Page 17 of 30 FirstFirst ... 713141516171819202127 ... LastLast
Results 641 to 680 of 1174

Thread: Adventures in Dating

  1. #641

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I feel like I like it more when someone likes me for my use of my creative function than my base function. If feels like I earn their attraction, like I'm doing something attractive than passively being attractive to them with something I can't control. Like when someone likes me for my base function sometimes it can feel like I'm a monkey in a zoo, I know they aren't trying to make me feel that way, but it's not something I can control but they seem to like the condition I have, which doesn't give me a sense of pride. I guess I feel a sense of pride when I can actively attract someone with my creative than just be a sort of spectacle or magnet for someone and not know why. Maybe also because I want someone to like me for what I like about myself, which is my Ne, my pride and joy. This is what I feel like I have to offer. While my base function can feel like a trap sometimes.
    Makes me think maybe other people want to be liked for what they take pride in and like about themselves too.

  2. #642

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    Why is it harder when you know their type?
    Hmm..probably because I want either a dual or semi-dual. So when I talk to them..I’m kinda hoping that I’ll see some long-term potential in them. And during the initial parts of interaction/ first date or two..I project on to them what I want.

    When it comes to other sociotypes, I can foresee too many problems ‘potentially’ happening..and it puts me off them. If I met an ILE I really fancied..or a SLI that seemed super solid I’d also go for those types.

    Maybe I shouldn’t limit myself- for example maybe an identical type could be ok/get attached to me

    I’m gonna trying to be more relaxed in my interactions now..I think you do start to ‘feel out’ what you need from someone..the more you date..

    also maybe ‘hotness’ is a better indicator of a relationship working..as in genuine attraction, not simply sexual attraction (which can be genuine but maybe not for long term..)

    Some SEEs/ SLEs may be perfectly adequate for me/ me them- but if there isn’t that in your face spark right away..maybe there’s a strong chance they’re gonna dump you still lol

    I also seem to be getting used to SLE faces..and I feel like maybe I'm less fussy about their looks now..more fussy about their personality........
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 07-12-2022 at 01:50 PM.

  3. #643
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,229
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Have you ever dated someone and really liked them and you put a lot of work into the relationship, but they didn’t seem all that interested in reciprocating?

    You can ask yourself why they aren’t that much into you, but the answer really doesn’t matter. They’re not going to change, no matter how much you bend over backwards for them. It’s best to move on.

    A couple years ago, I was having lunch with a newly-divorced male ESI. At the time, I was dating an ESI who seemed good and I was feeling upbeat, and he was feeling down.
    ”I haven’t really dated since high school”, he said. “Dating is hard. It’s really hard.”

    Well, that particular ESI dating relationship crashed and burned. She told me right from the start that she wasn’t looking for anything serious. Why didn’t I listen to her? I was obviously listening too hard to my own need to connect.

    My friend was almost right. I think that dating is easy, but finding someone whose “numbers” equal your numbers, and who wants you as much as you want them, is hard.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-13-2022 at 02:04 PM.

  4. #644

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Adam Strange
    Yeah it is hard. But you do learn from it. I think when you really like someone it’s easy to keep on holding on to a glimmer of hope. There’s a doc who episode where Martha, the doc’s companion decides she has to leave the doc because she likes him and he’s still in love with his previous companion..Whilst you’re around the person, it’s hard to give up on them.


    God I had some bad crushes when I was young. You can live of a crush when you’re young..maybe not so young. And I don’t see crushes as trivial like an SF might


    I think one has to be particularly careful with dating apps. My sister really doesn’t like them..you get thrown together with people who seem kinda interesting..but you don’t really know why- often you don’t have much in common. I think this can make attraction and chemistry dynamics more confusing. Although they do seem to work for people in the end..


    atm I’m looking for interaction that simply feels light and simple

    edit: I give up on dating apps lol, like I now have no expectations from anyone I match with.

    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 07-19-2022 at 06:37 PM.

  5. #645

    Join Date
    Jun 2022
    TIM
    SLI
    Posts
    1,387
    Mentioned
    79 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Iconoclast View Post
    I never had a romantic relationship. I should get out of my schizoid head first and then try some adventures in this particular side of life.
    This is more common for introverts than extraverts. EIE should have no problems ''getting out of their heads'' and have adventures (especialy romantic, where ethical types are confident), besides non-type factors like mental illness/other things. Perhaps consider IEI as a possible type, too.

  6. #646

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Joined an MBTI dating app and got some matches. Who knows if people's types are their real types and how it all translates, but it has been interesting, seems fun so far.

    Currently in a conversation with an MBTI ENTJ and I need an abort button, nothing wrong with her but I she has a flirty style that clearly would work on an aggressor, innuendos and kinky stuff, and I played too much into it and now I need to get out lol.

    It's hilarious because the other girl I'm in a conversation with is an ENFP and it's the most innocent convo ever. "What's you're favorite icecream flavor" LOL.

  7. #647
    Riley and Bunny together forever HicksHawking 14Raptor19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Macroverse MtBattle ScholarsGarden Halloween1993 SuperNexus InfinitiesUltimate AllSpectraEverywhere
    TIM
    RayquazaRaichuArceus
    Posts
    5,646
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    All of this dating stuff requires skill and charming moves to magically summon the wand of seizing and mastering the less focused and spell-wieldy.
    Raptor had to lose in 2006 to become Revan, important errands of knighthood and valor to walk with Pokemon and charm the melodies of sweet channels to lush frenzy galloping solo yet swiftly into the sunrise for maximum presents and signed in deluxe oceans of fast trading cards bazooka cascading rumba of love Force constellations restoring last battle cardinal plants actively swirling for juice and petals to wishes
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...k-2024-edition

  8. #648
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,162
    Mentioned
    305 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Joined an MBTI dating app and got some matches. Who knows if people's types are their real types and how it all translates, but it has been interesting, seems fun so far.

    Currently in a conversation with an MBTI ENTJ and I need an abort button, nothing wrong with her but I she has a flirty style that clearly would work on an aggressor, innuendos and kinky stuff, and I played too much into it and now I need to get out lol.

    It's hilarious because the other girl I'm in a conversation with is an ENFP and it's the most innocent convo ever. "What's you're favorite icecream flavor" LOL.
    Some people on Tinder also give their mbti type, or they have at least taken a test and think they know the type. (This is in Finland, might be different in other countries). I have met some of them. Sometimes the type is right, but often it is completely wrong. "INFJ" seems to be a popular type, because the MBTI description of it is flattering, or so it used to be back in the day when I read the descriptions. I have met LSE and SLE who think they are "INFJ".

    But in dating the only thing that matters is the result, and I am sure MBTI dating is worth trying.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  9. #649
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Finland
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,162
    Mentioned
    305 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just joined a Christian dating app. For people who are more "traditional" and are looking for a serious relationship. I am very far from a traditional Christian believer, but I got into Christianity through depth psychology, and I am genuinely interested in religion, tradition, symbolism and Christianity, so I kindof feel at home in this app. And I wouldn't mind a serious relationship. Even got an interesting match yesterday.

    Might be worth trying for other people here also.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  10. #650
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    The Netherlands
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 2w1-5 SX/so
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    in aroundabout way (low si?)
    Watching their best friend throw their young life away for 8 years+? Harassing you to listen to their problems, not realising yours are actually worse? Even though they do know really. They’re very good at blanking stuff out that makes them uncomfortable.


    Yes, this is recognizable from the IEEs who I know. Because they always ponder the myriad ways (Ne) in which their life (Fi) can go right or wrong, they keep talking exclusively about themselves and their problems, completely forgetting in the process that the person listening to them has a life and problems of their own. In an unintentional way, IEEs tend to be really self-centered in the most literal sense of the word, fixating on their problems to the extent of ignoring the needs of others. Also their sense of humour can be self-centered in that way, because they do almost anything, really anything, for laughs, because they crave the attention.
    While ILEs are intellectual attention whores, IEEs are emotional attention whores. SEEs are status attention whores, ESEs social attention whores, EIEs ideological attention whores, SLEs daredevil attention whores, and LIEs success attention whores. All extroverts are attention whores. Case closed.
    I only cannot figure out what type of attention whore LSEs are, because they generally seem too put together? "Justifying their conservative values as modern"-attention whores, possibly?



    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Natal Intensive Care Unit. Preme baby=Premature Baby. One of my own relations had such a birth. Poor thing was confined to a plastic box for three months outside the womb with all kinds of tubes stuck into his form. His parents are wonderful far as I can tell, but like I said, you can't undo how our brains work in a mechanical sense.

    Well, I think it was three months. Point is he was barely viable when he was born and the box was his world up until he had finally become fully viable as a nine-month old baby (if we count from the moment of fertilization).
    This is very recognizable, as my Sister had been born weeks too early and was put in an incumbation chamber for that period. For all her life she has been struggling with great shyness, something which she still struggles with to date, but gradually is learning to handle better. Being born from the same Parents, she basically received a similar upbringing as me, but when she did her internship for school at the scouting organization where I had played for years, the staff could not believe that she was truly my Sister, so quiet she was compared to my overly talkative personality. Only when they saw my Mother give her a ride to the scouting building did they recognize that my Sister and I are siblings.

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Remember how for Gamma types like me Life is a game?
    My LSE-Si Father lamented this month that he had sold some of his stock a day too early. He needed to liquidate some assets, in order to be able to invest in the house of my Sister. The stocks he sold soared the day after. He consoled himself that he had still raked in some nice profit on them, because he had held onto them for a very long time with them starting out being worth little, but with good potential. When he mentioned the profit that he had missed out on, I quipped: "That's the nature of the game." To which he fervently responded that life is not a game and that finances are a very serious matter. The gist of what I said flew right over his Delta mindset.

