Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

[The Reality Denialist]

Ok but I don’t think ILEs usually like screaming and vulgarities is my point really

yes and this just boils down to less bipolar process type manifestation. Strategy difference is obviously even moisture vs dryness and flood.

[sbbds]

yes and this just boils down to less bipolar process type manifestation. Strategy difference is obviously even moisture vs dryness and flood.

Ok, well at least my neurons are connected enough to have poles because idk what you’re talking about anymore

[The Reality Denialist]

Ok, well at least my neurons are connected enough to have poles because idk what you’re talking about anymore

ummm... seems to be about the issue around your suggestive autism vs my suggestive slouching.

[The Reality Denialist]

Suggestive autism = suggestive Ni and suggestive slouching = suggestive Si ?

yup.

[The Reality Denialist]

I'm really considering Librem phone or Jolla... I think Firefox should integrate Tor in their browser like Brave did.

[xerx]

I disagree. Ppl are easy to read, falseness especially and one doesn't need logical rules for guidance in this sense, one just intuitively feels the disconnect. Admittedly this is harder to do in text form interaction, but irl face to face these things are obvious to me as if it were instinct.

IEIs seem to know what I'm talking about when i say "Ppl are easy to read"

But IEIs have strong Fi (and Fe).

It's not easy for an ILE or SLE to evaluate someone's real, inner character. They may think they do until their intuition turns out to have been wrong. They may not even have a fully-formed idea of what constitutes 'good character' until later in life than most people.


When it comes to logic-related things, like haggling with a used-car salesman or evaluating someone's fraudulent insurance claim, it's really easy for them to recognize bullshit.

[Lord Panda]

But IEIs have strong Fi (and Fe).

It's not easy for an ILE or SLE to evaluate someone's real, inner character. They may think they do until their intuition turns out to have been wrong. They may not even have a fully-formed idea of what constitutes 'good character' until later in life than most people.


When it comes to logic-related things, like haggling with a used-car salesman or evaluating someone's fraudulent insurance claim, it's really easy for them to recognize bullshit.

Just to clarify, I think there's a big difference between knowing a person's intentions, predispositions, reasons for behaving a certain way, etc. and being able to place that in a larger framework of ethical judgments. Sure, I may know that someone is a certain type of person. But that doesn't mean I know how I should predispose myself towards them or how I should treat them. I often have found myself getting help from others on how to 'deal with' people. I keep getting better at knowing how to do it. I wonder what it's like for an Fi PoLR type.

[pississippi]

I disagree. Ppl are easy to read, falseness especially and one doesn't need logical rules for guidance in this sense, one just intuitively feels the disconnect. Admittedly this is harder to do in text form interaction, but irl face to face these things are obvious to me as if it were instinct.

IEIs seem to know what I'm talking about when i say "Ppl are easy to read"

wait so why dont u think ur IEI? ime T types are bad at reading people unless they have a lot of experience.

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

1) Overestimation of his own abilities in Fx department, specifically Fe
2) Readings, especially more connected with observation of external manifestations (so mostly Fe), can be learned even by - the most passive in that department - XLIs (and specifically Ni-potent ILIs; it's the usage that is poor, and the liking of overt Fe that is not there). Almost all humans have innate emotions-perceiving mechanisms that can distinguish a sad face from a disgusted face, and you can train this either consciously or unconsciously (good observational skills required). More than one XLI or alpha NT has written a thesis on human emotions, as much as it seems 'lol EXE' - it's how you take this topic that makes a difference; intuitives should maybe learn that easier, but I think intelligence plays a huge role

lmao, the fucking irony of this.

[SGF]

wait so why dont u think ur IEI? ime T types are bad at reading people unless they have a lot of experience.

Because through interaction, VI (video), posts and so on.. several ppl independently typed me ILE. I understand socionics theory, but don't have the experience or the ability to objectively validate or refute the typing.

EDIT: and some kind of NT is basically correct imo.. maybe

[Ave]

lmao, the fucking irony of this.

STFU

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

STFU

nope, what she said was just not correct.

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

for what it's worth, the 'humanistic' answer would have been to not derogatory strip someone of 'feeling' ability per soxlionics type.

[The Reality Denialist]

I think I don't really care what sort of relation people have with me. It never pops in my head as per usual but once it clearly exists it is like a prison and I get really tired of it and I'm like a dog having a walk with owner.
I'd rather leave it as non-existent as I have done countless times.

If that falls under Fi being part of human categorical relations.

[Ave]

for what it's worth, the 'humanistic' answer would have been to not derogatory strip someone of 'feeling' ability per soxlionics type.

