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Thread: ESIs/ISFjs are not inherently more moral.

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    .
    Last edited by Skepsis; 02-16-2019 at 12:18 PM. Reason: changed my level of certainty because it has changed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Calling Fi "ethics" in English Socionics terminology has led people to focus wrongly on a phenomenon that is determined by all the information elements. "Feeling" is actually a better word for Fi and Fe. Its associations are closer to the actual reality of Fi and Fe.
    I tend to agree (not so sure about the examples though). "Feeling" is not perfect either but it's preferable to "ethics". Augusta's reason for changing the terminology is a bit obscure, maybe it makes more sense in Russian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I tend to agree (not so sure about the examples though). "Feeling" is not perfect either but it's preferable to "ethics". Augusta's reason for changing the terminology is a bit obscure, maybe it makes more sense in Russian.
    Yeah there might be some lost in translation issue there. I don't know Russian so I can't comment.

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    The only type that is inherently moral is the INTp, and only because we're sane tryhard perfectionists. I'll stop meming now. Also, that's if you ignore the prostitution.
    Last edited by Alomoes; 02-16-2019 at 08:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    They just want their own way.

    UPDATE: OR ARE THEY?
    I think as an argument the concept of moral-licensing or self-licensing would be interesting. https://www.pickthebrain.com/blog/mo...-make-you-bad/

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    This is only objective insofar as I'm using myself as a barometer and I think type is bs anyway...but in this thread I keep seeing Fi described as quiet/unexpressed feelings and I think that's not quite right if said feelings are happiness, sadness etc. for any reason. I don't think Fi types have stronger feelings than other people in general that just aren't expressed, that seems crazy. I think Fi does associate itself with things like preferences. Attitudes. Consistent feeling-based inclinations. Aversions. Values, even if they're personal and idiosyncratic or inconsistent or situation-dependent, leading to hypocrisy. How do I feel about X over time, what's my attitude towards X when I see it again? Not just how do I feel right now. Which would make Fi base types more predictable, I guess, if the particular inclination you've discovered in them holds across spheres as much as you think? Lol, but not more moral because the inclination could be to eat babies or something. Maybe only on Tuesdays though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    They just want their own way.

    UPDATE: OR ARE THEY?
    No type has cornered the market on morality. Now, Fi-types do tend to act in a moralistic way even when what they're doing is far from moral. All types usually want it their own way but most are willing to compromise, including ESIs. Most Ij-types (and Eps) tend to think that they hold the high ground with respect to their rationalization whereas Ejs and Ips tend to think that they 'know' best - it's all about ego. I've seen copies of all types with high moral fibre and other copies, the scum of the earth.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Healthy Fi types are inherently more moral in their behavior because that's the way they interpret life. They will fulfill their obligations, be polite with everyone, etc etc just like a healthy Se type will be kinda bossy with everyone but in a way that benefits the whole environment.
    Unhealthy Fi types have been nicely described by jung - crazy scheming paraonoids who can justify the worst actions in themselves just because others are'evil'
    Yeah, I think if we're talking about healthy types, Fi egos have the ingrained sensitivity to take in an emotional understanding of other people and have a lot more potential to form positive relations from this. Good Fi is awesome. And that in itself leads to a kind of charm and consideration of other people that becomes its own kind of ethic - something that Ti ego types can't really logic their way through.

    To everyone else,
    IMO anyway; I don't really get the hardcore Fi bashing as some kind of self-indulgent narcissistic mental process. In my experience anyway, if an Fi ego lashes out, it's usually because they feel hurt or victimized or something like that (whether it's even true or not which aligns with Jung's idea of paranoia and such), which is a far cry from selfishly following emotional whims and desires that just disregard other people. Maybe that applies more to weak Fi valuing types and unvalued Fi types.
    But I just don't think that's specifically Fi cause some of the cruelest most self-indulgent people I've known in my life have been Fe egos anyway.
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    blame the merry quadras

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    the interesting example of possible ESI

    Grace Slick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    the interesting example of possible ESI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Caan View Post
    Yeah, I think if we're talking about healthy types, Fi egos have the ingrained sensitivity to take in an emotional understanding of other people and have a lot more potential to form positive relations from this. Good Fi is awesome. And that in itself leads to a kind of charm and consideration of other people that becomes its own kind of ethic - something that Ti ego types can't really logic their way through.