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Mostly true. After all, you're never too old to start making good decisions. However, I will note that objective reality is, well, objective. While your intrinsic value as a human/sentient being is beyond reproach your perceived value is (perhaps sadly in this example) open to interpretation and that interpretation is actually pretty easy to figure out.

    Remember how for Gamma types like me Life is a game? A game with rules that only idiots fail to learn hard and fast? Yeah, sexual history actually matters and it doubly matters for women. "Can't turn a Ho into a Housewife" resonates for even non-Gamma types for a good reason. If she has 7 kids by 6 different fathers what are the odds you won't be the reason she has 8 kids by 7 different fathers?

    Kids I will note you probably aren't even trying to get close to emotionally. Big idea for anyone dating a "single mother" (or father) that you actually want to wife/husband up earnestly and honestly. If you must be "Captain Save a Ho/rake" than know this. The fastest way into the pants and ultimately heart of a woman/man with children they know is theirs is to try to heal their own children's attachment issues.

    You are, by necessity, crushing the innate dreams of the child. After all, what they innately want is for their true mommy and daddy to make up and get back together. If you wed her and become their step-father/mother you have, in point of fact, crushed their most wholly wished for and most innocent of dreams.

    However, there is something else I and most other ILI's will harp on. If you gotta do something "wrong", do it right. You are not their biological dad/mom. Yeah, damn right I'm not. Guess what, that doesn't matter to me because I can still be an amazing uncle or something else like that. I cannot "replace" your dad/mom, but I can still be an awesome figure in your life. You need a hug? I'll give ya one. Why? Because I wanna make you as happy as I can. I actually do love you faults and all! And I'm willing to prove it to you.

    I sadly regret to report that such thinking isn't encouraged in modern society...
    I counter your argument with an example. An IEE Friend of mine has three different children with three different fathers. Her first two relationships didn't work out, but the last one did. From what I could tell, he was an introverted secondary Te personality who worked as a neurosurgeon. Based on his profession, I presume him to have been an ILI instead of a SLI, but I'm not certain. He fully put his back into being there for his step-Children and Wife. The Children grew up with their Mother, but she also maintained some contact with their biological fathers for them. In times of trouble, however, they turned to their step-Father. He was there 24/7 as the Children grew up with their Mother and he maintained a cool problem solving head, whenever their Mom became a stressed out chaotic mess when problems arise. He not only calmed the Children, he also calmed her. He even doubted conceiving a Child with his Wife, because he feared that might change his interaction with his step-Children, but it did not. He still loved them fully and they him. For decades they were happy together, until he got a stroke and was submitted to the very neurosurgery room he so often operated in. My Friend put it well on the graduation party of their Daughter, if not for that stroke, their love would have lasted for life. She hasn't had a relationship thereafter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    This post exemplifies HP cognition really well.
    Why, what characterizes holographic-projecting (H-P) cognition?



    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    His boyfriend is LSE and I tend to notice similarities between SEE and LSE.
    What similarities do you observe between SEEs and LSEs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    More importantly, these guys are people I really get on with, and I feel lucky to share fun experiences with them.
    I'm happy for you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    When you think about it, trading sex for money, or providing a mother with a good home and a father with good children, is something that we all do to various degrees. Only the terms of the exchange differ from one case to another. Only the details matter, and they should only matter to the people involved.
    I offer you an inversion of your theory in which the wife is the earner and the husband the childraiser. One of my three Best Friends is a LSI-Se who has agreed with his girlfriend that he will be the stay home part-timing Father to their Children, while she works. They have been together for 10 years now since high school and next year they will wed. He is currently unemployed, because sports psychology at university level is not a frequently requested degree for vacancies, because it makes him simultaneously overqualified, while lacking any practical experience that he would have gotten at university of applied sciences or vocational education. She, on the other hand, will soon graduate for her medical study and also obtain her biopharmacology degree. She will specialize into psychiatry and will earn more, regardless of what he does.

    Since he invited me to their wedding next year, he and I have discussed his shared future with her at length. His unemployment played a pivotal role in this and in the end we concluded that he rather would like to go back to university to train himself to become a clinical psychologist intead, which he is interested into as much as in sports psychology, is more job secure, and he can work in it part-time once he starts taking care of their future Children. Since she is still studying full-time, in order to become a psychiatrist, but they are living together and thus have to pay the rent, he currently works in hospital to provide the staff and elderly patients food. It is an understimulating job for which he has to travel a lot. With the current gasoline prices, due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, he barely retains any money after paying their rent and food. I recommended him to get himself a loan with his rich Parents to pay the rent, food, and his tuition fee for that one and a half years, after which he can start paying them back gradually. By then she will probably earn enough to pay the living costs and possibly any mortgage payments too.

    Knowing him, I subtly asked her some questions about her study plans and introduced her to the topic that he wants to eventually retrain himself into clinical psychology from there on he could handle the conversation himself. She has been very supportive and it actually relieved her that he now has a plan, because she worries a lot about the future, while he remains stoicly calm and essentially ignores any future threats. After he had finally been accepted to a job interview, but still got rejected, because of his overqualification and lack of working experience in the field, she encouraged him to start with the retraining this year already. I would not be surprised if she is his EIE-Ni dual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    In my experience, Duals are hard to meet because their interests are so different from ours, but they don't step on our toes (because there is no competition between people who specialize in opposite areas). So they can be really easy to get along with, in almost every area.
    Yes, duals are hard to meet. Sometimes I even wonder if ESIs use dating applications, because most of my ESI friends find them inauthentic, they are too self-conscious to make a profile about themselves that sells short who they are and what they stand for, and are too unsure of their looks to make photographs of themselves or let photographs be taken of them, despite them already looking stellarwith minimal effort in their daily wear.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    I should’ve known he was overly judgmental when he ranted about disliking atheists… and weebs… and left-leaning people… and people who go to the wilderness to hang out with others rather than to enjoy the solitude of nature… and Californians… and professors… and stereotypical bookworms… and the list goes on and on. I guess I *did* realize. I even said at one point “if you’re this judgmental, it’s only gonna be a matter of time before you want to rant about *me.*” He denied that he would, but I was right in hindsight.


    Good riddance! You deserve better! He surely wasn't worth you! You're better off without him. Honestly, it might sting now, but it's better than getting all hung up over someone who you perceive to be your dual and love, due to the rose coloured glasses of infatuation, I know from experience. You deserve someone kind and understanding. Also, I have read quite some posts from you by now and I don't think that you're crazy at all and I'm trained to sniff out crazy as a psychologist.
    I think that you as a person are deep and interesting. But your daily activities might be a bit bland and could use some spicing up perhaps? Undertaking some novel hobbies would be nice to begin with. If you have an IEE friend, what would work for sure is teaming up with them, because they are the antithesis of blandness. As they are your mirror, they share similar values and oftentimes intuitively know your boundaries, because they have the same. Mirror friendships make for nice synergies, is my experience. Go hang out with a nice IEE friend and liven up your life a bit to the extent that you're comfortable with. Perhaps in the process of getting you out there more, the IEE friend might accidentally introduce you to a nice LSE acquintance of theirs. They are socializers and fellow Deltas, and as we know, birds of a feather flock together. I think that it might be worth giving a try.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    You are not those things he said about you- he just wants to feel like the conversation is worthwhile for him and that he has ‘taught’ you something. It’s immaturity or idiocy if he can’t empathise with your viewpoint.
    I totally agree with you that that guy was a completely immature jerk, but I don't get the impression that he wanted to "teach" Dreymagine his viewpoint, because he couldn't empathize with hers. Instead I think that he took out his frustration on Dreymagine for not living up to his impossible ideals. The fact that he mentions "all those other girls who he deems boring" shows a problem with him, because he rapidly rejects women in series, as none live up to his too high standards. Instead of adjusting his standards he takes the frustration of his repeated failures out onto the women he dates. He failed and will continue failing to court women, because by blaming others for his mistakes he will never learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I had a lot of empathy for this person but we had significant communication problems. I think we were too similar in a way-he was quiet and anxious and softly spoken.
    What characterized him as an SLE, though?



    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I feel like it's hard to pick someone I like if I know their type. Like I find them attractive, might think they are cool, but if I know their type I start thinking of how the ITR will play out instead of just seeing for myself. It's harder to allow myself to like someone I actually like if I know their type.
    For me the process works inversely, first I am interested into someone and only then do I investigate their sociotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I feel like I like it more when someone likes me for my use of my creative function than my base function. If feels like I earn their attraction, like I'm doing something attractive than passively being attractive to them with something I can't control. Like when someone likes me for my base function sometimes it can feel like I'm a monkey in a zoo, I know they aren't trying to make me feel that way, but it's not something I can control but they seem to like the condition I have, which doesn't give me a sense of pride. I guess I feel a sense of pride when I can actively attract someone with my creative than just be a sort of spectacle or magnet for someone and not know why. Maybe also because I want someone to like me for what I like about myself, which is my Ne, my pride and joy. This is what I feel like I have to offer. While my base function can feel like a trap sometimes.
    Makes me think maybe other people want to be liked for what they take pride in and like about themselves too.
    This makes sense, because our primary function we use automatically and reflexively, whilst our secondary function we use consciously and with some effort. When we do invest effort into using our secondary function we wish the goal to be meaningful and the result to be valued. We therefore take greater pride and joy out of the victories we accomplish with our secondary function than our first, because those successes we achieve solely by using our first function we tend to take for granted.

    Last edited by Armitage; 07-18-2022 at 03:48 PM.

