Beauty and the Beast

[marooned]

Wow where does this come from? ...Introverted Belle and Extroverted Beast? Belle is outgoing, popular among all the townspeople, kind and open with everyone... the Beast is reclusive, stays inside his castle, angry at anyone who bothers him during his downtime or visits him unexpectedly.

I'd like to hear a dichotomy explanation for this one, because INFjs are pretty typical introverts and shy and ESTjs are pretty typical extroverts and outgoing. By the way, out-going means one who typically goes out often... staying inside your castle all day doesn't count.

I'm really not very sure about either of these characters (or about anything in socionics as my sig may point to). But I would possibly disagree with Belle as being "outgoing". She may seem so when she going through the town singing (but she has to do this because she's a Disney cartoon character), but it's more her own private song to herself. Her trip through the town is to go to the library so she can get more reading materials, as apparently she spends most of her time "with her nose in a book" and although the town's people pay a huge amount of attention to her because they think she's odd and that her behavior just isn't right (i.e. her behavior of ignoring all of them and all of their customs and burying her head in books all day before returning home to her overly weird father where I assume she spends most of her time), I wouldn't say she's "popular" with them, at least not in a good way where they all adore her. They all notice her because she's weird to them (either they dislike her for being so, are jealous of her because of her looks, or in the case of Gaston see her as something that outshines the others to possess probably because of how she doesn't come off as approachable since she's always ignoring the towns people and often some of the things going on around her--I mean Gaston had to take her book from her and throw it in a mud puddle to finally get her full attention--he sees her as a challenge since she's the only girl in town who doesn't pay any attention to him).

Of course Belle also seems rather initiative-taking I suppose. She's just waiting for something to happen to give her an excuse to leave the "provincial little town." And she's frequently exclaiming things rather enthusiastically.

I'm thinking about this more.

[DirectorAbbie]

I don’t think how you personally “relate” to fictional, internally-inconsistent characters in a family movie is a great way of typing.

I agree. I was pointing out that someone else's typing-by-relating wouldn't work.

[Creepy-male]

So I would say that while everything you said is true of the prologue, the Beast we see in the rest of the movie is simply a different person.

Actually I'm saying he is the same person, however, in enneagram terms the beast goes from being an unhealthy 3 to an unhealthy 4. The character shift that occurs is e3 -> e4, he goes from being a heartless narcissistic prince to a withdrawn self-ashamed beast. I mean the literal beast thing and stuff is just there for the kids, but the actual plotline or story arc of the beast's character is concerning a 3 to 4 heartfix shift. The beast is basically an unhealthy 4. Here are the quotes from 4 - Enneagram Type Four: The Individualist on unhealthy 4's.

Level 7: When dreams fail, become self-inhibiting and angry at self, depressed and alienated from self and others, blocked and emotionally paralyzed. Ashamed of self, fatigued and unable to function.

Level 8: Tormented by delusional self-contempt, self-reproaches, self-hatred, and morbid thoughts: everything is a source of torment. Blaming others, they drive away anyone who tries to help them.

belle by contrast is an e2 heartfix, trying to help him out and his attitude is reproachful, aloof, and self-loathing. Thinking and instinctual characteristic play very little in the disney story, the story arc is mainly feel good fairy tale stuff inject with disney animation, musicals, and kid friendly characters.

The reason I object to e8 is mainly because the e8 is a lot more practical, action oriented, body fixated, and extroverted. A typical 8 wouldn't be in a castle all emo and aloof and upset for no reason, a typical e8 would be productive and out making connections and trying to make stuff happen in a practical action oriented way. e8's rarely get all emotional, they tend to be more instinctive and bodily centered than introspective, soul-searching, or contemplative. Their orientation is outward, involved in the action, and less focused inward.

The prologue is basically straight from the fairytale.

Yea I looked up the story on wikipedia, apparently it came from a french story that was written sometime between the medevial age and the modern era. Apparently in that story, there are some differences, but the basic concept is the same that is presented in the prologue.

