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Thread: My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality

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    Post My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality

    This will be a series on LIE and ESI's behavior both as individuals and as duals. The descriptions available right now are from an outdated era.

    I'll be posting here on and off for the next couple of months. Periodically, I'll update the first post (the introduction).



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    Last edited by Audacious; 07-15-2022 at 09:28 PM.

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    You know...it's stupid that I relate so much to actual Socionics descriptions and IE's etc of ESI, and yet so little of what the community stereotypes about us.

    To this ESI personally, the above post truly misses the mark. It's more insulting/condescending than appealing to me, personally. I'd probably look at you like you're an idiot if you said this to me, lmao. This is why you really should exercise caution when generalizing about types. Evidence of their actions should manifest prior to what you think they're like just because they're X type. I don't give one single fuck whether anyone else believes in me, I believe in my damn self. Outside approval isn't needed. I also don't need anyone to take over figuring anything out — don't insult my independence/capability while flattering yourself as if I need you. Pfft. Please, give me a break. "You are capable of a lot more than you realize" also always seemed like something people try to make themselves believe when they're telling themselves, so I don't see why being told this is any better. Those are merely some superficial, shallow, surface level words. It doesn't get to the core issues and challenge anyone to overcome the actual issue. I don't doubt my own capabilities though, either. If anything, I find myself more capable than most, hold myself to higher standards than most; because I expect that I am more capable than most, I actually take control and responsibility for things when it's not overly burdensome, and/or shield others by taking a blow for them, knowing my endurance is higher. In general, I'm about 10x's harder on myself than others — because I know what I'm capable of. Other people disappoint me.

    “There are many others who would kill to be in your place.” — Probably already well aware and don't care at all because their desires don't necessarily reflect my own. Something being desirable by many isn't going to influence whether I myself, personally, desire it. I see it as obvious but irrelevant/insignificant.

    Aside from that, I don't see what Ne PoLR has to do with someone having a person's back, nor someone figuring things out. Seems entirely disparate.


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    In relationships, Victim-Aggressor types have their own games. And each type will have their own version of it. If you know how to play the game and you win, you go to the next level. Otherwise, the person will repeat the game every now and then to see if you can ace the test.


    ----

    One game LIE plays to draw their dual in: chasing you by positioning themselves in front of you, but simultaneously distancing through productivity.


    Victim types play many games. One of them is about perception: "Do you understand the game I'm playing even though I look like I'm not interested? Can you see that I'm faking disinterest?"


    LIEs play this game by appearing to be productive right in front of you when they know you are going to show up somewhere. They won't play this game with you unless they are trying to draw you in or they are trying to reconnect with you.

    So what does it look like? They know you are going to pass through a certain section of the building or maybe there's a cafe or coworking space which you visit. They'll know when you visit, when you are least likely to be a in a rush, etc. That you have time to chat for at least X minutes or an hour or whatever.

    Or they know that you will be in a certain meeting. They will make sure that they will be there too and that you will have to interact with them for some minor reason.


    They know that you will show up somewhere because they have been collecting information on you by observing you or analyzing you and deducing whatever they can. Low-key, they'll collect all the available data in as reasonable a way as possible. Don't doubt that. Part of them wonders if they are intruding on your privacy. Generally, they have their own personal limits. They are usually beyond what would make some people comfortable. That's why they keep their mouths shut about it or only discuss it with open minded friends.


    The way they see it: if it doesn't hurt you and it helps them understand you better, why should they judge themselves? That's not practical.

    LIEs won't ask 50 people for information about you. But because we live in an information age where collecting information can be done relatively anonymously, LIEs feels comfortable doing so. If that's not possible, they'll do it by just observing you. What are you into? What are your habits? What's your routine? What is most likely going on in your life based on the schedule you have and activities you have chosen? LIE will try to deduce how much you earn, what type of job you have, what your life looks like, who your exes are, what your relationship status is, and way more.



    The motivation of the game


    They want to keep themselves informed so that they can provide an opportunity to someone else to bridge the interpersonal distance. And information is just one small but vital part of that process.




    How they set up.


    They show up early and set themselves up. They will carefully choose a location where you will HAVE to see them and they are most likely to interact with you. If the right spot is not available right away, they will kick themselves for being shortsighted and move at the first available opportunity. If something interrupts their strange little plan, they'll go take care of it and kick themselves for the bad timing or not factoring this in. Then they will make a mental note to look for a better opportunity to connect with you in the future.


    They will go through this drama even if it is less comfortable than their office or home. Even if it would be easier to just call you and ask you out. If the place is clearly noisier and they can't focus as well as they can at home, it is irrelevant to them during that moment. They'll set themselves up there.

    The events


    They will wait and watch out for you while they are on that mostly boring zoom call or conference call. Or they will sit there busily working on a report they supposedly HAVE to submit soon. You'll know whatever they are up to because they'll tell you. When will they do that and how?