  11. #651

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by persimmonism View Post
    Why is it harder when you know their type?
    it's also hard because...you know about it and they don't. So you'll be on dates with duals (not even duals you fancy) and you know to be tolerant of them...and I'm not sure the interaction is the best..it's not natural that you know they are your dual. I think I'm too nice to them (although it def happens that I am too relaxed around them and act like a dick- rare but true). I have had some odd (sometimes interesting) experiences with duals (much more odd than my friend who is dating atm and doesn't know how to type people). The good thing about it is that it makes you open to dating duals who may have some potential...but so often they are just really annoying..and it gets boring. Probably just need a break..
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 07-18-2022 at 05:22 PM.

  12. #652

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I was upfront and honest with the LIE girl, told her I'm not the guy she's looking for. I was worried about even sending the message for a while but I pressed send. A while later she thanked me for the heads up and appreciated the honesty and we unmatched. I learned a little lesson in being direct and not being too much into my own feelings about it lol, easier than I thought.

  13. #653

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,335
    Mentioned
    64 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    A Christian pen-pal dude just brought up kids to me twice in the same letter.


    First, he had been talking about having to pull late nights during his early career as a lawyer (considering that, he's probably quite a bit older than me, which I don't mind as long as he's not trying to flirt), and then he said that the sleep deprivation might be good preparation for having kids someday. Pft. Real smooth, buddy.


    Secondly, we'd been talking about our own real-life names and then he was like, "have you thought about what you'd wanna name your kids someday if you have any?" Lmao.


    Does this indicate that he's feeling interested in me and trying to gauge whether I wanna be a mother? Idk, I think may be reading into this way too much. After all, those were just two sentences in a fairly long letter. Though, I still can’t help but wonder if a lot of the men on this pen-pal app aren't using it as a long-distance dating app or something lol. Maybe I should delete the app... But it’s quite fun, so I think I’ll just modify my settings in order to only receive new friend requests from women.


    I do like him, though. Whereas the other guy was constantly being negative about almost everything/everyone, this guy is very kind and makes a point to look on the bright side of things in his life. Plus, he seems intelligent & interesting, and our religious & political views appear to be in alignment thus far. That being said, I'm not gonna flirt with some random dude from Oregon who could be like my dad’s age for all I know lol. (Unlike the other guy, he has his age hidden from his profile, which is probably telling.) And I mean, I’m not gonna allow myself to develop romantic feelings for someone I haven't met in person, period. I already knew that it was silly to do so, and the pen-pal exchange I spoke of earlier cemented this realization in my brain.

    (Edit: He must have taken that 16Personalities test because his profile includes: "ESTJ-A, if you're into that sort of thing.")

    I see no other reason why a guy would use an app like that.

  14. #654
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    The Netherlands
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 2w1-5 SX/so
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    A Christian pen-pal dude just brought up kids to me twice in the same letter.


    First, he had been talking about having to pull late nights during his early career as a lawyer (considering that, he's probably quite a bit older than me, which I don't mind as long as he's not trying to flirt), and then he said that the sleep deprivation might be good preparation for having kids someday. Pft. Real smooth, buddy.


    Secondly, we'd been talking about our own real-life names and then he was like, "have you thought about what you'd wanna name your kids someday if you have any?" Lmao.


    Does this indicate that he's feeling interested in me and trying to gauge whether I wanna be a mother? Idk, I think may be reading into this way too much. After all, those were just two sentences in a fairly long letter. Though, I still can’t help but wonder if a lot of the men on this pen-pal app aren't using it as a long-distance dating app or something lol. Maybe I should delete the app... But it’s quite fun, so I think I’ll just modify my settings in order to only receive new friend requests from women.


    I do like him, though. Whereas the other guy was constantly being negative about almost everything/everyone, this guy is very kind and makes a point to look on the bright side of things in his life. Plus, he seems intelligent & interesting, and our religious & political views appear to be in alignment thus far. That being said, I'm not gonna flirt with some random dude from Oregon who could be like my dad’s age for all I know lol. (Unlike the other guy, he has his age hidden from his profile, which is probably telling.) And I mean, I’m not gonna allow myself to develop romantic feelings for someone I haven't met in person, period. I already knew that it was silly to do so, and the pen-pal exchange I spoke of earlier cemented this realization in my brain.

    (Edit: He must have taken that 16Personalities test because his profile includes: "ESTJ-A, if you're into that sort of thing.")

    <Does a Cruella de Vil swirl of his arms.>
    Dreymagine, darling, I already figured out that he is a LSE/ESTJ the moment that you told me that he's a lawyer, brags about how hard he works, and tries to subtly express that he wants to settle down and have children, but is actually tactlessly blunt about it. I needed no MBTI typing for that.

    On the bully I have too little information to come to a conclusion, but he actually feels more like a dissatisfied and grumpy LSI to me, given how he tends to categorize (Ti) everybody who he meets based on his religious values, shared interest in his hobbies, and his conservatism. He exhibits a categorizing system with his internal world as the focal point, which would imply introverted thinking. Moreover, his entire negativity about everyone and everything reminds me of a LSI truck driver who I broke off contact with, because all he did was categorize people into groups that he could complain about, while in reality he was simply dissatisfied with his life. Then again, he had no desire to change his behaviour, so he perpetuated in this manner his loneliness by being so rude, including to me. But I am able to rebuke their TiSe attacks with some sharp TeSe counter-offences, whereas for you Se is your point of least resistance (PolR), so it hits hard.
    Also, I have yet to meet a Delta thinker who would be put off by someone being boring, because they themselves generally life very very bland and unimaginative lives.
    Last edited by Armitage; 07-19-2022 at 08:13 PM.

  15. #655
    dewusional entitwed snowfwake VewyScawwyNawcissist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    uNdeR yOur SkIn
    TIM
    NF 6w5-4w5-1w9 VLEF
    Posts
    3,084
    Mentioned
    141 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I see no other reason why a guy would use an app like that.
    i know a female LSE that ended up with too few friends tho shes young. LSE classmate talked to everyone but it seemed he struggled to really connect to anyone. my LSE father and grandmother seem to be in the same boat. other LSEs ive seen who had a community had something super niche that particular ppl were interested in but even then its like they come and go. they feel used to serve others and left out.
    dating may likely be this guy's thing but it may not be the only thing
    https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
    Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals

    self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective


    Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality

    I want to care
    if I was better I’d help you
    if I was better you’d be better

    Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1




  16. #656
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    The Netherlands
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 2w1-5 SX/so
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    LOL yeah it is pretty obvious, isn't it?
    Yup, the lawyer was obvious to figure out being your dual. Even if he might not be your age, he might turn out to be a kind pen pal or at the very least a good learning experience to figure out where all those LSEs are hiding (hint: churches, fishing pools, libraries, allotment gardens, cycling clubs, and offices).

    With the bully I got an intuition of him being a Beta LSI, but it took me more time to analyse the logical reasons as to why, which I now have included into the same post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    Well, in his profile he states that he downloaded the app just because he likes to meet new people and learn about different places/people. That doesn't make it sound like he's on the app just to make romantic connections, but maybe that is his true intent and he's trying to be subtle about it or something?
    Subtle like a bull in a China shop: "have you thought about what you'd wanna name your kids someday if you have any?"
    Te-users really don't do subtlety. We do business talk, not subtlety, because that's instead what Fe-users do. We are rather blunt.
    Just look at Adam and me for instance, we aren't really the shining examples of subtlety. We are exact, precise, and correct, but everything but subtle. We are far too direct for that. We also pride ourselves in our honesty as a moral principle.
    Also, whenever we feel something, we feel strongly about it and despite our Te's best efforts to keep a cool appearance, our feelings will seep through. At least they do so enough for a discerning Fi-user to notice.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I see no other reason why a guy would use an app like that.
    And I see no reason why a gay guy would use an app like that, but apparently they do for some reason beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreymagine View Post
    Also, I've had a a gay guy and a happily married guy send me letters as well
    Last edited by Armitage; 07-18-2022 at 09:48 PM.

  17. #657
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,229
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I went out on a date with an ESI today. Another ESI date that was supposed to be just lunch but instead lasted eight hours. This keeps happening to me. It seems to happen only with ESIs, though.

    We had lunch and walked through a park. She has the excellent taste in clothes that most ESIs have. She seemed pretty comfortable around me. She told me that the guy she had been seeing liked to walk too close to her. He also wanted to know too much about her, which she did not like. Me, I was just out for a nice lunch and some exercise in -hopefully- pleasant company.

    She said that I tipped the waitress too much. I told her that the waitress was living on tips, because they usually aren't even paid minimum wage. She said "I guess if you earn a lot, you can spend a lot." It was a flat statement, but it sounded like a criticism.

    Later, as I was getting ready to drive home, she said that she's lower middle class, and then just stared at me. After a minute, I told her I might be upper middle class. I thanked her for a great day and kissed her. She didn't object, but she was watching me kiss her.

    I've never had a woman tell me that before. It was a strange thing to bring up.

    I liked her, but now I'm wondering if that will be a problem.

    ESI e6 = Doubt, personified.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-19-2022 at 05:07 AM.

  18. #658
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I counter your argument with an example. An IEE Friend of mine has three different children with three different fathers. Her first two relationships didn't work out, but the last one did. From what I could tell, he was an introverted secondary Te personality who worked as a neurosurgeon. Based on his profession, I presume him to have been an ILI instead of a SLI, but I'm not certain. He fully put his back into being there for his step-Children and Wife. The Children grew up with their Mother, but she also maintained some contact with their biological fathers for them. In times of trouble, however, they turned to their step-Father. He was there 24/7 as the Children grew up with their Mother and he maintained a cool problem solving head, whenever their Mom became a stressed out chaotic mess when problems arise. He not only calmed the Children, he also calmed her. He even doubted conceiving a Child with his Wife, because he feared that might change his interaction with his step-Children, but it did not. He still loved them fully and they him. For decades they were happy together, until he got a stroke and was submitted to the very neurosurgery room he so often operated in. My Friend put it well on the graduation party of their Daughter, if not for that stroke, their love would have lasted for life. She hasn't had a relationship thereafter.
    I can further counter you by simply stating my previous points. Points I'm also pretty damn sure I've made elsewhere. A healthy/secure "Step-Father" can become a better version of a father than the original and almost certainly broken/lost father. I mean fuck, I've spelled out repeatedly that if you wanna get in with a mother in any way your first and best bet is making her children happy. Make the baby coo joyfully as you bounce them in your lap. Hold them gently as you would an actual treasure for no other reason than they are...

