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Thread: Logically rationalize God

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I think it's strange to say that people cannot know God. There are people who have had strong inner revelations and callings. If you have an experience of an inner ultimate spiritual authority that will change the course of your life, then who are we to say that this wasn't God?
    ...Who are we to say that it was God? I think saying that it was in fact God, and saying that you believe in God are two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Of course some will always say that it was just imagination. But if this "imagination" had that strong impact on you, labelling it like that is not gonna change the basic fact of the experience.
    The strength of a conviction does not necessarily make it more true.

    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    This was nicely explored in the movie "Contact", where the protagonist, a firm atheist, went on a Journey into outer space, yet when she returned home could not prove she went anywhere. Her rationality broke down and it was shown that it didn't matter or not if she had in fact went anywhere, it was that she was given such a powerful personal experience of her own revelation, that proving it scientifically was now beyond necessity anymore.
    Kind of funny how a moment ago were saying that we should rely on "data", now you're saying that we should rely on "experience".

    I wouldn't say her "rationality broke down", that's actually kind of a disturbing way to put it. It was more that she had a strong belief or a faith in aliens existing, but she couldn't "prove" it. And it's this faith that drives her.

    I think that's kind of the point of emotions. It doesn't really have any kind of rationale for it existing, but it exists for the sole purpose of driving you into an action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post

    I was probably saying those words, in fluent Greek, before you were born. I have nothing to prove to you. I have freely admitted to being a witchy woman. if I say any words it is because they are mine and come from my heart, not yours.

    I have a "source of all things" within me. I am not defining the energy beyond that right now. I am not linking it to any specific religion. You do not know what my relationship to source is.


    I just got hit with flashbacks to The Thunder Perfect Mind.

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    @Aylen. Again, you miss the point and again I will ask you to simply do as I ask as you are making yourself quite a ripe target for my little test. They are just mere words (that you've even said yourself verbatim before if you're being honest about your background here), bits of data, a simple collection of one's and zero's after all. So why not just say the words with fingers crossed blaspheming and all? Dare I say you may well make me a Pagan if you did so . No, seriously, I'm that certain on this front. Say the words, post them here, defy my expectations, and you really will shake my faith as I currently hold it. I'm essentially offering you my neck here, why not swing the blade?

    As for that hatred you detected, good on you as you're mostly correct. Most modern "Christians" are sadly anything but. Like I said, damned "So" instinct. It's more about the group mentality than it is actual faith. "We" Good, "They" baaaad. Basic human fallen nature. You misunderstand my viewpoint however. From my own perspective, I don't see a single soul as being truly damned until they've died (and even then I cannot be sure for I am not God). You ain't going to hell until you die and refuse God's mercy. It's a thing Catholic teaching says is possible (eg. you truly repent for all your sins upon seeing the merest sliver of the abyss even if you haven't gone to confession recently), but that's like banking on winning tonight's lottery to pay off the mob debt you owe that's gonna come due exactly one hour and 15 seconds after that drawing is finalized. Might work on paper, could happen, but not a thing you'd exactly think is a wise course of action.

    C.S. Lewis had a good quote relating to what I'm getting at here: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened."
    Last edited by End; 10-27-2019 at 05:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    So why not just say the words with fingers crossed blaspheming and all?
    Fuck you god fuck you god

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    Fuck you god fuck you god
    You almost had my number but, predictably, failure. See. you had to first say something like "Jesus is the Christ and God has risen him from the dead", "Jesus/Christ is King", "Praise be unto the one true lord Jesus Christ", etc.

    Try again, please. I have full faith and confidence in my God (that you have in one form or another as I've frequently pointed out to literally everyone on this forum). So I get to ask another fun question. Who/what is your god? I am legitimately curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    You almost had my number but, predictably, failure. See. you had to first say something like "Jesus is the Christ and God has risen him from the dead", "Jesus/Christ is King", "Praise be unto the one true lord Jesus Christ", etc.

    Try again, please. I have full faith and confidence in my God (that you have in one form or another as I've frequently pointed out to literally everyone on this forum), do you?
    You got all that from what I said, shit. I wonder what ur blood pressure is at. Well since you asked I have full confidence in my god. Have you figured out my denomination yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    You got all that from what I said, shit. I wonder what ur blood pressure is at. Well since you asked I have full confidence in my god. Have you figured out my denomination yet?
    It get's hard for a mere mortal like me to figure that shit out once it gets to this point. I mean, how many sects/denominations are we up to now? It's well over a thousand I'd wager. I'll need at least some cursory hints to narrow it down given that fact. Still, you're not in the "Shoot all Papists dead on sight" camp it would seem. That's a point in your favor on my end .

