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Thread: I'm so tired of people mistyping LIEs...

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    @Aylen


    be strong

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    Not willing, sorry. Post a video of yourself so we can see what a real whatever-you-are looks like.

    [/video] [/spoiler]
    Yeah, I'm not the one claiming I'm a real whatever, and all these other people aren't.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    @Aylen
    be strong

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    LIE's are rare, but not that rare. If you have a normal social life, you're going to meet more than 2 LIE's pretty quickly - unless you're looking only for carbon copies of yourself.

    If you work in a larger corporate environment, you will very quickly run into them. Go to any bank and look at the people on top - same. Go to colleges like economy, law or something similar, even engineering (political sciences, international relationships,...) - no way there's no LIE's there.

    My bf's best friend is LIE and I've met another 3 LIE's just by hanging out with them - they often stick together.
    A distant cousin's husband might be a LIE-Te (he's married to an SEI-Fe btw). I think I saw a LIE-Ni once in an aeroplane, and I saw another LIE-Ni once in a night hangout years ago. I don't go out that much, but I've seen tons of people of other types, but only these (possible) LIE's. Either they are hiding, my country has purged them somehow, or they are rare indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah at worst I would expect LIE to 1) be far more open to the possibility of being something else and 2) have damn good rationalizations. Like really good ones, not a bunch of Se games and ethical debates

    its like people don't realize how sides take shape and how people defend their LIEdom says far more about them than whatever the dumbass words on the page purport themselves to be

    which is why the test results thing is particularly lol, spoken like true gammas
    This whole witch hunt is so fucking ridiculous that it's hurting my brain.

    "A true LIE won't be so invested in defending his type!" - But then how else is he going to justify the defense of his type?

    If a witch stays silent in her accusation of being a witch, it's because she's guilty of being a witch. If she admits in being a witch, then of course, that only proves that she's a witch. She's going to be a witch either way

    Stop. With. The. Fucking. Postmodern. Mind. Games.
    Last edited by Singu; 11-15-2017 at 08:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    Yeah, I'm not the one claiming I'm a real whatever, and all these other people aren't.
    I haven't put myself as an example. I already said I shouldn't be an example. Look at pezzonovante's posts. There even was a pic of him somewhere (probably it isn't still online though).

    If you just scroll through pezzonovante's posts and make yourself an idea of the type, you won't be fooled any longer by those claiming to be LIE's, that aren't in reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    I haven't put myself as an example. I already said I shouldn't be an example. Look at pezzonovante's posts. There even was a pic of him somewhere (probably it isn't still online though).

    If you just scroll through pezzonovante's posts and make yourself an idea of the type, you won't be fooled any longer by those claiming to be LIE's, that aren't in reality.
    How did you gain access to this person's posts? He has one post in his posting history. Is this an alternate account?
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    I haven't put myself as an example. I already said I shouldn't be an example.
    You understand that you differ significantly from LIE, but the difference is such that can't be explained in borders of this type. Your type is other. You've given above the example of the one who you perceive is like you. And that dude is IEI. F type like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    You understand that you differ significantly from LIE, but the difference is such that can't be explained in borders of this type. Your type is other. You've given above the example of the one who you perceive is like you. And that dude is IEI. F type like you.
    The dude is not IEI. This just demonstrates your poor typing abilities once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    How did you gain access to this person's posts? He has one post in his posting history. Is this an alternate account?

    Oops. They were there the last time I looked (before making this thread). He had about 230 posts. They must have been deleted. Who might have done that, I wonder... (and why...)?

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    At this point, this "real LIE" guy is a legend. I'm super curious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    When stuff is presented in a Te way, it's like I can read the original source, or see it with my own eyes, and it is there for me to do with as I please. Ti is like I'm expected to take a step along with the person presenting the information - there's an inference or something - and I find myself skeptical and suspicious of that step being taken. It isn't that I'm stupid or illogical and can't follow it. It's more that I don't trust people to remain objective when they take that step. I'm afraid they're intentionally leading the information somewhere, or maybe have an unintentional bias. I find myself stopping each time there is a step taken and thinking about it rather than reading straight through and just taking the information in. Whereas once I find a source trustworthy, I pretty much trust that source. Not blindly - my trust can be lost too. I don't know why but it's hard to explain this stuff in words.

    That's my view as a Ti PoLR person.