    Like I've said elsewhere, it's never too late to finally start making good decisions. It's more difficult for a single mother to find a wonderful, secure, and loving partner, but it ain't ever truly impossible. Hell, I'm Catholic and when I say that no sin is beyond God's mercy to forgive I mean it. It requires true repentance yes but so long as ya do that you are well and truly forgiven. You may not believe you are worthy of such mercy, but the infinite does and that's what matters.

    I'd argue it was because this man was... Ok now I'm a bit confused. The Step-Father ILI was the one they turned to in times of crisis despite knowing he wasn't their true father right? This is a rather important datapoint for me so please tell me you have it...

  19. #659
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I went out on a date with an ESI today. Another ESI date that was supposed to be just lunch but instead lasted eight hours. This keeps happening to me. It seems to happen only with ESIs, though.

    We had lunch and walked through a park. She has the excellent taste in clothes that most ESIs have. She seemed pretty comfortable around me. She told me that the guy she had been seeing liked to walk too close to her. He also wanted to know too much about her, which she did not like. Me, I was just out for a nice lunch and some exercise in -hopefully- pleasant company.

    She said that she's lower middle class, and then just stared at me. After a minute, I told her I might be upper middle class.

    I've never had a woman tell me that before. It was a strange thing to bring up.

    I liked her, but now I'm wondering if that will be a problem.
    Whether or not you are "upper" or "lower" middle class is immaterial. What will truly matter is how you're going to approach future relationship goals.

    I'd also ask you to provide her version of events that lead her to believe her potential paramour "wanted to know too much about her" as she put it.

    Yes this ties into attachment theory and I am yet again wanting to see how right I'm getting it. Again, my ultimate theory/assertion remains and I'm still trying to prove Leo Tolstoy as an idiot on this front. Brilliant writer and all, but still missed something patently obvious to the likes of me!

    Sin makes you stupid. Unhappiness springs from sin. Dumb everyone down enough and they are all but mere moist robots with easily manipulatable algorithms and the like. I could go on but I'm pretty sure I've laid out the major problem for most of us. So much unhappiness can and is directly linkable to how and why the world is so fucked up.

    Because, unlike Tolstoy's assertion, it is unhappy people who are all the friggin' same. Not the happy ones...

  20. #660
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,229
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Whether or not you are "upper" or "lower" middle class is immaterial. What will truly matter is how you're going to approach future relationship goals.

    I'd also ask you to provide her version of events that lead her to believe her potential paramour "wanted to know too much about her" as she put it.

    Yes this ties into attachment theory and I am yet again wanting to see how right I'm getting it. Again, my ultimate theory/assertion remains and I'm still trying to prove Leo Tolstoy as an idiot on this front. Brilliant writer and all, but still missed something patently obvious to the likes of me!

    Sin makes you stupid. Unhappiness springs from sin. Dumb everyone down enough and they are all but mere moist robots with easily manipulatable algorithms and the like. I could go on but I'm pretty sure I've laid out the major problem for most of us. So much unhappiness can and is directly linkable to how and why the world is so fucked up.

    Because, unlike Tolstoy's assertion, it is unhappy people who are all the friggin' same. Not the happy ones...
    @End, I think he liked her more than she liked him. At least, that's the impression I got. I also think that he didn't like her the way she wanted to be liked. According to her, he was just looking for an attractive GF because he posted a lot of pictures of her on Facebook and bragged about her to his friends, while she's looking for someone to build a future with.

    She's just really suspicious of people, but she probably has reason to be. She said that a neighbor kid told her that he'd cut her lawn for free, and then sent a dick pic to her phone. She laughed and said to me "It was my first dick pic. I showed it to the women I work with." So she's got that Aggressor Se, and she said the kid was harmless. I told her that she wasn't going to get one of those from me, and she laughed again and said that was all right.

    I think that happens to a lot of women, especially if they are attractive.

  21. #661
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    The Netherlands
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 2w1-5 SX/so
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I was upfront and honest with the LIE girl, told her I'm not the guy she's looking for. I was worried about even sending the message for a while but I pressed send. A while later she thanked me for the heads up and appreciated the honesty and we unmatched. I learned a little lesson in being direct and not being too much into my own feelings about it lol, easier than I thought.
    Naturally, because you're doing both her and yourself a favour by being upfront about your (lack of) feelings for her. As LIEs we have many ambitions and a lot to do in life, including helping others solve their problems, hence we are ever struggling to muster enough time to do everything that we feel we need to do. Dating we find especially hard, because as inferior Fi appreciators, we are almost completely naive as to if someone actually like likes us. I can tell easily if someone wants to hang out and be friends, but I am utterly clueless as to if someone would actually be interested into me romantically. Of course, in my case it's compounded by being gay and it's a game of roulette with an 1:19 odds ratio of them being gay to find out if I even have a chance of them like liking me. I thus do the statistically prudent thing and presume that every individual I meet is straight, unless they explicitly tell me otherwise.
    The last time that I trusted my Ni to figure out if someone was gay, I thought that he was for writing "top" as his WhatsApp profile status, but it turned out to refer to the Deutsche/Dutch meaning of "great" instead of the sexual position. I did get a really good Friend out of approaching him, though.

    I thus completely rely on dating applications for dates, which leave much to desire. After the whole drama with that last date, I have uninstalled them all and just focus on myself for the time being. After I finished my psychology bachelor I joined a Gym and have been going there increasingly, in order to just clear my head and work on myself. It's the only activity that I undertake purely for myself.

    I'm restructuring my life to focus more on the quality of my friendships and family relations and to sort out which ones really matter to me (Fi). Previously I also maintained a decent quality of contact with everyone, but I did not spend especially a lot of time with anyone in particular, hence the degree of closeness always left something to be desired. In addition, I frequently was short on time for my own projects and deadlines, because I have ever been so budy helping others. Presently I'm pruning my relations with only three close Friends who I plan to see about weekly, and my Grandma, my old Neighbours, who are like Family to me, and a Family Friend monthly. Everyone else I am clustering many people into larger groups, such as my high school friends, my psychology and statistics friends, because in the group discussions we discuss the same topics as individually, unlike with my closest Friends. These groups I plan on seeing every quarter after my exams and before the start of the next study block. Everyone else I would only see during the Christmas or summer vacation from now on.

    I also unsubscribed from my political party and political youth party, because with my statistics master I already didn't have time to be active with them last academic year and neither shall I this upcoming year. I remain a member of the youth North Atlantic treaty organization (NATO) club and my psychology study association, because with them I can attend individual lectures whenever they interest and suit me, whilst with the political parties I had to commit to a biweekly schedule and work on projects in between the meetings.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I went out on a date with an ESI today. Another ESI date that was supposed to be just lunch but instead lasted eight hours. This keeps happening to me. It seems to happen only with ESIs, though.
    Hahaha, and even when you wrap things up after a long day and say your goodbyes to each other, do you also already look out for the next occassion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    We had lunch and walked through a park. She has the excellent taste in clothes that most ESIs have.
    They make it look effortless, because even in their daily outfit they look stellar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    She said that I tipped the waitress too much. I told her that the waitress was living on tips, because they usually aren't even paid minimum wage.
    America is going to crash and burn like the dying dinosaur that it is, due to this increasing exploitation. One day the people will revolt, but they will be harshly beaten down again by the corrupted police forces, military, and judicial system, in order to reassert the status quo of the rich getting richer. I would not be surprised that at that point Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos would be making a small fortune on the civil war, similar as to how they did during the COVID-19 pandemic. This time they would be selling police and military drones to the political-military-industrial complex for the civil war that they themselves have to be protected from. America has been so thoroughly corrupted that small scale insurgencies will continue to erupt like chronic inflammation. We have already seen this pattern being established with the black lives matter movement clashing with the white supremacists and with the Capitol Riot. But no-one will be able to topple over the current regime and thus no actual change will be achieved, unlike during the previous American Civil War or the French Revolution. Odds are that this next American Civil War may end like the Arabic Spring.

    Global Warming will only quicken the pace of impoverishment of the American people, hence I expect our worst nightmares about the collapse of the American hegemony to have been fully realized in ten to twenty years, and sooner if Trump gets re-elected or one of his offspring is elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    She said "I guess if you earn a lot, you can spend a lot." It was a flat statement, but it sounded like a criticism.
    It's not criticism, it's envy. What's her profession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Later, as I was getting ready to drive home, she said that she's lower middle class, and then just stared at me. After a minute, I told her I might be upper middle class. I thanked her for a great day and kissed her. She didn't object, but she was watching me kiss her.

    I've never had a woman tell me that before. It was a strange thing to bring up.

    I liked her, but now I'm wondering if that will be a problem.

    ESI e6 = Doubt, personified.
    She has a marked financial inferiority complex. She feels insecure about her income compared to yours, similar as to how your ESI e6 gardener felt inferior to you when you told your income to her. This is the very reason why discussing money is taboo in the Netherlands.
    You will have to discuss her financial inferiority complex in a subtle manner on your third date or later, if you want to make this work. Explain to her what values and characteristics are important to you for a lover and that income is not your concern, but if someone is willing to put in the hard work.