    To everyone else,
    IMO anyway; I don't really get the hardcore Fi bashing as some kind of self-indulgent narcissistic mental process. In my experience anyway, if an Fi ego lashes out, it's usually because they feel hurt or victimized or something like that (whether it's even true or not which aligns with Jung's idea of paranoia and such), which is a far cry from selfishly following emotional whims and desires that just disregard other people. Maybe that applies more to weak Fi valuing types and unvalued Fi types.
    But I just don't think that's specifically Fi cause some of the cruelest most self-indulgent people I've known in my life have been Fe egos anyway.
    I think what is going on here is people online catch a glimpse of Fi processes that in real life would ottherwise be hidden from view as in internal. If these walls could talk sort of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    k4 types Her SLE. ....(?)
    mb. the example, where she clearly looks shy as introvert [and seems has nun inspired suite ]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    mb. the example, where she clearly looks shy as introvert [and seems has nun inspired suite ]
    Yup. Her bassist is more outgoing than her.

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    The topic of morality is mostly a parlor game of philosophers, jurists, and theologians. Anybody talking at length about it probably isn't Fi ego.

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    Some are (speaking of my aunt); they are more about relations (maintaining their close relationships)
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    ESI's are so sexy. Gotta love that morality

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    Fi types are not more moral in the sense that they are automatically "Better" people. The main difference between Fi and others is that they just think about it more. Ti types also think about justice and laws and etc. but they are more concerned about general laws. Fi is more nuanced. A Ti type is more fit for drier legal system that deal only in absolute equality. an Fi type is more fit for nuances like friendships or therapy or the "warm fuzzies" of morals. but any type can be morally upright or askance, but Fi/Ti types consider their own views moreso then the other 12.

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    “I just received this email. I’m gonna fudge that beeatch up when she gets home. I told her she’s a reflection of me when she’s out in the world and don’t make me look bad. These are not the kind of morals I want them to show to others. These behaviors are not ok. We’ve already talked about her messing up. When they are out there they better behave.”

    The aggression, the type of parenting; the lack of expression in the soft kind of love is just beyond me.

    Also tough love is not in my own books
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    “I just received this email. I’m gonna fudge that beeatch up when she gets home. I told her she’s a reflection of me when she’s out in the world and don’t make me look bad. These are not the kind of morals I want them to show to others. These behaviors are not ok. We’ve already talked about her messing up. When they are out there they better behave.”

    The aggression, the type of parenting; the lack of expression in the soft kind of love is just beyond me.

    Also tough love is not in my own books
    This is a parent talking about their child - "I'm gonna fuck that bitch up"?!!!

    If so....I have no words.

    I see at as beyond "tough love"

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    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    This is a parent talking about their child - "I'm gonna fuck that bitch up"?!!!

    If so....I have no words.

    I see at beyond "tough love"
    Pretty much
    It’s also mostly aggressive posturing

    It’s an ESI parent
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    “I just received this email. I’m gonna fudge that beeatch up when she gets home. I told her she’s a reflection of me when she’s out in the world and don’t make me look bad. These are not the kind of morals I want them to show to others. These behaviors are not ok. We’ve already talked about her messing up. When they are out there they better behave.”

    The aggression, the type of parenting; the lack of expression in the soft kind of love is just beyond me.

    Also tough love is not in my own books
    that kind of "image" focus, extension of oneself is a narc parent thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    This is a parent talking about their child - "I'm gonna fuck that bitch up"?!!!

    If so....I have no words.

    I see at as beyond "tough love"
    It sounds like it was said in jest. Haven't you ever joked around roughly with people you care about?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    It sounds like it was said in jest. Haven't you ever joked around roughly with people you care about?
    No, I haven’t (and no one has with me either - I’m well I’m playfully mean to my brother sometimes but nothing like this)

    If it is said in jest I have a hard time understanding it - it sounds like a disturbed person to me. But I’m missing nonverbal context too


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    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    No, I haven’t (and no one has with me either - I’m well I’m playfully mean to my brother sometimes but nothing like this)

    If it is said in jest I have a hard time understanding it - it sounds like a disturbed person to me, I always see that shit as a major, major red flag. But I’m missing nonverbal context too
    The image orientation bit is what sounds disturbed to me. I wonder where you're from if no one has joked with you like this, either. Hell, coworkers and I even joke this way, it's not uncommon whatsoever. It's common to jokingly call someone derogatory slurs--slut, skank, bitch, etc. Some words can't be used lightheartedly (such as dumbass--well, it can, but I don't personally do it), but there are some that can. When we are playing games together, my friends and I greet each other by making our characters slap each other repeatedly. "Fuck you, hoe" is our way of saying "I love you."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    The image orientation bit is what sounds disturbed to me. I wonder where you're from if no one has joked with you like this, either. Hell, coworkers and I even joke this way, it's not uncommon whatsoever. It's common to jokingly call someone derogatory slurs--slut, skank, bitch, etc. Some words can't be used lightheartedly (such as dumbass), but there are some that can. When we are playing games together, my friends and I greet each other by slapping each other repeatedly. "Fuck you, hoe" is our way of saying "I love you."
    it’s probably because I’m se PoLR and se types instinctively sense it in me


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    The ESI morality is basically karma, but they're not usually big on empathy.
    Then, the angel asked her what her name was. She said: "I have none"

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    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    it’s probably because I’m se PoLR and se types instinctively sense it in me
    Ehh, I don't subscribe to that theory, but you're entitled to what you want to believe.