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    It get's hard for a mere mortal like me to figure that shit out once it gets to this point. I mean, how many sects/denominations are we up to now? It's well over a thousand I'd wager. I'll need at least some cursory hints to narrow it down given that fact. Still, you're not in the "Shoot all Papists dead on sight" camp it would seem. That's a point in your favor on my end .

    Several thousands. Blah Blah, yes. But if there are so many then how can you be sure that urs is the right one?

    I've given you several cursory notes, maby you were not paying attention. Also being a 'mere mortal' such as yourself is a way of shifting blame, and responsibility. I'd be more careful about doing so, if I were in those shoes of yours.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    ...Who are we to say that it was God? I think saying that it was in fact God, and saying that you believe in God are two different things.
    I'm just saying that there are inner experiences that match what one can call God. Belief has nothing to do with it.

    The strength of a conviction does not necessarily make it more true.
    It's not a conviction. You didn't understand my previous post. You can make a loose comparison to falling in love. It's also not a conviction and needs no proof. It's an inner power that sort of holds you in its grip.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Aylen. Again, you miss the point and again I will ask you to simply do as I ask as you are making yourself quite a ripe target for my little test. They are just mere words (that you've even said yourself verbatim before if you're being honest about your background here), bits of data, a simple collection of one's and zero's after all. So why not just say the words with fingers crossed blaspheming and all? Dare I say you may well make me a Pagan if you did so . No, seriously, I'm that certain on this front. Say the words, post them here, defy my expectations, and you really will shake my faith as I currently hold it. I'm essentially offering you my neck here, why not swing the blade?

    As for that hatred you detected, good on you as you're mostly correct. Most modern "Christians" are sadly anything but. Like I said, damned "So" instinct. It's more about the group mentality than it is actual faith. "We" Good, "They" baaaad. Basic human fallen nature. You misunderstand my viewpoint however. From my own perspective, I don't see a single soul as being truly damned until they've died (and even then I cannot be sure for I am not God). You ain't going to hell until you die and refuse God's mercy. It's a thing Catholic teaching says is possible (eg. you truly repent for all your sins upon seeing the merest sliver of the abyss even if you haven't gone to confession recently), but that's like banking on winning tonight's lottery to pay off the mob debt you owe that's gonna come due exactly one hour and 15 seconds after that drawing is finalized. Might work on paper, could happen, but not a thing you'd exactly think is a wise course of action.

    C.S. Lewis had a good quote relating to what I'm getting at here: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened."
    A merciful being does not engage in torture.

    You cannot choose to go to a place you don't believe in.

    According to the bible, Jesus has already redeemed everybody's sins. That means that if the Christian God sends anyone to hell, it isn't because of sin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Aylen. Again, you miss the point and again I will ask you to simply do as I ask as you are making yourself quite a ripe target for my little test. They are just mere words (that you've even said yourself verbatim before if you're being honest about your background here), bits of data, a simple collection of one's and zero's after all. So why not just say the words with fingers crossed blaspheming and all? Dare I say you may well make me a Pagan if you did so . No, seriously, I'm that certain on this front. Say the words, post them here, defy my expectations, and you really will shake my faith as I currently hold it. I'm essentially offering you my neck here, why not swing the blade?

    As for that hatred you detected, good on you as you're mostly correct. Most modern "Christians" are sadly anything but. Like I said, damned "So" instinct. It's more about the group mentality than it is actual faith. "We" Good, "They" baaaad. Basic human fallen nature. You misunderstand my viewpoint however. From my own perspective, I don't see a single soul as being truly damned until they've died (and even then I cannot be sure for I am not God). You ain't going to hell until you die and refuse God's mercy. It's a thing Catholic teaching says is possible (eg. you truly repent for all your sins upon seeing the merest sliver of the abyss even if you haven't gone to confession recently), but that's like banking on winning tonight's lottery to pay off the mob debt you owe that's gonna come due exactly one hour and 15 seconds after that drawing is finalized. Might work on paper, could happen, but not a thing you'd exactly think is a wise course of action.

    C.S. Lewis had a good quote relating to what I'm getting at here: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened."
    Not sure why you are questioning my honesty on this. My past concerning religion is something I have written somewhat in depth on in various threads. I also wrote about why I chose to stop identifying myself as a Christian. My mom was always pretty devout and was angry at me for it. We worked it out because I respect her. I no longer wanted to make her feel bad about what she believes. It broke her heart when I told her I was not one anymore. In her mind I am and always will be. When we lived in Greece she watched them dunk me in the holy water at 41 days old. I let her hold onto that idea after some initial conflict over it because I love her too. It was like a "don't ask, don't tell" situation after that. Until she got really sick and was put in hospice, then I prayed with her in Greek which I hadn't for years. We all did. So like I said before, I have nothing to prove to you. I prayed with my mom to comfort her. What you are asking is silly to me but that's ok. I have no desire to turn you pagan or anything else. Maybe you are a witch too.

