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Thread: Which type has it best in terms of ITR?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    @Rune, why would displaying warmth at church be contradictory to integrity and possibly even duplicitous?
    I guess I expect people to be more serious at church because it's a serious subject matter. It kind of baffles me how someone could be overly light hearted in an environment where we must be mindful of sins and sacrifices.

    I mean, I guess you could make an argument that they *should* be warm in an environment where inclusion is necessary. That's just not where my instincts lie.
    Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 03-22-2022 at 12:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    This aligns with my experiences.

    It utterly confuses me how someone could live like this. How is it possible that someone sacrifices their own integrity to the point where their presentation is out of synch with their true emotions? It seems like a lose-lose situation when I don't care to have my mood lifted, because they have to live with my state of neutrality while I have to live with their true unhappiness. At worst, when they try to lift my spirits, it can feel like they're trying to take advantage of me.

    It just convinces me more that my dual is SEE, a type that typically values integrity and loyalty. I would rather someone communicate their unhappiness upfront than try to lift my spirits.
    I hear ya.

    From what I've heard Fe is about empathizing properly. It may not be about smiling at the person but maybe a tap on their shoulder or maybe a wave of the hand. When Fe types believe they can fix other people's problems through their standard thought & Fe procedures, that might be when Fi types raise their proverbial eyebrow

    Fe types would probably be more silently unhappy when they define their identity by how others treat them but it is the introverted functions that are designed to help with issues such as those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    I hear ya.

    From what I've heard Fe is about empathizing properly. It may not be about smiling at the person but maybe a tap on their shoulder or maybe a wave of the hand. When Fe types believe they can fix other people's problems through their standard thought & Fe procedures, that might be when Fi types raise their proverbial eyebrow

    Fe types would probably be more silently unhappy when they define their identity by how others treat them but it is the introverted functions that are designed to help with issues such as those.
    Bolded.
    The worse part of this is when a bunch of Fe's are togetger and they unsuccessfully do that to one other. Everyone then feels misunderstood, unappreciated, exhausted.
    They look like they are all grinding at others while being ground at by others.
    Looks like a weird bloody butchery.

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    How about SO/SX types? I think that makes more sense rather than a socionics type, because all ITR's are technically created mostly equally.

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    Hard to say. I get along with ILIs but it gets boring when they go too much into Ni or Se or nerd out to the exclusion of the immediate environment.

    I tend to get on well with Ne leads. ILEs like to befriend me and they can be entertaining for the most part until they go on and on about something I find boring like video games (I like playing them.I don't like talking about them. Same with tv shows and anime. I enjoy them but not talking too much about it unless watching it right then with someone...maybe because I tend to have the out of sight out of mind problem).

    SLEs are a hit or miss. My wife's oldest niece is SLE and we get on pretty well. Sometimes it gets boring because of my lack of Fe and I don't know how to provide it without expending a shitton of energy.

    I don't know many IEEs so it's hard to say but I generally felt comfortable with the ones I've known like my piano teacher (RIP). He was a gem of a human being. He tried calling me when he was dying but I never managed to get a hold of him. This is one of my few regrets.

    I can see my wife as IEE but like myself, she is very, very hard to pin down. She came from a poor background so always worked physically demanding jobs. I came from a well off background and aside from working retail for a little bit, I've been more academic.
    At the same time, she is always perceptive of symbolism and future developments and has a strong 6th sense and understanding of other people whereas I'm more obtuse and avoid reading into things without getting the facts. She is always losing things too and has poor sense of direction so I'm typically the item locator and GPS because I have excellent spatial awareness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    Bolded.
    The worse part of this is when a bunch of Fe's are togetger and they unsuccessfully do that to one other. Everyone then feels misunderstood, unappreciated, exhausted.
    They look like they are all grinding at others while being ground at by others.
    Looks like a weird bloody butchery.
    Fe egos tend to engage in emotional sharing but that emotional sharing is not always beneficial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    Fe egos tend to engage in emotional sharing but that emotional sharing is not always beneficial.
    I don't even know if I'd call what I saw "emotional sharing" as this term doesn't ring a bell in the context for me.
    It was like a bunch of people were trying, and failing, to impose standards because they were all trying to. It was aggressive in its own subdued way, all under smiles and niceties. Tense smiles and niceties meant as expectations.

    I guess similar happens with a bunch of any type, but I've yet to see it at the scale I've seen with Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shazaam View Post
    Deltas have it the best and Betas have it the worst probably.
    I agree and I do think probably IEE has it best - they tend to get along with most people. Deltas and Betas don't even really conflict that much with each other - Gammas and Alphas conflict a lot more but Betas are the most likely to not get along with other people in the same quadra. SLE-IEI duality occurs sometimes but seems more difficult to establish in a healthy way than other dual pairs. The other Se valuing ones are similar.