    I used to have a coworker that--whenever he got pissed off, he got on everyone else's nerves, and then I would get annoyed from having to listen to everyone bitch and complain about him. I used to play with him roughly like that all the time, and it got him in a better mood. Then I wouldn't have to hear everyone's griping and complaining all night, lol. (I hate listening to constant negativity.) It'd be such dumb shit, though...like he goes to set a tray down and I act like I'm offended and wanna fight him about it, lmao. So stupid. I know no one took it seriously because we were both obviously smiling during it, but I'd probably think it was funny if someone had.


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    Idk, personally, I'm empathetic to a fault...until you get on my bad side, and then you get the exact opposite. Most people would just say that cliche, "I can either be your best friend or your worst nightmare." I think it applies to me more than most people in the sense that I'm more willing to go to greater extremes on both ends of the spectrum. Risked my life to help someone I knew for 2 weeks, can't watch gore/horror (I over-empathize), or shows like "Squid Game" without having a complete meltdown (crying my eyes out, etc) about how fucked up it was that it was the most popular show at the time, and that people could actually watch it and enjoy it...but if some twat molests a child or surgically adds a USB port into a cat's back, I can easily be sadistic toward that motherfucker in defense of them myself. Don't fuck with the innocent/defenseless.

    I don't believe Fi = empathy. (Empathy is where morality comes from.)

    EDIT:
    I will say, though, I've never just deliberately fucked someone over without provocation. The ways I've harmed others have always been either A) Accidental due to the fact that I have human faults/errors, or B) Deliberate in response to something horrible the person did...usually me defending/seeking vengeance for someone else, rather than seeking revenge for something done against myself.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 04-01-2023 at 03:10 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    Idk, personally, I'm empathetic to a fault...until you get on my bad side, and then you get the exact opposite. Most people would just say that cliche, "I can either be your best friend or your worst nightmare." I think it applies to me more than most people in the sense that I'm more willing to go to greater extremes on both ends of the spectrum. Risked my life to help someone I knew for 2 weeks, can't watch gore/horror (I over-empathize), or shows like "Squid Game" without having a complete meltdown (crying my eyes out, etc) about how fucked up it was that it was the most popular show at the time, and that people could actually watch it and enjoy it...but if some twat molests a child or surgically adds a USB port into a cat's back, I can easily be sadistic toward that motherfucker in defense of them myself. Don't fuck with the innocent/defenseless.

    I don't believe Fi = empathy. (Empathy is where morality comes from.)
    That is being empathetic
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    That is being empathetic
    It is. I was just adding that I don't think Fi = being empathetic and that I chalk my own shit up to empathy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    The image orientation bit is what sounds disturbed to me. I wonder where you're from if no one has joked with you like this, either. Hell, coworkers and I even joke this way, it's not uncommon whatsoever. It's common to jokingly call someone derogatory slurs--slut, skank, bitch, etc. Some words can't be used lightheartedly (such as dumbass--well, it can, but I don't personally do it), but there are some that can. When we are playing games together, my friends and I greet each other by making our characters slap each other repeatedly. "Fuck you, hoe" is our way of saying "I love you."
    Just to chip in and say I've never joked like this with anyone either nor have almost all the friends I've had throughout life done this.

    I've had people make rougher jokes like this with me but it always made me uncomfortable. It makes me feel as if they might hurt me or they mean the things they said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamarine View Post
    Just to chip in and say I've never joked like this with anyone either nor have almost all the friends I've had throughout life done this.

    I've had people make rougher jokes like this with me but it always made me uncomfortable. It makes me feel as if they might hurt me or they mean the things they said.
    I tend to feel people out before doing it, I dont do it with just anyone.

    Sorry for short reply, theres a tornado close by and I'm keeping tabs on it, so my mind is elsewhere.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamarine View Post
    Just to chip in and say I've never joked like this with anyone either nor have almost all the friends I've had throughout life done this.

    I've had people make rougher jokes like this with me but it always made me uncomfortable. It makes me feel as if they might hurt me or they mean the things they said.
    Now that tornadoes have passed...
    I tend to feel people out, get to know their sensitivities first, etc. I dont joke this way when first meeting someone. If I joke with them in that way, it's a sign of being close and /or familiar.