    My posts are there for anyone to read. Are you really questioning if I am capable of saying the Orthodox Christian prayers in Greek before you were born? I was born in Greece, moved to the USA when I was a small child, went to Sunday school every Sunday and to Greek school after regular school so I once spoke Greek fluently. I lost most of it when I stopped going to Greek school but it does come back to me and I can understand better than speak it now. I was made to recite the prayers in both Greek school and Sunday school in front of everyone. So let's say if I was age 7 at that time, it was before you were born since I don't know your age for sure. I think it is at the very least 7 years between us. If you are older than me I have to reset my concept of reality.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post


    I just got hit with flashbacks to The Thunder Perfect Mind.
    Love that site. I have read it before. <3 I have a copy of the Nag Hammadhi Library but it is kind of thick and heavy so I like to read online. I found it much more interesting to read than the bible. You might find this kind of in synch. I love this poem and have posted on the forum before.


    The Return of Lilith

    Author: Joumana Haddad
    Translated by: Henry Matthews

    Wildcats shall meet with hyenas;
    goat-demons shall call to each other.
    There too Lilith shall repose,
    and find a place to rest.
    Isaiah 34:14

    I am Lilith, returned from her exile.

    I am Lilith, returned from the prison of white oblivion, lioness of the master and goddess of the twin moons. I gather in a cup what cannot be gathered, and I drink it, for I am the priestess and the temple. I leave no drop for no one, lest they think I have had enough. I copulate and multiply by myself to make a people from my own, and then kill my lovers to make way for those who did not know me.

    I am Lilith, the forest woman. I did not know a hopeful wait but I have known lions and true beasts. I impregnate all parts in me to weave the tale; I gather voices in my womb to complete the number of slaves. I eat my body so I am not accused of hunger and I drink my water so I am not thirsty. My tresses are long for the winter and my bags have no ceiling. Nothing quenches me and nothing fills me, and I return to be the lioness of the lost on earth.

    Long are my tresses
    Far
    And long
    Like a smile fading away in the rain
    Slumber after pleasure reached.
    My shivers are scars of shadows sometimes
    And gleams of the blade, at all times.

    I am the guardian of the well, the sum of contrasts. Kisses on my body are the scars of those who tried. From the flute between the thighs my song rises and from my song flows the curse, water on the earth.

    I am the two moons Lilith. The hand of every maiden, the window of every virgin. The angel of the fall and the conscience of light slumber. Daughter of Delilah, Magdalena and the seven fairies. From my lust mountains rise and rivers break. I return to injure the wisp of virtue with my water and rub the ointment of sin on the wounds of deprivation.

    I am the curse of past curses
    The enticer of boats so the storm will not abate
    My names bejewel your tongues when thirsty you
    Follow me as the touch follows the kiss
    And take me like the night on his mother’s breast.

    I am Lilith the secret of fingers that insist. I open the road and uncover dreams and lay bare the cities of manhood for my deluge. I do not gather two from each kind but I become them so the species will be pure from any virtue.

    The dreams are all open to me
    I am the conscience of light slumber
    I wear and shed the dream
    entice the boats away and don’t guide the storm
    I scatter the sky with the cunning of a cloud
    So no one gets my honey
    I have no home and no pillow
    I am the naked
    Who gives nudity the flower of its meaning.

    I am Lilith the cup and the server
    I came to say:
    More than one cup for me
    I came to say:
    The server is blind
    I came to say:
    Adam, Adam, you are busy with many matters but the need is one.

    Gather me
    The need is one
    Come gather me in the rain of your eyes
    Stab your mounts in my abyss
    Carve your features in the memory of my palms
    And breathe the tigress lurking at the drop of the shoulders.

    I am Lilith, the verse of apple. Books wrote me even if you did not read me. I am the unbridled pleasure the renegade wife the fulfillment of lust which brings the great destruction. My shirt is a window on madness. Whoever hears me deserves to die and whoever does not hear me will be killed by his remorse.

    I am the moon within
    Astray is my compass and migration my home
    No caller knocks at my door
    No house leads to my window
    And no window exists but the illusion of a window.

    I am not the stubborn steed or the easy ride, rather the shiver of the first seduction.
    I am neither the stubborn horse nor the easy steed, rather the debacle of the final regret.

