Overall, Sj-types seem to be far more comfortable being part of the collective than are Nj-types although proportionally, a lot more of the latter seem to rise to the top........Originally Posted by Delilah
a.k.a. I/O
Overall, Sj-types seem to be far more comfortable being part of the collective than are Nj-types although proportionally, a lot more of the latter seem to rise to the top........
a.k.a. I/O
what an unusually vibrant thread.
I think some of the best remarks about Se fitting to a situation as it is and Ne not as much.
Also, just to reiterate it: Se is not "willpower", there are many Se egos who are particularly unable to do anything other than what they already know, or what is the most direct application. There are many people, yes ESI, yes LSI, yes Se doms, who are depressed, who are not effective and aren't CEOs.
Two broad categories I've seen se polr come out
- Poor proportional-reactions when put out of ease
Some have noted here an aversion to asserting their own needs at the expense of others. But I would suggest this is not "Se POLR" itself, so much as it is a byproduct or essentially poor coping mechanism. Undeveloped EIIs tend to believe in a false dichotomy between being open or asserting their own needs and respecting or giving to other people. I would say what Se POLR is at its core is a sense of not easily keeping tabs or track of certain expenditures, or how much energy is in a situation. It's easy for this to be combined with weak Te, so 1d Te and 1d Se together. From my perspective, it can lead to a sense of someone having very poor stability in turning a dial, often erring on too low or too high. Especially in the moment, in a rush of urgency, EII tend to either shut down or overreact if immediately pressured or having to do something - but this is mitigated by how personal it is. Coming to other's defense is not as much a problem, but dealing with accounting for how they are being addressed directly can be. EIIs grow when they spend less time giving people benefit of doubts or feeling a sense of huffy puffy indignation after someone not realizing how 'generous' they've been for a long time.
- Conceptual / constraint aversion
Sometimes EIIs give too much emphasis to finding comfortable rationalizations for "what happened", or what they want to happen being possible. This in and of itself is not a problem. But it becomes problematic when EIIs 'hope' or 'prefer' other people would act like they do, or operate the same way they do. There can be a kind of glorified hiding behind a morally superior worldview that is how EIIs are cowards, in not accepting other people actually are different than they are. They may not want to believe or evaluate someone as choosing, even though there are other ways someone could potentially act. EIIs grow over time in this way by actually directly accounting for the real concrete actions being made in a situation. The more mature an EII is, the less they generally take a martyr role about this. Being a pushover in this way is not a "requirement" for Se POLR, at all.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I don't understand how Se is not will power when it's called volitional sensing.
yea. This is how it manifests mostly for me.
Yes not knowing how to turn the dial, the nuance, the levels in-between, the right amount to use. Se PoLR can also give way to violent fantasies in these exaggerations. I guess that's the nature of the PoLR, huge pendulum swings from "not in use" to "definitely in use".And of course I know what PoLR Se is like, someone busts your balls, at first it's funny haha, then after a few hundred times of you doing nothing someone says to the person' busting your balls "One day he is gonna stab you in your sleep." I've heard that a few times. Except what really happens is I just overreact, sometimes to something small, and create and awkward situation, in reality it looks like I am overreacting to something small but I'm actually reacting to a history of bad treatment that has never been reacted to up until now.
I don't think being a pushover is a requirement, I think it's an easy thing to fall into if you never use Se, like an Se PoLR would until they break and overreact. I see it almost like a symptom. People can tell me all day til the cows come home to idk develop Se, in the ways ppl say it in real life "stand up for yourself" "speak up" and all that, and that advice does not sound like some easily attainable thing like the way they say it, I can't gauge what they are asking me to do properly because it sounds like they are asking me to overreact pretty much, since the PoLR knows no nuance, knows now moderation. And if I did take their advice they would also say "whoa man relax." so damned if you do damned if you don't. When some tells me to stand up for myself the very first thought that goes through my head is " so am I supposed to punch him in the face the next time he does that?" That is the very first thought in my head, not.....whatever the person actually means. I literally think about the most extreme, easy and without a doubt way to stop whatever bad behavior the person is doing to me. Of course I never act on it thought, but it's something that would most definitely work. I guess I think of something their "Se" cannot compete with. If they are knocked unconscious the person cannot "Se" me back.The more mature an EII is, the less they generally take a martyr role about this. Being a pushover in this way is not a "requirement" for Se POLR, at all.
This description is pretty spot on with how Se PoLR can contribute to being a push over
So you sit there and try and convince ppl instead of asserting your will/desire, whatever on them. The manipulation I was talking about earlier.he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do.