The beast character we see in the rest of the movie is the character Disney made up, who is totally different, just like Ariel is (slightly) less spoiled than the Ariel in the fairytale, and Hades is more jocular than he is portrayed in Greek mythology, and Esmerelda is less stupid than in the book.

Yea there is a lot of disneying in the story, like there is no candlestick and teapot character, those are the typical fun kid friendly characters. Then there is no musical stuff. Second of all there is no gaston in the original literature. He was added probably to portray the contrast between him and the beast. Also originally the beast isn't literally a beast. Then there are minor flubs in the story... like belle just doesn't accidentally stumble into the castle or whatever, the "beast" apparently kidnaps her father, a merchant on business, and forces her to stay in the estate with him. All the animation and musical stuff are to make it fun and kid friendly, and the story was reordered slightly. It's pretty much in the fairy tale spirit, because after a while all those little tales and whatever got re-written in Europe's romanticism period and adopted by disney in the 20th century.

[717495]

Beast is somewhat harder to type, but Belle and Gaston seem pretty obvious. You constantly get the feel of Belle's Ni fantasy/imagination dominance with the Fe style of INFp humanitarianism/sociability: sizing up the grander implication of the community's character and dealing with people effectively through words and gesturing, yet obviously disconnecting from their reality because of Ni. She's pretty unconscious of Ne. Ne Disney characters are usually like "I long for something new I've never seen before," and even Ni types have that aspect deep within them, but they miss it, it's not a strong theme of their dominating personality. What Belle longs for it seems as though she's already seen and developed countless times in her imagination. What shines through is the Te oppression from Gaston + his expectations (I relate to him in that way of wanting a reasonable plan), but he seems pretty Ni-PoLR and "fake-Se" (that is, not Se ignoring, but mimicking). Belle longs for someone much more free spirited, adventurous and indirect, but also that bold, maybe daring, personality (the exact same way for me, how I see Se dominants like ESTps as very wise and at their best engulfed in the moment) where like Gaston is pretty controlling/rational-seeming. ESTps have a much more spontaneous and free feel to me, and their Se is pure and unfiltered. Belle goes with the ISTj in the end because of her similarities to him, something I've seen myself others do with their activation partner. Sort of "live out" or "support" each others fantasy, so to speak. What's cool about Disney is that they make types and their themes pretty easy to grasp.

Belle - INFp
Beast - ISTj
Gaston - ESTj

[DirectorAbbie]

Belle - INFp
Beast - ISTj
Gaston - ESTj

No way. I don't know enough about ISTjs to say anything regarding the beast, but Belle doesn't strike me as an IEI, and Gaston is certainly not an LSE. He's a blatant -valuing braggart who sucks up attention.

[Aleksei]

I agree that Gaston is not LSE, but I'm not altogether certain Belle is not IEI.

[Creepy-male]

No way. I don't know enough about ISTjs to say anything regarding the beast, but Belle doesn't strike me as an IEI, and Gaston is certainly not an LSE. He's a blatant -valuing braggart who sucks up attention.

I could see ISTj on the basis of three things

• Introverted
• Beta Quadra
• ST Club

I could see IEI for Belle also, on the basis of NF, however I would go for a delta NF instead, belle seems much more Fi oriented, however this messes up the symmetry with quadra values

Finally I disagree with Se Gaston, he isn't Se at all, he is a typically narcissistic braggart and doesn't have any real Se. All his Se is the fake kind. He pretends to be really tough and manly, hunting, but he's a womanly man who likes looking at how beautiful he is in the mirror. His bold assertiveness comes from the ExxJ temperament, while the ST club is obvious. In a modern sense Gaston would probably be a typical d-bag white hat wearing jock who uses hair care products that say "For Men" so that he can sleep soundly without feeling too much like a woman. He probably also takes bubble baths listening to Enya and once kissed a frat boy and secretly enjoyed it. He basically is the image of a man's man and not a real man's man. Se is extremely down to earth, they come across shallow, realistic, pragmatic, unimaginative, and cynical.... but they usually are too grounded to be narcissists. Se types are likely to be a little cruel and shallow by giving ugly/weak/disadvantaged people a hard time and such and being brutally honest because they lack the imagination to see reality for anything than what it ACTUALLY is right now.... however that is not the same kind of thing as being shallow like a narcissist. Narcissism and vanity are much more of an ExxJ thing.