    I am Lilith the destiny woman
    Salome’s last dance and the fading of the light
    I climb your night stone by stone every time the sun of absence bleeds the horizon
    I climb to set a dream to the table
    I delve into your vagabond mind
    I make room for my head in your sleep.

    For my blazes I climb up the stairways of the night
    And for your dreams
    I seek not certainty but obsession
    Not arriving but the pleasure of not arriving.
    Your night is my ladder to me
    And my hand to beneath the imaginary.

    I am the two genders Lilith. I am the desired gender. I take and am not given. I bring back to Adam his truth, and to Eve her ferocious breast so the logic of creation is appeased.

    I am the one who was conceived under the sign of ecstasy
    She whose presence rises
    She whose tongue is a beehive
    She who is a cake, eaten and kept
    She who is the crying hunger
    And who Limbo preserves.

    I am the arrogance of the two breasts
    Budding to grow and laugh
    To want and be eaten
    My breasts are salty
    So high that I do not reach them:
    Kiss them for me.

    Two lamps hint in two lights
    Budding so that their mischief may be forgiven.

    I am Lilith, the lascivious angel. Adam’s first steed, corrupter of Satan. The shadow of stifled sex and its purest scream. I am the shy maiden of the volcano, the jealous because I am the beautiful whisperer of the wilderness. The first paradise could not stand me. I was pushed out to sow conflict on earth and arrange in beds the matters of my subjects.

    My hand is the key to flame and the fierceness of hope
    Your bodies are firewood and my hand is the fireplace
    My hand is unbridled desire:
    With faith
    It moves mountains.

    I, the goddess of the twin nights, the destiny of the wise. The unity of sleep and wakefulness. I am the foetus poet. I slew myself and found her. I return from my exile to be the bride of the seven days and the destruction of future life.

    I am the seducing lioness. I return to slay the prisoners and rule the earth.
    I return to mend Adam’s ribs and rid the men from their Eves.

    I am Lilith, returned from exile to inherit the death of the mother to whom
    I gave birth



    Probably going to get asked to pass a witch test again for that one.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Love that site. I have read it before. <3 I have a copy of the Nag Hammadhi Library but it is kind of thick and heavy so I like to read online. I found it much more interesting to read than the bible. You might find this kind of in synch. I love this poem and have posted on the forum before.


    The Return of Lilith


    Probably going to get asked to pass a witch test again for that one.
    Yea, a little too in sync. Hmm.. IEI. Witch. Lilith complex... this is entrapment

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    @End: relying on magical incantations to try to prove/disprove someone is a witch. . . do you see the irony?
    If it's magical nonsense than why is it so effective? I mean seriously, try and get people to say the words. It's shocking how hard it is for many of them to do so publicly. Doubly so since I'm making a great deal of concessions here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Not sure why you are questioning my honesty on this.
    I'm not really (many have fallen away from the faith to be sure and you are probably one of them, but it would also be good rhetoric to say what you did and thus my philosophical disdain for such things came out. Damned Sophists ruin everything), but while you may have nothing to prove to me I still find it fascinating that you won't say words you've said before (or that anyone else isn't doing something logical. Like I said, I'm at their mercy, why will they not strike me?) It's the fact that it's essentially recorded I'd wager. That's the major stumbling block far as I can deduce. I've said it above, you and anyone else here can pretty effectively shake my current understanding of the world if they but type and post mere words on a forum 99.9 percent of the world's population will never see or even know about. They have to be hostile towards Christ and/or unbelievers first though, any believer would obviously be able to do it easily so it proves only that they do in fact believe. Good for them, but not exactly defying my current understanding of things .
    Last edited by End; 10-28-2019 at 03:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    If it's magical nonsense than why is it so effective? I mean seriously, try and get people to say the words. It's shocking how hard it is for many of them to do so publicly. Doubly so since I'm making a great deal of concessions here.



    I'm not really (many have fallen away from the faith to be sure and you are probably one of them, but it would also be good rhetoric to say what you did and thus my philosophical disdain for such things came out. Damned Sophists ruin everything), but while you may have nothing to prove to me I still find it fascinating that you won't say words you've said before (or that anyone else isn't doing something logical. Like I said, I'm at their mercy, why will they not strike me?) It's the fact that it's essentially recorded I'd wager. That's the major stumbling block far as I can deduce. I've said it above, you and anyone else here can pretty effectively shake my current understanding of the world if they but type and post mere words on a forum 99.9 percent of the world's population will never see or even know about. They have to be hostile towards Christ and/or unbelievers first though, any believer would obviously be able to do it easily so it proves only that they do in fact believe. Good for them, but not exactly defying my current understanding of things .
    You are retarded. People being conditioned their entire lives not to say certain things and being expectedly taken by surprise when asked to say them out of the blue is unrelated to God’s existence and not proof of anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    You are retarded. People being conditioned their entire lives not to say certain things and being expectedly taken by surprise when asked to say them out of the blue is unrelated to God’s existence and not proof of anything.
    Than why not prove your own point yourself? Say the words, post them here. Come now, if it's just words surely you can type them out. I mean, I'll even go first. God isn't real. There, I said and posted a thing I know not to be true. Can you not do the same? No? Who is the truly retarded one then? Seriously, you people are just making me more and more certain that I am right about the Christ. It's a quote attributed to Voltaire but damned am I not feeling it: "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."