    You'll pass by them. They will say hi. Yes, they'll initiate. If you say hi and ask them a question, they'll tell you they are busy. There's an online convention going on or something like that. It's important, you see. It's for work. Or for it's for their pet project. Or whatever "important" or "useful" thing they are into.


    Then something bizarre happens. They will turn away from you. They seem to disconnect from you. After all that effort, they don't want to talk to you. They don't even want to make plans with you. They haven't even mentioned the idea of seeing you again.


    If you don't know how to read the signals, you'll wonder WTF was that? Do they want to be left alone? If they have already indicated interest in you before, you might wonder, is LIE into me or not? I don't think even other LIEs know how to read each other properly when this game is going on.


    So here's a little tip.


    If LIE actually wanted to be 100% productive, there's no way they would choose a setting that disturbs their focus. They wouldn't choose a setting where random people will interrupt. If they choose such a setting, one of these things is true: (1) there was no other choice, (2) it was a situational decision (had to do it before going somewhere else), (3) they are looking to network with the people who show up there, or (4) they want someone/people to connect with them.


    If they keep showing up in front of you somehow or the other while appearing busy, it's probably intentional.


    I think this is because nature designed ESI to separate people into "my people" and "not my people." So when LIE keeps showing up and appearing relatively harmless but productive, they live on the boundary of those two lines. Which means it's ok to talk to them. I'm guessing about that part though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    In relationships, Victim-Aggressor types have their own games. And each type will have their own version of it. If you know how to play the game and you win, you go to the next level. Otherwise, the person will repeat the game every now and then to see if you can ace the test.

    One game LIE plays to draw their dual in: chasing you by positioning themselves in front of you, but simultaneously distancing through productivity.

    Victim types play many games. One of them is about perception: "Do you understand the game I'm playing even though I look like I'm not interested? Can you see that I'm faking disinterest?"
    Lmao, my LIE boyfriend did very similar, except he tried to make me jealous instead of being productive. It backfired because I didn't know he was trying to make me jealous, so I thought he was a manwhore that would end up cheating on me. He lost me for like a year or two because of that. I've actually read that LIE/ESI is one of the harder intertypes since ESIs see them as flawed in character initially. Guess it was true in our case.

    I just read the title more closely — “My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality” — whoops. I'll bugger off now.


    EDIT:
    Btw, as far as the whole “trying to make me jealous” thing goes, I personally don't believe in competing with others for a person. The way I see it…if their attention is that divided, they must not be all that decided on me. If you can take them, take them; I'll find someone who values me and wants me more than that. 2 years later I found out he's still completely in love with me and just sort of fucked up by not being honest/straightforward, so clearly, things aren't always so black and white. There's that Ne PoLR black/white-ness, I guess.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 10-26-2021 at 03:36 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    Lmao, my LIE boyfriend did very similar, except he tried to make me jealous instead of being productive. It backfired because I didn't know he was trying to make me jealous, so I thought he was a manwhore that would end up cheating on me. He lost me for like a year or two because of that. I've actually read that LIE/ESI is one of the harder intertypes since ESIs see them as flawed in character initially. Guess it was true in our case.

    I just read the title more closely — “My thoughts on ESI - LIE duality” — whoops. I'll bugger off now.

    Don't bugger off, @Phoenix Fire This thread needs some real world feedback.

    Lol. That's me for sure. "flawed in character'.

    The ESI-Se that I've known for years told me recently that the world is a fucked up place and I'm one of the reasons why. Well, hey, girl. Do, or Do not.

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    This is extremely interesting. I look forward to the development of this thread! I can see why ESI and SEI are seen as quasi identical cause I can see the appeal and why conflictors and your dual can seem so similar.

    Anyways, learned some interesting stuff today! Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Don't bugger off, @Phoenix Fire This thread needs some real world feedback.

    Lol. That's me for sure. "flawed in character'.

    The ESI-Se that I've known for years told me recently that the world is a fucked up place and I'm one of the reasons why. Well, hey, girl. Do, or Do not.
    Lol oof, damn. Even I tend to be a bit more encouraging than that, as blunt as I am...I tend to approach things from the perspective that the individual is separate from their actions and it isn't part of who they are, it's merely what they do, therefore making it a little easier to digest and hopefully encouraging them to be honest with themselves and believe they can tackle it. I have had a few conversations with an LIE involving them interpreting my “this dynamic is ineffective” statements as “you're defective.” I've known for years that such approaches generally make people less receptive. I try to basically let others know that it's okay to make mistakes, have flaws, and be imperfect. It's the first step in challenging them to reach their own potential. If people don't admit there's a shortcoming, they can't see that there's an opportunity to grow beyond it. If they feel judged, they probably won't feel comfortable opening up to you. IME, LIEs often have a difficult enough time with opening up and being vulnerable as it is (probably not applicable to every single one, but is a pattern I've experienced thus far).

