Sorry.Originally Posted by Sol
I will see if I can screenshot some of the steps I used to get past that. Can you copy/paste the message so I don't have to look through them all, please? A lot going on irl right now.
Sorry.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I took a look at this site [link] and sol seems to follow it by the book but uses different terminology when describing what he is doing. I looked around it and the translations were so awful I gave up. I realized a long ago it was useless to argue his perception but I admire your desire to get him to spill the facts of his method and see the error of his ways.
The Russian link was not really helpful in determining why he even calls it intuition rather than sensing. Intuition would not be so precise with the concrete interpretations. They do not seem fluid to me. That comes with reflection. I think he is Ti ignoring having read through these two links as I see no other way to explain it. If he wants to reject you as a dual it is due to his faulty perception of your use of Fi from my point of view. He is imagining your are just spouting Fe and being emotional or whatever. He needs to knock that off.
http://socionika.info/errors.html
I don't see where he reflects on his typings beyond the first impression based on physical things. I actually agree it is physiognomy no matter how your try to spin it.The seventh function is restrictive (observational) , it serves to track information on its aspect coming from outside, monitors the excessive manifestations of such information. In addition, the restrictive function works if the person feels pressure, which forces him to defend himself.
The seventh function of Stirlitz is structural logic , due to which he always adheres to established rules and order, he also demands this from others. He does not like long lengthy arguments, he aspires to pass quickly from words to deeds.
The eighth function is demonstrative (background) , it works automatically, constantly, without focusing attention. The eighth function - strong - willed sensorics , all questions related to the protection of the territory, its expansion, are solved by Stirlitz automatically, subconsciously, silently. He never uses force to suppress, humiliate or seize power. He does not tolerate lazy people and hackers around him, he will always try to make them work, but he is often unpleasant to use force, so it is much easier for him to communicate with people who do not need to be forced and forced. The block formed by the seventh and eighth functions is called the ID . Its functions are highly developed, but they are realized unconsciously.
http://socionika.info
They are sensory impressions from what I can tell. Not intuitive at all, in a socionics way. I am not trying to cause conflict with him. This is just how I see him using the information from that site.
Maybe one day you will accept each other as duals or conflictors or just agree to disagree. He will realize duality isn't all sunshine and rainbows. That his duals will not always make him feel comfortable. Good luck with him. :/
p.s. I could be all wrong.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Thanks Aylen, I'm sorry to cause this conflict because it shatters the forum down to see Sol being taken down of his "boss of socionics" place. I just hate this position he has somehow forced others to accept, either it's "Sol's typing or it doesn't make sense (or something like that)", at least for someone.
So I'm having a great satisfaction in bringing his theory down because I think it deprives people of critical thinking, at least in the way that most of the people that use this forum everyday seem to submit to him.
I know the 8 model functions, and I even know that if I read most of profiles I'll recognize myself in every Polr and 7th function description, in a good part.
What matters in the end of the day is the 1st and second functions, all the rest I think it's too subtle to be really pinpointed and grasped from this kind of interactions. I even think he knows pretty damn well how to behave to make his image come as perfect as a LSE as possible. He looks like a charicature of himself sometimes, which is very suspicious to me, but even further boosting my idea that he's not a LSE, because he's too personal.
Thanks for not yelling at me, I'm being bored. I'll stop soon ^^
I think what he's trying to say is physiognomy is taking an actual measurement of physical proportions and mechanistically running them through the equivalent of an excel spreadsheet in order to produce a result. you might say he's unconsciously doing the same thing via his brain, but he would say that's precisely the difference, that's he's not just making a series of unconscious quantitative judgements, but relaying qualitatively unique holistic perception. the irony is here that SLE views the world in those terms so its odd to see LSE lay claim to holistic perception, but it has to do with mobilizing v base and how people talk about the same things from different perspectives (and values). to LSE its important they reflect the outer situation "as it is" (Te/Ne) rather than what the group prefers (Fe), so there's this weird individualist contrarian streak in Sol, which is probably why he's with us in the first place. its a different kind of "realism" than SLE although they both like the word. SLE seems to actually serve up "group-motivated" realism despite being more of a consciously holistic perceiver. notice Viktor basically plays to the crowd but relies on the same "reputation" for reality. the most bizare thing about that whole dynamic is how adam fawned over Viktor when that dynamic should be anathema to LIE across every level, its both overly concrete, and simultaneously disingenuous inasmuch as its group-motivated and transparently context bound (not to mention Ti "aphorisms" are often empty tautologies, if you analyze them, where the truth is built in and meaningless except as a kind of linguistic scam). but maybe Adam has come to learn to appreciate the merits of such an approach I dunno. its obviously good for pulling certain types of chicks if that matters to you
I actually think Sol is doing a super Fi thing right now which is repelling and attracting the "right" kind of people, rather than caring about the Fe or Ti. and you can see IEI try to "fix" it and only make it worse, but its not really worse, it just is what it is. the more the Fe types unify in opposition to LSE the more his unconscious Fi seeking is activated, because he moves away relationally (subjective veiled repulsion-attraction), but he does not yield on the thinking or sensing aspect, which would be his actual "position" on the matter. in doing so it attracts the types that would recognize the situation for what it is (if there are any) and act in a conciliatory manner. in other words, the more people "take sides" the more the lines become clearer as to who is really what. i've long pointed this out in conflicts as they erupt because they function as watershed moments in revealing type and ITRs
in this sense the more people you "line up" as being Ti-refutations of Sol's reasoning and conclusion you only bring into relief the Fi aspect of who is attached to who and that reflects just as much on "true" type as a kind of group pressure/ti colored reasoning. anyone who would fall in line with such a battle call would be immediately under suspicion on those grounds as being receptive to Fe/Ti and not a dual or even a Fi valuer. this is colloquially what's seen as "personal loyalty" (loyalty to the person "right or wrong"), but it actually goes a lot deeper than that, since I don't have to be personally loyal to Sol to see that going on and fall on one side or the other, more like true to myself, and the same goes for anyone else who might join in for the same reasons
Last edited by Bertrand; 04-06-2018 at 07:30 PM.