    You entire lot are doing a damned good job of it from my end. I thank you for it endlessly .

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Than why not prove your own point yourself? Say the words, post them here. Come now, if it's just words surely you can type them out. I mean, I'll even go first. God isn't real. There, I said and posted a thing I know not to be true. Can you not do the same? No? Who is the truly retarded one then? Seriously, you people are just making me more and more certain that I am right about the Christ. It's a quote attributed to Voltaire but damned am I not feeling it: "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."

    You entire lot are doing a damned good job of it from my end. I thank you for it endlessly .
    God isn’t real. I do believe in a god though, I’m just not Christian. You should re-evaluate your life if you get entertainment from this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    God isn’t real. I do believe in a god though, I’m just not Christian. You should re-evaluate your life if you get entertainment from this.
    Once again, so close, yet so far. It's a friggin' template for crying out loud. Say "Christ is King" before you say "God isn't real". I mean I keep on trying to get you folks to shake my faith and yet again and again you all just fail to defy my expectations. Why? I'm banging on the detonation trigger of a nuke daring it to go off and yet ye who hold the button refuse to depress it and in so doing reduce me to ash. Why not push that button? I severely doubt I am so beloved by you all that you'd seriously lament my passing .

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    @ashlesha

    Thanks for making this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Once again, so close, yet so far. It's a friggin' template for crying out loud. Say "Christ is King" before you say "God isn't real". I mean I keep on trying to get you folks to shake my faith and yet again and again you all just fail to defy my expectations. Why? I'm banging on the detonation trigger of a nuke daring it to go off and yet ye who hold the button refuse to depress it and in so doing reduce me to ash. Why not push that button? I severely doubt I am so beloved by you all that you'd seriously lament my passing .
    Christ is King. God isn’t real.

    I saw your dad last night. His clit made for tasty salami pasta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Does Carbon and Oxygen Know how to form Carbon Monoxide
    It's a chemical reaction. 2 CO (g) + O2 (g) 2 CO2 (g)

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Does DNA Know how to self-replicate?
    It's a process that depends on where we're starting from. Ex: Sperm and Egg. Ex 2: Fully grown Human beings with skin cells that self replicate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Do plants Know that they should grow towards the light?
    It's a process that depends on where we're starting from. Ex: Water and light helps a plant grow

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Do toads Know that they should try to catch horizontal lines that move rather than vertical ones?
    Instinctual mechanism via DNA/adaptation
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 10-28-2019 at 06:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nye View Post
    It's a chemical reaction. 2 CO (g) + O2 (g) 2 CO2 (g)



    It's a process that depends on where we're starting from. Ex: Sperm and Egg. Ex 2: Fully grown Human beings with skin cells that self replicate.




    It's a process that depends on where we're starting from. Ex: Water and light helps a plant grow



    Instinctual mechanism via DNA/adaptation
    How do we determine what the minimal level of what qualifies for concepts such as life / consciousness / intelligence? I'm sorry if that question is a little difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    How do we determine what the minimal level of what qualifies for concepts such as life / consciousness / intelligence? I'm sorry if that question is a little difficult.
    We can try putting random pieces of DNA floating around in a swamp and see if they self-replicate.

    I dunno

    It is difficult because nobody knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Christ is King.
    Praise Jesus for the graces of conversion! See? That wasn't all that hard was it? Still, it is shocking how few people can actually manage to do what you just did. Perhaps you are not as lost as others might think or actually are .

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Once again, so close, yet so far. It's a friggin' template for crying out loud. Say "Christ is King" before you say "God isn't real". I mean I keep on trying to get you folks to shake my faith and yet again and again you all just fail to defy my expectations. Why? I'm banging on the detonation trigger of a nuke daring it to go off and yet ye who hold the button refuse to depress it and in so doing reduce me to ash. Why not push that button? I severely doubt I am so beloved by you all that you'd seriously lament my passing .
    "Christ" is just a title. The Jews were talking of mystical cosmological a Jesus\Joshua more than a century before your "Jesus" was said to have been born, and were still doing so after the time of your "Jesus". In such a climate, how can you know that anything attributed to Jesus (the details of his life, his sayings etc.) actually happened?