    There seems to be some relationship or trend between efficiency and having Te in the ego block, but Te isn't defined by efficiency. Maybe looking at data in that way leads to it?
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss;bt2504
    IMO Te as mere actions to be observed makes no sense whatsoever - I couldn't get into this supposed mindset, nor understand it, doing either the old or new set of exercises.

    Fe is involved, and so it's concerned with indirectly observable actions (e-motion, wasn't it?) as it is experienced here and now, focusing on what they imply about the object's internal dynamics. Te is abstract, as in it abstracts over explicit actions to find out about a person's functionality. So Je is less of an observed here-and-now action and more of a how does it work.

    Just like you described Se as not focusing on a specific characteristic in separation of everything else about an object, but rather gaining information about an object through these, Fe and Te do not gain info *about* actions. They gain information about an object through it's actions. When Fe gains information, it is not just about immediate experience, which most people get (neural response thing), but about their inner workings, motivations, emotionality. When Te gains information, it is not about an object's actions here-and-now, but an abstract understanding of how it operates - input, output, functions, abilities, competence. As in, they both gain information about the object's dynamics.

    You do not need Si/Ni for that. Where dynamic field comes in is in how those dynamic objects interact and what pattern emerges from it. It might be weak emergence or strong emergence, but it's about interactions of objects whose dynamics are modeled by Fe/Te.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    How did you gain access to this person's posts? He has one post in his posting history. Is this an alternate account?
    I wondered if it was an alternate account too so I did a quick search and found an archive that led back to a thread. I think when people stop posting it clears their profile of them after awhile, even previous likes or quotes.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ll=1#post92264

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I wondered if it was an alternate account too so I did a quick search and found an archive that led back to a thread. I think when people stop posting it clears their profile of them after awhile, even previous likes or quotes.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ll=1#post92264

    Don't be naive. It was all there just a few days ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Te is about what works in reality, and in order to affect reality or to properly evaluate if something is working, it's necessary to understand reality in its own terms - not the way it's "supposed" to be, or how we wish it would be, or how it can make people happy or unhappy, flattered or offended.

    Te is about facts, in the sense that a continuous observation of ever-changing facts is the way to observe reality. Reality is dynamic. If I aim at doing something based on, say, the price of bananas, the only way to check if I'm successful is to continually get information on the price of bananas. I may have a mathematical model as to how the price of bananas might develop, or even a grand idea as to what the prices of bananas should be in a properly run world. That does not change the fact that, at the end of the day, I still have to check what the price of bananas is doing to see if I'm being effective.

    And in that case, all I care about is having as accurate information on the price of bananas as possible. I don't care about people packaging it with thoughts like, "oh the prices are a bit low, he'll be upset, I'll tell him they are a bit higher to make him happier". That is precisely the way to annoy me. It just shows me that I can't trust such people to give me accurate information, so I mark them down as unreliable sources.

    The example I'm using is trivial, but hopefully it gives you an idea.
    .
    Last edited by ashlesha; 11-15-2017 at 10:45 PM.

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    I thought I saw pezzovantes posts the first time I clicked when I initially opened the thread and made a mental note to go back later when I had more time. When I clicked again and only saw the one post I assumed I misremembered..

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    Don't be naive. It was all there just a few days ago.
    I am a mod so not being naive. You just have to search. I am sure if he was notified of mentions, through email, he might want to delete his pictures. People have real lives and often forget that they may have posted something here that may come back to haunt them later. I think it is a good thing to keep in mind, regardless. For all you know he has retyped or isn't even interested in this stuff anymore. Unless he posts we will not know what became of him. Hopefully he is living the dream, whatever it may be.

    The only other way his posts would have been deleted is if he is friends with a mod and they helped him out but if that is the case it is their business.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    As for the now famous "One true LIE" Google site search his name (site:the16types.info pezzonovante) will bring up threads he's posted in, like this one: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...j-and-LSE-ESTj which imo makes him sound like an introverted intuitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I am a mod so not being naive. You just have to search. I am sure if he was notified of mentions, through email, he might want to delete his pictures. People have real lives and often forget that they may have posted something here that may come back to haunt them later. I think it is a good thing to keep in mind, regardless. For all you know he has retyped or isn't even interested in this stuff anymore. Unless he posts we will not know what became of him. Hopefully he is living the dream, whatever it may be.

    The only other way his posts would have been deleted is if he is friends with a mod and they helped him out but if that is the case it is their business.
    I'm not talking about his pictures, I'm talking about his posts. They were there a few days ago, now they're gone. I highly doubt pezzonovante had a hand in that. I am not accusing you, but obviously someone with mod powers deleted them.