    EDIT:
    Also, I don't want to be too hard on others and thus crush their spirits or something. My goal isn't to tear down or break, it's to build them up. Knowing how much “force/pressure” to apply, and when, is important. You don't want to make people accept a reality that they feel makes them inherently flawed or defective, because then they wind up discouraged or feeling like their spirit is broken. That doesn't provoke someone to action/overcoming. It only hurts their self-esteem.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    EDIT:
    Also, I don't want to be too hard on others and thus crush their spirits or something. My goal isn't to tear down or break, it's to build them up. Knowing how much “force/pressure” to apply, and when, is important. You don't want to make people accept a reality that they feel makes them inherently flawed or defective, because then they wind up discouraged or feeling like their spirit is broken. That doesn't provoke someone to action/overcoming. It only hurts their self-esteem.
    This kind of thing is a dynamic that has been necessary to explain before. Sometimes I hear about the advice my boyfriend gave, or how he dealt with someone, and I'm like "(HE/YOU) SAID WHAT TO THEM?!” Lmao. The most recent example was, “you can't come down on someone who is already coming down on themselves, especially when you're coming down on them for coming down on themselves, lmao. That only makes them worse…you have to build them up and encourage them toward the right direction in those moments…” I laugh because I know he's innocent about it and doesn't mean to handle things in such a way, and is learning, but I'm also facepalming.

    Other ways I think that duality has manifested via Fi-Seeking / Fe Base is the times when I warned him about someone else, explained the dynamics, but he continued to doubt. Eventually, their character became far more obvious through their actions, and then he saw it once it was extremely clear they were deliberately trying to inflict harm onto me. He doubts things a bit too much, gives people too much credit or too many chances. I'll give him warnings or insights, and he will kind of just be like “maybe, but IDK…” initially.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 10-26-2021 at 11:45 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    You know...it's stupid that I relate so much to actual Socionics descriptions and IE's etc of ESI, and yet so little of what the community stereotypes about us.

    To this ESI personally, the above post truly misses the mark. It's more insulting/condescending than appealing to me, personally. I'd probably look at you like you're an idiot if you said this to me, lmao. This is why you really should exercise caution when generalizing about types. Evidence of their actions should manifest prior to what you think they're like just because they're X type. I don't give one single fuck whether anyone else believes in me, I believe in my damn self. Outside approval isn't needed. I also don't need anyone to take over figuring anything out — don't insult my independence/capability while flattering yourself as if I need you. Pfft. Please, give me a break. "You are capable of a lot more than you realize" also always seemed like something people try to make themselves believe when they're telling themselves, so I don't see why being told this is any better. Those are merely some superficial, shallow, surface level words. It doesn't get to the core issues and challenge anyone to overcome the actual issue. I don't doubt my own capabilities though, either. If anything, I find myself more capable than most, hold myself to higher standards than most; because I expect that I am more capable than most, I actually take control and responsibility for things when it's not overly burdensome, and/or shield others by taking a blow for them, knowing my endurance is higher. In general, I'm about 10x's harder on myself than others — because I know what I'm capable of. Other people disappoint me.

    “There are many others who would kill to be in your place.” — Probably already well aware and don't care at all because their desires don't necessarily reflect my own. Something being desirable by many isn't going to influence whether I myself, personally, desire it. I see it as obvious but irrelevant/insignificant.

    Aside from that, I don't see what Ne PoLR has to do with someone having a person's back, nor someone figuring things out. Seems entirely disparate.

    You just gave a demonstration of what defensive version of Ne PolR looks like. So thanks for that!

    It's really interesting that you don't see anything I see. You are unable to see those statements outside personal experiences. (1 dimensional). You see the norm but don't comprehend it (again, 1D). You can't understand them in a different situation. And you certainly can't see them over time. Thanks for showing us what it looks like from the inside!

    Instead you see it all as hard work and climbing uphill. Strong Se.


    Every type believes in themselves, but it doesn't mean Ne PolR automatically knows how to measure and optimize their potential. Or knows how to keep proceeding through the unknown. They think they need to hustle, but simply pushing forward is not enough in many cases. These are the things that xSI's duals help them with. That's how LIE and EIE have their dual's back. By not letting them fall apart when assessing their own talents and the possibilities present/emerging in an environment.



    When 4D Ne believes in someone and thinks they are capable of doing something, they don't mean "you go girl. Do you."

    This is what 4D Ne of LIE sees (with some other stuff thrown in) (other types of 4D Ne probably see a version of it too)

    "I believe in your potential relentlessly because I have assessed the environment or marketplace and assessed you. I think you are absolutely capable of doing this. The things you are underestimating in yourself are understandable but I believe that they are smaller than your potential. Other people have struggled with something similar and I see how they have overcome it, what mistakes they made along the way, what BS they fell for, and what you need to do differently. Because of that, I know exactly what to do. Plus I have my own interesting ideas. Don't ever doubt that.