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    If it's magical nonsense than why is it so effective? I mean seriously, try and get people to say the words. It's shocking how hard it is for many of them to do so publicly. Doubly so since I'm making a great deal of concessions here.



    I'm not really (many have fallen away from the faith to be sure and you are probably one of them, but it would also be good rhetoric to say what you did and thus my philosophical disdain for such things came out. Damned Sophists ruin everything), but while you may have nothing to prove to me I still find it fascinating that you won't say words you've said before (or that anyone else isn't doing something logical. Like I said, I'm at their mercy, why will they not strike me?) It's the fact that it's essentially recorded I'd wager. That's the major stumbling block far as I can deduce. I've said it above, you and anyone else here can pretty effectively shake my current understanding of the world if they but type and post mere words on a forum 99.9 percent of the world's population will never see or even know about. They have to be hostile towards Christ and/or unbelievers first though, any believer would obviously be able to do it easily so it proves only that they do in fact believe. Good for them, but not exactly defying my current understanding of things .
    End, I am not going to cater to your kinky fantasy here. If you want someone to strike you try some bdsm community or maybe you will have some luck asking nicely in random thoughts thread.

    Aside from that, I have no desire to change your beliefs or shake your world. Believe what you want. I think, what you think, you are deducing from all this does not apply in my case. I can't speak for others. People just think you are being delusional and arrogant with you requests since you don't demonstrate any real knowledge about your religion. You pretty much confirmed my suspicion that you are highly influenced by fantasy/anime plus you have some kind of martyr complex going on here.

    I wish you the best on your spiritual journey.


    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Praise Jesus for the graces of conversion! See? That wasn't all that hard was it? Still, it is shocking how few people can actually manage to do what you just did. Perhaps you are not as lost as others might think or actually are .
    That is not how conversion works.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    @End or anybody knowledge about such things, if somebody says they believe in God and find the jesus myth helpful in the development of their relationship with God, but they kinda pick and choose from the bible don't take things literally.. are they the same as an atheist? Maybe worse, because it's half assed? Or I guess Progressive churches are seen as christianity but a weak and light version, they still get heaven,etc?
    That's kinda where I'm at/am going, and approval isn't needed and I dunno about the whole afterlife thing anyway, but I'm curious.

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    @End
    1) IEI's and SLE's have psychopathic tendencies and fall into Situational Ethics very easily. "If no one saw it then I don't feel guilty for it." Once the light turns off and there is no Natural Law to judge all behavior then there is nothing to produce conviction for the words they speak.
    “During content-based syllogistic reasoning (e.g. All apples are red fruit; All red fruit are poisonous; [All apples are therefore poisonous] a left hemisphere frontal and Temporal Lobe system is recruited. By contrast, in a formally identical reasoning task with arbitrary content (e.g. All A are B; All B are C; [All A are therefore C] a bilateral Parietal system is recruited.”
    Neurologically, if ‘God’ exists, then he sees everything which is done by everyone—this puts all persons on the same level, with no Temporal Lobe content-based 'special cases', and this mental approach will automatically trigger analysis by the Superior Parietal. This suggests that the neural structures involved in spatial processing are the basic building blocks for belief-neutral [Natural Law] logical reasoning.


    2) Technically, a person seeking Maturity will reprogram their mind using a vow of silence. This is an orientation towards ‘non-violent resistance’ when confronted with evil. In its essence, this is a peaceful but active non-cooperation with what is non-beneficial. It watches, listens, learns Cause-and-Effect, and implements with HAND MOVEMENTS a path that is beneficial. One must put up with people who are being extremely stupid, and who are acting in very dumb ways. It all fosters an attitude of ‘meekness.’ Internally, this very attitude begins to integrate Thinking (voluntary motor intentions) with Feeling (emotional valence). This recognizes, in meekness, that ‘good’ and ‘evil’ interweave through every person; killing enemies thus destroys good along with evil, and is non-optimal.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_D...p_to_Democracy


    3) Separation into units of people [in this case belief groups] only reinforces the content-based Situational Ethics of IEI and SLE, giving them Situational audiences to play politician with. Recall that the Superior Parietal area takes over from the Superior Temporal whenever actual examples are replaced by abstract variables such as A, B, or C. I'm suggesting here that Circuits of Thought in a Universal Mind subject to Mental Cause-and-Effect is the proper spatial context for moral reasoning over human beings. This can be treated as another interpretation of the Categorical Imperative or Golden Rule.
    https://biblescripture.net/James.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    "Christ" is just a title.
    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    In such a climate, how can you know that anything attributed to Jesus (the details of his life, his sayings etc.) actually happened?