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    SLE-IEI duality occurs sometimes but seems more difficult to establish in a healthy way than other dual pairs. The other Se valuing ones are similar.
    ESI-LIE and SEE-ILI duality goes in good mood generally. For SEE-ILI the matter is more about the SEE actually noticing the ILI, and ESI-LIE is all about the ESI letting the LIE into their inner circle. But even without overcoming these duality difficulties, the relationship looks still more wholesome to me than some of the SLE-IEI pestering I have seen. The SLE-IEI duality looks "rough" to say the least.
    Last edited by Armitage; 03-25-2022 at 08:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    ESI-LIE and SEE-ILI duality goes in good mood generally. For SEE-ILI the matter is more about the SEE actually noticing the ILI, and ESI-LIE is all about the ESI letting the LIE into their inner circle. But even without overcoming these duality difficulties, the relationship looks still more wholesome to me than some of the SLE-IEI pestering I have seen. The SLE-IEI duality looks "rough" to say the least.
    I think the irrational beta duality is harder to make work than the gamma one. IEIs do not seem to accept SLEs as their dual easily as ILIs do with SEEs.

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    Deltas have it best but EIIs are most prone to depression? Interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    I guess I expect people to be more serious at church because it's a serious subject matter. It kind of baffles me how someone could be overly light hearted in an environment where we must be mindful of sins and sacrifices.

    I mean, I guess you could make an argument that they *should* be warm in an environment where inclusion is necessary. That's just not where my instincts lie.
    If you're not already Catholic are you sure you ought not convert to Catholicism? Because I get that and yet it seems to get perfectly compensated for in my congregation. The solemnity of the sacraments is there and yet there is also warmth and joy. The holy host is to be venerated and it is. One's prayer life is of utmost importance and the multiple priests (we are a lucky congregation indeed be large enough to have several to attend to us lay folks) stress this most every chance they get and I am glad they do so.

    I must once more point to attachment issues on this one. God, in the flesh (if one accepts Christian theology as true), loves you so much that although his perfect justice demands he literally delete existence to make it all right he'd rather die for your sins against his infinite majesty instead. To put it into terms the finite mind would understand, your parents could know in advance that bringing you into the world would spell their deaths. They'd both die so that you could experience life.

    Would you be a villain or a hero? Would you save the world from certain destruction or condemn it to a most horrible oblivion? Would you be virtuous or vicious? They knew not the answers to those most pertinent of questions. Yet they decided to sacrifice themselves for but your single life anyway. If you somehow came to know of that how could you not fall on your knees and praise them for that most selfless of sacrifices?

    Now that I think on it this may be a key difference between ILI's. The subtypes are likely more theologically inclined and the subtypes tend to be fedora tipping atheists. I'd rather like to debate the latter as I bet I could get him to confess if he/she wasn't a full on Death Cultist .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    ESI-LIE and SEE-ILI duality goes in good mood generally. For SEE-ILI the matter is more about the SEE actually noticing the ILI, and ESI-LIE is all about the ESI letting the LIE into their inner circle. But even without overcoming these duality difficulties, the relationship looks still more wholesome to me than some of the SLE-IEI pestering I have seen. The SLE-IEI duality looks "rough" to say the least.
    Well I think that some prominent socionic theorists put us Gamma "Victim" types as "Comical" and the Beta equivalents as "Tragic" as it were thus your evaluation would play out.

    I'm an admitted weeb and even "Nagatoro-San" isn't really all that cruel if you look closely. It's closer to an ideal (in a sense) gamma romance over a Beta romance.

    Yeah, they play "rough" from our point of view. Beta's take things a bit "too far" for our own tastes. Not that we can't compensate, but I mean holy hell, shit tests don't need to go that far damnit!

    I guess it's how and interact with how we're familiar with and . Flipping the / axis leads to... shit we Gamma's might not exactly get on board with...
    Last edited by End; 03-27-2022 at 04:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    If you're not already Catholic are you sure you ought not convert to Catholicism? Because I get that and yet it seems to get perfectly compensated for in my congregation. The solemnity of the sacraments is there and yet there is also warmth and joy. The holy host is to be venerated and it is. One's prayer life is of utmost importance and the multiple priests (we are a lucky congregation indeed be large enough to have several to attend to us lay folks) stress this most every chance they get and I am glad they do so.<br>
    <br>
    I must once more point to attachment issues on this one. God, in the flesh (if one accepts Christian theology as true), loves you so much that although his perfect justice demands he literally delete existence to make it all right he'd rather die for your sins against his infinite majesty instead. To put it into terms the finite mind would understand, your parents could know in advance that bringing you into the world would spell their deaths. They'd both die so that you could experience life.<br>
    <br>
    Would you be a villain or a hero? Would you save the world from certain destruction or condemn it to a most horrible oblivion? Would you be virtuous or vicious? They knew not the answers to those most pertinent of questions. Yet they decided to sacrifice themselves for but your single life anyway. If you somehow came to know of that how could you not fall on your knees and praise them for that most selfless of sacrifices?<br>
    <br>
    Now that I think on it this may be a key difference between ILI's. The <img src="images/smilies/Ni.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Introverted Intuition" smilieid="71" class="inlineimg"> subtypes are likely more theologically inclined and the <img src="images/smilies/Te.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Extroverted Logic" smilieid="73" class="inlineimg"> subtypes tend to be fedora tipping atheists. I'd rather like to debate the latter as I bet I could get him to confess if he/she wasn't a full on Death Cultist <img src="images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg">.
    I haven't been through confirmation, nor have I been to confession, but I attend mass as I see Catholicism as the best form of organized spiritual expression there is. I'm still learning about the confirmation process. My congregation does a yearly confirmation for any who wish to join.