    I'm uncomfortable with anyone I can't be sort of rough with. I feel like I can't relax and let my guard down with them, and like they might easily get offended by something I accidentally say.


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    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    This is a parent talking about their child - "I'm gonna fuck that bitch up"?!!!

    If so....I have no words.

    I see at as beyond "tough love"
    I think it’s not much of a big deal, not yet. You should see Gamma SF in the middle of conflict, when they go full “mean girl” mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renna View Post
    I think it’s not much of a big deal, not yet. You should see Gamma SF in the middle of conflict, when they go full “mean girl” mode.

    Guilty

    I mean, I know that has been true of me in the past, but I hate generalizations about types. Personally, these days, I've matured enough to not get like this in my personal relationships. It's just toxic and unacceptable to be like that regardless of who you are. I'm honestly even cleaning my act up on the forums, and that is where I've been the worst behaved.

    Everyone has their own personal values, maturity levels, and standards. I would hate for someone to assume someone is like this just because they get the Gamma SF label slapped onto them.


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    I don’t think I have any rigid ones beyond not inflicting unnecessary emotional/physical harm. I think more in terms of consequences and self-preservation than morality
    Last edited by Averroes; 06-26-2023 at 10:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppai Anschluss View Post
    For some reason that struck me as tragic. Guess that's Fe super-id instead of Fe super-ego.
    Dude, I miss you. I wish you were still around, you were fun. (You knew me as either RGB or Hexcoder, I can't remember which username I had when we talked.)


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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    They just want their own way.

    UPDATE: OR ARE THEY?
    Everyone on this thread is overlooking one key detail: morality is subjective. So, do ESI's just want our own way? In a sense, yes--but that's because our values (just as anyone's) are completely subjective. Our values (just like anyone's) can also change throughout time by way of experiences, perspectives, insights, thoughts, and feelings. Those things may cause the morality to either evolve, or DEvolve.

    In theory, when an ESI becomes corrupted, it's probably because they feel morally justified to do what they're doing, based on warped worldviews, etc. For instance, they may see themselves as punishers exacting vengeance upon those who are corrupt, unjust, and so on (which is why ESI's can be E8's).

    Just because you view them as immoral, doesn't mean they aren't adhering to their own individualistic set of morals. That's part of what Fi even is, it goes its own path more, instead of synchronizing emotionally with others by way of a shared emotional atmosphere. It's kind of like this story about a tiger who began hunting humans out of vengeance for what humans had done to her, as tigers are one of the few animals that will actually seek revenge.



    Skip to 14:31 for the story I'm referring to. She killed more than 400 people, and she was referred to her as "The Devil of India." When they finally captured and killed her, the wounds on her body made it clear she was more of a victim than a villain. While she was probably just acting upon pure fear-based aggression as her reason for targeting humans, for the sake of the morality comparison I'll say this as though she was acting upon moral conscience: in the tiger's mind (if she had motives based on morality), her actions were completely morally justified. Transfer that to ESI--you get...an ESI who is in an unhealthy state and thus acting in ways others consider immoral.



    Sooooo...in answer to this question, it's not one or the other. It's both--except, there's an underlying false premise there, which is in the words, "inherently more moral." Define more moral? This phrasing suggests there is some kind of comparison to a baseline, but said baseline is merely predicated upon what society considers okay or acceptable--that which is broadly agreed upon or looked on favorably by society. So, really, there's no objective criteria to which the ESI's morality is able to be compared. It's just their own ideas of what seems moral to them at that point in their lives.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 06-26-2023 at 10:12 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Maverick View Post
    Everyone on this thread is overlooking one key detail: morality is subjective. So, do ESI's just want our own way? In a sense, yes--but that's because our values (just as anyone's) are completely subjective. Our values (just like anyone's) can also change throughout time by way of experiences, perspectives, insights, thoughts, and feelings. Those things may cause the morality to either evolve, or DEvolve.

    In theory, when an ESI becomes corrupted, it's probably because they feel morally justified to do what they're doing, based on warped worldviews, etc. For instance, they may see themselves as punishers exacting vengeance upon those who are corrupt, unjust, and so on (which is why ESI's can be E8's).
    if Fi moral is completely subjective, then how do we relate it back to the society? every function has a use. so what is the use of Fi? it does help the individual, but Aushra was saying how ethical TIMs help logical TIMs connect to huamn society. the descriptions say Fi types are useful for being there for other people, and defending "what is right". but if theres so much variation, where is the intrinsic value of the function?

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    Morals are not always subjetive. ESI morals might be, but ESE or EII morals (which are more appropiate probably to be labeled 'ethics' — they're fundamented on empathy) have an objetive flair to it.
    Then, the angel asked her what her name was. She said: "I have none"

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