I can actually see many similarities between us and that is why I do NOT type you IEI. I know that might not make sense to some since I also see many similarities between myself and those I do type IEI. I don't really tell people what I type them because I have that little bit of doubt in the back of my mind and I do not like being wrong for all to see. lol I seriously considered IEI for you. In the end it came down to the base function. Yours seems undeniably Fi. Strong enough to drown out that tiny bit of doubt in the back of my mind.
I would like to see @Sol explain why @niffer, @totalize, @Owl, you and I are Ni leads (IEI). Cognitively speaking.... Now that would be helpful to those trying to understand his typing methods. I am very familiar with the posts of all these people. I want to see him say it in his own words. I know the language thing could be an issue but I would read every word and ask for clarifications if I am not clear on what he is saying.
I used the spreadsheet to get those he types IEI.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I think it's really simple what he's doing, Bertrand. He's evaluating everyone based on the impressions they give him, as he himself said. So, "I like this I don't like that, I don't like it = Fe, I like it= magic". It's no intuition, it's sensory evaluation.
I'm really not judjing everyone on here for being personal, the contrary. I'm judjing "you" for considering Sol's opinion as "the real thing". I think if he's in this position it's because that was allowed, as we all started to see him like that... so some critical thinking is really needed, at least for someone *cough cough*. You can use all the methods you want, but don't portray them for something they're not. And use the correct terms, lol. Subjectivistivitivy? Or objectificationism?
Fe or not Fe, aha, it's pretty nonsense to evaluate on that, in this kind of school like forum, you're the queen of Fe of the forum, Bertrand, do you consider yourself a EIE? It seems like all of your defence doesn't walk on its own feet but it's just in defense of the guy you like. Is this gay Fe?
Aylen, I think too that I use Fi over Fe, but I gave up a while ago to think I'm an EII, I'm just keeping it there because.. IDK, the fun : p
this is a great little recapitulation of psychological types
I think this can superficially look like extroverted judgements, because it has to acknowledge the interplay of objects and their effects on eachother in a certain way, its whether or not the person in question is dominated by those objects as well. in other words, do objective relationships determine the ethical reality in the same way objective logical relationships determine the "right" course of action. in some sense I would concede it all must coincide, that however you get there, the end goal is really the same for all types, but I don't think of myself as Fe because its not what I look to whenever I act on anything, rather I try to see through things on the perceptual level and use what amounts to Fi to apprehend the object in order to manipulate that potential as best I can, not for consciously selfish aims but out of an inner logic of reciprocity and care... I would say latent in that are Te and Fe interpretations of the outer shell of all those actions, but as for me I think I'm doing something like Ne Fi. as an aside I do think objective logical relationships control the right course of action when it comes to non ethical scenarios, so I think the fallback is not Fe base but Te base. I can see how people perceive me as EIE though and all I can say is that's not how I view myself and I specifically have an idea of EIE in mind, because I run into them every once in a while, that is distinct from how I view myself[introverted feeling] aims to subordinate the object in order to realize underlying images
[conscious, extroverted] intuition is an attitude of expectancy and vision
I think in the final analysis the above is why people view me as manipulative, and I think the attribution of consciously attending to objective ethical factors and deciding on their basis is why people think I'm Fe, but it (Ne Fi v Fe) mirrors the same confusion that goes on between Se Ti and Te. the thing is we tend to view the world through our own lens so it is easy to interpret one another's actions through our preferred functions. I think in the final analysis Ne shows itself as deference to perspectives whereas Fe defers to the judgement, but psychologically sophisticated societies (and that is what the contemporary west is, despite the status of any individual) come to embrace heterogeneous values, so you have Se Ti trying to be Te and so forth, which way it is all flowing and what the truth of the matter is becomes caught up in a vortex of factors from which the objective source is nearly impossible to perceive, let alone convince anyone else of... if the idea is I am Fe trying to be Ne Fi, then I can see how it can be looked at that way, and perhaps there is some truth to that, but I would say it is in many ways the truth of 3d Fi 4d Ne 4d Fe with the "preference" but not capacity in dispute. inasmuch as that is the case I think the goal is not to identify with one but to hopefully merge with one's quasi... I think there is an alternate interpretation here of everything actually being a product of base Te, and an alternate interpretation here of everything actually being a product of Ti... you can see how this goes on forever.