    I also have an eye on what is currently evolving within the space and what's possible within that. I also think about what possibilities might evolve in the future both within and outside that space and how you might fit in there. So with all that in mind, I believe in your potential and ability to do this.

    But if that's not enough, I need to know if you still disagree with me. I will not stick around to convince you until the end of time. We can have multiple discussion sessions and I will be fully engaged then, but I need to see at some point that you are on the same page as I am. If you are not there by then, I don't think you will ever get there."


    4D Ne also sees when potential is going to go south. But that wasn't the context of my advice. Maybe I will cover that later.
    Last edited by Audacious; 10-26-2021 at 04:43 PM.

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    @Audacious
    You just gave a demonstration of what defensive version of Ne PolR looks like.
    No.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 10-29-2021 at 05:51 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    I think this is because nature designed ESI to separate people into "my people" and "not my people."
    That's an "Aristocratic" trait while ESI are democratic, as is the entire Gamma quadrant. You sure you aren't mistaking ESI for some other type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    That's an "Aristocratic" trait while ESI are democratic, as is the entire Gamma quadrant. You sure you aren't mistaking ESI for some other type?
    No, although ESI is democratic, ESI is also wired in this weird way.



    https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ile_by_Gulenko

    At first acquaintance sharply divides people into two categories - "his own" and "others". Others mostly cease to exist for him, but to his own he becomes deeply attached. He is often sharp and uncompromising with strangers, but forgives a lot for those who are in his inner circle. Demonstrates his attitude towards someone by managing psychological distance, first distancing a person, then bringing them closer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post


    No, although ESI is democratic, ESI is also wired in this weird way.



    https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ngelFireWolf69

    At first acquaintance sharply divides people into two categories - "his own" and "others". Others mostly cease to exist for him, but to his own he becomes deeply attached. He is often sharp and uncompromising with strangers, but forgives a lot for those who are in his inner circle. Demonstrates his attitude towards someone by managing psychological distance, first distancing a person, then bringing them closer.
    “There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.”


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    As usual, I will only speak for myself. I don't want it to come off as though I'm acting like I'm 'the archetypal ESI by which all descriptions of ESIs are compared to' when I speak on whether something is accurate for me personally. I speak with “me/I, as one ESI,” rather than “ESIs in general” only because I feel uncomfortable saying “Yes, I'm this way, so ESIs are this way” and can't speak for others. I'm merely offering my one firsthand perspective and single vote to be considered along with the feedback of others. With that clarified to avoid misunderstandings…

    I see my close connections as “my people.” It ties in with the sense of close connection that I have with them, not aristocracy. It's not based upon categorization, it's based upon intimacy levels. It's those I feel closely connected to, and thus protective of, loyal to, and so on.

    @Milo I do think that's a good point though, and something to keep in mind if typing.
    Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 10-29-2021 at 05:51 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    “There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.”
    Change DarkAngelFireWolf69 to Gul(remove)enko in the link. Easter eggs are fun, but this one is too frequent and makes the forum unprofessional, consider removing it @mu4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    That's an "Aristocratic" trait while ESI are democratic, as is the entire Gamma quadrant. You sure you aren't mistaking ESI for some other type?
    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post


    No, although ESI is democratic, ESI is also wired in this weird way.



    https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index....ile_by_Gulenko

    At first acquaintance sharply divides people into two categories - "his own" and "others". Others mostly cease to exist for him, but to his own he becomes deeply attached. He is often sharp and uncompromising with strangers, but forgives a lot for those who are in his inner circle. Demonstrates his attitude towards someone by managing psychological distance, first distancing a person, then bringing them closer.
    I believe that the interpretation of ESIs as dividing people into "his own" and "others" is an error on the part of Gulenko due to his Fi blindness and the fact that he's sitting on the side of the table with opposite values and isn't naturally attuned to Gamma values.

    Instead, I believe what Strat said, which was that ESIs divide the world into groups which are either "for" them or are "against" them, in the sense that ESIs are mainly concerned with whether or not a person is going to cause them moral problems in the future. Because ethical Fi is their main program for interpreting the world and Ne and Ni are areas of weakness, and their Se "push" serves the Fi.

    So ESIs can be adamant about their ethical stands (you see that in the posts above) and really do ignore other people's viewpoints. I can't tell you how many times an ESI has told me "You don't know me. You don't know what I'm thinking." Lol. Right. You're the only person in the world who thinks your thoughts, and I'm simply not capable of understanding them. Of course. (This is sarcasm, if you can't tell.)

    ESIs aren't wired any differently than any other Gamma. You just have to strip the definitions down to the exact truth to see this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Instead, I believe what Strat said, which was that ESIs divide the world into groups which are either "for" them or are "against" them, in the sense that ESIs are mainly concerned with whether or not a person is going to cause them moral problems in the future. Because ethical Fi is their main program for interpreting the world and Ne and Ni are areas of weakness, and their Se "push" serves the Fi.
    Too black and white. If you know psychology/the DSM, etc…this is actually how “splitting” in narcissism works. It's not a normal, healthy way of seeing the world.