    I see your angle regarding attachment issues. My parents are "non denominational" evangelicals, so there was a lot of friction growing up because I always believed in the scientific method and wished to reconcile science with spirituality. The minute I heard that a Catholic priest conceived of the Big Bang Theory, I knew there was something to Catholicism. It just took me a long time to reconcile the viewpoints, and I even had to take a detour into Buddhism before I could detach from my preconceptions and see spiritual dimensions apart from the logical positivist vs. sola scriptura dialogue. There are shades of truth among various spiritual traditions.

    And yeah I'm pretty sure I'm Ni subtype.

    The only thing I miss about being non denominational was that there were Bible studies and numerous opportunities to connect with peers. I'm still looking for something like that in the Catholic tradition; it seems to me that Catholicism is more about reverence than it is about sharing thoughts. Still, I enjoy listening to officials like Fulton Sheen (IEI?) and Robert Barron. I especially enjoy Robert Barron's sermons and thoughts because he has an intellectual depth and breadth that shines beyond pretty much any contemporary secular thinker there is. I think he's probably LIE. Had he debated Zizek (EIE) instead of Peterson (ILI), I think he would have come out the victor.
    Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 03-27-2022 at 05:45 AM.

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    I read somewhere that Jordan Peterson is typed as a LIE himself, but I don't know the veracity of this claim.
    Anyway, if Robbert Barron indeed is a LIE, than it would not surprise me that in a debate he would defeat an EIE. But I'm not that convinced that Zizek is an EIE, though, because I thought of him as a Ti-Alpha instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I read somewhere that Jordan Peterson is typed as a LIE himself, but I don't know the veracity of this claim.
    Anyway, if Robbert Barron indeed is a LIE, than it would not surprise me that in a debate he would defeat an EIE. But I'm not that convinced that Zizek is an EIE, though, because I thought of him as a Ti-Alpha instead.
    Zizek reeks of Dialectical Algorithmic cognition. That's like all he does. He follows in the same footsteps of Marx (EIE) and Hegel (EIE).

    I also thought he was ILE, but upon further inspection, you can tell that he naturally prefers to think dialectically.

    I'd really like to see some sources regarding Peterson. I think he also thinks dialectically, though he doesn't make a point of it like Zizek does. The whole "clean your room" thing is role Si. Can you imagine an LIE doing that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    The whole "clean your room" thing is role Si. Can you imagine an LIE doing that?
    Me: Looks at room.

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    Zizek is about as EIE as it gets, imo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    Me: Looks at room.
    Eh, I'll get around to it. LSE mum is more than a bit miffed bit in this regard, but given time I do indeed address the issue. One more bonus about being ILI. We don't exactly got a bunch of frivolous shit that needs cleaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardware Punk View Post
    Zizek is about as EIE as it gets, imo.
    Perhaps. He does have a rather slovenly appearance to his detriment. dominants may not care all that much about that but it is a factor for those who are not and double for those who do not suffer from attachment issues. How one looks factors little into how true one's statements are but it certainly does not hurt to have a "Bruce Lee bod" as you step up upon your soapbox as it were.

    The man would do very well to look up the works of the Venerable Fulton Sheen. Pretty sure he too was an EIE but he knew how to work with it. He certainly wasn't very full of himself and didn't let his often demonstrably superior intelligence go to his head...

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    I'm always messy, my whole life, but it's more like, "stuff out of order to you guys, but I know where everything is and why it's where it is, as long as it's entirely mine." I had less stuff when I was younger so it wasn't so hard to keep things inline. Getting older, accumulation! sets in and that's when it looks bad to others, many interests, and at least it's been me in charge for quite awhile now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    ESI-LIE and SEE-ILI duality goes in good mood generally. For SEE-ILI the matter is more about the SEE actually noticing the ILI, and ESI-LIE is all about the ESI letting the LIE into their inner circle. But even without overcoming these duality difficulties, the relationship looks still more wholesome to me than some of the SLE-IEI pestering I have seen. The SLE-IEI duality looks "rough" to say the least.
    "good mood" and "wholesome" are not really words I'd use to describe Gammas...but I do think they are less tumultuous than the Beta pairs generally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    "good mood" and "wholesome" are not really words I'd use to describe Gammas...but I do think they are less tumultuous than the Beta pairs generally.
    Lol, I was going to object to this, but when I thought about it, @Exodus, you're actually right.

    I'd say that the Gamma NTs are cautiously optimistic but mercenary, and the Gamma SFs are happy but punitive. If we differ from Betas in any way, it's probably in an inclination to place profit over pride and contracts over contention.