    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    I'd argue it was because this man was... Ok now I'm a bit confused. The Step-Father ILI was the one they turned to in times of crisis despite knowing he wasn't their true father right? This is a rather important datapoint for me so please tell me you have it...
    Yes, he was both his Children and his Wife tower of strength, because he retained his cool and solved the problem, whilst their Mother went into panic mode and their biological fathers were generally unavailable. They were aware that he was not their biological father, because the Children retained occassional contact with their biological fathers, because their Mother deemed this important.
    Last edited by Armitage; 07-19-2022 at 10:02 AM.

  22. #662

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Armitage the SLE guy I spent some time with had a history of thieving. Remember you told me about the SLE thief you knew (hope I'm remembering correctly) and I said I knew an SLE RE teacher...he probably wasn't SLE lol. More likely ESE.

    I had a couple of dates recently with SLEs who were hard to type at first. I think it can happen on dating apps that you're drawn to people who seem interesting but you don't really fancy them. Something about them reminds them of yourself. So I had some dates with SLEs who seemed insecure or were open about past insecurities. I don't wanna go into detail though. OCD/ anxiety were mentioned- and these are things I have relalated to in my life a lot. They were nice...but also not nice..the first guy and I basically argued the whole way through our second date and we didn't really realise we were doing it until too late. There was a lot of misunderstanding. Typical avoident/ anxious attachment style clash. He could have been E6.

    As for seeing similarities in SEE/LSE, well when it comes to the thinker/feeler benefit pairs..I find these pairs interesting to compare. Their essence/ the image of them in my mind seems..similar. It makes me realise how different the types can be yet how similar. It forces me to not have type predjudice. They are both rowdy and like to control things lol. They both like to please?

    I guess they both have strong se too.

  23. #663

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    She said that I tipped the waitress too much. I told her that the waitress was living on tips, because they usually aren't even paid minimum wage. She said "I guess if you earn a lot, you can spend a lot." It was a flat statement, but it sounded like a criticism.
    I think it's better to get this stuff out in the open. She's trying to figure you out. I had an argument with my current IEE bestie recently and after it I thought oh gosh she just doesn't get me because she's too middle class (PHD, private school). Of course we sorted it out and I realised that it's not really a class issue, (she spends a lot of time helping people a lot less fortunate than her and she's seen enough to not be ignorant about inequality). It was more that I was letting her run the show a bit too much in the friendship..me looking up to her as she is a little older and more sophisticated.

    One of the most annoying things the mean SEI did to me was withhold the fact he went to one of the most elite private schools in the country. People of a lower class do not want people of a higher class/ social status to pity them. (If there is pity, this leaves room for them to feel like they have authority over you?) We want to be sure that people see our true worth, and to do that we need to be sure that you have a good understanding of how inequality works. It just exists..but it doesn't have to divide two individuals. My friend withholding that from me, felt like he was trying to trick me into trusting him. And it worked- it made me way too vulnerable around him (not just the school thing, but he in general doesn't fully accept his white, male, midddle class privilege yet...not there yet.) This made him extremely defensive as a person and attention-seeking, also patronising..controlling in a way- not letting other people be his equal in conversation or in my case..getting away with harassment.

    Adam- you do not strike me as arrogant. Hopefully, she'll see this.

    I don't know about relationships between people of different classes- minor differences are fine. Most of the people I've thought of as having long term potential are of a similar background to me. If you have both achieved your potential in life it might be less of an issue.
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 07-19-2022 at 11:40 AM.

  24. #664
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,229
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I think it's better to get this stuff out in the open. She's trying to figure you out. I had an argument with my current IEE bestie recently and after it I thought oh gosh she just doesn't get me because she's too middle class (PHD, private school). Of course we sorted it out and I realised that it's not really a class issue, (she spends a lot of time helping people a lot less fortunate than her and she's seen enough to not be ignorant about inequality). It was more that I was letting her run the show a bit too much in the friendship..me looking up to her as she is a little older and more sophisticated.

    One of the most annoying things the mean SEI did to me was withhold the fact he went to one of the most elite private schools in the country. People of a lower class do not want people of a higher class/ social status to pity them. (If there is pity, this leaves room for them to feel like they have authority over you?) We want to be sure that people see our true worth, and to do that we need to be sure that you have a good understanding of how inequality works. It just exists..but it doesn't have to divide two individuals. My friend withholding that from me, felt like he was trying to trick me into trusting him. And it worked- it made me way too vulnerable around him (not just the school thing, but he in general doesn't fully accept his white, male, midddle class privilege yet...not there yet. This made him extremely defensive as a person and attention-seeking..controlling in a way- not letting other people be his equal in conversation or my case..getting away with harassment.

    Adam- you do not strike me as arrogant. Hopefully, she'll see this.

    I don't know about relationships between people of different classes- minor differences are fine. Most of the people I've thought of as having long term potential are of a similar background to me. If you have both achieved your potential in life it might be less of an issue.
    @Bethany, class exists in America, but it is less important in the States than it seems to be in other countries. But it still exists, and it is key to having a good life. Most Americans would like to rise in class if they can, but they are absolutely terrified of falling in class, because that is basically a social death sentence. In the States, if you fall below a certain line, maybe by accident or a health emergency, you can’t get back up.

    It is interesting to compare my ESI-Se interior decorator with this latest ESI.

    The ESI-Se grew up with a lawyer father and a psychologist mother. They had a designer home on ten or fifteen acres of land with a small lake, and she had two horses as a teenager. She will never be rich in her own life (unless she marries an LIE. ESIs just don’t think about money in the way that LIEs do), but she can be flat broke, living with her aunt, and give the impression that she has a million dollars behind her. That’s the influence of her class.

    In contrast, the ESI that I just dated grew up poor. Her family was working class (so was mine) but was not able to send her to college. She is working at a job that doesn’t pay well and is fearful about changing jobs, because the next one could be worse.
    One of the things we did was to take some of her old dishes to a consignment store, where she was hoping to sell them. I looked around the place and was dismayed at all the junk.
    As we were leaving, she told me that she would never buy anything new again, because everything you need is available used. I replied that everything in that store was hideous. She asked, “What would you do?” (for furniture).
    I said that I’d wait until I could afford to buy something just right. It might be more expensive, but I’d only have to buy it once.

    @Armitage was right. She is very conscious of her lack of money, while the ESI-Se actually has less money, but seems to have more because of her self-assurance and training. The ESI-Se has a million subtle ways (and doesn’t know it) that indicate she came from money.

    The ESI from the poor background and I are actually closer in our attitudes towards life. She said that she loves kids, and so do I, while the ESI-Se is very unsure about having children. It’s too bad the ESI is too old to have kids.

  25. #665

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Adam Strange interesting points, I think I was also thinking of the comment she made about being lower-middle class..and how she stared at you when you said you were upper middle class. I often bring up being working class on dates, I don't know why, it just seems to come up. (I don't know it is the same though, like you say class has different type of significance in different places). I can see she is conscious of money, especially as she commented on your tip (which was a nice thing to do)..I guess if people lose touch of what it means not to have money..that could be unattractive. Doesn't seem like she's after your money anyway- SLEs often imply that I am haha. I'm like...no babe, there are more important things

    as a woman I might be wary of a man who was wealthy/ materialistic..because I don’t want to be thought of as something that can be bought, I don’t want a guy to think he can win me over with his ‘success’. I just want them to be nice and observe my qualities.
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 07-19-2022 at 12:38 PM.

  26. #666
    Moderator myresearch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    2,043
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    People of a lower class do not want people of a higher class/ social status to pity them. (If there is pity, this leaves room for them to feel like they have authority over you?) We want to be sure that people see our true worth, and to do that we need to be sure that you have a good understanding of how inequality works. It just exists..but it doesn't have to divide two individuals.
    True for some cases. Not all lower class people want to show that they are from lower class and established a mutual understanding in that regard, some can hide it because they can get pitied, and some may want to show it due to take advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    One of the most annoying things the mean SEI did to me was withhold the fact he went to one of the most elite private schools in the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    My friend withholding that from me, felt like he was trying to trick me into trusting him. And it worked- it made me way too vulnerable around him (not just the school thing, but he in general doesn't fully accept his white, male, midddle class privilege yet...not there yet.) This made him extremely defensive as a person and attention-seeking, also patronising..controlling in a way- not letting other people be his equal in conversation or in my case..getting away with harassment.
    As a person who interacted with all different classes all my life, I must say that at the end, there are always a higher and lower class. X person may pity Y person, get pitied by Z. A person may think B is privileged when B thinks the same about C,etc.

    So some higher class person may not want show they are coming from that background to someone at a lower class due to similar reasoning above because they dont want to see that everything they do in life happens because they are privileged in the eyes of other. . Sometimes they hide in order to prevent the attempt to get advantaged. Sometimes some show in order to establish mutual understanding and some show to establish some kind of authority over you.


    Since this person hided, I dont think he hided to attain some kind of control and patronize you in this kind of class aspect. But ofcourse he can be controlling and patronizing, I am just saying that I dont see any link between.

  27. #667
    Moderator myresearch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    2,043
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I went out on a date with an ESI today. Another ESI date that was supposed to be just lunch but instead lasted eight hours. This keeps happening to me. It seems to happen only with ESIs, though.

    We had lunch and walked through a park. She has the excellent taste in clothes that most ESIs have. She seemed pretty comfortable around me. She told me that the guy she had been seeing liked to walk too close to her. He also wanted to know too much about her, which she did not like. Me, I was just out for a nice lunch and some exercise in -hopefully- pleasant company.

    She said that I tipped the waitress too much. I told her that the waitress was living on tips, because they usually aren't even paid minimum wage. She said "I guess if you earn a lot, you can spend a lot." It was a flat statement, but it sounded like a criticism.

    Later, as I was getting ready to drive home, she said that she's lower middle class, and then just stared at me. After a minute, I told her I might be upper middle class. I thanked her for a great day and kissed her. She didn't object, but she was watching me kiss her.