    I evaluate whether a person is a threat to me/others based on what their character is like, but that's about it.

    I can't tell you how many times an ESI has told me "You don't know me. You don't know what I'm thinking." Lol. Right. You're the only person in the world who thinks your thoughts, and I'm simply not capable of understanding them. Of course. (This is sarcasm, if you can't tell.)
    What's the context for this?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So ESIs can be adamant about their ethical stands (you see that in the posts above) and really do ignore other people's viewpoints.
    Btw, I did originally ask for more clarity to try to understand their viewpoint. When I was ignored by them (skipped over while they only responded to others on this thread) rather than them explaining, I was uncertain and then edited the info out of my post and moved on. So I don't exactly appreciate this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire View Post
    Btw, I did originally ask for more clarity to try to understand their viewpoint. When I was ignored by them (skipped over while they only responded to others on this thread) rather than them explaining, I was uncertain and then edited the info out of my post and moved on. So I don't exactly appreciate this.

    It takes a lot of focus for me to reply to some of these posts, and I don't always have the time or the energy to make a decent reply. And sometimes I forget altogether.

    I'll try to answer your question tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It takes a lot of focus for me to reply to some of these posts, and I don't always have the time or the energy to make a decent reply. And sometimes I forget altogether.

    I'll try to answer your question tomorrow.
    The question was to Audacious. I wanted to know why they saw it as being defensive in response to Ne PoLR.


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    Some of these duality descriptions are a little caricatural (ESI cannot make complex plans to save their life) but overall fine, i guess. I want to know that i can rely on a man to have a vision for the future and/or get things done in general in order to feel secure. Perfectly flows into archetypal gender roles.
    I AM YOUR HOLY TOTEM
    I AM YOUR SICK TABOO
    RADICAL AND RADIANT
    I'M YOUR NIGHTMARE COMING TRUE

    I AM YOUR WORST ENEMY
    I AM YOUR DEAREST FRIEND
    MALIGNANTLY MALEVOLENT
    I AM OF DIVINE DESCENT


    I AM YOUR UNCONSCIOUSNESS
    I AM UNRESTRAINED EXCESS
    METAMORPHIC RESTLESSNESS
    I'M YOUR UNEXPECTEDNESS

    I AM YOUR APOCALYPSE
    I AM YOUR BELIEF UNWROUGHT
    MONOLITHIC JUGGERNAUT

    STRAY BULLET
    FROM THE HEAVENS ABOVE
    STRAY BULLET
    READY OR NOT
    I'M THE ILLEGITIMATE SON OF GOD


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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    The question was to Audacious. I wanted to know why they saw it as being defensive in response to Ne PoLR.
    I will respond to you later. I need some time to think about this.

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    Default LIE's 1D Si

    LIE's 1D Si

    There are a few different ways LIE's 1D Si manifests.


    Data vs wellbeing

    LIE can mistake (4D Te) externally collected data or absence of external data for (1D Si) physical wellbeing of either a person or an object. Data collection itself can be incredibly useful. Sometimes that data is correct in which case things work out. But other times they miss incredibly important information by not being aware of their own internal physical states. What do you do when data can't be collected? Stop taking care of yourself? Stop taking care of your things?

    When a situation becomes overwhelming, they will finally notice something is wrong. And even then, they feel the urge to either ignore it, obsess over it by researching it, or try some shortcuts. Long term failure here forces LIE to overcome innate resistance and teaches them to prioritize this part of their life.


    Missing the baseline

    Because LIE doesn't routinely evaluate and analyze the baseline of their own internal states, it's easier to sway them into doing something that's unhealthy for them. If ESI sees this happening, they should feel free to step in and block that happening. There are 4 levels of doing.

    1) Take over Si from the beginning. Then LIE has to go through you. The opportunity to screw up simply doesn't present itself.
    2) Tell them that won't do. Ask them if they can choose something else. Give them options.
    3) If they are struggling to say no to someone, help them figure out what to say.
    4) Step in and reject the source yourself.


    Prioritize goals over wellbeing to support others

    LIE will also prioritize other people's needs (moods, life) instead of their own if the other person seems desperate. In doing so, LIE's wellbeing takes a direct hit. But they don't notice this until their situation becomes desperate. For example, one LIE might smoke or drink excessively to cope with their loved one's emotional instability. They know on a literal level that smoking/drinking is bad for you. They also know that they need to quit. But how? Not just specific techniques which they can find, but moment to moment internal rebalancing. How do you do that? And how do you manage that in the context of relationships? Who should you push away and who gets to stay?

    LIE needs to learn that deteriorating for other people is not a reasonable option because it is killing their own growth. Outwardly, they might not notice it because at least some parts of their life are functioning well (work, for example). But the complete synthesis of their life is malfunctioning.

    ESI doesn't tolerate this well. ESI values forward motion like LIE, but is also incredibly good at creating internal harmony. LIE needs someone like that. LIE doesn't want someone who will shut off their engine and tell them to stagnate for the rest of time. (LIE fears this). Which is why ESI can help them.

    ESI's 1D Te helps here because LIE can maintain some level of control by researching, evaluating, and learning things. They can also create or modify a broader plan of action. This makes them feel like they are not giving in completely. So it makes it easier to receive help. This is true even if the ESI in question has advanced degrees or is incredibly talented in their field.


    Maximizing Si by Te + Ni

    When LIE starts a plan and finds all the necessary stuff to get it going, they can go on a maximizing spree. "I'm going to optimize every part of it so that I get the highest amount of benefit I can reasonably get." The interesting thing here is that LIE genuinely believes they are being reasonable. But if they keep that up, they inevitably end up hurt in ways they couldn't have predicted.

    For example, instead of saying no to a doctor offering to do something uncomfortable or unsafe, they will take up the offer because it is more cost effective to do it now than later. Being a positivist type with Ni valuing, they see some problems right away, but not the whole scope of them. There is a bias towards "it will work out." Sometimes it works out. But sometimes it is simply unnecessary. And that unnecessary thing can have repercussions they simply did not predict.


    Can LIE prioritize Si?

    Until they reach some level of failure (even a continuous small one) and see its impact on their life, they won't be willing to make changes. What's worse is that the immature LIEs will try to cut these activities out of other people's lives because they are "a waste of time."

    If you simply say, "it makes me feel better" or "I like the way it feels" LIE is too thickheaded to understand that on a deeper level. Not because LIE is unintelligent, but because LIE has weak Si. They can't visualize such statements by relating to it. They can try, they may even agree superficially, but if you want it to stick, it needs to be related to something they actually understand.

    In such situations, they are only persuaded by one thing. They need to know how maintaining wellbeing of a person/object directly contributes to the bottom-line or to momentum of their intended goal, project, or relationship.

    LIE is also impressed by people who use their internal physical wellbeing to increase their life's momentum. If they see such a person showing up and succeeding consistently, they will ask, "hey how do you X? I noticed that you are better than others at X. What are you doing differently?"

    At that point, if someone tells them about Si stuff they will consider it. They will try it with enthusiasm and abandon the project quickly because what they really need is for someone to help them by taking it over. When you start doing things on your own, you usually don't have that support.

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    I've been thinking about my relationships with ESI Duals recently. I know at least 19 ESIs; 8 females and 11 males. Some of those males are very good friends, and some are acquaintances. Some of the women I have dated with serious intentions, and some are just women whom I know.

    One of my early experiences with a male ESI friend somehow went wrong and we didn't talk for many years, and then I ran into him in a Kroger store and it was like we were still best buddies.
    He seems somehow to be similar to the female ESI that I was dating recently. We started getting close, then she pulled back and I said "Call me when you want to go out again" and she hasn't called me.

    On the other hand, I have a male and a female ESI in my life right now who are good friends and I don't see that ever changing.

    What the hell is the difference? Is it something I might be able to see before I invest a couple years in a relationship? I think that other people might be able to tell the difference right away, but for some reason, I can't.

    The problem, for certain, isn't related to Duality, because that part of the equation is good in all cases.

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    This duality sounds bizarre to me, nothing is registering. Where is the romance and urgency and power of immediate and encompassing connection that is each day renewed with energy? I don't see anything here for me. Therefore, I don't belong here, and that's okay.

    And if its not romantic duality, then what do these words written even do or help with or make me feel completed with that missing information that my mind so called needs?

    See the thing about Fi is that its always looking at what brings the phenomenon closer to oneself. How are you making me believe in it? How are you making my doubts go away? How are we moving one step closer? And how are we doing that day in and out? Is there room for breaks in there that make it all the more urgent when we do get back together? What makes this all worth it?

    Like I said, nothing in gamma quadra has ever really registered for me. Nothing on this site, besides a few members, have ever made me feel like this is the place I belong. Therefore I just say whatever, whenever and in that sense it makes this place an interactive journal.

    Carry on gammas. Sorry for the interruption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    This duality sounds bizarre to me, nothing is registering. Where is the romance and urgency and power of immediate and encompassing connection that is each day renewed with energy? I don't see anything here for me. Therefore, I don't belong here, and that's okay.

    And if its not romantic duality, then what do these words written even do or help with or make me feel completed with that missing information that my mind so called needs?

    See the thing about Fi is that its always looking at what brings the phenomenon closer to oneself. How are you making me believe in it? How are you making my doubts go away? How are we moving one step closer? And how are we doing that day in and out? Is there room for breaks in there that make it all the more urgent when we do get back together? What makes this all worth it?

    Like I said, nothing in gamma quadra has ever really registered for me. Nothing on this site, besides a few members, have ever made me feel like this is the place I belong. Therefore I just say whatever, whenever and in that sense it makes this place an interactive journal.

    Carry on gammas. Sorry for the interruption.
    How are we moving together every day, @timber? Where is the power of immediate and encompassing connection?

    Where, indeed?

    Today the lesbian ESI-Se decorator showed up for work in a pair of Carhartt bib overalls and not much else.
    ”Ta Da!”, she said. “I’m here!”
    I said, “Great! Let’s get to work!”
    She turned sideways and you know, I realize that she’s a lesbian but she’s also a woman and I started to have the usual reaction that a man might have when little is left to the imagination and she looked at me and said “It’s kind of cold in here. I think I’ll get a sweater from my car.”
    And so she did. And put it on. And then we had a very productive work session.

    I try to treat her like a guy, but I sometimes fail at this.
    I blame the internet, and my being the product of 4.5 billion years of unbroken reproduction.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-08-2021 at 12:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    How are we moving together every day, @timber? Where is the power of immediate and encompassing connection?

    Where, indeed?

    Today the lesbian ESI-Se decorator showed up for work in a pair of Carhartt bib overalls and not much else.
    ”Ta Da!”, she said. “I’m here!”
    I said, “Great! Let’s get to work!”
    She turned sideways and you know, I realize that she’s a lesbian but she’s also a woman and I started to have the usual reaction that a man might have when little is left to the imagination and she looked at me and said “It’s kind of cold in here. I think I’ll get a sweater from my car.”
    And so she did. And put it on. And then we had a very productive work session.

    I try to treat her like a guy, but I sometimes fail at this.
    I blame the internet, and my being the product of 4.5 billion years of unbroken reproduction.
    Okay. This is how a quarter of porn movies start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Okay. This is how a quarter of porn movies start.

    Is it? Maybe there's hope yet.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've known her for ten years and this is actually the first time I've ever been turned on by her.

    I mean, She's beautiful and a great person, but I've never felt sexual towards her before, which might sound really weird, but it's true.

    I suspect she was just experimenting to find out something, but I don't know why.

    God, I hope I'm not getting desperate.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-08-2021 at 01:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ,.... not getting desperate.
    I'm not sure if you are asking me if you are or not, but I don't think it's desperate perse.

    It's just human and normal. Look this is public thread so I'm not going to hyper analyze this.

    I think more than anything its just a nice distraction, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I'm not sure if you are asking me if you are or not, but I don't think it's desperate perse.

    It's just human and normal. Look this is public thread so I'm not going to hyper analyze this.

    I think more than anything its just a nice distraction, right?
    Yeah, it was better than many things she could have done. I don't actually think it was a big deal, but I related it here for exactly that reason. @timber, you were asking where the "one step closer" was. Well, she figured out that I'd probably get closer to her if she were serious. I guess that's one step closer.

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    LIEs especially: thoughts on methodologies for an ESI, sx/sp, 4w5, to become more open to 'putting themselves out there' and 'meeting new people' 🙃 without already having a local dual to help them do this? When spatial and emotional isolation get to a point that the ESI realizes they do need to meet new people, but don't have great methods on how to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    LIEs especially: thoughts on methodologies for an ESI, sx/sp, 4w5, to become more open to 'putting themselves out there' and 'meeting new people'  without already having a local dual to help them do this? When spatial and emotional isolation get to a point that the ESI realizes they do need to meet new people, but don't have great methods on how to do so.

    Join an astronomy club in your area. Most of the guys there will be incredible nerds and introverts, and a few of them will be ILIs (look for the guys taking pictures of the sky) and those ILIs will almost certainly have LIE friends, if there aren't any LIEs in the club. Although, there probably will be.

    Most of the ESIs that I've met have a passing interest in astronomy, and almost anyone can fake it for a few meetings if you don't. If you are sx/sp e4w5, then OceanMoonshine says that:

    Sexual/Self-pres

    This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

    When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.

    Since they say that you might resemble a type e7 and a lot of SEEs are type e7, you might find that you get along well with the ILIs in the crowd. You might find that you get along well with the LIEs, too.

    You're going to have to go out of your way to run into LIEs. I've only encountered two ESI-LIE couples in the past six years, and one couple met in college (probably as a result of a drunken hook-up, but then the LIE discovered that he liked the girl outside of bed, too), and the other couple met in medical school. He was a doctor, and she an RN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Join an astronomy club in your area. Most of the guys there will be incredible nerds and introverts, and a few of them will be ILIs (look for the guys taking pictures of the sky) and those ILIs will almost certainly have LIE friends, if there aren't any LIEs in the club. Although, there probably will be.

    Most of the ESIs that I've met have a passing interest in astronomy, and almost anyone can fake it for a few meetings if you don't. If you are sx/sp e4w5, then OceanMoonshine says that:

    Sexual/Self-pres

    This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

    When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.

    Since they say that you might resemble a type e7 and a lot of SEEs are type e7, you might find that you get along well with the ILIs in the crowd. You might find that you get along well with the LIEs, too.

    You're going to have to go out of your way to run into LIEs. I've only encountered two ESI-LIE couples in the past six years, and one couple met in college (probably as a result of a drunken hook-up, but then the LIE discovered that he liked the girl outside of bed, too), and the other couple met in medical school. He was a doctor, and she an RN.
    Thanks! Great idea. Signed up for the listserv for the astronomy club in my area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    Thanks! Great idea. Signed up for the listserv for the astronomy club in my area.

    If that doesn't work, there's always Med school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    If that doesn't work, there's always Med school.
    True. I will think about proximity to a good teaching hospital in figuring out where I want to live next. Pretty far from one now; my dreams of becoming an MD died in middle school science; and I'm way too self-focused (tbh) to want to be an RN.

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    Default How an LIE adjusts ESI's Ti

    My comments on the below idea from Gulenko:

    LIE's adjustment of ESI's Ti - explaining/modeling why it is necessary to work with some people, and how, is an aspect of the duality that I did not notice until recently, and it really is crucial. It really throws me off that I can't completely use my Fi to build a relationship with someone (esp. if they're a fellow Fi ego... such as IEE) when they occupy a more 'formal' role in my life. I guess it's discomfort with role Ti to build a relationship and a lack of Ne ideas on how to do so. Woohoo! This knowledge transfer really works, and at least in what I've observed so far, is getting the Te results I want .

    7. Ti: ignoring function of ENTj and role function of ISFj
    (http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...ons_by_Gulenko)

    LIE's thinking is automatically tuned to objective logic in form of development of concrete technologies and methods within any field. He automatically divides big assignments or projects into many smaller sub-tasks that can be concretely realized, and identifies the order in which they should be implemented. By providing the ESI with guidance and information of this kind, the LIE supports his role function, which is oriented at finding general principles. The normative attitude of the ESI includes large physical distances that don't allow other people to approach him too closely. The LIE adjusts this function by explaining what for a person is needed, what can be obtained or learned from him or her. Without such advice, the ESI feels uncomfortable being with a seemingly unneeded person at close distances. [emphasis added]
    Last edited by spacious; 12-14-2021 at 05:08 AM. Reason: formatting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    Words that are appealing to ESI.

    “I haven’t given up on you. I think you are capable of a lot more than you realize. But if you disagree, I need to know. I’ll be disappointed but I won’t waste my time on this again.”



    Why does that work?


    • “I haven’t given up on you.” ESIs doubt their potential. To know someone has their back is incredibly meaningful to PolR Ne. Both LSIs and ESIs need someone who relentlessly believes in them.
    • “I think you are capable of a lot more than you realize.” Again, PolR Ne needs to know that someone can just take over figuring this out. And that they will initiate this conversation even if ESI doesn’t.
    • “But if you disagree, I need to know.” There’s room for disagreement and I can’t read your mind. You need to bridge that psychological distance. This is notice to you from a fellow rational type that I need a judgement call from you.
    • “I’ll be disappointed.” Role Fe. This will be my mood. Maybe Ni. This is the consequence. I can bear it. There’s no guilt tripping. Each party has to bear their own consequences. Everyone is responsible for themselves at the end. This doesn't need to be stated overtly. It can be implied.
    • “I won’t waste my time again.” Gamma quadra values time. It is better to communicate that you value your time (but you also value the other person). If you don’t communicate that at some point or the other, it might even feel unsafe to Gamma quadra members. However, if you start by saying “wont waste time,” then it sends a different message. It says Ni is stronger than Ne. That communicates impatience. I would use it in that order as a last resort.



    Things you shouldn’t say if ESI doubts themselves:


    • “If you think you are not capable.” Positivist LIE should figure out what ESI is capable of and tell them. This should be done by factoring in LIE's vision and ESI’s interests. If ESI figures it out, that’s a bonus, not a requirement.
    • “There are many others who would kill to be in your place.” ESI doesn’t want to be one of many, although they are willing to compete. Instead you can tell them, “look I really believe in you, but there ARE a lot of people people who want this spot. So I can’t hold on to it forever. I think you would be great at it because of X, Y, and Z. Yes, there are things you don’t know right now, but you can learn them. You need to make a decision about this by X date.”
    You weren't far off, actually...you just missed the flip side of the coin, which is that some of us are the opposite: we overestimate our potential.

    In the end, it all boils down to not being able to accurately measure potential/possibilities in things...as much as I "REEEEEEE" at saying this.

    Had to learn this via my experiences with overestimating myself.

    Imagine trying to deal with an ESI you have to tell "you can't" probably going to get the middle finger and a look that could kill if you're not choosy about your words.

    Will just keep going via hard work until it happens, though.

    That's dangerous (to ourselves) when it's combined with our idealism. Chasing a fantasy, a dream...one that will never come to be.


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