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    what do you think of expat, lavos? I tend to think of him as the high water mark of LIE posting here

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    @lavos

    I'm not sure if my question was misinterpreted, but I am asking you if you are an alternate account. The mods may have deleted it, but that is a little coincidental to the timing of this thread. And, unless you were a poster here before, I doubt some random would be familiar with an account with no history unless they posted around for awhile. So are you? No shame in it.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what do you think of expat, lavos? I tend to think of him as the high water mark of LIE posting here
    I think that Se valuing in him might be lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    @lavos

    I'm not sure if my question was misinterpreted, but I am asking you if you are an alternate account.
    No. Also, I have no interest in this other than truth to be seeked, and things to be as they should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    No. Also, I have no interest in this other than truth to be seeked, and things to be as they should.
    Okay, well in that case let's make this a little more constructive. Your goal is presumably for people to stop mistyping LIE's, correct? So what is your criteria for typing someone an LIE? You know, besides pezzo.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    I think that Se valuing in him might be lacking.
    I'm not saying you're saying he can't be LIE, but lets pretend, hypothetically, he's not--what would you type him as? as a best guess

    as to pezzonovante, can you say in generalities, what it is about his posting that says LIE to you? (nothing really jumps off the page to me, but I could be missing something... I tend to see more Se in Expat's delivery, if you step away from what they're talking about but focus on how they're talking about it)

    I feel like its a fine line between talking about Se "accoutrements" and actually exhibiting Se, but if the former were enough it would make every Ni fetishist a Ni base type

    I think, in a weird way, the idea that Se "values" status implies a judgement as to what status must be, when that in of itself is variable, especially across time. What was status in one timeframe is no longer--they invert themselves even (fatness used to be considered beautiful in cultures where nutrition was hard to come by), now we have cars, guns, etc. Its all a proxy. Furthermore it seems to me the stronger intuition of time is the more you get away from stereotypes of Se HA... To me it seems that Se HA in the context of Te is the ability "to really do things"--to see the fruits of one's labor, and it may have very little to do with physical objects. It may be the "actual manifestation" of results in terms of either: things people or events. Trophies to me seem like only one, relatively obtuse, form of satisfying Se HA. While this is extremely vague it still seems to me that Se is more about "power (or conflict) sensing" hence there is a will to power aspect that can find satisfaction in: promulgation of philosophical/literary/religious ideas, matchmaking, policymaking/legal precedent, hierarchical status, control in a business or social setting, money, love. Some of these implicate Ne, but that seems perfectly appropriate to me. To see a book published, it may end up with a far broader Ne influence than the physical object, but they would nonetheless want to "live to see" the evidence that "the plan" is on track, in time (this may not even be a published book, it may be an agreement with someone trusted, or a manuscript for someone to find, etc)... one of the most elegant descriptions I saw of LIE was "see what needs to be done, does it, for any given goal" Obviously all other things being equal, they would drive towards their conclusion, but Ni allows for inertia, they are not so linear and concrete as LSE, to whom if they cannot sense it it does not yet exist

    Fe is a direct form of objective judgement, Te is the indirect. Ni is in the indirect form of Si, and Se is the direct form of Ne. So you have indirect objective judgements being made with indirect perceptions guiding them based on the direct form of power layouts and direct form of subjective judgement. In other words the purpose acts with an indirect but objective purpose informed by indirect subjective perceptions, with the real power situation being the basis for self esteem (aka actual manifestation of "fruits"), and guided by subjective value judgements. To me almost anyone could fit into that description, but at the same time almost no one does, because they inevitably tend to care about other things than their own pet projects to the exclusion of all else. strict business logic on the case informed by Ni does seem rare, because of how harsh and demanding it is. if its not for comfort and its strictly rooted in personal values and its not interested in ideas except in their application, why would they be anywhere except exactly where they feel they have something to accomplish..?

    it seems to me "Se measure of progress" is distinct in precisely the way that commonly gets confused. Which is that a bmw doesn't make you rich. People chase the trophy as an "indicator" of wealth, but it is backward. LIE, gamma NT in general, sees results as a boost to self esteem because it evidences real achievement, but that doesn't mean you can go out and substitute the trophy for the achievement and work backward. that is where I feel like the primary misunderstanding occurs, and when people chase those trophies, people confuse that as LIE behavior. Its actually people emulating LIE behavior but backwards, because society values LIE style achievement but people tangle it up. it is the "American Dream" and its sort of been flipped on its head