all I will say is I drew my conclusions on the basis that you and Aylen were harassing (in a light hearted sense) Sol from a perspective so foreign to his own and all that was resulting was his further alienation on a deep level from you, i.e.: it was only deepening feelings of antipathy, because of how it was viewed as a deep threat to his own goals and values. although I think both sides would be quick to disclaim any bad intent or hurt feelings because they don't want to view themselves as either weak or aggressive or offensive or anything but well meaning, and more to the point, fair correct and unbiased in their assessments. but the ultimately whenever I perceive what I feel to be people ganging up on someone I feel compelled to point out the negative aspect to group leverage in almost any given scenario (although there are exceptions)
Last edited by Bertrand; 04-07-2018 at 01:13 AM.
nothing more to add = adds 20 lines about how being on Sol’s side makes him a Fi. lol
aha makes sense. since I think you’re a Fe and he’s a LSI )
the only one appealing to group behavior is you, here, Bertrand. the only one acting up, every time, to battle calls is you, here, Bertrand. I was talking to someone else, why did you even came up to take his side? lol, it must be love. Ah no sorry, you do just join every possible heated argument of the forum. So Fi of you ^^ Bertrand, the diplomatic that goes around saying “that’s why nobody here likes you”. Lol
I’m observing behaviours from outside of the entire forum dynamics, and judge what all this group came to be, because of someone, and this is Fe. noone’s lining up with me, but you lining with the "cool dudes" makes you FiLOL ok ok
holy moly projectionitivitivism
Disagreements push me to think a little more about the subject. Sometimes this leads to changing of opinion [after some time] or to finding better arguments to follow by same way. Also when someone argues by this he calls to argue with him and to help understand me better.
I know that what I do will stay after me and understand that this may help someones to understand the duality and its importance. IR work with my perception. It will take some time when my perception will become the perception of others.
> The Russian link was not really helpful in determining why he even calls it intuition rather than sensing.
Because it's intuitive impression [from nonverbal] about people's psyche traits. While sensing describes only material, not inner psyche.
During the typing I operate by impressions about psychical traits, what for the consciousness looks by [for example] descriptions of dichotomies - I'm trying to feel is the human closer to description of T or F types, and similar do with other traits. The VI of Augustinavichiute is similar - intuitive impressions from [for example] psyche of S vs N people - you should to feel impression of which side is stronger and how much is the balance to be sure in this trait.
> If he wants to reject you as a dual
I expressed doubts in her EII type in the profile in the summer. As she talked too chaotic and there was Fe mostly. She said that placed EII because was typed as INFP. She gave video and I've became assured in IEI. Also I tried to explain her why INFP is IEI. Recently I saw her opinion about own type as xNFx, so she may later to accept her type.
I remember how you insisted that Maritsa is EII, which is EIE. I'm not sure have you changed that opinion.
> He will realize duality isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
I know what are different IR not badly, better than most. Saw bad related to F region from the familiar EII and ESI. Understand there are non-types factors [I saw rather differing people of the same type], understand that weak functions are bad in anyone and that strong functions may work not perfectly and not always how I'd liked.
The duality is important factor for good close friendship, but not the absolute and the only one.
I understand what to expect from different IR, what good and bad specific every IR has.
I'd liked ooo and other cute girls appeared as my duals.
I'd prefer to have relations with EII (or mb ESI, IEE) and being "realizing duality isn't all sunshine and rainbows" than with a woman of other type, relations with which would look better from the side. Excluding mb rare hard non-types negative factors. Almost always the risk to deal with dual woman is more reasonable than with other types, the experience is pleasant and self-improving. Issues with EII would point to my issues as a person which I may and would be good for me to improve for the usefulness own and of other people. If it's EII indeed.
> and that is why I do NOT type you IEI
in Maritsa case your main argument was seems like "she knows herself better"
F types...
> I would like to see @Sol explain why @niffer, @totalize, @Owl, you and I are Ni leads (IEI)
such are the impressions of my fine intuition
From nonverbal I feel you all Fe, N and I, feel some P. Have no IR effects fitting to other types, like Fi ones. ooo, totalize and Owl wrote something also fitting to IEI. You are talking a little more reasonably and lesser chaotic among them, in general. From niffer I did not see a video, so am lesser sure in her case.
> Now that would be helpful to those trying to understand his typing methods.
Cognitively speaking I'll offer them to look my types examples and give me their video, so they'd could to check the degree my examples fit to IR theory.
> I am very familiar with the posts of all these people. I want to see him say it in his own words.
The logical analysis of the messages is too hard and meanwhile speculative to explain a type with assurance. Besides they may have no enough data for this as are random but not special typing text material. While questionnaires have high chance to be made with misleading distortions. All is bad with texts and verbal methods when they are applied to people who know the theory.
My examples should to work better. In case of ooo, the comparision of her texts with the ones I've pointed as base Fi also may help. She's rather more chaotic and lesser politely talking. If you'll accept my opinion about ooo, you'll be easier to accept other my opinions. Just compare her with them - youself.