[DirectorAbbie]

Finally I disagree with Se Gaston, he isn't Se at all, he is a typically narcissistic braggart and doesn't have any real Se. All his Se is the fake kind. He pretends to be really tough and manly, hunting, but he's a womanly man who likes looking at how beautiful he is in the mirror. His bold assertiveness comes from the ExxJ temperament, while the ST club is obvious. In a modern sense Gaston would probably be a typical d-bag white hat wearing jock who uses hair care products that say "For Men" so that he can sleep soundly without feeling too much like a woman. He probably also takes bubble baths listening to Enya and once kissed a frat boy and secretly enjoyed it. He basically is the image of a man's man and not a real man's man. Se is extremely down to earth, they come across shallow, realistic, pragmatic, unimaginative, and cynical.... but they usually are too grounded to be narcissists.

If his is the fake kind, he's EIE. SLEs are often narcissists. They find it funny to announce to the world that they're the greatest at everything. An LSE could not act like Gaston and still think himself worthy of a girl.

[Creepy-male]

They find it funny to announce to the world that they're the greatest at everything.

Nah Se-types are competitive which is different. They are experience junkies, because their base function is all about the most external aspects of reality... if nothing exciting is going on, they have to create something exciting, so they get competitive frequently, and really get engrossed in the moment of it. They are driven by experiences, and usually have a great penchant for recalling stories, but there language in retelling stories is usually filled with concrete down to earth language describing the direct experience in realistic terms. To others this can seem to be competitive, boisterous, and braggart like, but really its them injecting some excitement (Fe-HA) into what they consider a boring environment. If you actually ask an Se-type to compare themselves to others on their skills, usually they will be fairly down to earth about themselves and their abilities. The problem is with Se-types is that they occasionally will go to great ends to create a "smoke screen" of their persona, trying to frame themselves in a purely positive light and forgo any negativity, except around people they trust (which are few), this to them isn't narcissism as much as a survival mechanism-- they describe it as optimism and self-confidence though, and to others it seems like shallow egotism. Generally Se-types especially ESTp tend to type enneagram wise more around the e7 and e8 fix than around the e3 fix.

An LSE could not act like Gaston and still think himself worthy of a girl.

Remember all ST's have weak Intuition and Feeling, although LSEs value exclusively Fi and Ne, while undervaluing Fe and Ni. So that is to say, LSE's aren't skilled at Fi, they suck at it just as much as a SLE, its just that while SLEs don't value Fi and find it a bother, LSE's seek after it and can't provide it.

[DirectorAbbie]

My house must be really boring, then. So my SLE brother tries to spice things up withsome annoying . We try to spice it up with and he decides we're all stupid. The beeping blanket.

Remember all ST's have weak Intuition and Feeling, although LSEs value exclusively Fi and Ne, while undervaluing Fe and Ni. So that is to say, LSE's aren't skilled at Fi, they suck at it just as much as a SLE, its just that while SLEs don't value Fi and find it a bother, LSE's seek after it and can't provide it.

But since LSEs value , they will try to avoid doing things considered unethical according to it, like throwing themselves around town as a big ugly show-off.

[Creepy-male]

But since LSEs value , they will try to avoid doing things considered unethical according to it, like throwing themselves around town as a big ugly show-off.

I see it different, I think valuing a function isn't so much about valuing what it represents, but valuing receiving support in that field.