    I'm not saying you don't understand any of this, I just sort of got off on a tangent, because I think Se HA in the context of TeNi is loaded with projections from other types and values. and its precisely what's wrong with this place's image of LIE, and the people who imitate it, are trapped in exactly the kind of viscious circle I described above, which is a copy of a copy of the American Dream
    Last edited by Bertrand; 11-15-2017 at 11:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    Okay, well in that case let's make this a little more constructive. Your goal is presumably for people to stop mistyping LIE's, correct? So what is your criteria for typing someone an LIE? You know, besides pezzo.
    It's simple: that they conform to the standart appropiate configuration in model A. This should show in their posts (like IMO, it did with pezzonovante).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I'm not saying you're saying he can't be LIE, but lets pretend, hypothetically, he's not--what would you type him as? as a best guess
    Not sure. Some people used to think he was LSE back then. I personally don't have an opinion.

    as to pezzonovante, can you say in generalities, what it is about his posting that says LIE to you? (nothing really jumps off the page to me, but I could be missing something... I tend to see more Se in Expat's delivery, if you step away from what they're talking about but focus on how they're talking about it)

    I feel like its a fine line between talking about Se "accoutrements" and actually exhibiting Se, but if the former were enough it would make every Ni fetishist a Ni base type

    I think, in a weird way, that Se "values" status implies a judgement as to what status must be, when that in of itself is variable, especially across time. What was status in one timeframe is no longer--they invert themselves even (fatness used to be considered beautiful in cultures where nutrition was hard to come by), now we have cars, guns, etc. Its all a proxy. Furthermore it seems to me the stronger intuition of time is the more you get away from stereotypes of Se HA...
    No point discussing about pezzonovante's posting history, since it's gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Playing With Fire View Post
    I didn't get "triggered". I for once prefer to address people and what they say that bothers me, whether it directly concerns me or not, directly and out in the open. That's a Beta thing, why would I do it behind "closed doors" if it isn't personal?
    My post had nothing to do with you, so you should have ignored it. I have no interest in discussing this topic further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    It's simple: that they conform to the standart appropiate configuration in model A. This should show in their posts (like IMO, it did with pezzonovante).
    Sure, but the people that type LIE are doing that to their own estimation, so why take your interpretation over theirs?
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post

    No point discussing about pezzonovante's posting history, since it's gone.
    I just want to know what it was about it that made you think it was quintessential LIE, I don't need to know what exactly was said, just their flavor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I just want to know what it was about it that made you think it was quintessential LIE, I don't need to know what exactly was said, just their flavor
    Te with Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    Sure, but the people that type LIE are doing that to their own estimation, so why take your interpretation over theirs?
    I'm not saying you should take my interpretation. What I can say is that all save one of pezzonovante's posts mysteriosly dissapeared when I mentioned them. Why would you say this may have happened?

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    honestly you sound like a weird conspiracy theorist because who gives a fuck what happened to his posts, and you're using it to cop out on the means that are available to you, almost like you can't make use of them to make a decent point

    a discussion of LIE doesn't require this random guys posts, and saying "Te Ni" in response to what you thought made him LIE is just stupid. if it were that simple you never would have made this thread, because people would understand what Te Ni means and they obviously don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lump View Post
    .
    What expat said here in your quote: "That does not change the fact that, at the end of the day, I still have to check what the price of bananas is doing to see if I'm being effective."

    That's what Sol is doing whenever he asks for a type video. He doesn't want someone's interpretation of their personality, he wants to see the actual person for himself to verify their type. And like it or not, it's what Adam does when he depends on his personal experience and observations to decide what a type is like.

    Expat also angered some Fe types with his interpretations that did not appear to listen to their viewpoints at all on what Fe was, because his experience of these types in his reality differed from the interpretations he was hearing.