    Some non-religious documents from Historians during the time of "our Jesus"

    -Jew antiquities by Flavious Josephus
    -Annals of Imperial Rome by Cornelius Tacitus
    -Pliny the Younger
    -Suetonius
    -Etc

    Although modern historians disagree here and there when it comes to what parts of his life were real, it’s safe to say there was a Jesus, who was associated with John the Baptist, and was executed by the Romans.

    If angry atheists that hate Christians are crossing their arms demanding more "concrete evidence," sorry but there's no explanation for why we should expect more evidence than we do have. There's a limited and selective body of evidence for EVERYTHING in ancient history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post

    The Jews were talking of mystical cosmological a Jesus\Joshua more than a century before your "Jesus" was said to have been born, and were still doing so after the time of your "Jesus".
    There are three strands of mythicism, including:

    1. The view that there may have been a historical Jesus, who lived in a dimly remembered past, and was fused with the mythological Christ of Paul.
    2. There was never a historical Jesus, only a mythological character, later historicized in the Gospels.
    3. No conclusion can be made about a historical Jesus, and if there was one, nothing can be known about him.

    What do current day historians think about this?

    Current day historians (wikipedia):

    In modern scholarship, the Christ myth theory is a fringe theory, which finds virtually no support from scholars, to the point of being irrelevant and almost completely ignored:

    According to New Testament scholar Bart D. Ehrman, most people who study the historical period of Jesus believe that he did exist and do not write in support of the Christ myth theory.[361] Maurice Casey, theologian and scholar of New Testament and early Christianity, stated that the belief among professors that Jesus existed is generally completely certain. According to Casey, the view that Jesus did not exist is "the view of extremists", "demonstrably false" and "professional scholars generally regard it as having been settled in serious scholarship long ago".
    Graeme Clarke, Emeritus Professor of Classical Ancient History and Archaeology at Australian National University[367] stated in 2008: "Frankly, I know of no ancient historian or biblical historian who would have a twinge of doubt about the existence of a Jesus Christ—the documentary evidence is simply overwhelming"
    Philip Jenkins, Distinguished Professor of History at Baylor University, has written "What you can’t do, though, without venturing into the far swamps of extreme crankery, is to argue that Jesus never existed. The “Christ-Myth Hypothesis” is not scholarship, and is not taken seriously in respectable academic debate. The grounds advanced for the “hypothesis” are worthless. The authors proposing such opinions might be competent, decent, honest individuals, but the views they present are demonstrably wrong....Jesus is better documented and recorded than pretty much any non-elite figure of antiquity."
    Robert Van Voorst has written "Contemporary New Testament scholars have typically viewed (Christ myth) arguments as so weak or bizarre that they relegate them to footnotes, or often ignore them completely [...] The theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question
    Paul L. Maier, former Professor of Ancient History at Western Michigan University and current professor emeritus in the Department of History there has stated "Anyone who uses the argument that Jesus never existed is simply flaunting his ignorance."
    @Subteigh What would you tell these professors?
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 10-28-2019 at 09:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    How do we determine what the minimal level of what qualifies for concepts such as life / consciousness / intelligence? I'm sorry if that question is a little difficult.
    Life:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert...gist)#Research
    Consciousness:
    https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbi...l.pcbi.1003588
    Intelligence [generalized]:
    http://hology.org/

    A self-processing and self-configuring language [SCSPL, Intelligence] substantiated by a minimally-irreducible conceptual system [MICS, Consciousness] that metabolizes, repairs, and replicates [M,R-Diagrams, Life].

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    lol

    1) IEI's and SLE's have psychopathic tendencies and fall into Situational Ethics very easily. "If no one saw it then I don't feel guilty for it." Once the light turns off and there is no Natural Law to judge all behavior then there is nothing to produce conviction for the words they speak.
    Same can be said of SEE and ILI. You must have missed the memo.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    lol
    Same can be said of SEE and ILI. You must have missed the memo.
    Recall that the Superior Parietal area takes over from the Superior Temporal whenever actual examples are replaced by abstract variables such as A, B, or C. I'm suggesting here that Circuits of Thought in a Universal Mind subject to Mental Cause-and-Effect is the proper spatial context for moral reasoning over human beings
    You must have taken it personally to attempt an equivocation. That's exactly the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchback176 View Post
    You must have taken it personally to attempt an equivocation. That's exactly the problem.
    Just stating the obvious.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    @End or anybody knowledge about such things, if somebody says they believe in God and find the jesus myth helpful in the development of their relationship with God, but they kinda pick and choose from the bible don't take things literally.. are they the same as an atheist? Maybe worse, because it's half assed? Or I guess Progressive churches are seen as christianity but a weak and light version, they still get heaven,etc?
    That's kinda where I'm at/am going, and approval isn't needed and I dunno about the whole afterlife thing anyway, but I'm curious.
    Yea there's debate on a lot of stuff.