    Now all I have to do is figure out why Gamma NTs are so often thought of as raptors.
    I was browsing through photos of Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine, and a shockingly large number of them VI as LIEs. It seems like Gamma NTs like wars, but they suck at living through them.

    http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/content/island-types-42
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-28-2022 at 04:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'd say that the Gamma NTs are cautiously optimistic but mercenary, and the Gamma SFs are happy but punitive. If we differ from Betas in any way, it's probably in an inclination to place profit over pride and contracts over contention.
    Haha, definitely accurate for us NTs, but in what way are our SFs punitive to us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I was browsing through photos of Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine, and a shockingly large number of them VI as LIEs. It seems like Gamma NTs like wars, but they suck at living through them.
    ILI-Te's too, though. I know one Russian ILI-Te combat engineer. He previously studied computer science, which overlaps in content with my statistics program. Eventually he had to do conscription, because every Russian has to serve a period in the army. He was called to Afghanistan. After his conscription period finished he returned home to Russia and remained in the army, instead of returning to computer science. In comparison he is more interested in the army, because there's more action to it than to programming. He trained as a combat engineer, because his intelligence is his defining characteristic. He also loves crafting things. As a young boy already did he craft rather beautiful Christmas decorations to hang in the Christmas tree.

    I only wish that he used his talents for good instead of for evil. When he told me that he had switched to rocket engineering instead of going back to computer science, I thought that he meant space rockets used for transporting satellites, I thought that pretty cool. Only a few months before the Ukrainian War broke out did I learn that these are not scientific rockets, but missiles... It caused me a crisis of conscience to see his missiles used against the Ukrainian people. It made literally nauseated me. After pondering it all I messaged him and we texted for several hours about this whole war, which he fortunately doesn't agree with either: "I joined the army to fight terrorists in Afghanistan, to defend my country, but not to fight this Brother War."
    Last edited by Armitage; 03-28-2022 at 10:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy Grandpa View Post
    Have you looked into Cursillo (it's specifically Catholic) retreats? My parents used to lead some of the retreats. There are local chapters around the US and internationally.

    All the people I know who have gone through similar retreats get something out of it and tend to find like-minded people to be friends with.

    When there wasn't a Bible study at the church, my parents decided to start a mini Bible study of their own with the priest and some of their close church friends.
    Thanks! I haven't heard of Cursillo until now but this is incredibly helpful.

    Maybe I can find SEE there.

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    How is it hard for ESI to except LIE? I know nothing about it, all I know is my ESI ex essentially told me she needs someone to be "in control" like driving and making plans and crap and I literally had to tell her "I can't be your dad.", of course she said she doesn't need a dad but she was openly admitting that she doesn't have her life under control and she needs help with that, I didn't know about socionics at the time but could still feel the Te pressure put on my shoulders that I wanted nothing to do with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    How is it hard for ESI to except LIE? I know nothing about it, all I know is my ESI ex essentially told me she needs someone to be "in control" like driving and making plans and crap and I literally had to tell her "I can't be your dad.", of course she said she doesn't need a dad but she was openly admitting that she doesn't have her life under control and she needs help with that, I didn't know about socionics at the time but could still feel the Te pressure put on my shoulders that I wanted nothing to do with.

    Every female ESI that I've gotten close to has told me that they need help with certain things. Te things.

    Male ESIs don't say this outright, but instead just obliquely seek out my company. For conversation, for discussions about anything. The males will sometimes say something in an assertive tone of voice, but then will stop and listen. As if they are actually asking what I think about something and desperately need to know, but cannot bring themselves to ask outright for advice.

    When your main talent is needed, it is easy to supply it.

    In my opinion, the ESIs are not looking for a dad, nor are they looking for someone to tell them what to do. They just want some advice from someone who knows what they are talking about.

    Strat wrote that an ESI is the only type which can supply an LIE with exactly what they need and how they need it. I'd say that works both ways. LIEs are not out to be an ESI's daddy, nor are they out to tell the ESI what to do or think, but rather we take the course of offering advice and opening doors, and the ESI then has to decide for themselves what they want to do.

    https://imgur.com/a/lX52rqR
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-02-2022 at 03:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    @Rune, why would displaying warmth at church be contradictory to integrity and possibly even duplicitous?
    I agree with @Rune, only because I've been in the situation and with an ILI also. Me and ILI went to to check out a church (she also knew about typology), The church we visited was filled with older folk and we were this young visiting couple, after service people greeted us and you could tell all their "extra nice" behavior seemed to have the agenda of keeping us visiting their church, gaining new members, wanting to butter us up so we stick around, nothing more really, they don't know us so why are they being sooooo nice. The only person I didn't get that sense from was a guy who just seemed to have his own self contained excitement, he came up to us said hi in a jolly voice and just seemed genuinely happy, like he was smiling in the belly and not just the face, and another guy actually said "Hey, come back, we need some new faces around here" and he was a relief too because at least he was honest, but the rest were like "HI! WHERE ARE YOU FROM?! OMG THAT'S GREAT MY SON LIVES OUT THERE!"

    The ILI was up for developing her Fe for some reason and dealt really well with all that actually, I'm Fi ignoring so I was completely uninterested, and I couldn't help but see this hidden agenda behind it all, being extra nice to a bunch of people you don't know is suspicious, especially if it benefits you somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Every female ESI that I've gotten close to has told me that they need help with certain things. Te things.