    I've never had a woman tell me that before. It was a strange thing to bring up.

    I liked her, but now I'm wondering if that will be a problem.

    ESI e6 = Doubt, personified.
    I also think it is a strange thing to bring up. But a guy that started with me got all insecure when he find out I was in a higher background, although we worked in the same company and probably get similar salaries. He brought it up in more subtle ways than your ESI. I was ok with it first and made sure that I showed that but then it started show up again and again.

    I am sure that he wasnt after anything, because a person who is after your money wouldnt bring it up or got insecure over that. She maybe thinks this is not going to work out or you may not be into her because of this so she brought it up.

    However, I noticed that if a person is really insecure in this area then it becomes a problem, it became like that for me but it wasnt the only thing that made me end things.

    So I think this is a thing you could see in time. Can she adjust or is she gonna make everything about this.
    Last edited by myresearch; 07-19-2022 at 01:07 PM.

  28. #668

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post

    I totally agree with you that that guy was a completely immature jerk, but I don't get the impression that he wanted to "teach" Dreymagine his viewpoint, because he couldn't empathize with hers. Instead I think that he took out his frustration on Dreymagine for not living up to his impossible ideals. The fact that he mentions "all those other girls who he deems boring" shows a problem with him, because he rapidly rejects women in series, as none live up to his too high standards. Instead of adjusting his standards he takes the frustration of his repeated failures out onto the women he dates. He failed and will continue failing to court women, because by blaming others for his mistakes he will never learn.

    I think when people name call/ make personalattacks it is a way to make themself feel superior in the moment..'I am right because you are wrong..you are this therefore you are wrong..' but name calling and personal attacks can make people feel really inferior...he's putting someone down to make himself feel good? to make himself feel like his point ofview is the correct one? because the alternative is to actually consider that he might be wrong..and that would emasculate him. (So yeah he can't get on board with women being different and having something to bring to the table?) I am happy to be wrong about this...not confident in this view lol

  29. #669

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Since this person hided, I dont think he hided to attain some kind of control and patronize you in this kind of class aspect. But ofcourse he can be controlling and patronizing, I am just saying that I dont see any link between.
    I agree with your points

    it's hard...because I cared for this person and to this day I'm torn over whether he cared for me or just played me for a fool. I may need some more months to reflect. When you care for someone but they hurt you, you can't see everything clearly. I know he didn't hide it intentionally to trick me into trusting him..when he eventually told me and someone else, he seemed embarrassed by it. But he seems to want it all..he is both insecure about his elite education as well as feeling like he is not as good or clever or successful as the people he went to school with..he was a 'scholarship' kid (but you still pay some fees, just not all ) He wants respect/acceptance but also admiration..

    If you want to be a decent colleague/ friend..people with privilege have to get over themselves. They have to be comfortable with feeling a bit stupid at times- or they'll only ever be concerned with their status and not how they actually treat people. You have to be willing to make mistakes and learn from them, not make excuses when things go wrong. I guess he doesn't really belong in the job, was just passing through. But he may go on to work with young women/ young people from all sorts of backgrounds..so it's good if he eventually realises that he doesn't he doesn't need to impress people all the time..people don't like a show off.

    Lol he wasn't right for me, was he These characters that come into your life...they teach you what you really value, hopefully to be more tolerant in the long run too

    edit: also it was a case of me being more naive/not confident..and him being four years younger than me..strange dynamic

  30. #670
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    The Netherlands
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 2w1-5 SX/so
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    @Armitage the SLE guy I spent some time with had a history of thieving. Remember you told me about the SLE thief you knew (hope I'm remembering correctly)
    You remember this correctly. I have dealt with the guy since, but if he again tries to circumvent my phone block by using a different phone number, I shall have to change my phone number. I think that I shall do so anyway, in order to feel secure again and shall inform my contacts about my new number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    and I said I knew an SLE RE teacher...he probably wasn't SLE lol. More likely ESE.
    I remember you discussing this teacher, yes, but I do not recall what a "RE teacher" is?
    Based on what behaviours did you change your sociotyping of him from SLE to ESE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    So I had some dates with SLEs who seemed insecure or were open about past insecurities. I don't wanna go into detail though. OCD/ anxiety were mentioned- and these are things I have relalated to in my life a lot.
    Wait, a SLE opening up about their insecurities? What witchcraft is this?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    They were nice...but also not nice..the first guy and I basically argued the whole way through our second date and we didn't really realise we were doing it until too late. There was a lot of misunderstanding. Typical avoident/ anxious attachment style clash. He could have been E6.
    Would you be willing to elaborate more on what a SLE e6 behaves like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    They are both rowdy and like to control things lol. They both like to please?
    I guess they both have strong se too.
    All true, but these descriptions seem to touch only upon some of the type characteristics, because I immediately think of order, structure, protocol, tradition, and by the book when thinking of LSEs, while I think of spotaneity, impulsivity, disorganizedness, people's person, and "I write my own rules!" mentality when thinking of SEEs. In my experience, these sociotypes exhibit very different behavioural styles, which makes them feel more different than similar in my mind, besides the extrovert attitude that they have in common.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Bethany, class exists in America, but it is less important in the States than it seems to be in other countries. But it still exists, and it is key to having a good life. Most Americans would like to rise in class if they can, but they are absolutely terrified of falling in class, because that is basically a social death sentence. In the States, if you fall below a certain line, maybe by accident or a health emergency, you can’t get back up.
    It might be less important than in other countries, such as in China, but it definitely is more important than in Europe, because of the very reasons that you just described. In America there exists a financial event horizon after which one is relegated to a lifetime of poverty. There exists no social welfare, healthcare aid only covers a fraction of what is actually needed, and minimum wage is below the living standard and oftentimes only applies to civil servants, but not to employees in other sectors. America is essentially a cyberpunk novel that writes itself; it is an extremely militant and imperialistic nation with high technology, including military drones, it uses mass surveillance to spy upon its enemies, allies, and even its own citizens, the populace is oppressed and exploited by the wealthy, who pay essentially no taxes, and the democratic and judicial systems are thoroughly corrupted by the megacorporations as part of the political-military-industrial complex. Washington only serves the rich, as the oligarchs finance the super PACs that decide who gets into power. One dollar, one vote. America is broken beyond repair by BIG TECH, BIG PHARMA, and BIG GUNS. It is the dream of Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos come true, but the nightmare of the common people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    In contrast, the ESI that I just dated grew up poor. Her family was working class (so was mine) but was not able to send her to college. She is working at a job that doesn’t pay well and is fearful about changing jobs, because the next one could be worse.
    One of the things we did was to take some of her old dishes to a consignment store, where she was hoping to sell them. I looked around the place and was dismayed at all the junk.
    As we were leaving, she told me that she would never buy anything new again, because everything you need is available used. I replied that everything in that store was hideous. She asked, “What would you do?” (for furniture).
    I said that I’d wait until I could afford to buy something just right. It might be more expensive, but I’d only have to buy it once.
    Have you discussed Boots theory with her yet?

    "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

    Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

    But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."


    ― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Armitage was right. She is very conscious of her lack of money, while the ESI-Se actually has less money, but seems to have more because of her self-assurance and training.
    By now you should know that I'm always right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    The ESI-Se has a million subtle ways (and doesn’t know it) that indicate she came from money. The ESI from the poor background and I are actually closer in our attitudes towards life. She said that she loves kids, and so do I, while the ESI-Se is very unsure about having children.
    Also, the ESI-Se is gay, which makes it outlandish to compare your date to her anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It’s too bad the ESI is too old to have kids.
    Could you elaborate for me please as to why it is so important to you to conceive children together? As a gay guy who has resigned to his plight of not fathering any children I have a hard time understanding why you would want to conceive more children, since you already have a son? Is it because conceiving children is seen as the seal of a good marriage, the cherry on top of the cake?



    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I think when people name call/ make personalattacks it is a way to make themself feel superior in the moment..'I am right because you are wrong..you are this therefore you are wrong..' but name calling and personal attacks can make people feel really inferior...he's putting someone down to make himself feel good? to make himself feel like his point ofview is the correct one? because the alternative is to actually consider that he might be wrong..and that would emasculate him. (So yeah he can't get on board with women being different and having something to bring to the table?) I am happy to be wrong about this...not confident in this view lol
    I apologize in advance for making you unhappy then, because you are right about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I know he didn't hide it intentionally to trick me into trusting him..when he eventually told me and someone else, he seemed embarrassed by it. But he seems to want it all..he is both insecure about his elite education as well as feeling like he is not as good or clever or successful as the people he went to school with..he was a 'scholarship' kid (but you still pay some fees, just not all ) He wants respect/acceptance but also admiration..
    This to me sounds like he actually wanted to leave the past in the past. He did not want people to know about him having studied at this elitist private college out of fear that you would see him as trying to one up you, guys. Social class is not an objective, but a relative standard. He might be amongst the top in the United Kingdom, but at his college he belonged to the bottom, because he entered through a scholarship instead of his parents wealth. He knows how it feels to be relegated to a lower social class, even though he never experienced what it means to have little money. He didn't want to give the impression that he felt better than you, because he has felt it himself with his college peers showing off to him. Due to not fitting in with his peers, he also has internalized a feeling of unworthiness for having attended this prestigious college. He not only has come to see himself as less than them financially, but also generalized it to apply to his intelligence and successfulness. That's why he was ashamed to tell you about his tuition, in order to not come across as an arrogant braggart, as well as for feeling inferior to his college peers.

    I don't believe that he hid this information for you out of malice, but that he held the topic off as long as possible, in order to avoid awkwardness between you guys.
    Last edited by Armitage; 07-19-2022 at 08:12 PM.

  31. #671

    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Posts
    631
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post




    Why, what characterizes holographic-projecting (H-P) cognition?