> if I am not clear on what he is saying
when you doubt, you may assume it's always the same - the Truth
Last edited by Sol; 04-09-2018 at 12:48 PM.
I agree that Maritsa is EIE (and by this I mean she fits my perception of an EIE--whether I am right or wrong about that), and that further Aylen has been developing as a personality a lot since I first encountered her, such that she has distinguished herself from the "bad" Ni types I run into, which are people who are super pushy and aggressive across that perceptual level. in fact I would say that is what defines EIE, the ability to run with a specific, albiet dubious interpretation, and escalate the situation emotionally in order to hammer it home. Aylen used to be more like that, and now shes way more reasonable as far as I can tell. maybe this is me in fact being a big fat EIE, but I don't think so, but does any EIE really view themselves as a bully?
It’s funny cause I’ve read the entire paper from Augusta, I’ve read the entire Jung’s types… and nothing of that is applied by yourself, although you claim you do.
Augusta: Fi are cold looking, Jung: Fi are cold looking
Sol: Fi, cutest warm people in the test
Augusta: Te don’t talk too much, asking, dynamic; Jung: Te go by what is considered objective
Sol: talks much of his subjective impressions
Augusta: doesn’t talk about non verbal Ne; Jung: doesn’t talk about non verbal
Sol: only relies on non verbal Ne (?)
Augusta: doesn’t talk of IR relationships, except dual; Jung: doesn’t talk about IR
Sol: relies only on IR
Augusta: NiFe shows sexual restraint; Jung: NiFe are mostly mystics and prophets
Sol: NiFe are the most prone to cheat
Augusta: Ni don’t take the initiative as most introverts; Jung: Niaresubmissed to their visions
Sol: Ni are the first to approach dual -SLE-
Augusta: The creative function is the one used to produce results; Jung: we all use a secondary function in support to the first
Sol: I use my HA
Again, it’s totally cool if you use your own socionics methods, but they’re your own, not classical, and quite far from “the theory”.
Perhaps you should consider starting your own Solcionics, and stop misquoting the fonts.
Last edited by ooo; 04-07-2018 at 06:06 PM.
i bet if you actually cited quotes from these alleged contradictions (and by all sides) it could easily be explained
if by explained you mean twisting everything in support of how Fi you are for constantly kissing Sol's ass, well you do it anyway, no need for my citations.
Now, please, start the show, take 10 minutes to look at those references up and show the world your kissing abilities. : )
uh no
IR theory for all 16 its kinds was developed by Augustinavichiute.
The degree of your ignorance is funny.
perhaps you missed the part where I said "I've read the Duality essay" (that you quote as reference without following it), my list is based on it. It's you to spread ignorance and bias, now don't project.
@Aylen I believe that we are not the only ones that Sol types as IEI. I've seen his typings all around the forum and some people are lucky to survive it as EIEs, but most, less fortunate ones, get out as IEIs. I think that by now, he has typed about 90 % of this forum as some sort of beta ethical types. In my humble opinion, Sol simply tries to protect his fragile 1 dimensional emotional side from getting a heart break from a "fake" delta NF.
This... let's say... an attempt to create sentences... explains nothing and it only shows that Sol has no idea what he's talking about it. I feel like his fine intuition might be mistaking as he clearly cannot back up his opinion with absolutely any logical conclusion, argument or a proof. This @Sol shows a complete lack of Te, if not its absolute devaluation. How can you type someone based on a "feeling"? What is it even? It's the most vague explanation I have ever read. Show us a proof, an actual evidence of one's type, and no... saying that you feel like someone's an IEI or an EIE or whatever you like... that does NOT count as a proof. An evidence is something that can be clearly and without a doubt understood by everyone, not just by you. Otherwise it's just a nonsense.such are the impressions of my fine intuition
From nonverbal I feel you all Fe, N and I, feel some P. Have no IR effects fitting to other types, like Fi ones. ooo, totalize and Owl wrote something also fitting to IEI. You are talking a little more reasonably and lesser chaotic among them, in general. From niffer I did not see a video, so am lesser sure in her case.
But I think it's not very wise to ask for Sol's opinion because you usually just get a lot of semi intelligent words, written in very bad grammar, completely ignoring the existence of syntax. And so... everything that google translate translates wrong to Russian, he sees as a sign of chaotic thinking, usually characteristic for irrational type. So by that philosophy... we all are irrationals.
Good luck google translate I trust you to not mash up my type
ahahahah Owl <3 I've thought the same about the translator!
As your profile empty now, it's interesting to point that you thought your type as IEI recently. And you did not changed the opinion to that other type is more probable for you.
> I've seen his typings all around the forum and some people are lucky to survive it as EIEs, but most, less fortunate ones, get out as IEIs.
Previously you only believed and now you have gotten the vision.
Would be good if you'd pointed (with the links) which ones else I've typed with assurance to IEI and EIE.
> I think that by now, he has typed about 90 % of this forum as some sort of beta ethical types.
I did not typed all members of this forum, to asume that 90% of them were related to some types.
> In my humble opinion, Sol simply tries to protect his fragile 1 dimensional emotional side from getting a heart break from a "fake" delta NF.