I'm pretty sure I've said something similar to that in this thread, something along the lines of "if I yell at someone, what do I do if they yell back? if I fight what do I do if they fight back." This is essentially the struggle when contemplating asserting yourself/your will, there is a fear that the other person can pretty much override your assertion and there's not much you can do about it, You are conscious of your weak "Se" in those moments and don't want to pit it up against another person's Se, because they can just knock over your little Se and this description is a good example of what happens.
words like bitch, pussy, punk are common ways this manifests. You feel helpless because Se does not feel like something you have control over to improve or master in your life, like an permanent struggle and you feel doomed to be defined by those words. My guess is everybodies PoLR feels that way some how, like you are doomed to be defined by the lack of it or something.If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness.
There was only one time in my life where I saw "growth" from the inability to assert myself and tell people what to do thing.
It was when I worked as an instructor at a summer camp. I had to run a class of kids. I was very terrified of some kid talking back to me and not doing what I said, pretty much fearing I would get out "Se'd" by some kid and be humiliated as an adult. The first week I was a pretty nerve racked instructor. But after the fourth week, I magically became assertive, and I could only attribute it to experience and knowing what had to be done whether the kids liked it or not. Only because I was focused on the task that needed to be done, and not the kids respect for me, was I able to assert myself and use the right amount of big boy voice to get them to do what I said without being overly awkward and bossy. So idk, experience and probably some Te objectivity - being more task focused and less personally focused. And tbh I never thought I could be like that. And I definitely never fathomed I could talk to someone like that and they not get angry and yell at me back and actually do what I say.
This is how I experience it.
It's being used to being disadvantaged. As Ne egos we see potential and an out in every situation. Often I know when it happens, and I accept it because I always think I can prevail (if not then that is life and there is nothing I can do about), but sometimes things are rigged against you from the start and you are better off asking for help. I always think everyone can see it (they don't), and somehow someone will do their job and fix my situation. I don't like to complain or nag, I hate it. But it is necessary to speak up to protect your rights. I will mention it once or twice, but it's not enough, you have to fight to be recognized. When I do speak up, it's always feels late. Or that I'm blaming everyone else but me when I have exhausted all my options. Everyone feels betrayed.
I have actually left a couple of jobs when it reached to a point that I had to fight for my right to stay. I could have stayed if I tried. I just never feel like fighting for something that bad. It makes me look desperate and I hate it. Because in reality I always have a plan B. I thought "if they don't see my worth I'm better off elsewhere." Funnily enough, I always find something better and they always come back and say "we wish you stayed, you are brilliant." But when I was on board I never felt appreciated. I had to prove my worth every day, when things are rigged against me. Which is just not something I'm willing to do constantly. It's stressful.
I don't think that is a healthy way of handling things however, especially if you have any hope of working in management or a high paying job. The competition is fierce. Your talent alone won't carry you. You will need an advocate or a favour from someone to be recognized. That is the reality of it. I'm learning slowly to accept help and ask for it (in time), but it's not easy. I always want to do things on my own merit. It's just easier for me to say "Fuck you, next."
Tl;dr: I'm not selfish enough.
I resonate with this completely. Thank you for sharing and encouraging us!
Message in title.
It can, for me at least
All of what is already out there on Se PoLR (people can access and read) so I would rather not repeat that...
but I do think a part of it is the delicacy, subtlety and 'hooked in' nature of Fi (at least in EII) that not just doesn't want to be pushy or aggressive in any way (which is Se PoLR - yes I am soemwhat simplofying it) but relies on those said strengths to the degree we might assume others can see/detect/or operate on similar values, even if it might not be entirely realized
but ofc 'the world doesn't necessarily operate that way' (as some might say)
Any decision is based on all functions. To do or not do something.
The most influencing on decisions are 1-2, but not weak nonvalued.
So the most common reason for EII with base Fi to do not talk would be a wish to keep/imrove pleasant emotions own and of other human or just to follow own wish.
I know an EII who is the only person around who actively scolds one person in my group for acting abusive. She doesn't do it all the time, she just loses her mind on him every once in a while, talking about how people don't deserve that treatment. The polr function isn't an unused function. It's used under stress when no one else is covering, and applied incorrectly. Someone with good se would return the same amount of force or maybe a little more, in an effort to get the person under control without losing their temper. The first example is similar to the way I use se. I hate aggressive environments because I'm scared people are abusing me and I might lose my temper on them. Or I might just cave into their direction even when I know that what I want to do is different.
Edited: clarity
I don't think it holds EIIs back from taking action as much as it can hold and EII back from initiating swift, decisive action, especially when the stakes are high and conflict is inevitable.
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