    Holographical-Panoramic Cognition

    In cognitive theory, the third cognitive form is the least studied: it is analytic, negative, and inductive. The provisional name of this style is Holographical-Panoramic. 'Holograph' originates from the Ancient Greek words holos "entire, whole" and grapho "write". This name is derived from the Holographist's ability to densely pack information via method of 'like to, similar' analogy. Sociotypes possessing this form are SLE, LII, IEE, ESI (ESTp, INTj, ENFp, ISFj, respectively)

    As Statics, Holographers attain reliable precision of thought. As Negativists they periodically turn the object of thought to its opposite side. As Involutionary types, they sporadically change the angle of examination or criterion of judgment.

    Intellectual Sphere

    This cognitive style has much in common with the holographic principle in physics. A hologram (optical) is a statistically recorded interference pattern made by two beams of light which are transmitted and reflected from a single source. Holographic technology allows us to obtain a three-dimensional image of an object. The hologram itself is an aggregation of stripes and spots exactly resembling the embedded object. The two beams of light are superimposed in such a way that every part of the hologram carries information about the whole.

    In this way, by mentally superimposing multiple projections of the same object, Holographists reach a holistic view. To do this, they look at the image and select a desired angle of examination. Holographic cognition often utilizes the grammatical conjunctives: "or-or", "either-or", "on the one hand, on the other hand". It actively uses the principle of perspective; unrestricted choice in point of view. The holographic approach is a progressive approximation towards the purpose, or away from it, accompanied by changes of perspective. The holographic process is carried out as if calibrating focus.

    Holographic cognition has a characteristic penetrating, skeletal-revealing, 'x-ray' nature. It unhesitatingly cuts away details and nuances, giving a coarsely generalized representation of the subject. Take for example the two orthogonal cross-sections of a cylinder: the horizontal section looks like a circle, and the vertical section looks like a rectangle. Two different perspectives of an indivisible whole which, when superimposed in the mind, produces transition to a higher level of understanding about the object.

    SLE thinks this way in battle. Analyzing the situation, they simplify it to two or three facets (frontal, flank, and/or rear), but then quickly go to a higher tier of understanding. LII grasps the problem from opposite sides, mentally rotating the situation in three dimensions around its semantic axes. ESI first draws near to a person, then moves away, seeming to probe the individual from all sides, cutting off those who could let them down. IEE detects the possible hidden motivations of a person, as if building their psychological 'hologram'.

    The main advantages of Holographic cognition are as follows. First, it is multi-perspective. As already stated, because of this it attains a dimensionally holistic and complete depiction. Second, it values simplicity and clarity, avoids pretentiousness, and forgoes 'bells and whistles'. Holographists are particularly effective in crisis situations, when it is necessary to make decisions quickly, and there is no time to weigh all the details.

    The obvious disadvantage of this cognitive style is that it appears too rough, lacking adequate consideration to details which become important when a process flows smoothly. Its information-dense constructs are often difficult to decompress and unpack; to outsiders, they may seem void of intermediate links for establishing coherency in their connections.

    According to Aristotle, Holographic cognition corresponds to explanation by structural or formative causes. Aristotle called it the structure of form. Returning to the sculptor example, the cause of the sculpture is its latent form, which the sculptor merely sets free by cutting away excess marble.

    Social Sphere

    A vague idea of the holographic concept was expressed by Gottfried Leibniz's "Monadology". His monad, a microcosmic reflection of the whole world order, is analogous to a hologram. Ecologists regularly turned to it in attempting to understand why there is stability in nature. Relationships between living and non-living nature arising in a given territory causes biogeocenosis, or ecosystem formation. Ecosystems are primarily characterized by equilibrium of self-similarity over time, where long-term coexistence of opposites without merging (synthesis) is observed. Therefore, Static prevails over Dynamic in such communities. Therein lies the fundamental law of homeostasis in the ecosystem.

    General systems theory was later formed on the basis of these ideas. It was founded by Austrian biologist Ludwig von Bertalanffy, who introduced the concept of open systems, which exchange matter, energy, and information with the environment, thus resisting destabilization.

    While Determinists attempt to explain the behavior of a system by its component parts and interconnections, Holographists find novel qualities illustrating emergent features in it that cannot be accounted for solely from its internal structure. Therefore, the Holographical paradigm can generally be called a systemic-ecological worldview.

    Contemporary 'green' ideology is an epitomization of this cognitive form. This does not in any way imply that the ideologues of this movement are Holographical types—cognitive styles and proclaimed viewpoints may not necessarily coincide! Manifestations of one cognitive style through another are completely typical. The books of "quantum psychologist" Robert Anton Wilson are a good example of this, in which his Dialectical-Algorithmic form is laden with multi-perspective, holographic content [5].

    Psychological Sphere

    Holographical cognition corresponds to a stable, self-possessed psyche resistant to conditioning. In comparing the conditionability of an LSI psyche to its Involutionary Mirror SLE, observation shows that the degree of psychological resistance is much higher in the latter. How is this explained? By the durable cognitive infrastructure on which it is built. Complete panorama, which allows periodic change of perspective on the subject. Good balance between the immune and nervous systems, as well as the primary sense organs.

    In neuro-linguistic programming, this principle is used in a technique called 'reframing'. Reframing changes the perceptual framework contextualizing an event. If we mentally place a familiar object into an unfamiliar context, then significance of the whole situation changes. For example, imagine a tiger first in a jungle, then in a zoo cage, then on the balcony of your apartment. The standard Socionics type is depicted as immersed in its 'club'. But what if you shift it to quadra? What if it turns out to be among types with opposite cognitive styles? The chain can continue indefinitely.

    With reframing it is possible to see the familiar with fresh eyes. The type of the psyche in one who resorts to this technique remains constant of course, only their subjective relation to the object of attention is changed. The benefit of this method is primarily in the fact that new perspectives emphasize aspects of a situation that may have been previously underestimated, allowing the possibility of discovering new avenues of growth, and expanding one's existing range of choices.


    Scientific Sphere

    A real-life physical model of this multi-perspective intellect is the hologram—a superimposition of multiple images where each one can only be seen when looking at a certain angle. Change of perspective occurs intermittently and does not alter the system itself, only its priorities. In this way, multiple standards can be implemented, making it possible to work with a complex system as if it were a simple sequence.

    Another real-life prototype of Holographical cognition are fractal objects, discovered by mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot in the 1970s. Geometrically, fractals are figures with diffuse outlines, possessing self-similar internal structures. For example, trees, snowflakes, coastlines, etc. They are characterized by multiple internal forms similar in principle to nesting-dolls. Like a hologram, any fragment of a fractal contains complete information about the entire fractal. The part is always structurally similar to the whole.

    Socionics types are also like fractal objects. Hence my holographic concept of personality as a nested system of types, one inside another [4]. Which opposes the prevailing flat view of Socionics advocated by people with reductionist thinking.
    Basically, she was reframing how ESIs process things differently under the contexts of being different enneatypes, and also how perspective of Ne changes depending on whether you're Ne PoLR or not.
    Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 07-20-2022 at 09:50 AM.

  32. #672
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @End, I think he liked her more than she liked him. At least, that's the impression I got. I also think that he didn't like her the way she wanted to be liked. According to her, he was just looking for an attractive GF because he posted a lot of pictures of her on Facebook and bragged about her to his friends, while she's looking for someone to build a future with.

    She's just really suspicious of people, but she probably has reason to be. She said that a neighbor kid told her that he'd cut her lawn for free, and then sent a dick pic to her phone. She laughed and said to me "It was my first dick pic. I showed it to the women I work with." So she's got that Aggressor Se, and she said the kid was harmless. I told her that she wasn't going to get one of those from me, and she laughed again and said that was all right.

    I think that happens to a lot of women, especially if they are attractive.
    The first story is pure desperate seeking of outside approval/validation from others that ultimately don't matter if we're really getting down to it. Predictable.

    The second story makes me question the age of the sender of the dick pick. Sounds like a childish prank out of someone who is way younger than the victim. This raises other questions but they too rely on this point of data. Were they much younger than the girl they sent the pic to?

  33. #673
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    Have you discussed Boots theory with her yet?

    "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

    Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

    But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."


    ― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play
    My good sir, anyone who fails to mention this iron law of reality to their potential paramour is plain and simply doing it all wrong. I used this very example on my LSE mom and she finally allowed herself to splurge on a Kitchenaid appliance she'd been longing for yet had the mindset of that dumb ESI Adam mentioned. She looked at the sticker price and said "That's too much!" and I said, "No. No it's not and here's why. So just get over yourself and buy it damnit!"

    See, it's pure logic. Spend more upfront for a thing you'll never have to replace within a given timeframe is pretty much always going to outdo/perform the thing that is cheap "right now" but will almost certainly have to be replaced before a given timeframe has passed.

    She bought it and continues to be quite happy she did.

    Sadly, Mr. Vimes is tragically correct on the front he touches upon. In many a case, the poor fucker who cannot afford the better (in every way that matters) yet significantly more expensive boots is in such a bad position that they simply must buy the inferior boots or else tread barefoot upon a field of caltrops metaphorically speaking.

    This is why it's a theory of socioeconomic unfairness/injustice. Yeah, he/she wants to buy the better boots and obviously wants to. However, if your choices are buy shitty boots that keep you from eating sole impaling caltrops for a few meters more or literally driving what amounts to nails all the way through your own feet for however long it takes to get your potentially hamburgerized/swiss cheesed/etc. feet into them (whereupon you're more in need of a good pair of prosthetics over a good pair of boots), well, what choice do you have?