As more possible reason that a lot IEI are in my lists (meanwhile actresses and bloggers are doubful to be able break my heart), as I had deep and long feelings to a conflictor girl in past. This mb the reason why such girls are easier to catch my attention [besides conflictors are attractive], and mb easier to be typed. Also some places and occupations have unequal spread of types.
> it only shows that Sol has no idea what he's talking about it
So your idea is I type very badly because I typed a lot to IEI.
> I feel like his fine intuition might be mistaking
In my experiment with nonverbal typing I got average typing match with others close to best ones. I type by nonverbal not worse than average, at least. Also you agreed with my type for you at the end, and now you are "typeless".
ooo will agree later, as she types herself as xNFx now, hence she's not sure in EII and knows that to be shy is common for introverts.
Aylen I typed to IEI by video, she thinks herself same.
Totalize thought himself as LIE for some time. I said IEI. At now he's not sure in his type.
> as he clearly cannot back up his opinion with absolutely any logical conclusion, argument or a proof.
I can analyse questionnaires and behavior by logic as anyone. I prefer to do not do this as this is also highly speculative, info is lesser trustworthy, while the process needs more resources. Also you could to see here my logical arguments, for example that I find ooo behavior as not enough polite for Fi and chaotic for J, to reject EII for her.
Anyone may himself to analyse bloggers and other people typed by me by behavioral ways to check whether is my version correct. Also take into account what people say about themselves is not always true when they know the types theory and all words and behavior interpretations are highly speculative (the reason of <20% typing matches).
As the general skills proof you may look at my examples of men and then women to notice which sex fits to IR theory and to what degree with your IEI type. There you need to follow my recommendation, but not to choose which are prettier like seems you did.
> This Sol shows a complete lack of Te, if not its absolute devaluation.
So another genius idea is that don't using of T method as the main, because I find this as lesser effective, - is the lack of Te in my type.
> How can you type someone based on a "feeling"?
by Ne. correctly or incorrectly
until the behavior of typed fits good to the theory I'm satisfied with the accuracy
how to check the quality of my "impossible" typing was above. also the typing match of nonverbal method in my experiment was comparable with other today typing methods: average 15-20%, max pair 30-40%, and it's far more than random 1/16
> Show us a proof, an actual evidence of one's type, and no...
You may analyse the behavior of people typed by me and notice the degree it fits to the theory. You may get the proof by yourself for the cases. Like you got it before agreed with my opinion about your type.
> An evidence is something that can be clearly and without a doubt understood by everyone, not just by you. Otherwise it's just a nonsense.
Speculative opinion about type. Same what give others, - other methods without objective proof are also speculative and give similar matches. The opinion may be correct or not. To check the opinion by behavioral "evidences" for cases mb done without me.
> But I think it's not very wise to ask for Sol's opinion
It's very wise to ignore the reality where nonverbal method gives real matches compared to other methods. Where IR test gave results which sometimes help to understand the type. Where my real typing match with others is not worse than average. Where can be seen that behavior and IR effects of typed by me fit to the theory.
Because my main method uses N function, but not T. And some your delusions or misunderstandings.
Also it's wise to say that you have no type like you did before. And more wiser then to argue about typing methods to identify the types which does not exist for you.
> everything that google translate translates wrong to Russian, he sees as a sign of chaotic thinking
your fantasy may be compared only to your lack of reason
Be more adequate and return IEI in your profile. It's one of objective traits of your "Myself" what is placed there now. As you are still discussing types, one of which if yours. The wise one.
Seems I need to make a FAQ, as I get similar questions and arguments about nonverbal method.
The wisdom of two girls with the same type should be comparable.
Irrational negativism to the reality and stupid rationalizations of it, in the favour of moment's emotions - is your wisdom, according to polr T of the both.
Last edited by Sol; 04-09-2018 at 12:45 PM.
the IEI standard for "logic" I believe is part of the game they play with SLE. base Ni allows them to shift and slip away and manipulate their dual (in a good way), but is just kind of irritating for everyone else, because they make impossible demands and won't stop bleating about it. for SLE it supplies constant motivation but for others its just like constant wear and tear impelling someone toward an impossible and ever changing goal post. for someone who lives their life like a non stop sports competition this is amusing, but for everyone else its quite tiresome. my advice is just to ignore them on this point when it starts happening
It was mostly funny to refresh the theme a little.
Also the answers on common complaints about nonverbal method could be useful here.
ooo tried to help me from logical side. it was cute
oh I see, carry on then
Sol, further BS. You used to type Aylen ESI/EII, and she’s even the only girl from here whom you befriended. Perhaps, based on IR, you should reconsider your type. Conflicts should create conflict after all.
It’s not surprising to see you type everyone IEI, because you type none as EII. But all those EIIs then have to fall somewhere. So it’s only just the laziest option to retype them IEIs. But God forbid, no EIIs in here.