    Te tries to look at non-interpreted, empirical data, but Te types can then easily dismiss the subjective experience or understanding of other people. It's where this quote of Golihov's comes from:
    If you try to explain something to him, sooner or later he will say "I got it" and interrupt you since he doesn't aim to attain an understanding. They are interested in facts of objective reality - these are not to be understood, but rather memorized, learned, evaluated, and implemented.
    So, Bertrand's criticism of Adam memorizing stereotypes and applying them is a criticism of the bad side of Te lead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    So, Bertrand's criticism of Adam memorizing stereotypes and applying them is a criticism of the bad side of Te lead.
    just, no

    Te lead doesn't aim to attain an understanding for its own sake, but inasmuch as it facilitates their objectives you can bet they gain a very rigorous understanding of things. stereotypes are something completely different than Te/Ti. I get it that Te looks like a stereotype from the perspective of Ti. The point is Adam acts out that understanding. Just because you two share that understanding of Te, doesn't make his charade the real deal. It only looks that way from your perspective on Te. Te actually develops understanding that exceeds the Ti of its time. A "superficial" conceptual understanding that transcends time but works, is something more than a stereotype by definition (its the definition of better, or you could say elegant). they develop heuristics, the point of Adams behavior is it is actively misleading not more helpful than not. its only "helpful" to a certain segment of the community that understands things in a similarly flawed and motivated way

    your post is literally thrusting a stereotype on people in the name of such a thing being ok because that's what Te is. its stereotype ception

    its a Ti crystallization of a wrong intuition

    stereotyping is literally anything any type can do and is definitely not the unifying feature of Te dom through which we can bundle people. at worst Te dom would be characterized by insightful "stereotypes" because of its 4d nature. its literally its gift to humanity. stereotypes that are fundamentally mistaken but deemed sufficient are characteristic of low d unconscious Te. i would go so far as to say the worst at this is Te polr types followed by Te ignoring. its rigid thinking
    Last edited by Bertrand; 11-16-2017 at 12:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    honestly you sound like a weird conspiracy theorist because who gives a fuck what happened to his posts, and you're using it to cop out on the means that are available to you, almost like you can't make use of them to make a decent point
    I'm just a person who uses his brain. You see, I just don't have any interest in this discussion after what happened to those posts. Te with Ni is just that. A LIE is not much different from an ILI, in the same sense that an SLE is not much different from an LSI. But people seem to forget that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    I'm just a person who uses his brain. You see, I just don't have any interest in this discussion after what happened to those posts. Te with Ni is just that. A LIE is not much different from an ILI, in the same sense that an SLE is not much different from an LSI. But people seem to forget that.
    so what goals are you meeting by posting this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    just, no

    Te lead doesn't aim to attain an understanding for its own sake, but inasmuch as it facilitates their objectives you can bet they gain a very rigorous understanding of things. stereotypes are something completely different than Te/Ti. I get it that Te looks like a stereotype from the perspective of Ti. The point is Adam acts out that understanding. Just because you two share that understanding of Te, doesn't make his charade the real deal. It only looks that way from your perspective on Te. Te actually develops understanding that exceeds the Ti of its time. A superficial conceptual understanding that transcends time but works, is something more than a stereotype by definition. they develop heuristics, the point of Adams behavior is it is actively misleading not more helpful than not. its only "helpful" to a certain segment of the community that understands things in a similarly flawed and motivated way

    your post is literally thrusting a stereotype on people in the name of such a thing being ok because that's what Te is. its stereotype ception

    its a Ti crystallization of a wrong intuition
    Meh. I'm not trying to make Adam into an example of a typical Te lead. I don't think he's typical, but he's still using Te and he's ignoring Ti. Expat ignored Fe more than Ti (not in terms of ignoring function just in terms of how much emphasis he put on it,) he was much more willing to look at Ti reasoning and get into all the theoretical aspects of socionics and much less willing to try to be friendly or use much Fe role. He was far more clearly a logical type. Adam isn't.

    So no, it's not thrusting a stereotype on people, it's giving a broader range of expressions of a given type. There's more to Te than the narrow window you're allowing it in other words.

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    4d Te is being a dumbass, you heard it here first folks

    just giving it "broad expression"

    its always been my case that people conferred the "Te dom" label on Adam as a charity and that's precisely the problem, because it corrupts everything as a manifest degradation of the concept and by proxy all Te valuers. my point has been people do this strictly in order to be polite and cover territory. my point is inasmuch as no one points out how stupid it is socionics is ultimately undermined because it perverts the image of an entire quadra or two and drives people away

    yes you can skew things to include Adam. no, its not worth it--its counterproductive in time. that makes it wrong

    to characterize this as being the essence of Te dominance is to unravel the very logical fabric of the Jungian intuition underlying socionics, but people can't see it, because all they can see is his stupid Fe begging

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    so what goals are you meeting by posting this
    Hopefully, for people to re-evaluate their understanding of the LIE type, use their common sense, and not merely accept what some other people might portray about the LIE type, intentionally or not.

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