    Male ESIs don't say this outright, but instead just obliquely seek out my company. For conversation, for discussions about anything. The males will sometimes say something in an assertive tone of voice, but then will stop and listen. As if they are actually asking what I think about something and desperately need to know, but cannot bring themselves to ask outright for advice.

    When your main talent is needed, it is easy to supply it.

    In my opinion, the ESIs are not looking for a dad, nor are they looking for someone to tell them what to do. They just want some advice from someone who knows what they are talking about.
    And this doesn't lead to anything more with girl ESIs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    And this doesn't lead to anything more with girl ESIs?
    What I've experienced is that there are basically two windows of opportunity with an ESI.

    One opens immediately. She sees you, she likes you, she wants to fuck. You're either up for that or not.
    This has worked best for me when they were young and I was drunk.

    https://imgur.com/a/IljHlTO

    The next opportunity happens after months of exposure. You hang out with the ESI forever, they gradually start to trust you just a teenie tiny bit (1-3%), and then one day you see them and they're horny. Sex ensues. It might not happen again for a while. ESIs can be pretty self-centered. See the Gamma SF "uncovered" article.

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/gammasf.html

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Every female ESI that I've gotten close to has told me that they need help with certain things. Te things.

    Male ESIs don't say this outright, but instead just obliquely seek out my company. For conversation, for discussions about anything. The males will sometimes say something in an assertive tone of voice, but then will stop and listen. As if they are actually asking what I think about something and desperately need to know, but cannot bring themselves to ask outright for advice.

    When your main talent is needed, it is easy to supply it.

    In my opinion, the ESIs are not looking for a dad, nor are they looking for someone to tell them what to do. They just want some advice from someone who knows what they are talking about.

    Strat wrote that an ESI is the only type which can supply an LIE with exactly what they need and how they need it. I'd say that works both ways. LIEs are not out to be an ESI's daddy, nor are they out to tell the ESI what to do or think, but rather we take the course of offering advice and opening doors, and the ESI then has to decide for themselves what they want to do.

    https://imgur.com/a/lX52rqR
    My ESI-Se cycling friend always comes up with one or another question, when at the historical museum he asked me if Osiris was already a god before he was killed by Seth, when discussing the COVID pandemic he asked me what the percentage of asymptomatic COVID patients is amongst the youth, and when we went to Death on the Nile he asked me if "I think." is pronounced Je prendre. in French, but that means to take, whereas the correct translation is Je pense. I find it funny, because he stimulates me to dust off my knowledge and to sometimes look things up, so we both learn from it.
    Though he is quite resistant to accepting advice. He repeatedly flagged to me that he wanted to learn something new through which he would meet new people and I recommended him to start learning the Dutch language, so he can start socializing with the natives. I sent him the free introduction course of the university. It took him a while to ponder of it, in order to commit. The same I see now recurring that he wants to become more efficient at studying, so I advised him to start taking notes. But then he responded that he believes that everyone has their own individual method of studying. I'll see how long it takes him to make up his mind to start taking notes, because I know that he eventually will, as he has been mentioning his inefficient study methods too frequently already.

    I, on the other hand, know to value his advice from the start. Sometimes it takes me a little longer to implement it, but I always do. When the French date returned I eventually broke up with the guy permanently this time around. Although many people had advised me to do so, including here on the forum, I still was under the guy's spell. It took my ESI-Se friend to finally shake me out of it.
    He also has recommended me to decrease the number of people that I'm trying to keep in touch with, in order to start focusing on quality instead of quantity. I'm a natural networker, so it has always come easy to me to keep in touch with many pals, but it indeed comes at the cost of not developing deeper Fi friendships. And I'm going to start hitting the Gym again after the Easter break based on his recommendations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ESIs can be pretty self-centered. See the Gamma SF "uncovered" article. http://www.socionics.com/articles/gammasf.html
    I sure hope that you don't actually take that exaggerated nonsense seriously, right?
    Last edited by Armitage; 04-02-2022 at 08:18 PM.

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    Will we start over, or circle the drain crazymaisy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    My ESI-Se cycling friend always comes up with one or another question, when at the historical museum he asked me if Osiris was already a god before he was killed by Seth, when discussing the COVID pandemic he asked me what the percentage of asymptomatic COVID patients is amongst the youth, and when we went to Death on the Nile he asked me if "I think." is pronounced Je prendre. in French, but that means to take, whereas the correct translation is Je pense. I find it funny, because he stimulates me to dust off my knowledge and to sometimes look things up, so we both learn from it.
    Though he is quite resistant to accepting advice. He repeatedly flagged to me that he wanted to learn something new through which he would meet new people and I recommended him to start learning the Dutch language, so he can start socializing with the natives. I sent him the free introduction course of the university. It took him a while to ponder of it, in order to commit. The same applied to when I recommend him to get himself a sportswatch. He first didn't want to know anything about it, because even with the discount it was overpriced in his opinion and he could manage his training on his own, but two months later he started asking me more about mine. The same I see now recurring that he wants to become more efficient at studying, so I advised him to start taking notes. But then he responded that he believes that everyone has their own individual method of studying. I'll see how long it takes him to make up his mind to start taking notes, because I know that he eventually will, as he has been mentioning his inefficient study methods to frequently already.