(Don’t worry Bertrand, I’m sure that if you keep this fine job of yours, submitting to everything Sol says, he’ll promote you to EII soon)
I’m definitely not nice when people push my limits and I don’t like them (it’s even described in the classic Ausra theory as a sign of Fi, and it’s one of the reasons you once told to Aylen she was a Fi), but it’s your usual bias to claim that. Look at Bertrand’s unexplainable rudeness against everything/everyone for a change, you type that Fi. But you just type that Fi because he’s the only one who kisses your ass. And I guess he just kisses your ass because you’re the only one to type him Fi. (lol smh)
Chaotic sounds funny when it comes from the guy who types like an eel on meth, follows his N, and changes his opinions everytime I find faults in his arguments. Again, I guess Bertrand’s so much less chaotic for making his usual 20 pages long posts that are often an insult to any logical sense. But I don’t think you’ll ever be able to tell that, so don’t worry about it. Anyway, there’s no “chaotic” in socionics, this must be yet another one of your acute Ne impressions.
Oh, and just following you reasoning, by the amount of agreement between you 2, we have 2 LSEs now! But actually... 2 unknown types that lick each other’s ass while playing Iknowitall is a better fit. Eheheh. 1x0= 0.
so much for delta's "live and let live" philosophy with all these garbage arguments stemming from forced categorizations, as if you absolutely cannot be at peace until everyone fits neatly into your preconceived ideas about them, every time completely dismissing their own self-knowledge, sparsely giving them any time to request further elaboration, but even on the off chance that they are granted a window of opportunity to request further elaboration, there's a constant refusal to substantiate your claims, as if your word is God and we are only here to be pigeonholed into your heavily biased worldview.
I'm confused as to how the constant desire to prioritize your own understanding of everybody else above their own understanding of themselves, while pressuring them to yield to this approach regardless of how tactless or downright hurtful it may be, is anything short of vilification, especially since it's usually sprinkled in with a few snide remarks, which ironically enough seems to be the sole form of justification that certain people receive for their typings sometimes. I seriously fail to understand how this is any different from maritsa's approach, which quite a few people here admittedly dislike. with that said, I'd probably stop pursuing him with the sole intent of disproving him since it really just ends the same every time and then it almost starts to seem like you're unconsciously seeking that form of vilification, even if I can agree that his approach could use some fine-tuning, and hopefully bertrand can refrain from doing himself a disservice by further polarizing the situation for shits and giggles, since everyone is fairly alright on an individual basis.
really I thought I was pointing out how this is textbook conflict and the way to stop is to walk away, its obvious the more parties self justify the more they provoke the other, even as they say stuff like "its no big deal" or "im not mad" and stuff to that effect. thats the kind of stuff that precisely has the effect of winding up the other, even though its meant to de-escalate. i would have bet money that Sol's response to me, which I followed with my
anyway
Last edited by Bertrand; 04-08-2018 at 10:18 AM.
also beta has opposite values. so a hate and misunderstanding are natural from themoh I see, carry on then
what I do - push Ne and Fi in the peoples heads and they try to protect by rejecting these functions.
owl said that has no type (no Ne), that psyche traits can't be identified correctly by Ne
ooo even rejects IR (Fi) as part of classical theory, strangely says that impressions about psyche traits relate to physiognomy [psychiognomy is bs so this can be unconscious try to prevent the serious usage]
If Socionics will become more popular - the similar will rise from different sides leaded by beta opponents.
As they want Sparta, - where no one cares what you like as a person and what makes you happy. You have only duty, glory and personal pain to gain all that. The more pain - the more respect to you as you press own "weak" nature.
It's like to hit nails by hands, while Socionics is like a hammer. Beta rejects the hammer, it wants pain which makes people "stronger", though with lesser efficiency in building and wounded hands. They'd having a map with good path seems have prefered to go by harder one too, as such was tradition. Anything new in nonvalues regions will need to overcome their irrational resistance.
Jungians knew about duality and possibly Jung too. Jung, with having Se/Ni value and the accent on excessive individualism, could be leaded to understand this by other way. They said like - people feel there good, feel support and it's bad as prevents their personal growth. This is the idea of Sparta - the need of pain for the growth, and rejecting that growth may happen with pleasure and harmony too. And that such way mb more effective. They'd more prefer conflictor as recommended partner! and in MBT seems was recommended to choose them.
What Socionics does - it reduces much pain of bad relations. May to reduce inner painful conflict of people with own supressed functions, reduce the wildness of weak types regions, reduce the IR opposing between people. Socionics may to bring more of pleasure and harmony to people and this unconsciously scares beta. Even when IR will be used and types be reduced, beta should to choose new challenges for such situation - where people would suffer in striving for the next, higher border.