    The church split into protestant and catholic because there was debates on whether or not traditions should be emphasized.

    The protestant church split into different denominations because there was disagreement on how things should be run (whether a child should be baptized or whether they can eat the bread and dip it in the grape juice, etc lol).

    When you have human intervention and mix them with religion, of course you are gonna have human disagreement.

    There are also different cults in Christianity:

    For example,

    -Mormons, they believe in not only Jesus but another guy and added the book of Mormon in addition to the bible.
    -Jehovah's Witness believe Jesus, but did not believe he is God, just a person
    -etc etc

    It's generally accepted among mainstream Christians that belief in Jesus, (he is God/son of God/holy spirit aka holy trinity) that he died for the sins of the world, and his resurrection is the minimum "to still get heaven" lol

    But yeah, there is disagreement on what parts are literal/figurative

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    To be clear, End. There is an original manuscript from 2006 that drew these conclusions. Consider yourself warned about them.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nye View Post
    Some non-religious documents from Historians during the time of "our Jesus"

    -Jew antiquities by Flavious Josephus
    -Annals of Imperial Rome by Cornelius Tacitus
    -Pliny the Younger
    -Suetonius
    -Etc

    Although modern historians disagree here and there when it comes to what parts of his life were real, it’s safe to say there was a Jesus, who was associated with John the Baptist, and was executed by the Romans.

    If angry atheists that hate Christians are crossing their arms demanding more "concrete evidence," sorry but there's no explanation for why we should expect more evidence than we do have. There's a limited and selective body of evidence for EVERYTHING in ancient history.



    There are three strands of mythicism, including:

    1. The view that there may have been a historical Jesus, who lived in a dimly remembered past, and was fused with the mythological Christ of Paul.
    2. There was never a historical Jesus, only a mythological character, later historicized in the Gospels.
    3. No conclusion can be made about a historical Jesus, and if there was one, nothing can be known about him.

    What do current day historians think about this?

    Current day historians (wikipedia):

    In modern scholarship, the Christ myth theory is a fringe theory, which finds virtually no support from scholars, to the point of being irrelevant and almost completely ignored:











    @Subteigh What would you tell these professors?
    None of the historians you mentioned were contemporary with Jesus' supposed lifespan. Also, there are many accounts before and after the time of "Jesus" (the Christian one) of other Jesuses/Joshuas and other messiahs. I do not doubt that a person named Joshua may have existed who may have inspired the later Christian religion - my view is just that there is no reason to think he absolutely did exist. I suggest you read the page here, as that makes a better case than I could about whether or not Jesus existed:
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eviden...f_Jesus_Christ

    Also, I suggest you read this pdf file written by Richard Carrier:
    www.richardcarrier.info/Historicity_of_Jesus.pdf

    Which talks about the "celestial Jesus" that existed in myth before and after the time of the Christian Jesus, and about how many other religions have and have had earnest followers who swear that their divinities have actually come to Earth at some point. This is a distinct matter from whether the "historical Jesus" actually existed, but the "celestial Jesus" myths and associated prophecies prior to the time of the "historical Jesus" only gives me doubt that the "historical Jesus" figure is also a myth inspired by the "celestial Jesus". Of course, if you believe both aspect are true, you would say that each feature increases the number of known facts about Jesus. But I doubt that most of those who believe that the "historical Jesus" existed would be able to believe the "celestial Jesus" myths without feeling there were many inconsistencies.

    My view is thus that nothing can be meaningfully be determined to be most likely true about the Christian Jesus as a historical figure.

    Sure, you can say that is true of most figures in antiquity - but I have absolutely no problem with saying that there is for example nothing that can be said to be certain about a figure like Pythagoras. I'm not one who has a lot invested in Jesus absolutely having to exist or not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchback176 View Post
    Life:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert...gist)#Research
    Consciousness:
    https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbi...l.pcbi.1003588
    Intelligence [generalized]:
    http://hology.org/

    A self-processing and self-configuring language [SCSPL, Intelligence] substantiated by a minimally-irreducible conceptual system [MICS, Consciousness] that metabolizes, repairs, and replicates [M,R-Diagrams, Life].
    Ultimately, determining what qualifies is a philosophical question, not a scientific one.

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