    I, on the other hand, know to value his advice from the start. Sometimes it takes me a little longer to implement it, but I always do. When the French date returned I eventually broke up with the guy permanently this time around. Although many people had advised me to do so, including here on the forum, I still was under the guy's spell. It took my ESI-Se friend to finally shake me out of it.
    He also has recommended me to decrease the number of people that I'm trying to keep in touch with, in order to start focusing on quality instead of quantity. I'm a natural networker, so it has always come easy to me to keep in touch with many pals, but it indeed comes at the cost of not developing deeper Fi friendships. And I'm going to start hitting the Gym again after the Easter break based on his recommendations.
    This reminds me of my SEE, he'll get information from me, won't agree, and maybe it comes up in another conversation in the next few weeks, still doesn't agree, then a few months later, totally agrees, and often thinks he came up with it himself. Time and again this happens with so many different topics, things to do, something to buy, etc.

    Anything he proposes I deal with pretty quick, like you were saying.

    I respond/accept: say "yes" or "no" or do whatever is an appropriate reaction.

    He hears/rejects/hears/rejects/hears/rejects/"HEY I just thought of something...I/we/you can/could/will" blahblahblah
    Maisy
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    As one of the many ones of me.
    As truth is gathered, I rearrange,
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    Perpetual change"


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  33. #73
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    @crazymaisy, at least my ESI-Se cycling friend gives credits where credits are due.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    My ESI-Se cycling friend always comes up with one or another question, when at the historical museum he asked me if Osiris was already a god before he was killed by Seth, when discussing the COVID pandemic he asked me what the percentage of asymptomatic COVID patients is amongst the youth, and when we went to Death on the Nile he asked me if "I think." is pronounced Je prendre. in French, but that means to take, whereas the correct translation is Je pense. I find it funny, because he stimulates me to dust off my knowledge and to sometimes look things up, so we both learn from it.
    Te is facts. Individual facts. At it's essence, it is the assignment of names to items, and Te can flexibly reorganize the names to suit the situation. Your ESI cycling friend is seeking and accepting FACTS from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    Though he is quite resistant to accepting advice.
    He does Se better than you. Why would he need you to TELL him what to do? You supply the Te facts, he decides what he wants to Se do.

    Have you ever wondered why you are so direct and open to others regarding sharing knowledge (which ESI's love, because your honesty disarms their natural suspicion), but if you want to lie or mislead in order to push someone towards a solution that YOU want, you do it by omitting information?
    This is why. ESIs are why.
    You aren't going to be able to force an ESI to go anywhere, but you can tell them that your future home is an island paradise. Just omit telling them about the volcano and the cannibals. You can wing than when you get there, and by then, they have already committed faithfully and will, in Strat's words, "pull the plow".

    People criticize Stratiyevskaya for her critical views on LIEs but I, personally, think that she sees much more clearly than her critics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    He repeatedly flagged to me that he wanted to learn something new through which he would meet new people and I recommended him to start learning the Dutch language, so he can start socializing with the natives. I sent him the free introduction course of the university. It took him a while to ponder of it, in order to commit. The same I see now recurring that he wants to become more efficient at studying, so I advised him to start taking notes. But then he responded that he believes that everyone has their own individual method of studying. I'll see how long it takes him to make up his mind to start taking notes, because I know that he eventually will, as he has been mentioning his inefficient study methods to frequently already.
    Maybe he will implement your advice, maybe he won't. Keep track to be sure of your facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I, on the other hand, know to value his advice from the start. Sometimes it takes me a little longer to implement it, but I always do. When the French date returned I eventually broke up with the guy permanently this time around. Although many people had advised me to do so, including here on the forum, I still was under the guy's spell. It took my ESI-Se friend to finally shake me out of it.

    He also has recommended me to decrease the number of people that I'm trying to keep in touch with, in order to start focusing on quality instead of quantity.
    How well are you accepting his advice? Just as well as he's accepting yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I'm a natural networker, so it has always come easy to me to keep in touch with many pals, but it indeed comes at the cost of not developing deeper Fi friendships. And I'm going to start hitting the Gym again after the Easter break based on his recommendations.
    Him asking you to be more like him is like you asking him to be more like you. You guys aren't meant to be the same person, you are meant to supply the wind under the other's wings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I sure hope that you don't actually take that exaggerated nonsense seriously, right?
    Yes, I absolutely take seriously that exaggerated nonsense. First, because all exaggerations work because there is some foundation of truth to them, and second, because I've experienced their Se selfishness wrt sex, and their Sp-selfishness wrt material things, many times.

    That "uncovered" article wasn't describing the most healthy, altruistic, "What's mine is yours and what's yours is mine, We're in this as equal partners, I'll go to the ends of the Earth for you" kind of relationship that we strive for. Instead, in my opinion, it was describing an ESI at about the 7/10 health level. But it absolutely was describing ESIs.