yes thats exactly right
this is why I think its fair to say they reject the idea of a psyche and Jung precisely as soon as it really starts to matter, and it can only be interpreted as a form of fear response
in this sense I really do think Singu is further along and more woke than most our betas and admire him for that, because he's forthright about it
I also think life is suffering whether you seek it out or not, and you can find it under every rock anyway. the point is this path to its conclusion involves just as much self overcoming, because in the final analysis we are all fully human and whether we consciously emphasize that aspect or not it nevertheless is a part of life, so no one is really wrong, because there is pain in living out this sort of idea sufficient to sate any beta, and any delta who truly lives it is going to experience that. so this distinction they draw between themselves is often a matter of words, where upon real experience they converge at the center. you might say personality is just the disjunction in word, although its not like words are of no effect, they guide us and influence our relations and so on, so the psychic distinction becomes real as minds act out those distinctions in the world. but underlying it all is the same stuff, which is the world + humans
people wonder why people fight on forums and then you realize personality is mainly instantiated in words and it starts to make perfect sense people could act out all the drama of differentiation precisely on such a venue. people can't help themselves, its only all slight variations on a theme (people don't have ideas, ideas have people). even if you assimilate Jungian thought it still gets used in service of the ego in some way leading to a similar result. Jung was criticized for this too, because once you realize that, you realize to quote the sith, "peace is a lie" in some sense, and that you cannot do away with enemies unless you do away with yourself. because even in trying to overcome such a thing will earn you enemies because you diverged from their values in the attempt itself. in the final analysis, there will be a competition of ideas over resources, it can't be otherwise. the trick is to simply live in such a way where you are satisfied with what you're doing, the opposite, or failure of that, we might call the tension that defines neurosis. failure by our own standards, etc
it is the relative level of comfort that the above produces that differentiates the base values of the quadra
Last edited by Bertrand; 04-08-2018 at 10:55 AM.
Thanks wasp for trying to calm down the spirits, I thought it was a seemingly civil conversation up to a few posts ago, before Bertrand came to stir the muds. The bias in here is from every part though, since Bertrand has some ongoing beef with me, as I have with Sol. So the triangle that has formed cannot be healthy and live and let live in the slightest, because every part has their own bias about each other and needs to prove themselves.
Despite this shit, that I’m sorry to have stirred in the first place and perpetrated by answering the provocations, I guess the points I initially addressed are still working and the discussion was profitable for further proving them. I didn’t even know there was Augusta’s work for free online, so that too was a nice find.
As Bertrand clearly shows, we can take every definition from “the theory” and twist it until it perfectly fits us, for how we want to feel about it. But this is not objective evaluation, it doesn’t evaluate the object, but manipulates the parameters, their whereabouts, in order for them to fit to all the desired scenarios. This is even the furthest we can get from the theory.
This is less apparent in Sol, who doesn’t have the dialectic skills of Bertrand and would get lost, as most people would, by twisting their own ideas following the direction suggested by the trigger of the day, to create a theory out of everything, like Bertrand does; it’s nevertheless apparent that most of what Sol says is not objective, nor it is the theory of socionics. He similarly manipulates the terms to make them fit his own visions.
I think I’ve shown this by this steamy discussion, and now everyone can work all of this out however they please.
I’m sorry though, I know we all need some kind of guide to show us the light, I just wished though that if this was really needed in a forum community like this, then at least one would pick the best guide possible, because we can choose, we can think for ourselves, we can all get informed and see… who’s right and who’s wrong, without making them just empty terms that work for everything.
fucking for virginity
Killing for peace
They are "consistent" in having the same type and allow to notice the needed IR effects.
> Are these supposed to be grouped by type? I'm not seeing it.
If you are not sure even in own type, you should be lesser sure in your typing skills.
> it seems that I like the ENTP and ESFJ girls the most
You needed to follow the recommendations so your results were meaningful.
Ok I'll give this a shot. I could only watch the english videos and I just commented in my reaction to it, and put in order below from most to least.
IEI- Some of favourates on this list! These videos are fun and entertaining, also most relatable.
EIE - I love the humour, they seem very heartfelt as well.
ILE - pewdiepie is here so this already is a favourite type so far. His videos are always good. I like all the other videos too, some of the youtubers are a little too animated but the topics are interesting to me.
ESI - all of videos are intense and have a lot of energy, which is rare in youtube. Makes the videos interesting.
LSI - what I like most about these videos is the sincerity and clarity of them.
SEI - Nice but dramatic. The backgrounds have good aesthetic. Some of the more interesting video and would like the idea of hanging out with them
SLE - Found these quite strange, didn't quite understand the joke/ what is going on. they're somewhat entertaining. Communication style seems alright
ESE - They talk quite naturally and their sense of humour is clear and on point. They are likeable, and they deserve more views. I actually subscribed to one channel. Also sniperwolf is in this list - she is fairly loud and dramatic which I'm not as tolerant of, but I don't dislike her.
LIE- These videos are good, they give facts that are understandable and interesting, even though they might not be true or of any value to me. Communication and set up is efficient and nice to watch. They lack humour and expression, but they're still alright.
SEE - very expressive and reactive, makes me a little uncomfortable because it feels a little overdone. On the awkward side of things, but not the worst. Oh no I clicked on an ASMR one! She reminds me of an asmr channel I like. Watched a couple others and they are alright.
ILI - As much as like symbolism, I have no idea what they were talking about in these videos. I like how thoughtful it is, but wouldn't want to be in a conversation like this for too long. I totally agree with some of the reasoning, they have a good awareness of different people in society and kind of like the idealism. Find it hard to keep listening though.
LSE - I like that doesn't give a long intro and gets straight to the point. Needs to slow down though, there are so many facts and I can't keep up. The video is aesthetically pleasing which I like, but an entertaining video doesn't need to be. This would be really useful if I actually cared about the topic. I appreciate how informative the person is, however they are very focusing on the facts and details when it could be made more interesting by adding a personal touch, impressions, etc something that will give it more substance. (Guessing this is LSE?)