In other words LSEs don't have any better values and ethics than an SLE, but what they do have is a much larger appreciation for that stuff. They don't have a better skill with the function they have a better appreciation for it. LSEs generally try to behave according to what they feel is "Proper" and "Sensible" and therefore they attract Fi-types which help them realize a feeling-based reason behind why this or that is "proper". I think its a stretch but Gaston likely is just behaving like a flamboyant braggart because society tells him this is the proper role for men and that its proper he acts this way and in return he can expect a trophy wife and receive much Fi-care from her.

[DirectorAbbie]

I think its a stretch but Gaston likely is just behaving like a flamboyant braggart because society tells him this is the proper role for men and that its proper he acts this way and in return he can expect a trophy wife and receive much Fi-care from her.

That's a long shot, but a legitimate claim.

[DividedsGhost]

Without considering relations, any type conclusions become as inconsistence as MBTI. I assure that's not a good idea.

And Lucid, you are an Se-valuing fag. :wink:

[DirectorAbbie]

Without considering relations, any type conclusions become as inconsistence as MBTI. I assure that's not a good idea.

Reminds me of my New Year's resolution.

I favor silverchris's posts in this thread.

[Creepy-male]

And Lucid, you are an Se-valuing fag. :wink:

Maybe, I don't know.... but regardless most of what I am writing about Se is coming from recalling personal experiences with Se-types, I've had two good friends that were SLE and there are three LSI's in my mom's family (Grandfather, Mother, and Uncle).... so I've seen a lot of Se from people I've known. It's been a major chunk of the values that permiate in my relationships with friends and family. Alot of people look at Se in a negative light and betas as well, but real successful SLEs are like Donald Trump, FDR Roosevelt, and Teddy Roosevelt. They make great leaders, practical results oriented people, great communicators, and the like. They aren't just always the annoying braggart, throughout human history there have been many charismatic SLEs that contributed positively to mankind and they all share at a certain general level a particular psychological orientation towards Se and to a lesser extent Ti.

[717495]

He's a blatant -valuing braggart who sucks up attention.

I just explained why he's not Se. Maybe to you that's how Se is, where as I'm pretty sure that's just how some extroverted guys, especially Fi valuing guys, can be. Is he too extroverted for your taste?

[ashlesha]

poli what on earth is your avatar?

and belle/gaston can't be IEI/LSE bc i relate to belle and dislike gaston DUH THAT'S HOW IT WORKS

[717495]

Maybe Belle wants you to convert to her type?

Oh my avatar is nice, its some kind of LTTP fan remake.

[Creepy-male]

poli what on earth is your avatar?

and belle/gaston can't be IEI/LSE bc i relate to belle and dislike gaston DUH THAT'S HOW IT WORKS

You probably relate to belle because she is the smart, bookwormy, caring, empathetic, dreamer girl. I think any NF/NT girl would relate to her, I've heard this from other people actually oddly enough.

Gaston, lol I'd be swayed by your arguments more if I actually believed there was a single person that liked Gaston out there... come on the guy is villian for a kid's story, the character was designed in the disney vault laboratory to be hated, they probably tested the character on little kids to make sure they hated him.

[Wildelita]

Belle - IEI
Beast - LSI( probably) or SLE
Gaston - SEE ( in my opinion all Renaissance villains are aggressors, besides Jafar, Scar and Hades)
Maurice - ILE
Mrs Potts - SEI
Lumiere - one of ethical extraverts.
Cogsworth - LII or ILI, perhaps.

[Velvet]

EII - LSE, the whole story is very Fi/Te imo

[kinderlich]

Yeah, I skipped through the wikipedia article on it and was like . They seem to have meddled with the plot, too. Whatever.

Hi, I love your cats. Byes

[kinderlich]

I see it as delta story, so Belle is EII, Beast is LSE. And of course the bad guy is beta, Gaston is SLE. From beta POV it inverts and Gaston is the secret hero.