I don't think it was meant to be deragatory. You seem to have some kind of agenda against Duschia or something. Not that they can't defend themselves, but I don't get why you would think such a remark has anything personal or derogatory. It seems it was taken from wikisocion?

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

I don't think it was meant to be deragatory. You seem to have some kind of agenda against Duschia or something. Not that they can't defend themselves, but I don't get why you would think such a remark has anything personal or derogatory. It seems it was taken from wikisocion?

I don't like her, because she has this passive aggressive approach running around this forum. Get that i don't like people using soxlionics in this way. You can agree or disagree with this. Aso you can hardly construe me having an agenda against her by what?

the last part, like I said, it's just too ironic.

[Ave]

I do agree that saying that someone has less of a feeling ability because of socionics type is pretty un-founded, as socionics itself is pretty unfounded, so we can't base ourselves on it to such an extent as to doubt our own or others' ability in things like feeling. It is unhealthy, yes, but I don't think it was personal.

[Ave]

I don't like her, because she has this passive aggressive approach running around this forum. Get that i don't like people using soxlionics in this way. You can agree or disagree with this. Aso you can hardly construe me having an agenda against her by what?

the last part, like I said, it's just too ironic.

You give your own reasons as to why you don't like her. Then ask why I think you have an agenda.

No, I agree that it's a misuse of socionics, which you are doing too, by saying it's ironic. But I guess that's okay, because you don't like her?

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

I do agree that saying that someone has less of a feeling ability because of socionics type is pretty un-founded, as socionics itself is pretty unfounded, so we can't base ourselves on it to such an extent as to doubt our own or others' ability in things like feeling. It is unhealthy, yes, but I don't think it was personal.

Anyone who has read any post on feeliing in jungian terms, understand wthat there is a difference between feeling (lets say in colloquial terms) and the feeling function (a judging function btw). The last thing is very nice of you and I'll leave it at that, but like I explained it was imo not correct and I wanted to intervene before people get ideas.

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

You give your own reasons as to why you don't like her. Then ask why I think you have an agenda.

No, I agree that it's a misuse of socionics, which you are doing too, by saying it's ironic. But I guess that's okay, because you don't like her?

No because, people rarely (if not for other reasons) overconstrue their abilities in weak functions irl, because well they are rather obvious.
Intentions matter. Well it's not ok for you I gather that, but it's not ok for me to basically say that 'Fi-Polr's' or whatever can't read feelings or
like yeah we humans have tha feelings in tha brain... well I guess them little munchies have some somewhere too. O.O
Just spin the attitude a little bit further...

Thinking someone started this thread to explain his very own attitude, to not get misunderstood.

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

Actually, to add: the first comprehensive work on human emotions and such was by Darwin (yes, Charles) and he is usually typed XLI. Either way Te-ego.

Darwin imo was ILE. Ne-ego. Comprehensive work on hooman emotions. wtf

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

??? I'm usually rather open, and when 'passive-aggressive', then it's rather obvious and not hiding. I can be sarcastic or ironic. I don't know you and we have never talked, unless you are someone's else puppet account and/or trolling. I only once saw you typing thread, where many people noted that you seem to be talking to yourself over multiple years (?).

I'm also not her, but him. You don't even know me enough to know my gender/sex.

I like talking to myself, to flesh out my points/thoughts, yes. ok I get it no more from me.

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

I think shotgun overestimates on how well he can predict and 'read' people. He has showed this multiple times on this very forum, but I won't run into examples. This is what I've meant by an overestimation.

The second point specifically says that 'reading emotions' is not type-exclusive. Fe and Fi PoLRs can do that, it's just from a different take. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

SEE. Never ever try to passive aggressively get a point at me again. I said it I'm out. I had it with you.

[SGF]

Thank you, but I'm likely Fe PoLR if anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You may just dislike a more Te-approach.

looks like I'm not the only one who considers you his/her conflictor type.

[xerx]

I do agree that saying that someone has less of a feeling ability because of socionics type is pretty un-founded, as socionics itself is pretty unfounded, so we can't base ourselves on it to such an extent as to doubt our own or others' ability in things like feeling. It is unhealthy, yes, but I don't think it was personal.

Yes, of course. Fi-PoLR types have feelings in the same way that Si-PoLR types have bodies. What I believe characterizes Fi-PoLRs is their poor ability to recognize these feelings. When an event happens, they may only realize its emotional significance after several weeks, even several years.

Although people do develop a stronger sense of self-awareness as they grow older, as with all things.