EII- Informative and thoughtful, can't help but get bored. Want them to get to the point, they ramble and repeat themselves. It's comforting I guess?
SLI- Not a fan of the humour and style. Don't have much of a reaction to these videos to be honest.
LII - They are rambling a lot. They seem nice but they don't grab my attention.
IEE - These videos were...ok? I can't relate very much. They don't seem as genuine or interesting as the others.
Last edited by photon; 05-25-2018 at 12:25 PM.
@photon
there is the key under groups. pls replace the numbers with the types, then your sorting can be commented in more details. or I'll uncover the key here
Last edited by Sol; 05-24-2018 at 11:13 PM.
Whoops I thought it was the other way around, that the keys should be posted without indicating types (I'll remove the numbers)
The order by type was IEI, EIE, ILE, ESI, LSI, SEI, SLE, ESE, LIE, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII, SLI, LII, IEE
@photon
IEI, EIE, ILE, ESI + LSI, SEI, SLE, ESE + LIE, SEE, ILI, LSE + EII, SLI, LII, IEE
7/8 of top types are Ti/Fe - it's your values.
2/4 of top cards and closest 5th is beta, meanwhile bottom 3/4 + closest 12th is delta. You should be beta.
Unlike was recommended you used both sexes - this makes harder to understand which clubs you prefer. If to assume, the _far more_ significant impressions were given by the sex of your interest - mb SLE, lesser possibly IEI.
Ok thanks!
The reason why I watched videos of both genders was because I don't understand Russian and some of the types (such as SEI, EII and ESE) were almost all female. The videos with english speakers were at least.
The language does not important for impressions from nonverbal. I mostly do not think what is told by bloggers to type them.
You may to look the examples of the needed sex again to check which type fits more to your IR impressions. It's lesser useful after you've known what types are the groups, but can be used.
Ok so it's completely non verbal. I watched a few clips again and used the Russian ones instead. These were the types I got, but they aren't in perfect order;
LII, ESI, ILE, LSE, ESE, SLE, IEI, SEI, SLI, LSI, EII, ILI, IEE, SEE, EIE, LIE
Would that alpha SF? The quadras are more mixed this time, maybe impossible to tell.
There was so significant inclination to beta in the 1st blind sorting, so I recommend you to choose between betas still. Think about your possible type among them for some time. Analyse your behavior and sympathies to people of different types IRL. There is no need to hurry. Also I recommend you to do the video interview, as this sorting is more useful as the additional test.
Cool. I picked out the LSI and SLE people right away - intuitively. I was on my cell phone, so I only clicked on any video in any group that caught my interest and looked mostly at demeanor and what I wanted to click on. It was a no-contest win for my dual and activator. When I got home I made a full out list (although I had already picked out two groups I liked, SLE and LSI, which I remembered) and I still agreed with myself. I did not remember any of the other types however, so the list was as good as new, as though I never saw the key at all.
That said: I was going to post it but I can't. The repulsion ones are too mean (I wrote my honest reaction) and I don't want to hurt any feelings. So here's my summary.
Both times, I was most repulsed by Si egos and Deltas.
No offense; y'all are not necessarily repulsive irl
There's something about them that feels 'dirty.' It is probably the Si Earthiness which really does nothing for me. I also found Ne egos kind of... forced. And boring. This is, of course, on QUICK impression. I made a point not to think or to look for too long and just to listen to my gut.
One LIE guy was hot, the hot blond. But not the rest. That guy was probably too 'classically hot' for the list. Most of the other people were not particularly good looking but I went by hunches on personality.
Regarding the LIE: my husband is also a classically hot blond. For a second I compared them, but I told my husband, basically, they're not the same. This is the type of guy I would obsess over, but he would never talk to me - he would be too good for me. Even if he found me hot, he would try to 'fix me' and mold me into something I would never want to be, or be able to be. I told him - I know it, because that's how guys like this act toward me. Funny, it ended up being my supervisor.
I found the LSI's super intriguing, mesmerizing. I love their pop-out eyes and the bubbling emotion underneath the surface cool... they strike me as so sensitive, though others may not see it that way. The SLE's however felt the most real of any type, as if they were impressive and interesting but without trying too hard.
I had a strong reaction to the IEIs... like a "who do you think you're fooling with that cutesy act?" ... this is how I tend to react to my own type IRL, so that was kind of funny. Though I will note, I reacted to the women in that group and barely noticed the men. Once I actually watched videos I didn't mind them, but they struck me as unsexual. EIE struck me as VERY unsexual.
My reaction to IEE: Oh THOSE girls. The cutesy dumb ones who get all the guys. Fuck those bitches. This was not a reaction to anything they said (they very well may be geniuses, for all I know).. it was just a visceral thing.
I am not a visual associative person like Si, where I have conscious associations between this or that.
But I have had some dating experience and best experiences with LSI and SLE, so it could be that I just "knew" unconsciously who I would click with.
This was not ubiquitous - there were people in each group that I didn't like. I'm quite picky. But the ones that stood out were the ones I mentioned.
And yes this is the polite version.
Last edited by Volcana; 07-28-2018 at 05:03 AM.
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