    The fact that I really like, and get along with, and on some level need, ESIs, doesn't blind me anymore to their fundamental operating properties. It can be easy to overlook a characteristic when it's working to your advantage (as it often does between Duals), but you should still see the difference between what is real and what you wish for.

    Ni-valuers have to be really careful about their (our) natural tendency to gift-wrap an elephant. It is easier to see our imaginations and our wishes than it is to see reality.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-02-2022 at 02:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazymaisy View Post
    This reminds me of my SEE, he'll get information from me, won't agree, and maybe it comes up in another conversation in the next few weeks, still doesn't agree, then a few months later, totally agrees, and often thinks he came up with it himself. Time and again this happens with so many different topics, things to do, something to buy, etc.

    Anything he proposes I deal with pretty quick, like you were saying.

    I respond/accept: say "yes" or "no" or do whatever is an appropriate reaction.

    He hears/rejects/hears/rejects/hears/rejects/"HEY I just thought of something...I/we/you can/could/will" blahblahblah
    my SEE friend does the same. Once we went clothes shopping and I found a beautiful velvet piece. She’ll never give me credit for finding it. Same goes for music, for introducing her to new people (!!!) she can’t accept that I’m better than her in some areas of life so she’ll just erase that memory and pretend she discovered it herself.
    ترفرف كالأجنحة غير المنظورة حول رأسي

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibreen View Post
    my SEE friend does the same. Once we went clothes shopping and I found a beautiful velvet piece. She’ll never give me credit for finding it. Same goes for music, for introducing her to new people (!!!) she can’t accept that I’m better than her in some areas of life so she’ll just erase that memory and pretend she discovered it herself.
    Essentially, SEEs do not want to share the stage with anyone. I really like SEEs, but we both want to be the main focus of attention. This is why my relationships with SEEs are usually very brief.

    And why the Dual to the SEE is the very retreating ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I agree with @Rune, only because I've been in the situation and with an ILI also. Me and ILI went to to check out a church (she also knew about typology), The church we visited was filled with older folk and we were this young visiting couple, after service people greeted us and you could tell all their "extra nice" behavior seemed to have the agenda of keeping us visiting their church, gaining new members, wanting to butter us up so we stick around, nothing more really, they don't know us so why are they being sooooo nice. The only person I didn't get that sense from was a guy who just seemed to have his own self contained excitement, he came up to us said hi in a jolly voice and just seemed genuinely happy, like he was smiling in the belly and not just the face, and another guy actually said "Hey, come back, we need some new faces around here" and he was a relief too because at least he was honest, but the rest were like "HI! WHERE ARE YOU FROM?! OMG THAT'S GREAT MY SON LIVES OUT THERE!"

    The ILI was up for developing her Fe for some reason and dealt really well with all that actually, I'm Fi ignoring so I was completely uninterested, and I couldn't help but see this hidden agenda behind it all, being extra nice to a bunch of people you don't know is suspicious, especially if it benefits you somehow.
    Yeah that's exactly how my old church was. It's a mix off repression and probably a lot of Fe valuers. But mostly repression.

    The Catholic "Peace be with you." is good enough for me.

  38. #78
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Te is facts. Individual facts. At it's essence, it is the assignment of names to items, and Te can flexibly reorganize the names to suit the situation. Your ESI cycling friend is seeking and accepting FACTS from you.
    I know and I happily indulge him. He also asks me to decide on the activity we do, the film we see, and the restaurant we eat at. So far he has always complimented me on my taste in each of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    He does Se better than you. Why would he need you to TELL him what to do? You supply the Te facts, he decides what he wants to Se do.
    Because he repeatedly mentioned his studying method being inefficient, that he loses time on it, and that others probably do it faster. I tried to help him optimize it by at least making notes, because writing notes by hand is one of the most important methods to get the information to stick within your brain. By using your motor skills you combine your visual sketchpad or auditory loop through which you obtained the information with your motoric memory. Moreover, because writing is slower than typing, you will be repeating the message in your mind as long as you are writing the note. It is not as much about creating a summary, because you could as easily use the lecture slides for that or buy one, but it is about combining different forms of memory and repetition to make the knowledge stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Have you ever wondered why you are so direct and open to others regarding sharing knowledge (which ESI's love, because your honesty disarms their natural suspicion),
    Yes, for sure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    but if you want to lie or mislead in order to push someone towards a solution that YOU want, you do it by omitting information?
    So far in my life the decisions I wanted were based on the facts, so I could simply present the facts to support my case without any need for omission really. Perhaps later in my career this will play a larger role than it does for me presently as a student.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    People criticize Stratiyevskaya for her critical views on LIEs but I, personally, think that she sees much more clearly than her critics.
    She provided quite the doomsday scenario, but I believe that she had the intention to warn us for the worst, so we would not make these mistakes ourselves and lead a better life. Forewarned is forearmed, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Maybe he will implement your advice, maybe he won't. Keep track to be sure of your facts.
    The trend is that he does after some time of deliberation. I will not mention it again for some time, because I don't want to pressure him and if I did it would only backfire at me. I think that he will continue his current way for a while longer, to then try out my notekeeping method and discover that it actually does work better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    How well are you accepting his advice? Just as well as he's accepting yours.
    I have literally turned around my entire schedule for the next two months of the upcoming study bloc after he implored me to work out more and network less, because deep down I know him to be right. People before him, ranging from my LSI-TI study coach to my LIE programming teacher have all urged me to lessen my frequent meet ups with all my different pals, but only my ESI-Se cycling friend was able to actually convince me. If you try to be friends with many, you end up being friends with no-one.
    Also working out has been a life goal of mine that I never knew how to implement before. Especially after my sedentary lifestyle during the repeated lockdowns, online studying, and programming for my statistics master this desire to work out has only become greater. It was very easy for him to nudge me into the right direction, but he was the first to notice that I needed this nudge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Him asking you to be more like him is like you asking him to be more like you. You guys aren't meant to be the same person, you are meant to supply the wind under the other's wings.
    That doesn't mean that you cannot learn from each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Yes, I absolutely take seriously that exaggerated nonsense. First, because all exaggerations work because there is some foundation of truth to them, and second, because I've experienced their Se selfishness wrt sex, and their Sp-selfishness wrt material things, many times.