  34. #674
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    Yes, he was both his Children and his Wife tower of strength, because he retained his cool and solved the problem, whilst their Mother went into panic mode and their biological fathers were generally unavailable. They were aware that he was not their biological father, because the Children retained occassional contact with their biological fathers, because their Mother deemed this important.
    Also according to my theories and predictions. A healthy and secure ILI who knew his duty the moment he happened upon it and resigned himself to it. The mother and children would not and could not ever really have a chance at healing themselves if he did not intervene.

    The bit about the mother deeming interaction with the biological fathers was correct but from an angle she and they probably didn't think about. See, there is the potential that if a broken individual finally gets to see how a secure individual acts they might just start to put it all together. It's also a final "Hail Mary" pass. Maybe finally seeing this rando making his kids happier than he ever managed will get him to realize something important! They ain't even his own biologically related kids and yet for at least ten minutes a day he turns off all their collective screens and is just there for them. For at least a mere 10 minutes a day each of them get his full, unconditional, and undivided attention. An attention focused on fulfilling any and all reasonable and healthy needs they may have. Hugs, kisses, actual willingness to share some form of interest in something they find compelling...

    If some random fucker can do that than why can't he? It's clearly all they want after all. This is the formula for pretty much guaranteeing your progeny develop secure attachment. A mere 10 minutes a day for each child. If you can't even manage that than what kind of parent are you?

    Basically, he did what I would have done in that situation. Provided said "single" mother proved to me she wasn't among the "lost" as I so often put it. If she demonstrated to me that she actually believed things could be so much better I'd settle for it. If not, well, I am a rather cold-hearted SoB. Lost mothers produce lost children. If she refuses to be saved there is little chance I can save her children. Better to invest my efforts and time into a woman who actually wants and accepts my earnest and heartfelt aid...

  35. #675
    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    The Netherlands
    TIM
    LIE-Ni 2w1-5 SX/so
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    If some random fucker can do that than why can't he?
    "he" as in the biological father?

  36. #676

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Armitage

    gosh, sorry about the SLE guy..sorry if you have to change your number but might be worth it


    RE teacher= religious education teacher. He looked like Superman (the famous SLE actor-Christopher Reeves) so I thought he might be SLE. Maybe it’s not actually Christopher Reeves he looked like, but another superman actor hahaha. He was very very popular with the kids. Again, I think thinker/feeler benefit pairs can have surface level similarities (SLE demand attention!). Maybe there is something similar about the way they view morality. IEI and LII have strong conviction in their sense of morality..SEE and LSE believe in their own good intentions and ability to make amends for things they do wrong.


    Yes, re SEI guy I probably thought a lot of the things you said about him at one point or another..(or something similar, I certainly felt an affinity with him, it just hurts that I don’t know if he felt that about me) it will make more sense to me as time goes on, on a bad day I still feel traumatised by the way this person treated me. Some days I see things differently. If one can think about a bad experience objectively..maybe there are some things to take away from it which make you feel stronger and more sure about who you are. Remember, this person harassed me from very early on in our acquaintanceship- whether he was aware of it or not, he treated me like a play thing he could toss around and have fun with, without forming a true emotional connection. I was stuck with him because we worked together. He was very good at playing the chivalrous knight (like an SLE?) but he didn’t truly treat me with respect because he was always too afraid to ask me my opinion on any conflict we experienced. Why? Break down in respect? Because he had some unrecognised feelings towards me or simple sexual attraction that he couldn’t be bothered to deal with like an adult? So instead he treats me like a child he needs to assist rather than take a look at himself and see that our continuous problems are caused by the way he behaves towards me..and you know- maybe he should say sorry- a thousand apologies. It’s ok though, because he’s dug himself into a hole and now it’s a manager who will be telling him what he did wrong. (If you don’t regard/treat people as equals..there’s the risk you’ll go too far!) but yeah we’ll both learn from it and move on. Thanks for your comments- I’m not sure I’m really in the right head space to talk about it but maybe later I loved the boy, so there are some positives to take away from it, but things are still a bit raw. I know all his good qualities because I loved him, but to get over someone you have to be as objective as you can about the situation..and that means recognising their flaws, and then thinking about the positives in light of the flaws..


    On a positive note, I have some cute matches been a while


    E6 estp..I can’t thing about it right now haha. He was desperate to come across as nice..but seemed to take offence at many things I said. He seemed to think we were into each other, even though we were bickering..I thought it too, but I think he found the bickering thrilling where as I just got really stressed..he was probably stressed too, but he was on a date and probably confused it with excitement


    Not dating anymore people unless they’re cute. It seems to be the most straightforward option (and I don’t mean super hot, I just mean genuinely cute in my eyes)


    Oh and yeah it’s not like they opened up deeply about insecurities..but they admitted having ‘mental health problems’. They were also a bit competitive/defensive about it..mine aren’t as bad as yours/ mine can be explained but there’s no need to explain it….like I said dates with (bad/mediocre) duals can get boring fast.
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 07-20-2022 at 02:29 PM.

  37. #677
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,229
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    The first story is pure desperate seeking of outside approval/validation from others that ultimately don't matter if we're really getting down to it. Predictable.

    The second story makes me question the age of the sender of the dick pick. Sounds like a childish prank out of someone who is way younger than the victim. This raises other questions but they too rely on this point of data. Were they much younger than the girl they sent the pic to?
    @End, yes, the sender was much younger then the woman who received the picture. Plus, she said he might be a little “slow”, if you know what I mean.

  38. #678
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,857
    Mentioned
    293 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    "he" as in the biological father?
    Yep. Big problem that can be instantly countered by the honest and loving attention of the "step-father" in this case. No, no I am not your actual daddy and I cannot and will not pretend to be.

    I can be the equivalent of the most awesome uncle you could imagine however.

    I will need to sort out a few more concepts I'm currently working through but this is where I'm at right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @End, yes, the sender was much younger then the woman who received the picture. Plus, she said he might be a little “slow”, if you know what I mean.
    Data point received. Predictable in a tragic sense. Poor dumb fool. If he had instead shared a fragment of a manuscript he'd been working on for the past month instead of a... likely deficient part of his anatomy he might have gotten somewhere.

    Protip: Share your earnest and most heartfelt of goals with your potential paramour on the first date. Mine are marriage, kids, and a partner who understands that the "starving artist" archetype is a thing for a reason.

    I think I remember that you in particular have several complicating factors (i.e. you got multiple kids from multiple marriages).

    My own father "lucked out" insofar as he only ever successfully spawned me and my SEE bro despite his likely many affairs (he's obviously a "rake" and fucking hell I saw him in action recently and damn, surprised he hasn't nailed a harem down in Vegas TBH even though he could stand to lose a few pounds if I must say so). We may be experiencing a similar phenomenon from different angles. I'm on the "business end" of it all whereas you may be the Don Juan he aspired to be.

    I forget the story's name but in that particular cannon there was a woman who actually got one over on the legendary arch-seducer. Hell, he even bent the knee and proposed to her. She shot him down stating (likely accurately) that the instant he felt she was his his eyes would wander yet again to yet another potential conquest...

  39. #679
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    16,229
    Mentioned
    1553 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Yep. Big problem that can be instantly countered by the honest and loving attention of the "step-father" in this case. No, no I am not your actual daddy and I cannot and will not pretend to be.

    I can be the equivalent of the most awesome uncle you could imagine however.

    I will need to sort out a few more concepts I'm currently working through but this is where I'm at right now.



    Data point received. Predictable in a tragic sense. Poor dumb fool. If he had instead shared a fragment of a manuscript he'd been working on for the past month instead of a... likely deficient part of his anatomy he might have gotten somewhere.

    Protip: Share your earnest and most heartfelt of goals with your potential paramour on the first date. Mine are marriage, kids, and a partner who understands that the "starving artist" archetype is a thing for a reason.

    I think I remember that you in particular have several complicating factors (i.e. you got multiple kids from multiple marriages).

    My own father "lucked out" insofar as he only ever successfully spawned me and my SEE bro despite his likely many affairs (he's obviously a "rake" and fucking hell I saw him in action recently and damn, surprised he hasn't nailed a harem down in Vegas TBH even though he could stand to lose a few pounds if I must say so). We may be experiencing a similar phenomenon from different angles. I'm on the "business end" of it all whereas you may be the Don Juan he aspired to be.

    I forget the story's name but in that particular cannon there was a woman who actually got one over on the legendary arch-seducer. Hell, he even bent the knee and proposed to her. She shot him down stating (likely accurately) that the instant he felt she was his his eyes would wander yet again to yet another potential conquest...
    @End, I have mixed feelings about commitment.

    Yes, I date a lot, but as far as I know, I only have one offspring.

    As for committing to one woman, when I got married, I was sooooo happy that my Don Juan days were over. Of course, I viewed my Supervisor wife as being much superior to me, so I felt I won the jackpot and no other woman would be better, so why look?

    I recently got a shock when one of the women I was dating (an ESI) started to get serious. She was trying to nail my feet to the floor and I realized that I wasn't ready for that.

    Other women have wanted to marry me since my divorce, but they were never "possibles" in my mind. The ESI, on the other hand, was a "possible" in the Socionics sense, but a long shot in the social sense.
    IDK, things just started to feel "too real" when I understood her intentions. I think I'm looking for an ESI who is better in every respect than I am, sort of like the way I felt about my Supervisor wife, but given Socionics ITRs, that might be an unrealistic expectation.

    It doesn't help that my Fi sucks. Or that I'm dating people in the "over thirty" group, where most of the best people for relationships are already in one.

  40. #680

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    2,134
    Mentioned
    128 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Adam Strange my IEE pal was dating an SLI guy but he called it off. She has said that on reflection that he probably wouldn’t have been the easiest person to go out with. He does want to remain friends however..(?) if they both knew/accepted the existence of socionics I’d be tempted to tell them to give it a go. However, I’m
    sure there are SLEs out there who i might fancy but also have reservations about.. confusing.
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 07-21-2022 at 01:23 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •