LSIs-ISTjs not fitting stereotypes

[xerx]

I could see this happening on an internet forum, where either combination of Ti and Se are not at all in their element. I mean even now there are barely any LSIs and SLEs here... at least SLEs are represented by the endless heartbroken IEIs though.

i wasn't there when it all started, but I remember niffweed17 (and expat iirc) being some of the more vocal adherent to the characterization of lsi as an assertive, one-track minded, highly regimented type.

the two previously mentioned also had a history of typing people into beta, either for being overly assertive with their opinions and aggressive criticism of other posters, or for engaging in anti-social, sometimes cliquish behavior. not without one or two exceptions though.

si quadras lack a spine; delta nfs are stuffy; alphas rarely deviate from non-threatening communication, etc., applied pervasively and thoroughly.


side note: niffweed at one point made a post about how he felt sorry for alpha nts because alpha sfs are stupid.

[bolong]

i don't remember how it all started, but I remember niffweed17 (and expat iirc) being the most vocal adherent to the characterization of lsi as an assertive, one-track minded, highly regimented type.

the two previously mentioned also had a history of typing people into beta, either for being overly assertive with their opinions and aggressive criticism of other posters, or for engaging in what they deemed socially destructive behavior. not without one or two exceptions though.

si quadras lack a spine; delta nfs are stuffy; alphas rarely deviate from non-threatening communication, and so on.


side note: niffweed at one point made a post about how he felt sorry for alpha nts because alpha sfs are stupid.

According to niffweed, niffweed would be beta.

And what's up with these cats?? LSI thinks cats are for eating when other food supplies run low.

[JWC3]

But the stereotypes ARE socionics.. and pretty spot on, unless promoted by people who hate the type they are describing for some reason, and the people who are reading don't know enough about that type irl to not believe them.

I think the discrepancy we are having in this discussion is more related to our apparently differing definitions of what constitutes a stereotype in socionics. I define socionics sterotypes more readily as things like "All LSIs have mustaches" or "All SEEs wear crazy shoes" or "All SLEs are huge assholes." And yes sometimes LSIs have facial hair and sometimes SLEs are assholes, which is what I was referring to in my original post, though not always and certainly not as a hard and fast rule.

In light of your response I think understanding your original question as "LSIs, how do you not fit the archetypical LSI description?" would be more appropriate. Using the word stereotype tends to connote more derogatory or untrue labels.

[Absurd]

"All LSIs have mustaches" or "All SEEs wear crazy shoes" or "All SLEs are huge assholes."

Which one are you?

[Iris]

And what's up with these cats?? LSI thinks cats are for eating when other food supplies run low.

Ha, You read my mind!

[Hemoglobin]

Ha, You read my mind!

@sssonyyy

Cats are a low energy pet that require only food, shelter, water, and a little bit of TLC. They aren't in your face (unless you're trying to do your accounting >.>) and are very independent. I like animals that can for the most part look after themselves.

They are also very clean and do not require you to walk them.

As I have zero interest in running around a park with a pet cats seem ideal to me.

[Ozz]

I read somewhere that LSI can withstand a lot of pain. I disagree and I believe that these discomforts need to be taken cared of ASAP. It'll ruin my mood otherwise.

[bolong]

I read somewhere that LSI can withstand a lot of pain. I disagree and I believe that these discomforts need to be taken cared of ASAP. It'll ruin my mood otherwise.

My bf (LSI-Se, 1w8) would rather face daily tooth pain than go to the dentist. He would rather keep a deeply cut finger wrapped in bandages than open it up and face having to go to a doctor for stitches. At one point in his life he was roaming in some eastern jungles and was beaten up by an entire hostile village.

Basically he can face any amount of pain "in the field," but balks completely at sitting in one place while a professional inflicts momentary pain for his overall good. He has to be conned, coaxed, bribed or threatened first.

[anndelise]

My bf (LSI-Se, 1w8) would rather face daily tooth pain than go to the dentist. He would rather keep a deeply cut finger wrapped in bandages than open it up and face having to go to a doctor for stitches. At one point in his life he was roaming in some eastern jungles and was beaten up by an entire hostile village.

Basically he can face any amount of pain "in the field," but balks completely at sitting in one place while a professional inflicts momentary pain for his overall good. He has to be conned, coaxed, bribed or threatened first.

You have just described the male species.
(Or at least one of their stereotypes, lol.)

[FDG]

You have just described the male species.
(Or at least one of their stereotypes, lol.)

Yeah lol. I also do all that stuff

[Ozz]

My bf (LSI-Se, 1w8) would rather face daily tooth pain than go to the dentist.

Wow. I would be worried about permanent damage that i'll rush to the dentist as soon as possible.

Say, I have a couple of alternate theory about why someone might potentially avoid the dentist:

• he has had a bad experience with dentist before
• he doesn't have dental insurance

Do any of these apply to your bf?

[Absurd]

You can stop a toothache if you know how to, I did. And ease your pain, of course, while thinking about visiting the dentist. As for LSI and indulging in pain, LSIs better visit the dentist or watch this scene on repeat.

That means all of yous LSI 1w8, 1w9, 1w3, 1w6, and 1w7 out there.

[bolong]

Wow. I would be worried about permanent damage that i'll rush to the dentist as soon as possible.

Say, I have a couple of alternate theory about why someone might potentially avoid the dentist:

• he has had a bad experience with dentist before
• he doesn't have dental insurance

Do any of these apply to your bf?

Yea, he had a bad experience in that he went once and there was pain involved with whatever the dentist did, so he hasn't gone since. Lol.

[bolong]

You can stop a toothache if you know how to, I did.

My bf knows how to as well, he drinks.

And ease your pain, of course, while thinking about visiting the dentist. As for LSI and indulging in pain, LSIs better visit the dentist or watch this scene on repeat.

For some reason I was expecting that tooth pulling scene from Oldboy.. and I was too scared to watch this after reading the title.

[Absurd]

My bf knows how to as well, he drinks.

Typical LSI. I had something else in mind though.

[Kill4Me]

My bf (LSI-Se, 1w8) would rather face daily tooth pain than go to the dentist. He would rather keep a deeply cut finger wrapped in bandages than open it up and face having to go to a doctor for stitches. At one point in his life he was roaming in some eastern jungles and was beaten up by an entire hostile village.

Basically he can face any amount of pain "in the field," but balks completely at sitting in one place while a professional inflicts momentary pain for his overall good. He has to be conned, coaxed, bribed or threatened first.

sheesh

[bolong]

no it's not.

@A Grain of a Song of Sand

Alright, I found the evidence for this, so I'm coming back to it. You guys are right, it's not wikisocion, it's Reinin. Idk to what extent he has influenced the other sites, but I would assume quite a fair bit, since he is like, one of the original authors with a decently readable translation.

So, my hypothesis was: type descriptions written by ILE, therefore biased. Specifically against ILE's supervisee, LSI.

proof that Reinin is ILE:

In case of stirring relationships the things I sell my activator buys, and vice versa. We usually sell things pertaining to our second function. For example, a Don Quixote and a Hugo have stirring relationships. They usually 'sell' what the second function can offer regarding the third function, and they usually 'buy' what the first function can offer regarding the fourth function. This needs some clarifying. What does a Don Quixote sell? This type usually sells the way of understanding, the explanation of people’s relationships (this is exactly what I am doing now: I am, a Don Quixote, teaching you the way of socionics - a science which explains relationships between people). And what does a Don Quixote buy? This type is buying complete sensory feelings, experiences.

Now, look at what he has to say about as leading function:

Function #1– objective intuition: integrity of the external situation. The world should be always harmonious and complete – this is the principle of existence of this type. A wide spectrum of variants may exist according to the first function, though Don Quixote considers the world to be in order and harmony which are manifested in different ways. People of this type often create illusions for themselves that “everything will always be as it is now, that they will never die or be sick”: "Nothing will ever happen to me”.
A Don Quixote’s first function might be one of the possible reasons for aggression. People of this type do not plan ahead (unlike, for example, Holmes), but are acutely aware of the beginning of one period and the ending of another. Don Quixote is governed by this feeling. Think of a Don Quixote leaving for work in the morning. He is late, but he is planning on cutting a corner to be on time. He knows he will be five minutes late, but the boss will be five minutes late also. Anyway he will make it! At this moment his wife (Dreiser) says: “Listen, you are late anyway, take out the garbage on your way out”. This statement may provoke aggression, which Dreiser does not expect. But the boss’ reprimand “Why are you late?” will not cause aggression. Well, I am late, but I have had objective reasons to be late. It is normal. But this type will not tolerate when someone attempts to destroy the integrity of the external situation.

Now, compare to what he says about as a leading function for LSI:

my understanding, my worldview, and my school. A Maxim's motto is: “I understand the world, therefore I exist”. It is impossible to make them change their mind. The world is the way I understand it. Their understanding is very conservative, crystallized.
When attacked in the area of the first function, a Maxim becomes aggressive. In the area of the first function a person is confident of himself and leans on his own authority. In case of a Maxim this is their 'school', their view of the world, their ideas about the world. “I know how the world was made, who will teach me about heights and the depths. What evidence do you have to show for? I will explain away all your evidence!” If a Maxim runs into undisputable evidence which he can neither explain nor ignore, he (similar to a Robespierre) needs time to fill up the gaps in their belief system, to improve their world view making it complete and consistent from their point of view. He likes to analyze new data and draw independent conclusions, accepting or rejecting certain things.
It is easy to drive a Maxim to aggression, just tell them: “Your teacher has no idea what he is talking about!” Their reaction may be absolutely inadequate. And since their creative function is physical action, anything within their hand's reach may be hurled at you. I tried talking to a Maxim in the same manner and was nearly hit by a heavy object thrown at me.

These are some things that struck me:

Reinin gives a basic definition of the function, then gives an example of how this part of the ego will react when it is under attack (defensive).

For ILE, there is a basic description ("integrity of the external situation"). Then there are positive projections of , further clarifications of what it is capable of ("A wide spectrum of variants may exist according to the first function, though Don Quixote considers the world to be in order and harmony which are manifested in different ways.") And then, even when he talks about what does while on the defense, there are still justifications: "People of this type do not plan ahead (unlike, for example, Holmes), but are acutely aware of the beginning of one period and the ending of another." To give an idea of how may fall into trouble with external situations, he gives a specific example with an ESI wife (?) and a boss: "Think of a Don Quixote leaving for work in the morning. He is late, but he is planning on cutting a corner to be on time. He knows he will be five minutes late, but the boss will be five minutes late also. Anyway he will make it!" At this point the ESI wife butts in with a request to take out the trash, and only in this circumstance may ILE become aggressive. It's a subtle thing that Reinin does here, but it lessens the fallibility of this (his own) function; when he omits this with other functions, it makes them appear more fallible.

I don't see any justification like this with LSI's , nor any indication of what it is capable of doing. The circumstance of Ti's aggression is also not given any context.. they are just inflexible, and when Reinin's Ne tried to confront this, an LSI threw something at him.. I mean, this description of Ti is a reaction of an ILE to an LSI, and that too an ILE who is acutely aware that out of the only 2 asymmetrical relations in socionics, one of them is with this LSI.

Another reason that Reinin would have further cause to knock leading function Ti down a little bit is because he notices a discrepancy with supervision relations, in that when the supervisor becomes overbearing with their creative function (which is likely to happen often, since creative function is the area of self-expression and taking risks), then the supervisee just steps in with the same function, except it's leading:

Now, let us turn to a very unpleasant area of personality. The creative function of the supervisor is in the zone of the first function of the subordinate, i.e. if the former frightens the latter with his/her creative function, the latter simply destroys the former with the same function trying to change the very basis of the supervisor's existence. This unpleasant pressure at the level of personality organization is impossible to get rid of without the knowledge of the relationships between the types.

So yeah.. I think there was a bit of an incentive to make ILE appear maybe a little superior (after all a good chunk of the founders are this type), and part of this involved making any threat to them seem less valuable as a function. This info getting filtered and translated and finally reaching some socionics amateurs (I'm one too) would result in the general layman consensus of negative connotations associated with (rigid, narrow) and positive connotations associated with (spontaneous, possibilities).

[Disturbed]

One of the things is is that LSI are one of the most common types (at least in my home state of virginia and especially the county i live in) and on top of that they tend to stand out more; so they give wildly varying impressions. Under the talanov attributes, most LSI I've known of (and I know of so many) aren't like that at all; LSI tend to have poor insight into themselves and tend to not even see their own body language, so that has to do with it. The Se subtype is more self-controlled, more consistent in their own rules, less willing to change for other people, and much less reactive, much less angry and much calmer compared to the Ti subtype, but LSI are probably the most extraverted introverted type.