[The Reality Denialist]

Darwin imo was ILE. Ne-ego. Comprehensive work on hooman emotions. wtf

Darwin's position was probably about trying to decipher something weird like what Augusta tried to work out with Socionics. Some sort of shake up that leaves positive mark in you occasionally is like a good trip - nothing to theorize about and ruin the experience.

[Itsme]

@Duschia is a just a messed up person with a lot of psychological issues and narcissistic traits. This is NTR imho most likely absorbed values and forms of interactions from an dysfunctional environment and never managed to work them out.

I have to agree with Silke an have to double down on my ILI typing for shotgun, your posts on site 16 reek of fi valuing and hidden agenda, also you tend to do far better with fi matters than me, even observable here on the forum, you are clearly not fi polr but 2d fi at least imo.
Maybe an creative sub-type somewhats muddies your type, your ne and se are strenghed due to it and that's why you mistake yourself as Ne lead, i had the same with ILI and being harmonizer.
Just my two cents, as others have pointed out, duschia (authentically) kissing your ass and looking for your approval points to an ILI - LSE supervision relationship too.

[Lord Panda]

@Duschia is a just a messed up person with a lot of psychological issues and narcissistic traits. This is NTR imho most likely absorbed values and forms of interactions from an dysfunctional environment and never managed to work them out.

Clearly you must have a degree in psychology and astute observation skills of insane caliber to diagnose someone's issues from their forum interactions. And may I also point out the irony in accusing someone of being a narcissist - oh wait sorry - having narcissistic traits while simultaneously derailing the thread and pinging them for attention?

Battle type each other all you want. Idrc. But armchair diagnosis is where I draw the line.

[Itsme]

Clearly you must have a degree in psychology and astute observation skills of insane caliber to diagnose someone's issues from their forum interactions. And may I also point out the irony in accusing someone of being a narcissist - oh wait sorry - having narcissistic tendencies while simultaneously derailing the thread and pinging them for attention?

Battle type each other all you want. Idrc. But armchair diagnosis is where I draw the line.

Everybody here is speculating about type and i was giving an alternative explanation for questions and issues that had been discussed by multiple people in this thread before. I do not see how this is supposed be off-topic and how a forum about socionics should not be the place for armchair diagnosis, it is to a large degree what this forum is about.

[Lord Panda]

Everybody here is speculating about type and i was giving an alternative explanation for questions and issues that had been discussed by multiple people in this thread before. I do not see how this is supposed be off-topic and how a forum about socionics should not be the place for armchair diagnosis, it is to a large degree what this forum is about.

There is a very clear distinction between speculating about sociotypes and diagnosing someone with mental illness, which you are alluding to when using words like "narcissistic traits." These things have clear psychological definitions. It's surprising to me that you can't grasp this distinction. Are you saying that socionics, the way we practice it, is as valid and equivalent to the actual clinical psychology? And yes, this is thread derailing.

I honestly don't care what you do or other people do. I just think it's vastly ironic to call someone "narcissistic" and then make such a dramatic post about them. This is my last response on this topic. I hope we can get back to talking about how people interpret PolR Fi.

[Itsme]

There is a very clear distinction between speculating about sociotypes and diagnosing someone with mental illness, which you are alluding to when using words like "narcissistic traits." These things have clear psychological definitions. It's surprising to me that you can't grasp this distinction. Are you saying that socionics, the way we practice it, is as valid and equivalent to the actual clinical psychology? And yes, this is thread derailing.

You were already highlighting the semantic distinction i made yourself, so please stick to it, narcissitic traits do not always equate a narcistic personality disorder , also i was even by giving a behavioral hypothesis for these traits which makes it even less aboslute.
The thread derail is you trying to make a moral argument about a simple hypothesis i formed.
My Points are as on topic as the last three pages of the thread while your points would be better suited for a thread called 'is it okay to form hypothesis about people having bad personality traits'.
Maybe it is just quadra differences, so, why don't we just stop at:

• Alpha types prefer to avoid the discussion of controversial and unpleasant subjects regarding personal relationships while in groups, especially if leading to confrontations.
• Alpha types are inclined to be tolerating of minor past misdeeds by others, giving priority to reconciliation and a convivial atmosphere.

• Gamma types take a hard-line approach regarding ethical principles and the punishment, even revenge, on those who break them.
• Gamma types reject the idea that it's best to avoid confrontations so as not to spoil the mood of those present, they prefer directness in settling or at least discussing disagreements.

According to the theory we will not come to any other agreement here anyways.

[Lord Pixel]

Do the flaws override the good qualities like friendliness, honestly, loyalty, etc. in your opinion?

No. Negative reactions don't mean you hate someone, it's just a reaction to what they just said.

