Trump will fix the immigration system so I can be legal because they love adding white people.
    Most aren't racist. They maintain a civic superstition that there's something magical about the 'rule of law' which makes people upright American citizens, regardless of origin. It's all hopelessly naive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    The only way to handle it is to stop messing with global south politics, stop exploiting people, and acting as if this is happening in a vacuum. The same governments that profit off conflicts such as the one in Syria in a myriad of ways are the ones turning against the refugees they themselves have created. Europe has created the West African countries that send immigrants today. There is no moral ground for not taking in people fleeing from these countries, not on a humanitarian level, and not on a historical level. Western countries need to step up to the plate, quit whining, and take a serious look at how complicit they are.

    Europe profited from colonialism that in the long run created migration movements.
    You mean a handful of well-to-do oligarchs profited from colonialism, while undercutting the development of their own nations in the process by outsourcing industries overseas for cheaper labor.

    Whereas nowadays the cheap labor is merely imported directly to the same ends.

    The average European was hardly complicit in any of this, but their descendants must somehow be punished for it nonetheless.

    Former settler colonies like the U.S., Canada, Australia, and NZ stole land, murdered indigenous people, and brought people in. So no citizen in Europe and the former settler colonies gets to cry about immigrants and ethnic diversity. It's laughable and pathetic.
    So really this is about revenge for you.

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    Are you guys losing your shit over the little mermaid live action remake?

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    WRT German migrants: Germany has never successfully invaded anyone.
    Last edited by xerx; 07-12-2019 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Germany has never successfully invaded anyone.
    When you take into account 20th and 21th century only, you're right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    When you take into account 20th and 21th century only, you're right.
    It was a joke.

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    I find it baffling that some white Americans (and most of the world outside America) think white Americans are the only “real” Americans. Nobody’s ancestors were “from here” more than a few hundreds years ago, minus Native Americans whose communities have to bear the generational burden of having been slaughtered, displaced, and still routinely under-resourced. Your nationality is how you were socialized or what culture(s) you exist in, not just how you look and how that abstractly ties into some historical “identity” that you’re disrespecting while also pretending to be American. And if that were true, why wouldn’t a second generation Swedish person with no accent be held to that standard?

    It’s both racism and stupidity/disrespect, like ppl not having a clue how others feel about themselves and deciding they “should” feel within a box defined by mental concepts that have nothing to do with that person’s experience of reality.

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    I don't entirely understand what the fear of globalization is to begin with, and maybe part of that is not having any sort of nostalgia for a past ideal. Historically, countries and their borders were determined by warfare, conquest, and violence; power-struggles that were not really begun for the well-being of the peasant. The only anti-globalization sentiment I've had has something to do with how free trade has destroyed some local ecosystems, but it's created as many or more opportunities also. I can see how some people who prefer to live in a relatively independent, self-sustaining community, don't find their values met as much by the current status quo. And there's something to mourn about how the skills that people have developed over hundreds of years, say in a fishing village in Senegal, suddenly aren't adaptable to meeting the fast-paced changes of today's global economy.

    I do understand not knee-jerk deriding someone who doesn't hold the liberal opinion. *However* I find the behavior of economic refugees understandable and don’t think it’s generally these people making life for the average person in a western country worse. It’s such an easy sentiment for politicians to exploit. Why focus on immigration? Why not generate / redistribute wealth in a much more effective channel, so your nation can accept as many refugees / immigrants as it likes? IMO, There’s not a one-size-fits-all need for all modern nations to adapt the same mold. But when making those complex decisions about borders, one should have some empathy.

    PS It's prob easier for a poor white person to project themselves as a really, really ridiculously wealthy white person than as an "immigrant" lol. I wonder how much of the general population believes they live in a society where they could *be* that rich person unless the radical leftists got in the way.
    Last edited by lemontrees; 07-12-2019 at 08:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Most aren't racist. They maintain a civic superstition that there's something magical about the 'rule of law' which makes people upright American citizens, regardless of origin. It's all hopelessly naive.
    No, that's not true. Being a white immigrant is a VERY different experience than being an immigrant of color. I get away with shit, they don't. I also don't get told not to speak in my language or go back where I came from and all the rest of it. It's absolutely about race and ethnicity.


    You mean a handful of well-to-do oligarchs profited from colonialism, while undercutting the development of their own nations in the process by outsourcing industries overseas for cheaper labor.

    Whereas nowadays the cheap labor is merely imported directly to the same ends.

    The average European was hardly complicit in any of this, but their descendants must somehow be punished for it nonetheless.
    We are all complicit in this. We reap the benefits of historical oppression and we continue to exploit by the way we consume, by supporting wars, refusing, refugees, etc. You really think that the conflicts in Syria and Yemen do not tie back to U.S. capitalism and its profits? The West exploits with abandon, you just don't give a shit about it because you don't care about social justice.

    Europeans are not "punished" for anything. Europeans (and others) have a responsibility to not help fuck up regions, exploiting them, and then shutting their doors for the sake of some mythical notion of "culture."

    So really this is about revenge for you.
    No, it's about justice and accountability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    I fail to see how there is racism in this thread. It is just a debate of very different ideas on immigration. Trying to win the debate by attempting to take the moral high ground of claiming racism where there is none is not the way to do it.

    Anyways, me and @xerxe have very similar ideas on how immigration should be handled in Canada, US, Australia and NZ via cultural assimilation from all ethnicities and controlled immigration. Where we differ almost completely is on how immigration should be handled in Europe.
    Please do not use my country as a dumping ground for social experiments of this nature, send them to Australia instead. Nomads and sand people should be well-suited to a life in the desert

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spermatozoa View Post
    Please do not use my country as a dumping ground for social experiments of this nature, send them to Australia instead. Nomads and sand people should be well-suited to a life in the desert
    Fair enough. New Zealand is already multi-ethnic at 74%, but that is largely due to to the high native Maori population. Moreso than Australia that is 86% European. My mindset was keeping Europe to ethnostates and former European colonies can become multi-ethnic. However, the boat has sailed for that so if certain countries choose to become multi-ethnic and others choose to become ethnostates then so be it.

    Personally, I don't really mind if my country of Canada becomes multi-ethnic, but I would like it to remain monocultural at the very least. Which can only be achieved with slow controlled immigration or near zero immigration at some point in the future. Due to second generation immigrants having a high rate of integration/assimilation and first generation immigrants having a low rate of integration/assimilation IMO.
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