    That "uncovered" article wasn't describing the most healthy, altruistic, "What's mine is yours and what's yours is mine, We're in this as equal partners, I'll go to the ends of the Earth for you" kind of relationship that we strive for. Instead, in my opinion, it was describing an ESI at about the 7/10 health level. But it absolutely was describing ESIs.
    I've read it and believe it to be too over the top to be of any value to me, but if it has use to you then that's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The fact that I really like, and get along with, and on some level need, ESIs, doesn't blind me anymore to their fundamental operating properties. It can be easy to overlook a characteristic when it's working to your advantage (as it often does between Duals), but you should still see the difference between what is real and what you wish for.

    Ni-valuers have to be really careful about their (our) natural tendency to gift-wrap an elephant. It is easier to see our imaginations and our wishes than it is to see reality.
    Yes, reality is the enemy of our dreams and desires... as I realized with the French date who came back to exploit me and who I now finally dumped and it felt liberating. I'm so proud of myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Essentially, SEEs do not want to share the stage with anyone. I really like SEEs, but we both want to be the main focus of attention. This is why my relationships with SEEs are usually very brief.

    And why the Dual to the SEE is the very retreating ILI.
    And SEEs cannot be counted on to remember their promises nor to be on time. They always promise the world and then forget, like this SEE pal of mine who remembered to videocall me the last three weeks like we agreed on, but has forgotten to videocall like we had planned for today. He wants to retain his spontaneity and freedom, so we no longer plan a specific time at which we'll videocall like we used to, but instead I provide him a screenshot of my agenda and tell him what day that week would suit me best. He did start his internship at the other end of Germany yesterday, hence I can imagine his weekend being messy. And he did keep his promise the past three weeks to call me, so he has a good excuse. It's just that in the past I have tried to call him too often at the time that we had agreed on without him answering me, hence we now use this looser way of planning our calls.
    Last edited by Armitage; 04-02-2022 at 08:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    "good mood" and "wholesome" are not really words I'd use to describe Gammas...but I do think they are less tumultuous than the Beta pairs generally.
    You've yet to meet us on a good day I'd say. I have an LII cousin that I've missed dearly since the outbreak of the modern plague has kept me from him for the past... 2 years it feels like and I bet I'm just about right! Our conversations are/were good mood/wholesome for... 80 percent of the time. We're both weebs in a sense and no weeb is ever going to be more than at most 80 percent "Seiso" as we term it.

    Still, we've met on a good day for us both as we'd term it. Tranquil setting, peaceful weather, good drinks of the non-alcoholic variant with pets and children frolicking about. Maybe we kind of get how we may carry the conversation in a direction that'd lead to strife but neither of us had the time, inclination, nor desire to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    "I joined the army to fight terrorists in Afghanistan, to defend my country, but not to fight this Brother War."
    This may be the key thing us dominants tend to lament about everyone else, the IEI's included. Brother wars? What the fuck did you think all wars eventually become!? If anyone in their right mind thought war was/is a glorious, honorable, or otherwise laudable thing to be pursued in the interest of some higher good like "honor" or "virtue" they're the spawn of Satan and ought to be treated as such and summarily executed!

    The Russian you speak of (likely a faithful of the Eastern Orthodox faith) ought to bone up on the works of Augustine. He is rather revered by us Roman Catholics with the highest honor of a Doctor of the Church but I've sadly not much knowledge of how the schismatics view our most vaunted figures.

    Still, his "just war" theory applies to his conscience I'd argue. A "Crusade" is declared as a last resort, only if the possibility of victory isn't lottery odds, the enemy refuses any and all rational attempts at negotiation and parley, and finally, only if by fighting this "war" Christendom as a whole avoids sacrificing yet greater numbers later by hesitation. Case in point? The first Crusade.

    So it will be in regards to the "final" crusade. It's coming. I am not exactly happy about that, but I am, have, and always will be of the opinion that Justice must be done though the Heaven's fall...

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    I think Augustine was EII.

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