TBH, I'm probably as clueless as he is. The difference would be that I am really really careful about what I say to people. Despite that, I sometimes still end up blurting out things. When I get riled up, my speech turns into word vomit and I can say things that make people raise their eyebrows. The best solution I have found is to just surround myself with people who would either not notice it or don't mind it. He seems to not have that filter. He treats people all the same, whether they are his friends or not. For example, I needed his help one time and he took several weeks to help me out despite me not talking to him for years. That's a pretty good quality, imo. I can deal with it if he's rude or annoying or something like that.

I mean nobody is perfect, anyone can offend someone.

In your previous post you gave some examples. Could you explain your reason for being annoyed by your coworker? It seems like he's a nice person who cares about your well being. Maybe he believes you would benefit from socializing or maybe he wants to get to know you better? I had a similar experience with an ILE boss at my work. He came up to me and said "You're too quiet and withdrawn. You really should talk more to people or they will think you're just here to work." I took that to mean that he was concerned I was bringing down the morale of the team. I tried my best to talk to everyone after that. What exactly about it do you find annoying? I'm asking because I genuinely don't understand.

His behavior annoyed me but I didn't post it to say "look this behavior is annoying." I posted to say "I wish this guy cut me off but he did the opposite" like the other person says Fi PoLRs cut ppl off.

To answer the question though, idk I just found it annoying that a guy I barely know is trying to pressure me to talk to him, nobody else was doing that to me at the job and if I want to talk to someone I will, all this pressuring puts me on the spot and made me uncomfortable and for what? Because you feel weird with my quietness?

And I kinda did sense the "you're affecting the morale "thing. It might be Fe ignoring, but my last concern was the "work environment morale" being affected because of my "quietness", especially since I was new to the job and felt like I had no influence over the work environment whatsoever at that point. And my quietness only matter because I was new. I was trying to be low key and just get my work done, now I gotta do this extra thing "be social" that's not on my job description and for what, it doesn't help me get my job done faster? And that also takes energy I'm not willing to give yet. Much later I got comfortable and did eventually get along with folks just fine but that was on my timeline not his, it's like he expected me to be comfortable and talkative from the get go.

Funny that you said that about your ILE co-worker, my SLE manager said "You're too quiet" to me, that didn't annoy me as much since he only said it one time, and it's a common thing extroverts say to introverts so it's not like I haven't heard that before. It's the pestering and pressuring because they're uncomfortable with someone's quietness, that's annoying and really isn't my problem. I knew an EIE like that too.

[Lord Panda]

1) No. Negative reactions don't mean you hate someone, it's just a reaction to what they just said.

2) I mean nobody is perfect, anyone can offend someone.

3) His behavior annoyed me but I didn't post it to say "look this behavior is annoying." I posted to say "I wish this guy cut me off but he did the opposite" like the other person says Fi PoLRs cut ppl off.

4) To answer the question though, idk I just found it annoying that a guy I barely know is trying to pressure me to talk to him, nobody else was doing that to me at the job and if I want to talk to someone I will, all this pressuring puts me on the spot and made me uncomfortable and for what? Because you feel weird with my quietness?

5) And I kinda did sense the "you're affecting the morale "thing. It might be Fe ignoring, but my last concern was the "work environment morale" being affected because of my "quietness", especially since I was new to the job and felt like I had no influence over the work environment whatsoever at that point. And my quietness only matter because I was new. I was trying to be low key and just get my work done, now I gotta do this extra thing "be social" that's not on my job description and for what, it doesn't help me get my job done faster? And that also takes energy I'm not willing to give yet. Much later I got comfortable and did eventually get along with folks just fine but that was on my timeline not his, it's like he expected me to be comfortable and talkative from the get go.

6) Funny that you said that about your ILE co-worker, my SLE manager said "You're too quiet" to me, that didn't annoy me as much since he only said it one time, and it's a common thing extroverts say to introverts so it's not like I haven't heard that before. It's the pestering and pressuring because they're uncomfortable with someone's quietness, that's annoying and really isn't my problem. I knew an EIE like that too.

1) Okay, I get you. To me tho, I sometimes don't know if people are upset because they're upset or because they really hate me. It's so confusing

2) Yeah, I understand.

3) Okay I missed that context. I disagree with that. It's the Fi valuing types that cut people off.

4) Ah okay. I feel different under those circumstances. I find it easier to just go with whatever everyone else is doing.

5) Your point is justified. I just find that if I get along with people, it just makes it easier to integrate into the group which is important to me. I really notice it if I'm being treated differently for some reason but there's not much I feel I can do about it.

6) I get that too sometimes. It doesn't really annoy me. I don't really notice the things people say.

[sbbds]

Jung cites Darwin in his Psychological types as a prime example​ of Te.

Comprehensive scientific work. First scientific theory of emotions.

Did he just reference Darwin or the theory as an example of Te? Or?...

[Computer Loser]

Fi-PoLR is simply being harsh/blunt without considering how the other may take it. its speaking your mind without considering the ethical/social consequences

[The Reality Denialist]

Fi-PoLR is simply being harsh/blunt without considering how the other may take it. its speaking your mind without considering the ethical/social consequences

This is so because condition of relationship does not light up. It can go other way like being too meek and this time not because of considering relationship at hand because it is just how they are predisposed at the moment. Or they can be trolls or whatever their current state because the same reason. Speaking your mind could also indicate of considering relational status so they can also fail at it because they do not care.

[Computer Loser]

This is so because condition of relationship does not light up. It can go other way like being too meek and this time not because of considering relationship at hand because it is just how they are predisposed at the moment. Or they can be trolls or whatever their current state because the same reason. Speaking your mind could also indicate of considering relational status so they can also fail at it because they do not care.

yea i remember it was my brothers graduation and I asked my LSE (childhood friend) whether he'd miss my brother (INFp) once he leaves and he shook his head and just said "nah" lol, which is fine.... but I was also recording him on camera for my family and I thought it was a bit inappropriate

but yea i agree with what u wrote

[marooned]

1) Overestimation of his own abilities in Fx department, specifically Fe
2) Readings, especially more connected with observation of external manifestations (so mostly Fe), can be learned even by - the most passive in that department - XLIs (and specifically Ni-potent ILIs; it's the usage that is poor, and the liking of overt Fe that is not there). Almost all humans have innate emotions-perceiving mechanisms that can distinguish a sad face from a disgusted face, and you can train this either consciously or unconsciously (good observational skills required). More than one XLI or alpha NT has written a thesis on human emotions, as much as it seems 'lol EXE' - it's how you take this topic that makes a difference; intuitives should maybe learn that easier, but I think intelligence plays a huge role

why do you see it as overestimation for @shotgunfingers ? at least on here, it actually seems to be true in practice as well...

[Itsme]

Did he just reference Darwin or the theory as an example of Te? Or?...

I think this is the source being referenced, here darwins theory is associated with the vortical syngernic cognition which is not just (LIE)'s Te but also IEI, ESE, and SLIs way of thinking.

https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....etic_Cognition

Vortical cognition developed into a unique intellectual paradigm that was deemed later than all others to have social merit, despite it being most akin to natural phenomena. It is known that in natural conditions, all processes run in cycles. For example, in laissez-faire economies operating on Adam Smith's 'invisible hand' principle, natural cyclical fluctuations in market supply and demand guide the natural equilibrium prices of goods.
Studying biological evolution, Charles Darwin discovered its origin as a struggle for existence against natural selection, and survival of the fittest organisms. The main engine of this 'evolution', is involution through events of random variation, which abruptly leave no intermediate gradual links between appearances of species.
Biological self-organization is catalyzed by mutation—sudden, unpredictable changes in genetic material. Involution generates pulsating chaos, as evolution simultaneously selects and propagates useful mutations.
Following in the involutionary trend of Darwinism, the concept of 'punctuated equilibrium' emphasizes the discontinuous development of species observed in nature. Authors Gould and Eldridge conclude from this fact that smooth gradual evolution of species is impossible under natural conditions. To survive, all organs must simultaneously be in working order; there are no creatures present with half-fin wings, half-hoof toes, etc. According to this theory, the lifetime of a species is divided into two unequal stages of duration. The first stage is stasis, long periods where no significant species change occurs. Then the second stage, a time of fracture when the species is rapidly converted into another form, or dies out.
In the 20th century, as I mentioned, the vortex idea was rediscovered and Synergetics adopted its armament. The motto of Synergetics—order through fluctuation. Such fluctuations (local perturbations in the system) are analogous to biological mutation. Order in the chaotic evolution of complex socio-psychological systems, Socionics understands through the law of quadra progression. However, we must not forget that in the irreversible progression of quadras is a series of involutional junctures—jumps, twists, and turns. Because of this, the real non-theoretical quadra progression curve is jagged and looped, its outline resembling the dancing tongues of a burning flame.

[sbbds]

I think this is the source being referenced, here darwins theory is associated with the vortical syngernic cognition which is not just (LIE)'s Te but also IEI, ESE, and SLIs way of thinking.

https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....etic_Cognition

This isn’t Jung.